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Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]


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I see a lot of threads about DPS meter, and some asking if it should be banned.Just like people with balance, asking about it and asking about nerfs.

Nobody talks about buffs instead of nerfs, like BUFF WarriorNobody talks about ADDING instead of banning, like ADDING dps meter.

People using arcdps, the high end casual that is, the ones doing raids and a few of those doing fractals.I'd compare it to Diablo2 maphack, pretty much everybody used it in Diablo2.In GW2 everybody says Anet says nothing on DPS meter, just like Diablo2.

Why not just add it to the game. People going to find someway to look at DPS,just add it to the game and have people get good.

One thing I hate about MMORPG, so much button smashing, have to smash like 20 buttons to do a rotation, I thought GW2 was suppose to be different.Have to smash about 20 buttons just to do efficient dps. What happened to to 1-10 buttons?

Speaking of which,new Expansion = usually means more buttons to smash.

Just add the DPS meter, make it easier to do efficient DPS, I didn't play GW2 to memorize long attack chains just to do raids and fractals.Add DPS meterMake it easier to do DPS

Make it more about (WHICH attack to do and when, not memorize a 20 button smash attack chain

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:Speaking of which,new Expansion = usually means more buttons to smash.

depends on the profession, but usually for GW2 specifically, no, because to put it simply, we don't get gear and level cap increases just new elite specialisations for an expansion. so we still get roughly the same amount of utilities and weapon skills (these are mostly static) for each profession even if they add new elite specs.

a new e-spec usually introduces a new build but it usually doesn't make a profession's DPS rotation (for example) any more complex than it already is compared to it's current viable builds, and if it ever does so, not very significantly at that. a new elementalist elite spec for example will likely have a rotation on par with weaver and if it ever was harder to pull properly, it's not like it's three times longer than what we already have (it's a possibility but very/highly unlikely since we still have the same amount of skills and utilities and cooldowns come into play)

at most we'd get new skills on the profession bar (F2~F5) granted by an elite spec -- but that only adds what? 4 buttons at most (and it's not for all professions, some still stay at F1 and F2 like thief, and for those with an F1 to F5 already would likely stay the same or may get less/get simplified)

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Look at this,https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/Opening, 26 buttons to smash...Did I mention that is an OPENINGAfter the opening, 18 button loop you have to memorize.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/Another professionOPENING, 7 buttons to smash, ok this is manageableNow the loop 19 BUTTONS TO memorize and SMASH

This is where the DPS meter comes into effect, how good are people at smashing 19 to 26 buttons.If you smashing very good, your dps will be good, if you can't memorize, lost track where you are in the loop etc. DPS is bad.

Thats why I'm suggesting make the attack chain smaller, under 10.MEMORIZING a attack loop isn't skill.

If you make attack chains smaller, everyone will be doing what they suppose to be doing, there wont be "this guy is doing 12k less than average, boot him"all because he sucks at MEMORIZING an attack loop.

I say give us DPS meter, people going to use it anyways, people ALREADY use it, its helpful, its a benchmark.Make our attack chains smaller.

Our attack chains werent this long when it was just core.Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

I'd rather use skills based on the situation. a few SKILLS means a lot, not 15 attack chain if you want to maintain the 25K DPS.I'm not enjoying the game, its all about my DPS with these long attack chains we have to memorizing.I'd like to be enjoying the game and not worry about is this my 8th attack in the chain, can i do the full chain or must I improvise

..Also, if we going to keep going with this long attack chains, just give us macros. So people whining about someone not doing enough dps, they can just say "hey, use this macro, thats it, now you do 25k dps like your suppose to do, it will MEMORIZE the 19 button attack chain for you and do it"Attack chains are too long, thats why everyone isn't doing the damage they should be doing. Some people coming back, some people never look at attack chains, they just use the gear, etc.19 attack chain is pretty dang long, not their fault.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

A DPS meter will help with making new builds too. Not everyone has to follow snowcrows or be a pro to go outside the meta/suggested build.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

if you even read my post i'm saying, new expansions wont make any profession gain more skills than it already has. at most you'd get new profession-specials (F1~F5) but that's about it

basically you still have 5 weapons skills (another 5 if your rotation has a weapon swap), and 4 utilities and 1 elite.

if you're an elementalist or an engineer you'll probably have kits or elements to swap around but that's about it. -- elementalist probably wont get more than 4 elements so that's 4 times 5 weapon skills = 20 total weapon skills with which only 5 can be active at any given time: it's been like that for core - it's like that for tempest and it's the same for weaver (it'll be combo elements for weaver but still no more than 5 weapon skills to press at any given time).

other professions don't have kits or elements to change their weapon skills so they rely on weapon swaps so max of 10 skills for them.

all professions have a total of 4 utilities and 1 elite skill. you can't swap these in-combat so they remain static (in quantity) in a build's rotation


we're not like FF14 or SWTOR where you need to have 2 to 3 hotbars active to fill with skills your rotation/build uses

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@Astyrah.4015 said:

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

if you even read my post i'm saying, it wont make any profession gain more skills than it already has. at most you'd get new profession-specials (F1~F5) but that's about it

basically you still have 5 weapons skills (another 5 if your rotation has a weapon swap), and 4 utilities and 1 elite.

if you're an elementalist or an engineer you'll probably have kits or elements to swap around but that's about it. -- elementalist probably wont get more than 4 elements so that's 4 times 5 weapon skills = 20 weapon skills, it's been like that for core - it's like that for tempest and it's the same for weaver.

other professions don't have kits or elements to change their weapon skills so they rely on weapon swaps so max of 10 skills for them.

all professions have a total of 4 utilities and 1 elite skill. you can't swap these in-combat so they remain static (in quantity) in a build's rotation

Isn't as simple as you make it.They starting to make it where you enter some state and all sudden your skills change.

Back then, warrior, press 2 that's it besides every now and then use utility. As long as your pressing 2 your doing just as good of a job as everyone else.Now thats a little not much, I'd say the sweet spot is 4-8 button attack chains.19, 26 different buttons for an opening, etc. Thats too much.

I wouldn't be surprised if next expansion had super saiyan mode, you have all your normal stuff, then you change state like I mentioned above. Now all sudden you have whole new set of skills.

More buttons to smash.Even longer attack loop.

Equals = this ele doing 12k dps, this other ele doing 38k.Dps meter I think is issue, get rid of it, yada yada.Nothing to do with DPS meter, its about this long attack chain.

Yes, I think we should have a meter, so we can tell how efficient we are and helps with making builds other than meta/suggested,but if people want it gone just because they don't want people to know they bad,they going to be bad regardless,fix the long attack loops, make it shorter, should be 4-8 button loop. 26, 19+ is overkill.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/10 button opener25 button smashing loop

seems like attack loop is 18 - 26 buttons to smash to complete a loop.average joes casuals going to remember 18-26 buttons? Ya I don't think so either.They could play the game for months and still struggle to remember 18-26 combo loops.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:Isn't as simple as you make it.They starting to make it where you enter some state and all sudden your skills change.

this mostly applies to elementalist and engineer like i said.

revenant is something like this with legend swapping but you're only limited to 2 legends at any given time, so your utilities are still limited in number and remain the same as it was whether it's herald, renegade or core revenant.

@uberkingkong.8041 said:Back then, warrior, press 2 that's it besides every now and then use utility. As long as your pressing 2 your doing just as good of a job as everyone else.Now thats a little not much, I'd say the sweet spot is 4-8 button attack chains.19, 26 different buttons for an opening, etc. Thats too much.

what i'm saying is those 19 or 26 buttons to press wont increase anymore than it already is (and if it ever does change, it wont be much, if your build uses 20 skill rotation and the new elite spec brings you a 25 skill rotation, it wont be much of a difference to you) --- because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time.

and besides most of those rotations like the one you linked: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/ involve repeating a skill once it comes off of cooldown it's not like you have 19 individual buttons to press and bind on your keyboard. that loop rotation only has 9 unique buttons to press (the 1-2-3 combo counts as 1 button, same for it's weapon swap at the end of the rotation) --- i don't see where the issue is... you just repeat based on priority

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

Those that can use a DPS meter to better themselves can already use ArcDPS to do so. Those that don't like DPS meters, won't magically like an in-game/official meter and use it to get better at the game.

But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

You are right, for above average players rotations need to be streamlined. But, other than skill balancing to help reduce reliance on rotations, there a few ways to help with this problem. All ways that are widely used in other mmorpgs

For example, they can allow players to watch cooldowns of skills not visible on the skillbar. In this game you don't only have to remember which skill to use from those you can see, but you must also remember the cooldowns of your weapon swap skills and all other transform skills, like Engineer kits and Elementalist conjures. Allowing players some interface ability to "slot" skills to have their cooldown always visible is a great way to help rotations. That way you have much less skills to worry about and remember at all times, as all of them are visible in front of you. In all mmorpgs out there (that I've played) you can always see ALL your cooldowns, Anet decided to hide them to streamline the UI, but over years this backfired

Another way is to highlight skills that are about to do the maximum damage, for example just like there is a red marker on skills out of range, they can add a green marker for skills that will do the most damage (tooltip/single target damage). in other mmorpgs you can use addons that tell you which skill is the next best to use, so even players that don't like rotations or don't have muscle memory can play the game and stay "competitive"

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Problem with you people is you always think negative.You assume"Those that don't like DPS meters, won't magically like an in-game/official meter and use it to get better at the game."" Based on past performance, the ANet meter would be decidedly inferior to Arc and would be heavily monetized"You think people incapable of bettering themselvesYou think anet would monetize it

Whats wrong with you, always thinking negative.

"because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time."You thinking negative too broMesmer F1-F4 abilitiesOther classes have F abilities toosome of them they change form and its even more

Why you being so negative bro

It's like yall come here just to think about nerfing, removing, and negativeJust like my PvP thread, none of them ever heard about BUFF because they all thinking negative and nerfing to solve balance.

DPS meter worse than arc dps, I don't think so, it will be more simpler, all you need is average, they already provide a combat tab.Ya'll should try being positive for a chance.idk where you got the idea they would monetize this, thats too much negative thinking.

...hmm, maybe a speedometer,"NO! they would monetize that!"smh

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:Problem with you people is you always think negative.Whats wrong with you, always thinking negative.

the problem is you're not reading and understanding well what we all say.

@uberkingkong.8041 said:"because we have a limit of 5 weapon skills (and another 5 for weapon swap) 4 utilities and 1 elite skill at a given time."You thinking negative too broMesmer F1-F4 abilitiesOther classes have F abilities toosome of them they change form and its even more

and i did mention about F abilities too if you just read my posts. i mentioned they can change and that for some classes they can still remain the same (like how thief has always had just F1 and F2). but yeah you don't read.

and for the record i wasnt even being negative and no one here talked about nerfing or removing. in fact i was being positive by saying: a new expansion would not make a profession any more complicated to play than it already is. -- i don't know how you've missed that all this time. lol

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@"uberkingkong.8041" said:Look at this,https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/Opening, 26 buttons to smash...Did I mention that is an OPENINGAfter the opening, 18 button loop you have to memorize.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/Another professionOPENING, 7 buttons to smash, ok this is manageableNow the loop 19 BUTTONS TO memorize and SMASH

This is where the DPS meter comes into effect, how good are people at smashing 19 to 26 buttons.If you smashing very good, your dps will be good, if you can't memorize, lost track where you are in the loop etc. DPS is bad.

Thats why I'm suggesting make the attack chain smaller, under 10.MEMORIZING a attack loop isn't skill.

If you make attack chains smaller, everyone will be doing what they suppose to be doing, there wont be "this guy is doing 12k less than average, boot him"all because he sucks at MEMORIZING an attack loop.

I say give us DPS meter, people going to use it anyways, people ALREADY use it, its helpful, its a benchmark.Make our attack chains smaller.

Our attack chains werent this long when it was just core.Like I said new expansions usually brings more skills, and longer attack chains, this is a bad thing if you ask me.I'm all for new skills, but I don't want to memorize 15+ chain.

I'd rather use skills based on the situation. a few SKILLS means a lot, not 15 attack chain if you want to maintain the 25K DPS.I'm not enjoying the game, its all about my DPS with these long attack chains we have to memorizing.I'd like to be enjoying the game and not worry about is this my 8th attack in the chain, can i do the full chain or must I improvise

..Also, if we going to keep going with this long attack chains, just give us macros. So people whining about someone not doing enough dps, they can just say "hey, use this macro, thats it, now you do 25k dps like your suppose to do, it will MEMORIZE the 19 button attack chain for you and do it"Attack chains are too long, thats why everyone isn't doing the damage they should be doing. Some people coming back, some people never look at attack chains, they just use the gear, etc.19 attack chain is pretty dang long, not their fault.

The other problem is ping. I have a friend in the USA who can do more damage than me because his much lower ping means he can get his full rotation in during the time requirement, whereas I can't. Theoretically, we both should be able to do it - it's just he's 200 ms quicker than mine so he should finish his rotation 200ms earlier all things being equal - but it doesn't seem to be working that way. This was after spending two hours with him doing rotations on the stationary practice golem. This was chronomancer practice using multiple skills inside continuum split. We were using the exact same builds - his gear was better than mine, but that doesn't affect skill timing.

Now, bring movement into the equation, and it's horrible.

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Ping?Well make an ingame DPS meter.Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

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ArenaNet should shut down the 3rd party meters and create their own as (a free) part of the game. It should only monitor your own performance, and individual players should decide whether or not to share the information they get from said meter with their squad/party. Integrating this feature would be QoL for those who care about DPS, and the rest of us could ignore it at our leisure.

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@AgentMoore.9453 said:ArenaNet should shut down the 3rd party meters and create their own as (a free) part of the game

This would allow them to more firmly police the GW2.exe system environment with no exceptions. Naive players don't understand that the use of ARCDPS risks their account to the whims of the ARCDPS support group.

( I still think DPS meters let people more easily tune their macro playback. )

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Personal DPS meters are FUN! They allow you to see numbers and feel powerful. Depending on the gear and rotations you can be attempting and it may even feel like you are doing the same damage but there is a lot of difference, if you have a meter you can enjoy actually seeing your numbers and finding out how to improve. I find it a huge addition and very fun to try and improve ones own gameplay and experience. Thank goodness for the training golem in Aerodrome.

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@"robertthebard.8150" said:A DPS meter isn't going to change "button mashing". It's going to teach you rotations, which is just "which order to mash the buttons".

Yep, it helps people get better at knowing what to press next.Button smashing is what is ruining the enjoyment of the game though, too much focus on rotation rather than looking up at the game and enjoying it.If you a a really good player yes its easy, someone who just came back and played for a few weeks, not so much.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

Whats wrong with public DPS meter?People are helpful too you know, don't always have to look at it like "they will make fun of you"..."they will help you get better" happens too.

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@"uberkingkong.8041" said:Ping?Well make an ingame DPS meter.Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

I'm not sure why you apparently directed this at me. I'm not sure why you think this is a solution to ping problems, for example in phases where a boss goes invuln, I get that information about 150ms after everyone else, and same when the boss comes off invuln.

Add in boss dynamics where aoes, that are randomly placed, appear on the floor with a 500ms warning.

This all affects the ability to get off rotations that require speed between skills. And the rotations are the reason for higher DPS.

So coming back to your earlier point about making the rotations shorter, yes that should help those of us with higher ping to some degree. However, even with a shorter rotation, we still get some problems: skills flashing (ah, the joy of lag spikes), and the wonderful experience of getting a firebrand book to open, only for it to immediately close even though we only hit the function/clicked the button once.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

Again the information is technically public and being broadcast to everyone all the time. If they added a DPS meter as a native part of the game it's naive to think it wouldn't be public since that's the current status quo.

The data doesn't belong to you nor is it private.

You currently can't opt out of sharing since it's how the game works.

If they did go with this method of share/no share all the people who are getting kicked from groups due to their lower performance aren't suddenly going to start being allowed into groups...you think the group's they are getting kicked from now / most groups wouldn't run "DPS meter share on" style groups?

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@Hesione.9412 said:

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:Ping?Well make an ingame DPS meter.Have a command that shares your DPS and its colored differently so people know you aint lying.Maybe some allow DPS share checkbox, let others know your DPS and people type the command themselves and sees other peoples DPS.

Now people far away you know there DPS, it now checks other people data from their client so ping is no longer an issue.They already have a combat log, so I don't want to hear "it would be a lot of work".Arcdps person gets it up in no time. he has a real job too.GW2 devs, they work on this game, doing it is what they do, they have access to everything they need too.

If arcdps guy can get it done on his offtime quickly, an Anet dev can even quicker get it done.

I'm not sure why you apparently directed this at me. I'm not sure why you think this is a solution to ping problems, for example in phases where a boss goes invuln, I get that information about 150ms after everyone else, and same when the boss comes off invuln.

Add in boss dynamics where aoes, that are randomly placed, appear on the floor with a 500ms warning.

This all affects the ability to get off rotations that require speed between skills. And the rotations are the reason for higher DPS.

So coming back to your earlier point about making the rotations shorter, yes that should help those of us with higher ping to some degree. However, even with a shorter rotation, we still get some problems: skills flashing (ah, the joy of lag spikes), and the wonderful experience of getting a firebrand book to open, only for it to immediately close
even though we only hit the function/clicked the button once
.

Your getting someone else's data from someone else.Everyone has DPS meter,everyone turned it on in the group.It's syncing up

No more, you track someone else on your client.Everyone tracks themselves, and its sent to the shared dps meter field.If player x tracking his own dps and it says 23kYou get see 23k.No more, your client lagged out, player x has 16k dps, but its really 23k

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Adding a personal DPS meter that only the player can see would be a good thing.

Adding a public DPS meter so everyone could always see everyone, would be a toxic thing.

Again the information is technically public and being broadcast to everyone all the time. If they added a DPS meter as a native part of the game it's naive to think it wouldn't be public since that's the current status quo.

The data doesn't belong to you nor is it private.

You currently can't opt out of sharing since it's how the game works.

If they did go with this method of share/no share all the people who are getting kicked from groups due to their lower performance aren't suddenly going to start being allowed into groups...you think the group's they are getting kicked from now / most groups wouldn't run "DPS meter share on" style groups?

Yes it should be shared, nothing toxic about it.You do bad, someone will give you tips and you become a better player.You don't listen and still bad dps, not there fault you getting kicked. You don't listen, this is tough content, you need to get certain dps so everyone can succeed.

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