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Fractal KP - Yes or No?


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EDIT: Killproof doesn't have to be an item you can ping and fake. You can comment your suggestions below. For now even an item would be better than nothing as a short term solution.EDIT 2: So the conclusion seems to be that the KP we want are in fact several new titles so we can show off how many times we cleared a CM (instead of getting the old KP back)

Would you like to have it back or not?I mean, there's nothing toxic about wanting to do content with players of a similar skill level.It's borderline harassment when Anet is trying to push experienced players into doing CMs with clueless people.End game content simply has some prerequisites. Why is it ok for Anet to do their hardest to match players of similar skill in PvP, without caring much who I end up doing end game fractals with?Why not encourage training runs? Give currency for failed runs too like in raids or something. Use your imagination instead of inconveniencing others.

There are many, many problems with fractal newbies and there's nothing wrong with refusing to carry them or with refusing to teach them if it is not a training run!Some of the issues with people trying to join CMs:

  • Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation? What's that? If a fractal has DPS checks and a player doesn't know how to dps we have nothing to discuss.
  • Many just want to rush in. At least checking a video to learn about mechanics? Nah.
  • The idea of joining a training run at least once or asking for it in their guilds? Unheard of.
  • Many of them don't even communicate! They just fail again and again without asking why, get kicked and whine about it. Lack of communication is a reportable offense in some MMOs!

In content where one person can end up wiping an entire party there is no room for randomly throwing parties together.KP in its current state (pinging items) is at least a somewhat useful indicator of a person's experience in certain content.Sure, it's not perfect but the pros outweigh the cons imo. An improved system would be even better.I come home from work, have limited time to play and want to do a somewhat clean CM run. It's not okay for a random clueless guy(s) to keep ruining that run for me.Personally I'm lucky to have a static, but if I can't play when they can, I'll be forced to LFG and more often than not encounter some of the issues above! It is not ok to proliferate such situations.

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I voted no, "Kill Proof" as an item that can be pinged isn't something I want in the game. However, a better way of showing experience that doesn't involve chat codes and cannot be faked, is something I'd like to have, while at the same time reducing clutter and inventory space requirements. Like pinging the "KP" from inside the wallet.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:I voted no, "Kill Proof" as an item that can be pinged isn't something I want in the game. However, a better way of showing experience that doesn't involve chat codes and cannot be faked, is something I'd like to have, while at the same time reducing clutter and inventory space requirements. Like pinging the "KP" from inside the wallet.

I believe at least half of us who voted "no" don't want item but some other way of proving experience, but still agree with the need of some kind of kp

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I do think some sort of rough experience measuring method for players of equal skill and experience levels to find each other is valuable.I know some people find the idea of no KP like system appealing, thinking they can get into every group without having put the work in and having the skill for it, but that only holds up until you join some super elitist group (which previously could gate heavily with insane KP requirements) which instantly flames and kicks you after one misstep, which isn't beneficial either for you nor them.

Let people play with whom they want to play with. Otherwise there is just going to be more tension and toxicity and burn out.

I still think the best system would be a multi tiered title giving achievement for things like Fractal CM's and Raids, with the title either changing in colour or name along the lines of WvW Ranks, in order for players to show their experience level.

So the CM Title could either change colours after X clears progressing like Item rarity, or get a prefix or suffix like Sunqua- Veteran, Champion, Legend to easily display a rough range of clears somewhere in the range from 1 (first title) -100 (last title), so gating doesn't get out of hand.

Ideally they could also add something along the lines of being able to link the current Title tier in chat from the Achievement Window, so people aren't forced to display it and for convenience in group making to not have to be in the same map/finding each other to check.

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Trying to remove KP is going to backfire hilariously. Even in the event that Anet removes all forms of KP, people will simply use Skorvald or some other encounter as a trial boss. Don't perform to expectations? Kicked. I don't see how that is any less toxic than simply "you don't have enough kp, sorry."

At the end of the day, KP isn't a gatekeeping tool - it's matchmaking tool. You use it to set expectations. 250KP group? Probably seeking more experienced players. 50KP group? Fine with casual play. Removing this is only going to result in more scenarios where players who have clearly different expectations are matched, resulting in toxicity. Not fun for casuals nor for hardcore players. Regardless, KP always finds a way, even if people have to resort to exotic solutions like killproof.me or trial boss runs as listed above

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We never truly had reliable kp. They could be faked before the patch, titles could be bought and augmentations could be farmed without CMs. Now people can still do that and claim that they exchanged their kp. It doesn't really make a difference. If we want a better version of the kp system its time to make https://killproof.me/ the new standard. It's going to be better that way anyway because that way you can spend your kp on items without losing kp because the website can calculate that (it's already done with legendary armor) and you can't fake anything. It would be amazing if you could attach logs to it, they are more reliable than kp. That way it would be easier for players with low kp but who play on an above average skill level to get into groups matching their own skill level aswell.

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@Blue Topaz.5409 said:It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

While I agree that the wording is way over the top, I also agree that players voice their concerns when changes are implemented which will lead to issues down the road.

@Blue Topaz.5409 said:Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

If this were true, no harsher gating would have been in place this wide spread. Fact of the matter is, putting "exp" in your LFG helps to about the midway point of challenging content, if one considers normal T4 fractals remotely challenging, after that you are relying on good luck of the draw on who joins. Even then, "exp" is a lot more vague than a numeric value.

With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:

  • 1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players
  • 50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.
  • 200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions
  • 300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 Minutes

As someone with a good bit above 300 KP myself, I was free to chose which type of group I wanted to join depending on how I felt. If I wanted to semi afk 99+100CM, I'd sign up as DH or BS in a 100 KP group, or run HFB and carry all mechanics assuring a safe run.

While KP were easily fake able, the person faking would often get the boot and seldom complain, unless the group was merciful and the player was okayish, I've seen a fair share of definitive KP fake players who were barely acceptable but not kicked since they at least did not fail sever mechanics. Now you most definitely will get faking players complain when kicked, and kicks will become far more frequent. Neither of which will benefit the atmosphere.

The 2 main flaws of reasoning here:

  1. the KP ping addressed the issue of players wanting to play with similar skilled players, and while it had flaws, it managed to do so in a majority of cases. This was superior to asking for "exp", because experience and skill in this game are not binary
  2. some players on these boards always assume that gating happens immediately. That is not the case, gating happens to a majority of time due to necessity, especially when it is this wide spread. You never see gating for open world bosses because there is no need for it. Most players don't voluntary gate for shits and giggles, because reducing the viable amount of players which can join means longer group finding, they do so because the gating actually REDUCES time to complete content and/or increases the chance of success DESPITE longer grouping times.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Blue Topaz.5409 said:It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

While I agree that the wording is way over the top, I also agree that players voice their concerns when changes are implemented which will lead to issues down the road.

@Blue Topaz.5409 said:Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

If this were true, no harsher gating would have been in place this wide spread. Fact of the matter is, putting "exp" in your LFG helps to about the midway point of challenging content, if one considers normal T4 fractals remotely challenging, after that you are relying on good luck of the draw on who joins. Even then, "exp" is a lot more vague than a numeric value.

With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:
  • 1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players
  • 50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.
  • 200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions
  • 300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 Minutes

As someone with a good bit above 300 KP myself, I was free to chose which type of group I wanted to join depending on how I felt. If I wanted to semi afk 99+100CM, I'd sign up as DH or BS in a 100 KP group, or run HFB and carry all mechanics assuring a safe run.

While KP were easily fake able, the person faking would often get the boot and seldom complain, unless the group was merciful and the player was okayish, I've seen a fair share of definitive KP fake players who were barely acceptable but not kicked since they at least did not fail sever mechanics. Now you most definitely will get faking players complain when kicked, and kicks will become far more frequent. Neither of which will benefit the atmosphere.

The 2 main flaws of reasoning here:
  1. the KP ping addressed the issue of players wanting to play with similar skilled players, and while it had flaws, it managed to do so in a majority of cases. This was superior to asking for "exp", because experience and skill in this game are not binary
  2. some players on these boards always assume that gating happens immediately. That is not the case, gating happens to a majority of time due to necessity, especially when it is this wide spread. You never see gating for open world bosses because there is no need for it. Most players don't voluntary gate for kitten and giggles, because reducing the viable amount of players which can join means longer group finding, they do so because the gating actually REDUCES time to complete content and/or increases the chance of success DESPITE longer grouping times.

This guy said it all (y)

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@"Blue Topaz.5409" said:It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

Our luck or definition of "good" differ greatly then.Excuse me, but setting me up with kittens in CMs is harassment to me, my static group and many other people I know. It's rage inducing and beyond frustrating.Titles can be used instead of items for KP. People already made that suggestion.

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I voted yes for KP, but I would not like having to ping it, I'm not a fan of having to store junks in my bank (having a whole bank tab just for raid/fractal KP oof...).

I'd saying it should be a number that can be accumulated passively via playing CM, increase by 1 for each run of CM, and it should be displayed on the character avatar. Which the top number should be Agony, the bottom number should be KP. This way, players won't be able to fake KP, and solves the inventory cluttering problem.

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Borderline harassment? I agree no one not skilled should join a t4 cm group. I agree you can set w/e the eff you want as reqs in lfg. I don't agree that 1 percent of the player base needs to whine obsessively because they want to avoid the other less skilled 1 percent of the player base. You basically got an entire update for like 2 percent of the player base that try t4 plus cm. Anyone less skilled in t3 or below are locked out from that content and rewards. Learn whos good or bad and stop whining saying some lame thing as it's harassment because now you can't exclude someone before you even play with them. On top of it the main complainer has a static but this threads are just in case or for others that don't. If you don't want to risk wasting your time don't pug.

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Yes and here's why: It allows experienced groups to group together and inexperienced groups to group together and learn. It shows progress. This is my suggestion:

An achievement that counts your boss kills for fractals and raids with a failsafe protection of trying to fake the achievement either returns an error of (Cannot link from this location) or just shows your achievement anyways. For example, say a player sees a group looking for a role the player has but they want someone who's at least beaten the boss 40 times. The player only has done it 4 times, and tries to fake their achievement. It either doesn't go through, or when they link the chat code (the [&A23461] or whatever it could be) it just returns their achievement with the 4 kills. This technology to stop items being linked already exists and would likely need to be modified. Linking achievements though may be impossible, but it is a dream. Also, imagine being able to compare with guildies/friends how many kills you've got

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

That low elo player with 1kk games, in this case high amount of KP, will not join high KP groups though, because he knows how strong he is, and if he does he will likely get kicked, just like a player without the KP.

So problem once again solved no?

KP are being used twice fold in this game:

  • as judgment of a players successful completions of the content in the hopes that more experience means more skill, obviously flawed but the best we have
  • as an indicator of what level of play is expected. I explained this further up.

There is tons of players with hundreds of KP not making 300 or 400 KP groups. There is a reason for that.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

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Both titles are more than enough in my opinion, you have the clear title to show that you have cleared it at least once and the deathless one that should be more than enough to prove you are skilled enough with the fight. Assuming there are no bugs with these achievements like it happened with Shattered, you don't need anything else.If the person has Dances with Demons which requires his whole party to not dying once in both boss phases why would you need to ask that person for an absurd amount of KPs? That for me is just people being unnecessary and toxic.

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@Friday.7864 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

So, whenever you do something in real life, as soon as you're able to complete/finish, you cant ever get better ? Even when practicing many more hours, you wont ever get faster ? Or be more precise and get better results ? Of course you can become better.

The same applies in game. If you can complete the content, that's a great starting point. But repeating it more times will make you faster. Mistakes will happen less. You'll be more comfortable. Complete the content 100-200 times ? You're getting close to completing it flawlessly. That's the difference between 1-10kp, 50kp and 300kp. Is that a flawless system ? No. Does repeating the content guarantees progress ? Neither. But you'll never convince anyone saying that playing more doesnt make you more skillful.

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@Joraan Adenard.2061 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

So, whenever you do something in real life, as soon as you're able to complete/finish, you cant ever get better ? Even when practicing many more hours, you wont ever get faster ? Or be more precise and get better results ? Of course you can become better.

The same applies in game. If you can complete the content, that's a great starting point. But repeating it more times will make you faster. Mistakes will happen less. You'll be more comfortable. Complete the content 100-200 times ? You're getting close to completing it flawlessly. That's the difference between 1-10kp, 50kp and 300kp. Is that a flawless system ? No. Does repeating the content guarantees progress ? Neither. But you'll never convince anyone saying that playing more doesnt make you more skillful.

there's always a limit to get better, after you master it you don't, if you keep doing the same thing on the learning process you don't get better, but the learning process on the game is finishing it, so finishing it 50 times or 300 times it's all the same, BECAUSE LIKE HE SAID THE CONTENT IS STATIC "You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter. " there's nothing new to learn there, so 50 to 300 is all grinding.

also asking for KP of 1 content to another completely different content just prove alot of things on KP PLAYERS that i can't say there.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

So, whenever you do something in real life, as soon as you're able to complete/finish, you cant ever get better ? Even when practicing many more hours, you wont ever get faster ? Or be more precise and get better results ? Of course you can become better.

The same applies in game. If you can complete the content, that's a great starting point. But repeating it more times will make you faster. Mistakes will happen less. You'll be more comfortable. Complete the content 100-200 times ? You're getting close to completing it flawlessly. That's the difference between 1-10kp, 50kp and 300kp. Is that a flawless system ? No. Does repeating the content guarantees progress ? Neither. But you'll never convince anyone saying that playing more doesnt make you more skillful.

there's always a limit to get better, after you master it you don't, if you keep doing the same thing on the learning process you don't get better, but the learning process on the game is finishing it, so finishing it 50 times or 300 times it's all the same, BECAUSE LIKE HE SAID THE CONTENT IS STATIC "You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter. " there's nothing new to learn there, so 50 to 300 is all grinding

The average KP per clear was 2 pre patch. So clearing the 100 CM 50 times meant already a minimum of 100 KP. Then you add in changes in class setup (say no HFB), tactics used (say portal or fast CC), and your proposed 50 clears become a lot more since I doubt every single players starts with high end clear strats. So even your own given example fails a simple math test.

The content is static, but the different ways to clear it are not. Let's be honest though, we all know your position on this. This isn't about any one convincing the other, and if you truly believe you can learn nothing or improve after clearing content in this game a few times, that explains your often taken position nicely, and the limitations you will never overcome. Suffice to say, no actually experienced player will take you seriously, but here too: no one is here to convince the other, it's all about winning the "argument".

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There should be smth like a performance card instead of kp imo. I think a kp like system should exist for the sake of more enjoyable play for everyone but smth that infinitely scales up like the previous kp is just bad.

I voted no because i dont want an item based kp but some kind of experience gauge should exist.

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KP reduces toxicity in the LFG system, whether people like it or not. There are plenty of training Discord servers / in-game guilds that are more than happy to hold your hand through the CMs. If you don't have the willingness to learn CMs prior to setting a foot in them, I don't think it's content that you should be doing either.

I voted "yes", but with that vote I am simply implying that a way to show someone's expertise (to a certain extent, 300+ KP has not been a guarantee of skilled people for a long time) is important to make groups that don't vary in skill too much.

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@"Friday.7864" said:

  • Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation? What's that? If a fractal has DPS checks and a player doesn't know how to dps we have nothing to discuss.

Yep exactly why I made this threadhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/115004/should-they-add-a-dps-meter#latest...

People say rotation isn't a big deal,

memorizing 26 buttons to do in a rowhttps://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/power%20banner/26 button opener PLUS 18 button loophttps://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/

No big deal, you have this dude who keeps spamming@"Astyrah.4015""2 weapons 5 skills, yada yada"Then here come to a thread where people know what fractals raids and good dps is.Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation?

Yep, thats whole point, we need to lessen down that rotation, so people can, know basics, easier to remember some rotation 4-8 buttons, not 26 button opener and 18 button loop.

Yes we need a DPS meter, as for KP, you don't need it if you have a DPS meter. This is fractal, its easier than strike mission easier than raid, you want people who do dungeons to have KP, megabosses to have KP?

DPS meter.People could care less if you can do a raid, if you do 25K+ dps, sure come on and join us, you better than the someone who knows but who can only maintain 12K.Would be no issue if rotation wasn't 15+Back in CoF p1, the core days. Warrior, press 2 and use berserk utility. Yes thats cheesy, but 26 19 button rotation?!? thats insane, 4-9 buttons is a sweet spot.

DPS Meter, less amount of buttons for rotation, you wont have any headaches with things like Subject 7

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