There is no build diversity

[NotFound.7813]

List of playable builds

Meta:

Bunker scrapperNades holoDaredevil pdReaperSupport tempest

Half meta:

Support shout warrSymbol core guardianDecap scrapperRenegade shiroBunker renegadeCore condi thiefPower heraldCondi heraldCore necro condi

Some decent builds:DeadeyeScrapper nadesSupport tank core guardian with staff (idk poledra plays this)Sic em soulbeastCondi tank soulbeastDecap druidCondi mirage with rupt mantraChrono misha buildSagebrand teapod build/ maybe symbolbrandS/D daredevilMaybe dh burning here too

Playable builds:Condi reaperEgun holo with demoZerk holo build with elixir rTank condi weaverTank water weaverTank scourgeBurning dhNature magic mender core ranger

Some other builds

Core valk ranger axe dagger / gsSpellbreaker d shield gsCondi berserker (ajaxx build)

Some not that good but u can play them builds:

Mender defense spellbreaker d shield gsCore warr axe shield gsFire weaverBurn core guardianCore gs guardianAll forms of minionmancers aka tanky core or scourge or reaper with minions

Meme builds (lot of ppl actually play this idk why):

Minion tempest buildBerserker rifle or all other forms of yolo zerk one shot berserkerStaff thiefFull trap dh trap runesFull trap core ranger or druid trap runesCondi deadeyePower dh with lg sword shield and trap

There is build variety

Yes some stuff overperforms

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Okay, perhaps this post is directed, indirectly at me and my comment on another thread. So, I'm going to address you very briefly here because i go to work in a half an hour.

There are around over a million different possible combinations for one to make a unique build on any particular class. Out of all these possible combinations, there are a single digit number of them that can actually perform to the level to which most would consider to be acceptable in gold 3 (the top of the bell curve where most of the players reside in the Spvp population). In addition to this disparity, there exist a single digit (or arguably zero) number of unique team compositions, that one would consider as unique onto themselves.

You can say that there are a whopping 3 builds to play per class that feel competitive (some glaringly more competitive than others here in this list) and call that build diversity. But from someone who has played guild wars 1, and can compare guild wars to other systems that actually have diversity (like biodiversity), you simply don't know what build diversity is, or have ever experienced it.

[NotFound.7813]

Builds between meta and decent builds are totally playable in ranked and u can surely perform in "high tiers" with them wich means there are 25 builds.

Ats and mats are not included but most part of the community doesnt tryhard in these scenarios , only few teams

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"wevh.2903" said:Builds between meta and decent builds aee totally playable in ranked and u can surely perform in "high tiers" with them wich means there is 25 builds

Ats and mats are not included but most part of the community doest tryhard in these scenarios , only few teams

Your response alerts me to the fact that you have no idea what diversity is man. I highly suggest doing what i did, and actually do some research on the subject before even trying to talk about it as if you know what it is. Yes it is a subject that people study and get paid to study. But you can study it yourself for free and without a paycheck, because the information is out there and freely available to anyone with a computer and mouse.

I'll repeat this one more time. You have millions of possible build combinations, and only 25 somewhat relevant builds across 9 different distinct classes. That is a HUGE disparity.

[NotFound.7813]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Okay, perhaps this post is directed, indirectly at me and my comment on another thread. So, I'm going to address you very briefly here because i go to work in a half an hour.

There are around over a million different possible combinations for one to make a unique build on any particular class. Out of all these possible combinations, there are a single digit number of them that can actually perform to the level to which most would consider to be acceptable in gold 3 (the top of the bell curve where most of the players reside in the Spvp population). In addition to this disparity, there exist a single digit (or arguably zero) number of unique team compositions, that one would consider as unique onto themselves.

You can say that there are a whopping 3 builds to play per class that feel competitive (some glaringly more competitive than others here in this list) and call that build diversity. But from someone who has played guild wars 1, and can compare guild wars to other systems that actually have diversity (like biodiversity), you simply don't know what build diversity is, or have ever experienced it.

No the post is not directed to you . All builds between meta and decent builds can be used in ranked without a problem , all these builds add something and doenst get hardcountered by meta builds so u can perfeclty perform with them at high tiers in ranked . Some of those builds like sic em r difficult builds .

So there is 25 possible builds , not variations of the same build . U can play support tempest with fire or earth but i included support tempest as a whole including all variations as one build.

At gold3 u can perform better with a minion bunker scourge (with the right build) than a power herald. Or climb faster with condi herald than shiro renegade. Doenst mean those builds are better , means those builds r cheese and easier to play but this way i would change all the list cuz some meme builds can perform better at gold than meta builds. Best example is burn core guardian , u can climb until plat1 and then it becomes useless so the build is one of the last.

Guild wars 1 is a total different game so u cant compare both

There is lot of builds to play , almost a build per specialization but i feel like lot of ppl have no access to those builds

[NotFound.7813]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"wevh.2903" said:Builds between meta and decent builds aee totally playable in ranked and u can surely perform in "high tiers" with them wich means there is 25 builds

Ats and mats are not included but most part of the community doest tryhard in these scenarios , only few teams

Your response alerts me to the fact that you have no idea what diversity is man. I highly suggest doing what i did, and actually do some research on the subject before even trying to talk about it as if you know what it is. Yes it is a subject that people study and get paid to study. But you can study it yourself for free and without a paycheck, because the information is out there and freely available to anyone with a computer and mouse.

I'll repeat this one more time. You have millions of possible build combinations, and only 25 somewhat relevant builds across 9 different distinct classes. That is a HUGE disparity.

Having 1000 builds isnt the way gw2 pvp is designed for , there r few builds and few comps and every balanced patch buffs/nerfs switch those to new ones . Lol does the same , there are few builds every meta and balance patch change those to new ones . Meta changes so the game doenst get bored over time.Build diversity in gw2 means u can play different options outside "the best meta comp" and still perform with it.

I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

[Tayga.3192]

Finally someone understands lmao

[aymnad.9023]

While I do not necessarily agree with the ranking (because it’s impossible to fully agree on everything) I completely agree with the point you are trying to make.I take a look at the forum almost every day but I do not bother writing here anymore.I am so tired of those “this is the worst we ever had”, “no build diversity” (and a few more like thief is bad :p). Anyone who played the game for more than 1 month should clearly be able to tell how wrong this is and yet the same players keep poping up every time in every thread I’ve seen for more than 1 year complaining.I think there are a few outliers. In term of damage or sustain (or both), there are a few builds that I hate and want to see removed but know they have some weaknesses. The difference does not feel game breaking anymore. The more I try different professions and fight different builds, the more I like the direction they took.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@wevh.2903 said:Having 1000 builds isnt the way gw2 pvp is designed for , there r few builds and few comps and every balanced patch buffs/nerfs switch those to new ones . Lol does the same , there are few builds every meta and balance patch change those to new ones . Meta changes so the game doenst get bored over time.Build diversity in gw2 means u can play different options outside "the best meta comp" and still perform with it.

I know that what you're saying makes sense to you. But this is like the Allegory of Plato's Cave. You are staring at a mere shadow of what could truly be a beautiful world outside the cave, but because you've lived in this cave for so long, that the cave has become your accepted reality.

I've played Gw2 since it's inception, and gw1 since the release of factions. I also can appreciate the beauty of the real world and how diversity has shaped it over millions and billions of years.

Gw2's diversity is a mere shadow of what it usto be, and that is in itself a mere shadow of what gw1 usto be, and even gw1, a great and highly diverse game is a mere shadow of what it could have been in comparison to the real world, which they could, given the amount of choices, can be realistically achieved.

@wevh.2903 said:I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

[Eugchriss.2046]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

savage ???

[Naqam a.6521]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@wevh.2903 said:I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

If it is like ''A Trip Into House's Subconscious | House M.D.'' , would be appreciated:)

[NotFound.7813]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@wevh.2903 said:Having 1000 builds isnt the way gw2 pvp is designed for , there r few builds and few comps and every balanced patch buffs/nerfs switch those to new ones . Lol does the same , there are few builds every meta and balance patch change those to new ones . Meta changes so the game doenst get bored over time.Build diversity in gw2 means u can play different options outside "the best meta comp" and still perform with it.

I know that what you're saying makes sense to you. But this is like the Allegory of Plato's Cave. You are staring at a mere shadow of what could truly be a beautiful world outside the cave, but because you've lived in this cave for so long, that the cave has become your accepted reality.

I've played Gw2 since it's inception, and gw1 since the release of factions. I also can appreciate the beauty of the real world and how diversity has shaped it over millions and billions of years.

Gw2's diversity is a mere shadow of what it usto be, and that is in itself a mere shadow of what gw1 usto be, and even gw1, a great and highly diverse game is a mere shadow of what it could have been in comparison to the real world, which they could, given the amount of choices, can be realistically achieved.

@wevh.2903 said:I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

Maybe u got bit of jerusalem syndrom , trying to save us mere mortals from our small perspective of life . What a joke

More builds would make the game worse in all aspects possible . You need to know how all playable builds work in order to play agaisnt them . Having 10 000 builds would end in a i pick a build and i win you , yea so much skill .

Gw2 and all decent pvp games r simple on their source but with simple elements u make complex strategies . Whats how decent pvp game works . As a thief you need to know what u can plus and what not , what builds r a easy plus , what 2v2 or 3v3 take when u should rotate or when not , when u should disengage or play safe cuz certain build can one shot u , or whem use non port spots, making 2939293929 builds world make strategy imposible . U cant know every build lf those 10 000 and u cant practise agaisnt them so u can ruot certain skills or dodge their burt combos. U basically cant know how to couterplay those builds and how they interact in order to take decisions.

Chess has a bunch of pieces with simple moves and those bunch of pieces with simlle moves make one of the greatest strategy games we have.

Adding nore moves to chess would make the game worst

I dont read ur post cuz u try to a analyze a the function of a bike by descomposing the particles of the materials used to build the bike. Is a big complex of a non sense stuff without a single outcome.

[NotFound.7813]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

savage ???

Was a good one not gonna lie

[Dantheman.3589]

The problem with this list is that you are including viable builds in ranked as half meta. They aren’t half meta, try taking any of those to an mAT and watch yourself get farmed, except ofc decap scrapper which should be included in meta instead of support scrapper. As such you decent builds are mostly meme builds except a few that should be in the category above.Overall flawed or extremely exaggerated list considering some stuff just won’t even be playable in mAts hence not being meta. There’s a reason builds like bunker core guard are only good ranked on metabattle, they work but just aren’t meta.

[Kuma.1503]

@wevh.2903 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@wevh.2903 said:Having 1000 builds isnt the way gw2 pvp is designed for , there r few builds and few comps and every balanced patch buffs/nerfs switch those to new ones . Lol does the same , there are few builds every meta and balance patch change those to new ones . Meta changes so the game doenst get bored over time.Build diversity in gw2 means u can play different options outside "the best meta comp" and still perform with it.

I know that what you're saying makes sense to you. But this is like the Allegory of Plato's Cave. You are staring at a mere shadow of what could truly be a beautiful world outside the cave, but because you've lived in this cave for so long, that the cave has become your accepted reality.

I've played Gw2 since it's inception, and gw1 since the release of factions. I also can appreciate the beauty of the real world and how diversity has shaped it over millions and billions of years.

Gw2's diversity is a mere shadow of what it usto be, and that is in itself a mere shadow of what gw1 usto be, and even gw1, a great and highly diverse game is a mere shadow of what it could have been in comparison to the real world, which they could, given the amount of choices, can be realistically achieved.

@wevh.2903 said:I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

Maybe u got bit of jerusalem syndrom , trying to save us mere mortals from our small perspective of life . What a joke

More builds would make the game worse in all aspects possible . You need to know how all playable builds work in order to play agaisnt them . Having 10 000 builds would end in a i pick a build and i win you , yea so much skill .

Gw2 and all decent pvp games r simple on their source but with simple elements u make complex strategies . Whats how decent pvp game works . As a thief you need to know what u can plus and what not , what builds r a easy plus , what 2v2 or 3v3 take when u should rotate or when not , when u should disengage or play safe cuz certain build can one shot u , or whem use non port spots, making 2939293929 builds world make strategy imposible . U cant know every build lf those 10 000 and u cant practise agaisnt them so u can ruot certain skills or dodge their burt combos. U basically cant know how to couterplay those builds and how they interact in order to take decisions.

Chess has a bunch of pieces with simple moves and those bunch of pieces with simlle moves make one of the greatest strategy games we have.

Adding nore moves to chess would make the game worst

I dont read ur post cuz u try to a analyze a the function of a bike by descomposing the particles of the materials used to build the bike. Is a big complex of a non sense stuff without a single outcome.

It's not as hard as you think. Coming from the perspective of a league of legends player. Riot keeps adding new champions by the day, and the number of them that can be considered "viable" at any given time is quite large at this point... Yet people do it, they learn the ins and outs of how other champions work besides their own.They adapt their strategy on the fly to account for:

Game StateWho is weak/fedboth team compositions (billions of combinations)what enemies are buildinghow enemies are playing (what is their playstyle? can you exploit a certain player's weak points?)What kind of jungler does the enemy have?What pathing did they take this game? (Getting this wrong can cost you the game)

...and that's just scratching the surface.

With that in mind, if more builds were to become viable in sPvP it wouldn't be impossible to adapt. In reality, what good players tend to do is gather information and adapt accordingly.

As the thief in this situation, play close attention to the fight that is breaking out as you run in to plus. How are the two players fighting on node playing? Can you gleam anything about the opponent's build by watching the fight?

Most lower level thieves will tunnel vision on what they want to accomplish out of the plus and how they will do it, Good players will watch closely and adapt their strategy on the fly. It adds another layer of depth to this game where players can show their mastery.

[Mega.5791]

It is not the build diversity. This actually has increased since before the February patch. I totally agree on that.

However, the fact that there were no real changes since then (except quick fixes for example on condi rev) and the pace of adjustments has reduced even further since then, that is the main issue for most people. We,, for me at least. Nothing shakes up the meta anymore, no fundamental changes, no truly new builds coming back (or holo finally getting the mirage treatment).

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@wevh.2903 said:As a thief you need to know what u can plus and what not

See this is why you are in Plato's Cave. The first thing you said to support your position, is how the thief class it's supposed to be played... You've already subconsciously boxed in the class in to a paradigm, in a game based on...BUILT on being able to have a high level of different player choices.

There are 100 or so runes, 30 or so sigils, thousands of different trait combinations, and thousands of different utility skill and weapon combinations per class...and you've now relegated that entire selection to a small percentage that require you to have the capability of fighting and winning a +1 fight.

Did you know there us-to be a thief named "Noble Soul" that would go around and support players like a healer in WvW? He was known as the "medic thief" and his build was strictly heal/support based. Using one of the millions of trait/rune/sigil/utility combinations, he was able to pull together a build that can play thief as healer/support type.

It was limited sure...it's nowhere as good as a tempest healer...but the combinations in the build diversity back then allowed it to happen. Who are you to invalidate his build because you think thief wasn't "designed" to be played in this way? The truth is, you are just subjecting your own opinion on what you believe Anet's intentions were in the first place for the design of the game. In fact what we actually know is that Anet intended Thief to be a 1v1 duelist class at inception, since it is explicitly mentioned in their class description on the official website.

@wevh.2903 said:Chess has a bunch of pieces with simple moves and those bunch of pieces with simple moves make one of the greatest strategy games we have.Adding more moves to chess would make the game worse.

Again, an unfounded un-backed claim. Adding or taking away moves in chess doesn't make the game better or worse. It either makes the game either simpler, or more complex. Complexity, is not synonymous with being worse...in fact complexity i would argue is more beautiful than simplicity. But the two aren't really meant to be compared...there is a beauty in simplicity and a beauty in complexity that should both be appreciated. If you did the research, you would find this information relevant when discussing two completely different games.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@wevh.2903 said:Chess has a bunch of pieces with simple moves and those bunch of pieces with simple moves make one of the greatest strategy games we have.Adding more moves to chess would make the game worse.

Again, an unfounded un-backed claim. Adding or taking away moves in chess doesn't make the game better or worse. It either makes the game either simpler, or more complex. Complexity, is not synonymous with being worse...in fact complexity i would argue is more beautiful than simplicity. But the two aren't really meant to be compared...there is a beauty in simplicity and a beauty in complexity that should both be appreciated. If you did the research, you would find this information relevant when discussing two completely different games.

It's subjective, but not necessarily unfounded. His point was that attempting to accommodate endless complexity does not necessarily improve the result. This is objectively true. Logically, there are limits to the degree of complexity our minds are capable of. Naturally, this limit is different according to the individual's ability/preference. Chess happens to be a good example of this because the number of permutations involved in predicting outcomes in this game already go far beyond what human minds are capable of.

Adding complexity could improve the game, but it's as plausible to assume that it would simply muddy the waters. The devil is in the details. And so it is with GW2 PvP balance. How would this miracle be achieved such that you don't end up just trading one build for another in the meta?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Adding complexity could improve the game, but it's as plausible to assume that it would simply muddy the waters.

Well, this is debatable...but i never said that complexity would improve the game...i said that the only real parameters we can talk about is either the game can become more simple or the game can become more complex. Good and bad don't enter the conversation, and in that way they are both beautiful and should be respected in that sense. There is a beauty in the complexity of life, and beauty in the simplicity of equations. One can even say that the two are correlated and can't even be separated...that complexity arises from simplicity, or that complexity gives simple problems their real solutions. (A good example of this is The Three Body Problem...a very simple problem that requires a complex solution. )

How would this miracle be achieved such that you don't end up just trading one build for another in the meta?This is the million dollar question. But it's no miracle. We have enough historical understanding and have advanced science enough to build models that imitate highly complex systems. Gw2 is from my view point, a more simplified version of a bio diverse ecosystem. Where builds are synonymous with species, and where the species compete for survival and procreation, builds compete over winning and losing games, which decides the builds continued usage and it's popularity.

So the answer to the question, is how would we approach modeling a complex system that already exists. What parameters need to be understood in order to do it properly? Does simplifying a game that is already highly complex like GW2 even make any sense to do?

I've done the research to actually answer these questions...but it is not a short answer...it's very long and it involves a bit of understanding about certain sciences...which i can explain in laymen terms, but you have to really digest a lot of information. The OP already made a complaint about a post that wasn't even that long and refused to read it for that reason. But if you are interested i'm more than willing to explain the entire thing in great detail.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Adding complexity could improve the game, but it's as plausible to assume that it would simply muddy the waters.

Well, this is debatable...but i never said that complexity would improve the game...i said that the only real parameters we can talk about is either the game can become more simple or the game can become more complex. Good and bad don't enter the conversation, and in that way they are both beautiful and should be respected in that sense. There is a beauty in the complexity of life, and beauty in the simplicity of equations. One can even say that the two are correlated and can't even be separated...that complexity arises from simplicity, or that complexity gives simple problems their real solutions.

How would this miracle be achieved such that you don't end up just trading one build for another in the meta?This is the million dollar question. But it's no a miracle. We have enough historical understanding and have advanced science enough to build models that imitate highly complex systems. Gw2 is from my view point, a more simplified version of a bio diverse ecosystem. Where builds are synonymous with species, and where the species compete for survival and procreation, builds compete over winning and losing games, which decides the builds continued usage and it's popularity.

So the answer to the question, is how would we approach modeling a complex system that already exists. What parameters need to be understood in order to do it properly? Does simplifying a game that is already highly complex like GW2 even make any sense to do?

I've done the research to actually answer these questions...but it is not a short answer...it's very long and it involves a bit of understanding about certain sciences...which i can explain in laymen terms, but you have to really digest a lot of information. The OP already made a complaint about a post that wasn't even that long and refused to read it for that reason. But if you are interested i'm more than willing to explain the entire thing in great detail.

That sounds fascinating, honestly. I can't wait to read your thesis on that. But for now I got tik-tok videos to watch. Later, broski!

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:That sounds fascinating, honestly. I can't wait to read your thesis on that. But for now I got tik-tok videos to watch. Later, broski!

Take your friend Wevh with you, maybe you can call it a date and score big time.

[NotFound.7813]

@"Dantheman.3589" said:The problem with this list is that you are including viable builds in ranked as half meta. They aren’t half meta, try taking any of those to an mAT and watch yourself get farmed, except ofc decap scrapper which should be included in meta instead of support scrapper. As such you decent builds are mostly meme builds except a few that should be in the category above.Overall flawed or extremely exaggerated list considering some stuff just won’t even be playable in mAts hence not being meta. There’s a reason builds like bunker core guard are only good ranked on metabattle, they work but just aren’t meta.

List is about ranked , but there is builds u r missing cuz NA comps r stuck in the same , big example was symbolbrand :")

[Dantheman.3589]

@wevh.2903 said:

@"Dantheman.3589" said:The problem with this list is that you are including viable builds in ranked as half meta. They aren’t half meta, try taking any of those to an mAT and watch yourself get farmed, except ofc decap scrapper which should be included in meta instead of support scrapper. As such you decent builds are mostly meme builds except a few that should be in the category above.Overall flawed or extremely exaggerated list considering some stuff just won’t even be playable in mAts hence not being meta. There’s a reason builds like bunker core guard are only good ranked on metabattle, they work but just aren’t meta.

List is about ranked , but there is builds u r missing cuz NA comps r stuck in the same , big example was symbolbrand :")

I’m not missing any builds. If you wanna say Na isn’t up to date well I’d like to see you beat team USA then maybe we can talk.

[NotFound.7813]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:The problem with this list is that you are including viable builds in ranked as half meta. They aren’t half meta, try taking any of those to an mAT and watch yourself get farmed, except ofc decap scrapper which should be included in meta instead of support scrapper. As such you decent builds are mostly meme builds except a few that should be in the category above.Overall flawed or extremely exaggerated list considering some stuff just won’t even be playable in mAts hence not being meta. There’s a reason builds like bunker core guard are only good ranked on metabattle, they work but just aren’t meta.

List is about ranked , but there is builds u r missing cuz NA comps r stuck in the same , big example was symbolbrand :")

I’m not missing any builds. If you wanna say Na isn’t up to date well I’d like to see you beat team USA then maybe we can talk.

U misisng worm comps , double decap druid/scrapper was a good aids comp too ,Healbreaker is pretty good roo , choronomancer has hid value. Etc , ofc some shot overperforms but there r some build pretty much usabled.

U can use sic em for daily at or sd daredevil without problem and still perform with it

On na every team played same stuff tanky slb /condi thief playing full team flght comps and then r55 comed with daredevil nades holo

[KrHome.1920]

The balancing of the game is better than most of the community thinks. There is a lot of stuff that is viable. 90% of the playerbase copypastes metabattle and godsofpvp and if they don't find a build there that carries them, then something else must be broken.

Unfortunately pvp is extremely cut back these days since anet removed half of the content (amulets, runes, sigils, some nerfed traits and skills don't do anything anymore and became useless). The build diversity for smallscale fights (1v1 up to 5v5) in wvw is better than it has ever been in the past. It's not perfect, but each class has a lot of options to be played effectively. At this point we can just hope that anet never transfers the pvp build mechanic to wvw.