Jack Swiftclaw.9076 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 From what I understand the flame legion has not 100 percent turned over a new leaf. Efran is said to be the leader of a splinter group of the Flame not the whole legion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Right now we have Malice left of the original 4 leaders at launch. I do think that Crecia as Bangars second and Mia as Smolders second will take control. Bangar is a slave to a dragon now as is Ryland. I'm foreseeing a change for the char. The existence of the Olmakhan, splinter of Flame, the formation of the Frost and Dominon,and the sedition of blood will be a major culture shift. I'm very curious to see where we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:From what I understand the flame legion has not 100 percent turned over a new leaf. Efran is said to be the leader of a splinter group of the Flame not the whole legion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.The way No Quarter makes it sound is that the group following Efram is the greater majority of Flame ever since the Molten Alliance situation (where the majority of Flame leaders supported that alliance instead), and now those who aren't following Efram have put in with the Dominion.Though there might be small pockets here and there that are still independent, these seem to be overall miniscule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Hannelore.8153" said:Regarding the Nightmare Court, while they're still around I do believe all the leaders are dead. Between Personal Story, Twilight Arbor, and Heart of Thorns they lose pretty much everyone in a position of power. Plus their numbers were already very low compared to other Sylvari since they were just an offshoot, so I imagine the events of the HoT thinned out their ranks significantly.They have at least one duchess, Chrysanthea, which is the highest non-de facto leader position (which is Grand Duchess). So they're not entirely out of leaders.Not to mention the events will have changed the minds of alot of remaining Nightmare Court about distancing theirselves from the Dream, since it would've given them a major existential crisis. Hardship has a way of draining the evil from people.This would be very interesting to see, because the Nightmare Court were divided into two philosophical beliefs - the original idea of "becoming true sylvari" and the newer idea of serving and spreading the Nightmare. I imagine most who followed the original philosophy (those who's minds didn't get warped by the Nightmare) would have turned Mordrem Guard like Stavemaster Adryn.I'm not sure about that. The original philosophy wasn't "become true sylvari" so much as "let the sylvari make their own choices free from outside interference". As Faolain said before the Vinetooth got her, having Mordremoth's wishes forced upon them would be just as bad as Ventari's. If anything, I'd say that those that were fanatical followers of the Nightmare might be the more susceptible of the two philosophies, since they are open to outside influence through the Nightmare, and there's evidence that Mordremoth might have had some tendrils in the Nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazer.2157 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I think the proper title should be held by Queen Jennah. The Charr are not different from the humans now. We already have a capable leader for the humans. She would do well to lead the Charr and solve the problems in Ascalon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnowulf.7403 Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 I definitely agree that the United Legions vs. the Dominion was about progressives vs. traditionalists. Well, before the Dominion was co-opted by Jormag as the Frost Legion. All traditionalists are jerks was the order of the day under Bangar, I think that it's about recognising which aspects of charr culture are progressive or harmful, respectively. What I find odd is that anyone would believe that the United Legions (the aforementioned progressives) would uphold the tradition of imperatorship. There's a lore perspective that everything written is objective truth and should remain that way forever, I personally find this a rigid way of thinking that's in opposition to the subjective nature of the lore that ArenaNet's writing team seems to be a proponent of. They prefer lore being told from perspectives with there being no absolute, undeniable, or objective truth. A world is an evolving place and there would be no reason for a faction of progressives to stick with the problematic traditions they're actually fighting against. To wit, there's no believable reason why Crecia couldn't earn imperatorship, which she might already have. Imperatorship is going to be in the opniion of the people as they are now, not as they were historically. Tyria has always been a living world.I'm also inclined to believe that for the foreseeable future, the United Legions will opt for a council. So much of this story is about the charr moving forward and claiming their own identity contrary to whatever others would have of them, this also means fully leaving behind Guild Wars 1 and burning those particular bridges for good. Hostility for the charr needs to be left behind in teh past, where it belongs. I mean, that there's a "Make Ascalon Great Again" thread on the front page of the lore forum rihgt now is fairly telling of what kind of pernicious perspectives have taken root in the community. Whatever happened in Guild Wars 1 is not the fault of either Guild Wars 2 players or the contemporary charr as they stand now. This whole war is about making a point that the past is done with, that it should be left there, and the world is simply going to move on with or without those ready to accept the march of time.So Crecia for Blood, Mia for Iron, Effram for Flame, and Malice for Ash (of course). Four legions standing together as the United Legions from here on out, no more pointless in-fighting as the charr try to forge a better future together, with the help of the other races—including the humans, like that or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 Rytlock, Im 100% thats how they will phase him out of the story and have him leave the team. Similar to how rox did; While crecia likely will go with us to escape after rylands death and to "find herself" while traveling. Rytlock did so while working with us, perhaps crecia will become our rytlock/rox replacement since both of them likely wont be coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 Rytlock is too much "adventurous guy" to become emperor.Is clear they setting up Efram as role of a "unificator". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 I think Crecia is being set up to be the Khan Ur. She seems to be in charge and making the big decisions in this campaign. There will be major reorganization after the CW.If Rytlock survives, he will retire.If Ryland survives, he will join Dragon's Watch.I think Braham will also be leaving Dragon's Watch.Marjory and Kasmeer seem to already be gone. However Marjory may be interested in going to Cantha.Will Taimi be saved? There seems to be no progress on that story since her announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Whitemoon.6173 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 what about if the proposed leaders here come togethers and together break and destroy the Claw of the Khan-Ur, no united legions, they are each their own, they can work together, but stay their own legion seperated from the rest, the United Legions will only show up again if their is a common thread to all the charr, bit like United Nations on our little earthly planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapgrind.2197 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 I hope there'll be no Khan-Ur, because independent rivaling nations (Legions) is one of the things that makes Charr fun and interesting for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telwyn.1630 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Tyson.5160" said:Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.Actually a large portion of charr lands are repopulate now, and I do believe the charr were almost wiped out. Now the charr are at risk of dying off in a sense, but the won't their population just took a big hit,so hard that if the charr he and go too war again again st say the humans of Ascalon in the fields of ruin the Charr will lose. WIgh the charr population is ramen it means the charr hold over the former lands bowling too the kingdom of Ascalon is gone. The don't have the numbers too hold what rug he had also the lands east of the blaze ridge mountains have no charr living in them if any at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynder.2509 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 How about the charr player character ?♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 @Telwyn.1630 said:@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Tyson.5160" said:Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.Actually a large portion of charr lands are repopulate now, and I do believe the charr were almost wiped out. Now the charr are at risk of dying off in a sense, but the won't their population just took a big hit,so hard that if the charr he and go too war again again st say the humans of Ascalon in the fields of ruin the Charr will lose. WIgh the charr population is ramen it means the charr hold over the former lands bowling too the kingdom of Ascalon is gone. The don't have the numbers too hold what rug he had also the lands east of the blaze ridge mountains have no charr living in them if any at all.cough * Maybe go over what you wrote one more time, for....clarities sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Swiftclaw.9076 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 I feel like there has always been tension. Bangor lives the old school char above all. In Visions of Steel he talked about a grand Char Empire spanning all of Tyria and even invading Cantha. Bangor was setting himself up as Khan-ur. He had it set in his mind. I think when we end him and the Dominon and Frost Legions we will have a clear leader of the Char. Who is that. I'm betting on a char the new imparoriters Respect and listen to. I'm pretty sure it's going to be Rytlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kossage.9072 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 While I could see a Khan-Ur rising for multiple reasons, even supported by Smodur's correspondence suggesting such given the current political climate, it would be a truly difficult undertaking while most legions are shaken by defections from their ranks and being torn about their alliances with other races and the superior position Bangar's propaganda had offered to the charr who had seen themselves as weakened in their current "peaceful" coexistence with other races.If a Khan-Ur is to ever truly rise and if the candidate(s) stick to the old rules rather than abolishing them, that individual needs to be able to prove being a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, be a charismatic enough individual to win all four legions behind them, perform a great military feat to prove their worth as a cunning leader, and also be ferocious enough to defend their throne from would-be usurpers (that last bit in particular has led to the downfall of many would-be Khan-Urs as all post-Khan-Ur ascendants were ultimately overthrown within a few years of their rule).Smodur has this to say about the future of the charr, and he is right as we have seen human-hating views being spread among United Legions charr if we listen to the ambient dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast.That is the front line of a larger war, Tribune. Treachery runs deep throughout the legions, throughout Tyria, and leaving a single opening anywhere will allow Bangar's influence to take root.Even when I kill Bangar, it won't end the conflict. He showed the charr something they've wanted for a long time: power. No treaties, no alliances—just power, like in the old days.He told them the world I helped make turned us into weaklings. Into less than charr. I see the argument: one look at Tribune Brimstone and we all see the dangers of what happens when you spend too much time away from the warband.That's why the real war will only begin after Bangar's gone. We'll execute the traitors who took up arms against us, but there are still so many who will secretly harbor these beliefs, and rooting them out will be harder. Impossible, even.Stoneglow, Swordshadow, Greetsglory? They think killing Bangar will end the war. You and I both know that won't be enough. [...]Then you said I would never be Khan-Ur, as if I might need your permission to obtain it. It seems you don't appreciate our current situation.Until recently, we'd been getting along fine without a Khan-Ur. Each legion controlled its own people, there was friendly competition, and the Iron paw always knew what the Ash paw was up to. But Bangar changed that.We didn't need a Khan-Ur because we all agreed, as imperators, that a balance of power was better. And it was. Until the balance was gone. Now there are two charr: United Legions and Dominion. One will conquer the other, and one of them is in league with an Elder Dragon. If they win, it would be the end of us, I agree. That is why even when Bangar is dead, we cannot let his ideas persist. It's not enough to kill him. We need to win.The legions as we knew them may return someday, but until we get the charr back on track, I think you'd agree we need a strong leader with experience bringing enemies together to prevent anything like this from happening again. (Source) While Smodur erroneously thought he didn't need Malice's permission to become Khan-Ur, Scott McGough said in the TowerTalk charr interview that the Khan-Ur ascendant will need to be supported by all the legions and their leadership. If even one legion (or imperator) disapproves, a Khan-Ur won't rise.While Crecia is gaining praise from each legion for her leadership qualities, charisma, strategic mind and ferociousness based on the ambient dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast, she shouldn't become Khan-Ur for a few reasons. She's of Flame Legion heritage despite viewing herself as Blood, and the traitor Ryland (who killed Smodur, contributed to the death of Almorra, betrayed Bangar, and aligned with Jormag) is her cub.Iron Legion, who want revenge for Smodur's death, would never fully approve of Crecia's leadership because of these issues even if she could somehow prove (assuming that the old rule still holds) that she's a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur via her sire (who is, or was, a high-ranking shaman in the Flame Legion) or dam. That is, of course, unless Mia Kindleshot or whoever ascends to the Iron throne is willing to set aside these issues and view Crecia as competent enough to ignore the rest of the baggage that comes with her. But there would be several disagreements being raised among some Iron tribunes (I could think of Fume Brighteye, although she would no doubt challenge Mia for the Iron throne as lore states that Fume desires to become the Iron Imperator) and soldiers who would view Crecia with suspicion especially because she didn't stop Ryland when she had the chance in Ep3 and thus indirectly contributed to Smodur's assassination by allowing his assassin to live to plot his revenge.Ash Legion Shadow: I don't know if I have much faith in the United Legions, to be honest.Ash Legion Scout: Well, they've got Stoneglow. She's probably the best leader for this situation. Long as they listen to her.Whispers Agent: Oh, they will.Ash Legion Shadow: How can you be so sure?Whispers Agent: Would you go against Stoneglow?Ash Legion Scout: Not a chance. (Source) Aside from the charr Pact Commander, Rytlock has performed the most notable military feats out of any would-be Khan-Ur with the way he contributed to the demises of three Elder Dragons, a lich king, a Flame Imperator, and even a disgraced human god. If he's revealed to be Bangar's son in the end (as there has been some potential teasing in that direction given Bangar's abnormal interest in Rytlock's development since cubhood) and thus a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, he basically can check two conditions to becoming Khan-Ur from the list.However, Rytlock is seen as less of a charr now because he's spent so much time with the other races and has adopted their mannerisms, which both Bangar and Smodur point out. Add to that the still unknown conditions of his tribunal and why his rank was reinstated afterwards, plus Ryland being his son, that he may have trouble earning the respect of all the legions, especially after he acted in such an aggressive way towards Smodur in Episodes 3 and 4. As such, something major would need to happen for all the legions to view Rytlock as the best candidate despite his accomplishments on the field, and I don't see it happening anytime soon unless we're in for some major revelations later on.Efram is viewed as being too soft and is even gently mocked for his attempts to be ferocious (even by allies like Malice) even though we know he does have a dangerous trigger point if you dare threaten the safety of his people and particularly his daughter. While the legions could grow to sympathize with Efram over time, handing the reins of Khan-Ur to an atoning Flame splinter group would be too soon after Gaheron and his predecessors' reign of terror.Besides, Efram's Flame Imperator position is far from secure as there should still be at least four tribunes and potentially a new hierophant representing evil Flame splinter groups that contest his claim for the throne. Perhaps one of these splinter groups could be led by Crecia's evil shaman sire, so the conflict for Flame throne would be personal for both Efram and Crecia while Efram would help Crecia come to terms with her troubled Flame past.From Iron side, we've yet to see whether Mia Kindleshot automatically ascends to the Iron throne (especially if she's revealed to be Smodur's daughter; if she isn't, we'd have to ask if Smodur has any surviving cubs out there who might want the throne by blood right) or is contested by Bhuer Goreblade, Kyranith Steelgrip, or Fume Brighteye. Regardless of who ascends to the Iron throne, they wouldn't necessarily have what it takes to become Khan-Ur so soon to their reign as the new Iron Imperator even though Fume would certainly have the ambition and some cult of following on Iron side to back herself up even though her anti-human stance might sour her towards Crecia and Malice and thus prevent her from getting those legions' support.Out of all the imperators, Malice actually has the best chance of becoming Khan-Ur as of this writing. She should be a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, contributed to the capture of a rogue Blood Imperator, and ended the Renegade threat for now. She's already earned respect from Crecia, Efram and potentially Rytlock (she and Rytlock did dine together in Ghosts of Ascalon so apparently they had good diplomatic relations as they exchanged intel). If she's able to contribute to Jormag's downfall too, she has a chance to grab the mantle. The problem is that several grunts and officers among the legions view Malice as too secretive with all her double agents and moles everyone plus the surveillance devices.While Scott McGough's TowerTalk suggested that each legion wants the mantle of Khan-Ur and thus Malice should desire it too despite being the youngest imperator, she may not be the type to paint a target on her back by becoming a public Khan-Ur. I could see her preferring to promote someone else to the position as a puppet Khan-Ur whom she could control as a grey eminence (a la Cardinal Richelieu in France) who is the true power behind the throne. As Malice has already gained the favor of several legion leaders (and I imagine she'd win over Mia Kindleshot too as Mia is also pro-Ebonhawke Treaty, assuming that Mia ascends in Iron), it should be easy enough for her to manipulate any of the imperators who are newbies to the role compared to her.I do wonder if Malice's very name (well, Malice) is foreshadowing, though, unless it's supposed to be a subversion and how someone with such a nasty name is actually the most virtuous charr out there. For some reason she's let Smodur believe that he alone made the Ebonhawke Treaty happen when we know from Dougal and Ember's dialogue in Ghosts of Ascalon that actually Malice was the true driving force behind the treaty who used Almorra as the middlewoman to reach out to Jennah to set the stage for the retrieval of the Claw of the Khan-Ur while also keeping a low profile so even Ember wasn't sure if Malice was truly on the pro-treaty side.I wonder why Malice downplays her role in making the treaty happen unless she wants to cover both bases to keep support from both the anti-treaty and pro-treaty parties among all the legions. We also have troubling sayings about her too, such as the infamous "When Swordshadow comes for you, may she leave you alive." In post-Smodur death scene in Ep4, the Commander even outright questions Malice about her seemingly uncaring attitude about Smodur's death, which is oddly reminiscent to the Commander being worried about Smodur's ambitions in post-Bangar departure conversation in the prologue.Malice: This is...inconvenient, to say the least.Player: That's all you can say?Malice: Smodur and I, we've had our differences. But we always made things work. For the good of the charr. Now...Player: We owe him a lot. Despite everything.Malice: We do. And Iron will remember him a certain way. But Ash, Blood, and Flame? We'll all remember him in different ways, I'm sure.Player: I'm sure. (Source) It makes me wonder if all of this is setting up Malice for some grey morality stuff later down the line. She clearly wasn't willing to divulge that she had double agents in the Dominion until confronted about it in Ep3, and she's following the Commander's progress with a close eye (as we learn in the prologue where her dialogue changes depending on which imperator we've visited first before coming to her).While I adore Malice and her being among the most moral charr, I wouldn't mind to find some skeletons in her closet and see that more ruthless side where she ends up manipulating the Commander for the "good cause" and hopefully not devolve into moustache-twirling villainy. We've already seen three imperators' fall from grace, so it'd be odd if Malice, despite being the youngest imperator (and likely close to Rytlock and Crecia's age) not repeat their mistakes but in the Ash way to show us that perhaps the whole imperator system is rotten and the charr need to really drop reliance on blood relation to Khan-Ur and the whole quest for becoming Khan-Ur entirely.Smodur may be right about poison running deep throughout the legions, and it also supports Scott McGough's statements where the greatest threat to the charr are themselves and their constant struggle for power. No legion would willingly hand over Khan-Ur leadership to another legion (the original Khan-Ur may have only managed it because he only had to unite smaller warbands at the time rather than win over support from four powerful legions which didn't really exist until his sons became his generals and formed the High Legions).That is the tragedy of the charr: as long as the temptation of Khan-Ur exists, the charr will eventually tear themselves apart. As long as the Claw of the Khan-Ur exists as a symbol for a would-be ascendant, someone will always want that position no matter what, no matter how many generations pass. The only way to end the cycle of revenge, in my opinion, is to destroy the legacy of the Khan-Ur via destroying the Claw, and possibly even abolish the rank of imperator and reliance on Khan-Ur bloodline altogether so all charr officers will be equal.What might work is the charr legions ironically moving backwards from Roman times. The charr started as tribes who united under the first empire and then fell into autonomous states ruled by equal imperators as seen reminiscent of the division into Eastern and Western Rome, or the rule of the Tetrarchy (the Four Emperors), or even the Mongol squabbling between the Khan's sons as Julia Nardin referenced in the past. The charr need to complete the process of evolution and move towards the time that preceded the Roman Empire: the Roman Republic.Instead of being ruled by a single Khan-Ur (who could be overthrown anyways) or four squabbling warlord-imperators, perhaps the charr should be ruled by tribunes who could be elected to the position every four years or so. If each legion had approximately six tribunes, we could see the charr Republic's senate consisting of at least 24 equal tribunes with maybe a chairman elected for one year after which the chair has to step down and hand in the reins to the other voted chair.I'd love to see the imperialistic charr become a democracy where each social class had the chance to be heard via their elected tribune representative in the senate, so even scrappers, gladia and potentially even the non-charr plebeians had a voice in this new republic. Dividing the absolute power among 24 or more senators representing each legion equally (as we know there are differences in opinion even within one legion, see e.g. Fume vs. Mia on the issue of the Ebonhawke Treaty, or Makk the Silent vs. Torga Desergrave on how to handle missions) would also prevent temptation for any one senator to take over, and each viewpoint would have to be considered on equal footing rather than an imperator dictating their rule with absolute authority. We've already seen that the current United Legions don't really trust one another as revealed by various dialogues throughout Drizzlewood Coast:Various Flame Legion Soldier: Who cares what Efram says; I don't trust Iron Legion for a second.Various Flame Legion Soldier: Ash are the sneaky ones. I'm more worried about them.Various Flame Legion Soldier: We may be "allies" for now, but at the end of the day, I trust Flame and Flame alone. (Source) Ash Legion Spy: Who cares about this "allies" crap? I'm only here 'cause it's obvious Bangar's out to protect Blood.Iron Legion Engineer: Bangar's out to protect Bangar. But you're right. Blood looks out for their own. I don't trust them either. (Source) Ash Legion Spy: Wonder how things are gonna change with Crecia running the show.Ash Legion Scout: Who cares? Blood'll have to figure all that out. It's their problem.Ash Legion Spy: And ours. Legions won't mean much when this is over. We'll have bigger stuff dividing us.Ash Legion Scout: Oh. Stuff like which side we fought on?Ash Legion Spy: Yeah. And stuff like are we alive or not. (Source) Iron Legion Engineer: I'm the last one in my warband who hasn't defected.Ash Legion Scout: When did they leave?Iron Legion Engineer: Little over a week ago. I know the legions are supposed to be in this together, but I feel...really alone.Ash Legion Scout: Being out here doesn't help. Makes everything seem emptier... Just keep moving forward. That's all we can do. (Source) Ash Legion Scout (1): My brother defected a couple weeks ago.Ash Legion Scout (2): Sorry. My sister did too. Guess there's more traitors out there than you'd think.Ash Legion Scout (1): That's what I thought at first. Now I'm wondering if he made the right choice. [...]Flame Legion Stalker (1): Who knows where Malice is half the time. Typical Ash Legion cowardice.Flame Legion Stalker (2): Hide in the shadows and let someone else do the fighting. Ruinbringer does the same thing.Flame Legion Stalker (1): Flame's not perfect, but at least we fight our own battles. They're lucky we're here to help with this mess. (Source) There's no feasible way to instantly make all these charr get along afterwards when suspicions, hatred and fears still run deep throughout the legions. As such, if a Khan-Ur did somehow rise in the future, it'd be on a shaky foundation as we've seen lots of charr not being okay with the United Legions stuff beyond this necessary step to temporarily unite to take down Bangar.Realistically we should also start to see charr being pressured by external threats in the post-Smodur death political climate, which will only make this contest for Khan-Ur position (or the charr eventually embracing an actual republic as suggested above) more difficult in the long run.As revealed by Malice in the prologue, the Separatists are rising in power again (which means they must have found more funding and a new charismatic leader since their White Mantle backers' fall). The Seps should have a wonderful time pointing out to Bangar's Dominion, the human population massacre at Drizzlewood Coast, and all those charr eagerly defecting from the legions to side with Jormag as "proof" that there should be no peace with beasts and the charr will betray humanity if given the chance. News of the Drizzlewood events should've reached Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach by now, so we should start seeing severe anti-charr views rising in prominence. How will the tengu of the Dominion of Winds react to the massacre of the Quetzal in Drizzlewood Coast?The norn, at least, should pardon most charr for the crimes as they only judge individuals rather than entire groups (let alone legions), but I imagine they'd still be a bit wary about Jormag's growing influence among the charr especially as more and more male norn have already been falling for Jormag's temptations. How will the surviving United Legions charr leadership view norn who can no longer be fully trusted and whose defections to the cause partly contributed to the celebrated charr hero Almorra's death?Will the Vigil, and Ember Doomforge who wanted to kill Bangar, allow Bangar to be kept alive as a prisoner despite the crimes he committed against Almorra and the Vigil? Or will they demand him to be released to face justice in court despite the Commander and Aurene wanting to keep him alive to communicate with Jormag? We could have such juicy political drama with this and the Commander, especially if they were a Vigil member, having to make tough choices especially if their friends Laranthir and Jhavi demand Bangar's head. This might be exactly what Jormag is after: turning allies against one another as Jormag would know by now how hated Bangar is among the Vigil who cry for justice.We should also start to see Adelbern and his Ascalonian ghost army (empowered by Kralkatorrik and presumably Balthazar's magic leaking into the environment as it already affected Jormag and Drakkar) becoming more of a threat to the charr again with their new powers. If Adelbern is any strategist (and he should be based on his reputation), he and Duke Barradin should be leading a massive invasion of Ascalon with these empowered troops while taking advantage of the legions' current weakened state.All of this would force the charr to make tough choices: will they elect a temporary Khan-Ur (or abolish the old system and embrace a republic) to keep their fracturing legions together to face Adelbern and the Separatists' threats while preparing for the next moves of Ryland and the Frost Legion? Will they continue to squabble and risk annihilation? What about the growing anti-human stance among the charr as revealed by allied dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast where charr were already threatening their human allies? Will the peace hold while anti-charr sentiment grows in Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach due to Bangar's crimes against Drizzlewood Coast humans and Vigil?Iron Legion Engineer: Move it, skin bag!Seraph Guard: We're on the same side. Show some respect!Iron Legion Engineer: Same side? Yeah, this time. (Source) I have to say I worry for the charr's future as they're more divided now than ever before as the legions are splitting apart even on the allied legions' side as many secretly harbor the old hatreds. To paraphrase Ellen Kiel's statement about Balthazar from PoF prologue: "It's a powder keg over there, and that maniac [in this case, Bangar] has already lit the fuse."Thanks to Bangar, the charr have come to realize the status quo has to change as they risk getting "declawed". Given the impressive number of Iron Legion defections and the above dialogue about them not respecting Seraph (despite being THE legion who had the most positive experiences working with humans in Ascalon and beyond), it seems a growing number of charr disliked the treaty but didn't defect to the Renegades out of respect for Iron leadership at the time. Things changed with Bangar's speech, and maybe with a bit of Jormag's growing influence (as there's lots of dialogue referencing charr seeing things, hearing voices, or having nightmares, and Luccia's journal confirming that she defected from our warband partly because of the whispers), however, and now there's growing unrest among the legions.Iron Legion Soldier: This place is starting to get to my head.Blood Legion Blademaster: Yeah, it's like I'm starting to get sick, but it's not just my body that aches?Iron Legion Soldier: Exactly! Freakin' ice energy...Blood Legion Blademaster: I hope it goes away soon, 'cause I hate it. (Source) Can a future Khan-Ur, the current imperator setup, or the potential charr republic truly go with Smodur's approach and execute the hatemongerers among the legions even though it'd mean executing a significant number of charr? If that hatred is left to fester, however, it will just lead to another catastrophe down the line, especially when external, powerful manipulators like Jormag (and potentially Balthazar's half-brother Menzies the Mad should he ever make an appearance) can use these growing hatreds for their own ends? How can there ever be hope for peace now that each legion has been betrayed in a worse way than they ever have been (due to defectors from each side), and how brother and sister literally fought against one another and grew to hate the other for being traitors to the charr cause? What will happen with all the imprisoned Dominion whose loyalties and potential atonement should be in question? What if the Commander and Aurene deny Bangar from both the charr and the Vigil despite the cries for his trial to answer for his crimes?These and many more questions the charr leaders will have to ask themselves while trying to prevent things from getting even worse while the threats of Jormag, Adelbern, and Separatists loom over them.While I worry for the charr, I also love the fact that the writers have such a goldmine with this present setting if they choose to embrace the complex political landscape we now see ahead of us...either in this saga or in a potential future storyline (or storylines). :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercury ranique.2170 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I personally think it might be Ryland Steelcatcher (if it happens at all). The remainder of the story is two episodes (if the lenght is typical) and should come to a conclusion soon. I doubt it will be the destruction of Jormag, But pushing Jormag back by his own new champion betraying him and uniting the charr against this common enemy makes sense.Do not take me wrong, there is a lot that can happen. But if there will be a next khan-ur, it will be someone who did something extraordinary. So one of the leaders of the united legions would not count. It would be seen like a General taking credits for the legions work. Crecia or Rytlock taking up arms against Ryland would also not be seen as something worthy for the Khan Ur, it would mostly seen as a private business between a cub and his parents. So if we get a new Khan Ur, Ryland would make the most sense as part of a plottwist where he turns out to be the great hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 This may sound crazy, but what if the position of Khan-Ur will be viewed as outdated and no longer necessary by the United Legions (assuming they win over the Dominion, most likely they will)? Maybe the charr who survive this civil war will have less "traditional" views on the importance of a Khan-Ur. The way people talk about the position of Khan-Ur makes it seem like they just want to unite the charr so that they can then dominate other races (there's a dialogue in the Black Citadel that goes something like this "When we have a Khan-Ur, no one will stop us"). And if that's the case, and assuming the charr won't want to dominate but rather live peacefully and on equal terms with others, then the Khan-Ur might not make sense anymore to this new "generation" of charr? Of course, the Khan-Ur could be someone who's progressive and truly wants peace with other races. But the idea of a Khan-Ur (the supreme leader of all charr) just sounds (to me) too traditional/old for a society that wants to be progressive and put the past behind. In any case, if they decide to go with a new Khan-Ur, I'm sure it will be someone fitting and good for the charr. Maybe this new Khan-Ur will even bring some Dominion charr back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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