Condi herald is oppressive; Powerbombardment Renegade is broken

[Arheundel.6451]

This is a small list of currently overtuned specs that require more than one pass : too much dmg, too much sustain compared to the rest . Small scale gameplay is dominated by revs, engis....way too much sustain for the level of dmg they can apply.

Renegade Power Bombardment

Condi Herald

Can only hope for future balance changes at this point......

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

just bring 3 people including one cleanser, roamers cannot do sh*t about that. i only play zergbuilds, so i'd never engage regular 1v1 without options to opt out. you win, if u don't play their game, but force them to play your game, kinda

[ASP.8093]

The Power Renegade video mostly demonstrates a very moderate amount of damage and sustain, imo.

[Dawdler.8521]

Stop posting CG fakes, we've had these discussions before and according to everyone that want to delete downstate what you're supposedly doing in the videos is impossible. You cant win outnumbered. It just doesnt exist.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@ASP.8093 said:The Power Renegade video mostly demonstrates a very moderate amount of damage and sustain, imo.

I was gonna say this. Dude can't half kite tho haha.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Like others have already said. Nothing sticks out in the first video, it looks pretty balanced to me and is just your everyday decent roamer dunking on random people on zerg builds who have drifted off tag (capping things on the way, running back to fights etc.).

Condi Rev, like several other condi builds, was simply a bit overlooked during the spring nerfs to both power and condi. It should see more adjustments, not necessarily because it is super oppressive but because it's a bit too powerful on its skill floor, on low-effort or as a pub-stomper. "Just bring a proper build/comp with cleanses" is a rather poor counter argument to how too much damage comes out of a singular skill or two in a game mode that is diverse and not populated only by decently comped- or decently competent roamers. There's nothing wrong with a roaming build out-ganking an unwilling and separated zergling build but it shouldn't be as easy as landing a single skill or two.

[Clownmug.8357]

You think full power renegade is broken? Better hope you don't meet a hybrid one with added condi pressure and tons more health, armor, healing.

[Junkpile.7439]

Never fight against reve or holosmith/scrapper. Zerg them down, throw some sieges and ask them how they manage die while playing totally broken specs. B)

[jpsssss.7530]

Just get some repeatable cleanses or resistance to deal with condi herald. Condi herald also just loses to most variants of necro. Fire Weaver is your best choice. Power renegade is good.... If you stand in circles. Even then Ranger, DE, and DH are way worse on the burst damage. And as above, if you think that's high damage on Renegade, wait til you see a hybrid one...

[Aeolus.3615]

@Junkpile.7439 said:Never fight against reve or holosmith/scrapper. Zerg them down, throw some sieges and ask them how they manage die while playing totally broken specs.

Meanwhile rev condi its weaker, since they also balanced healing, somehow i cant count, i even dont know if i ever beated a holo ~.~ no matter when i stop dodge its a 2-3 sec fight and ill go down.

@Clownmug.8357 its opressive but it lacks the cndi punch(felt even plaguedocters was better than power :), hybrid ones have both sides .. mine is hybrid actually, before the big hammer balance patch marshal stats, plaguedoctors were quite deadly and sustainable.

[ArchonWing.9480]

I agree, if only to reduce roaming videos with annoying music. That should be nerfed.

[Aeolus.3615]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:I agree, if only to reduce roaming videos with annoying music. That should be nerfed.

To much weeb music?

[Oakendale.2849]

Here is a crazy thought.

WvW balance is centered around large group play.

Not roamingNot small scale

So your entire complaint is a non factor tbh.

[ASP.8093]

@"Azreell.1568" said:Here is a crazy thought.

WvW balance is centered around large group play.

Not roamingNot small scale

So your entire complaint is a non factor tbh.

I mean, it should be all those things. WvW is about big dramatic fights but it's also random 5-on-5s and 3-on-1s and whatnot. The camps and monuments and sentries are designed specifically to create a cycle of individual and small-group play.

And if you watch the videos you'll see there's actually a bunch of camp and tower stuff there, these aren't just people fighting for no reason in the boonies.

That doesn't mean WvW balance needs to be tuned to give everyone a "fair dueling build" or whatever: part of the open and variable nature of the game mode is that every individual matchup doesn't have to be 50-50. But, no, you really can't say "Oh, it's small scale, ignore it!" -- that's, like, half the game mode.

[Junkpile.7439]

@Azreell.1568 said:Here is a crazy thought.

WvW balance is centered around large group play.

Not roamingNot small scale

So your entire complaint is a non factor tbh.

Kind of stupid way to balance game mode when almost nobody play like that.

[KrHome.1920]

I don't see anything broken in these videos - just some buttonmashing encounters that fail to land the final hit for several minutes.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Azreell.1568 said:Here is a crazy thought.

WvW balance is centered around large group play.

Not roamingNot small scale

So your entire complaint is a non factor tbh.

Kind of stupid way to balance game mode when almost nobody play like that.

Same could be said for PvP and Raids.

[Xca.9721]

Condi Rev got hard nerfed in July balance patch to the point where noone plays it anymore in PvP. The video you shared is from April, which means it shows an "op" version of condi rev that doesn´t exist anymore.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Xca.9721" said:Condi Rev got hard nerfed in July balance patch to the point where noone plays it anymore in PvP. The video you shared is from April, which means it shows an "op" version of condi rev that doesn´t exist anymore.

The nerfs were applied only in PvP for some reason

[Buran.3796]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:

The nerfs were applied only in PvP for some reason

From the patch of July 7 2020:

• Demonic Resistance: Reduced damage reduction from 20% to 10% in PvP and WvW.
• Fiendish Tenacity: Reduced base heal from 197 to 132 in PvP and WvW.
• Crystal Hibernation: Reduced pulse base healing from 620 to 496 in PvP and WvW.
• Spirit Boon: Reduced protection duration when invoking Glint from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Shining Aspects: Reduced base heal from 444 to 355 in PvP and WvW.
• Facet of Chaos: Reduced protection duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/109335/game-update-notes-july-7-2020

For some reason you didn't even bother to check your claimed "facts".

[Obtena.7952]

@ASP.8093 said:

@Azreell.1568 said:Here is a crazy thought.

WvW balance is centered around large group play.

Not roamingNot small scale

So your entire complaint is a non factor tbh.

I mean, it should be all those things.

It can't be. There is no way for the game to differentiate if people are playing as zerg, small scale or roaming ... so there just isn't any way Anet can balance for ALL those situations.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:

The nerfs were applied only in PvP for some reason

From the patch of July 7 2020:

• Demonic Resistance: Reduced damage reduction from 20% to 10% in PvP and WvW.
• Fiendish Tenacity: Reduced base heal from 197 to 132 in PvP and WvW.
• Crystal Hibernation: Reduced pulse base healing from 620 to 496 in PvP and WvW.
• Spirit Boon: Reduced protection duration when invoking Glint from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Shining Aspects: Reduced base heal from 444 to 355 in PvP and WvW.
• Facet of Chaos: Reduced protection duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/109335/game-update-notes-july-7-2020

For some reason you didn't even bother to check your claimed "facts".

You must be referring to these "facts" am I right?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Searing_Fissurehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echoing_Eruptionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Absorptionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Banish_Enchantmenthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_to_Anguishhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Embrace_the_Darknesshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Defiance

Add to this...trailblazer/dire/torment runes...and you have a winner...

PS they gutted fire weaver while being less resilient, less mobile and ...less able to withstand 2-3 opponents at time and with no ability to win teamfight or even used to win monthly.....with 3 different variations of the same concept.....hallo French Worms

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Xca.9721" said:Condi Rev got hard nerfed in July balance patch to the point where noone plays it anymore in PvP. The video you shared is from April, which means it shows an "op" version of condi rev that doesn´t exist anymore.

This is what hard nerfs tend to look like:

-Mist Form: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.-Obsidian Flesh: Increased cooldown from 50 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

Just saying.....that playing a class like revenant or guardian,engineer or thief...you never get to experience what hard nerf really looks like. Receiving a hard nerf means that the nerfed skill/utility would be better off being deleted.....a 5-10% slap on the wrist is merely a fix...let alone being considered a hard nerf...that's laughable

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-02-25#Utility

Check ele.....stunbreak CD increased from 40s to 75s CD, all arcane utilities do as much dmg as a full cleric thief with his dagger.....that's the nature of Hard nerfs....

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I had a draft I was working on for why Condi Herald is largely fine (Torment Runes are potentially OP though and make up a huge amount of condi Herald's overall sustain) and then I decided to watch the video you posted for context.

Literally the first encounter is 1 condi herald + a Tower Lord + guards fighting 3 people (including a Firebrand) that have no idea what they're doing, aren't cleansing, aren't kiting effectively and largely just facetanking all of the guard damage + the torment. This would have been the same result with almost any other AoE class since the 3 people were utterly bad.

Second encounter is a DH + Condi Herald vs. 1 FB Healer + 1 core Hammer Rev +1 Jalis/Glint Power Rev. The 3 fighting the DH and cHerald should have gone after the DH first, but the 3 didn't focus a target and thus wasted a lot of their damage potential. Also it's super obvious if you watch that both Power Revs are fairly bad overall and are being carried by their mediocre FB healer. And ofc once the FB healer is dead then so are the revs, since power rev is notoriously extremely weak to condi classes. The condi herald isn't even doing a ton of damage during the majority of the encounter, but just putting out consistent pressure while they chip away at the FB. Not sure what this clip is supposed to show, besides extremely bad play (honestly on all sides). And look at the ranks, all bronze or silver WvWers, likely with unoptimized builds for fighting condi.

Honestly after those two clips there's no need to watch the whole 30+ minutes and I stopped there (not worth the time). If those are the two clips that are supposed to "hook you" into watching the rest and "prove" how OP Condi Herald is, then they do an extremely poor job of making me want to watch more and they don't show anything other than less skilled players getting obliterated by condi with unoptimized builds, per usual, alongside mediocre gameplay.

And this is a main point I want to make, that WvW offers insane amounts of customization to deal with conditions and condition builds (especially compared to pvp). The VAST majority of players don't utilize it AT ALL and then complain when they lose to a condi build. And most WvW players are not great players, full stop, period. I used to 1v4 with Roaming Hammer Herald. Does this make Hammer Herald "oppressive" in roaming? Absolutely not. As for condi Herald, against any build that can cleanse consistently and can kite, the matchup is already not in the condi herald's favor and will go on for ages or until one of the players makes a major mistake. Thief, Mesmer, Ranger, Warrior, Elementalist, and Necro (and ofc the mirror matchup for Rev) all have dueling/roaming builds that can either stalemate condi Herald or outright beat it and are just as survivable (in some cases with way more in combat utility and escapability like Stealth/ground targeted teleports, etc. than Condi Herald). I've personally seen all of the above classes either stalemate me or beat me, with skillful play on both sides. Since 7 of the 9 classes have viable ways of dealing with Condi Herald, why is this a problem?? The problem really just comes down to lack of optimization and player skill, in the vast majority of cases.

[Xca.9721]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Xca.9721" said:Condi Rev got hard nerfed in July balance patch to the point where noone plays it anymore in PvP. The video you shared is from April, which means it shows an "op" version of condi rev that doesn´t exist anymore.

This is what

hard nerfs

tend to look like:

-Mist Form: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.-Obsidian Flesh: Increased cooldown from 50 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

Just saying.....that playing a class like revenant or guardian,engineer or thief...you never get to experience what

hard nerf

really looks like. Receiving a hard nerf means that the nerfed skill/utility would be better off being deleted.....a 5-10% slap on the wrist is merely a fix...let alone being considered a hard nerf...that's laughable

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-02-25#Utility

Check ele.....stunbreak CD increased from 40s to 75s CD, all arcane utilities do as much dmg as a full cleric thief with his dagger.....that's the nature of Hard nerfs....

You realize that every class got hard nerfed in that patch and not just ele?