There is no build diversity

[Obtena.7952]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If I can compete content with it ... I don't care if it gets nerfs unless those nerfs are how the build plays (like mesmer phantasm build). In otherwords, I don't care about performance.

But that's the thing...you can't compete with a build that sucks...

That's pretty funny. I recall about 6-7 years ago metapushers soloing dungeons with 'sucky' builds ... they did just fine. Sure it took a long time, but they succeeded. So no, you CAN compete with a build that sucks.

the performance of your build depends on you playing that build in a competitive environment

Except PVE in this game isn't competitive for a large number of people in this game. A build that 'sucks' depends as much on the player if not more than the build itself. Diversity is only small if you 1) self-restrict based on criteria (likely performance) or 2) are just so bad at playing, you can't play with even the easiest builds. For those of use that get more value playing what we want than seeing big numbers who can meet the minimum threshold of performance needed to succeed ... we have LOTS of diversity.

In a competitive environment like PVP and WVW, sure, people gravitate to the best ... and what is best will be limited by the number of strategies available to win. In this game, that's a pretty low number because of how simple the mechanics are. Diversity will depend on this ... I'm going to call it 'simplicity' ... you call it whatever you want.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Obtena.7952 said:Except PVE in this game isn't competitive for a large number of people in this game. A build that 'sucks' depends as much on the player if not more than the build itself.

Are we in the PVE forum? This is PVP not PVE...

And arguably, the same competition constructs exists in PVE as well...because the same rules apply there that do in pvp...it's just less obvious to see them there than it is here...but i'll gladly elaborate on that for you....

...like....are you ready for this one? Raids.

Go into a raid lobby with whatever crappy build you like to play, and nobody will accept you into their group. The reason for this is because you are competing for a spot in an organization... If your build can't compete against other builds for this spot, you will not get the position. Much like how working people compete for job positions in the workforce... in the case of raids, sometimes it doesn't even matter how good the build you like to play is (it could be the best build on earth) but because you are still competing for a spot in this group, you are forced to change to a build based on these principles of competition.

In another case, let's say you make your own squad, which you can do, (easier to do, unlike in the real world) you go and play whatever build you want, and you recruit others who also play whatever builds they want. The monsters in the raid are the problems Gw2 is presenting to you to solve...if your build is not good enough to defeat these enemies...well you can't progress in the raid. If you continually fail to solve the problem of defeating the monster, you will eventually not play that build because again, it isn't capable of solving that problem...even if you like to play it, you are compelled to change to something else because of this need to solve that problem.

So in all cases, from playing the game and into the real world you are subjected almost always to competitive forces whether you like to believe that you aren't or not. Evolutionary biology's entire premise is built on the idea that our only purpose here on Earth is to compete with each other and other species. It's not much different for GW2, which is designed very similarly to the structure of biology in many ways.

[Obtena.7952]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:So in all cases, from playing the game and into the real world you are subjected almost always to competitive forces whether you like to believe that you aren't or not.

OK ... I'm not arguing if it is or isn't. My point is that the number of strategies to win in this game is low, so diversity will also be low. And that IS specific to competitive environments. For some reason you disagree with that or take some kind of issue with it. /shrug.

The fix for low diversity in competetive environments isn't tweaking numbers ... because it's a fools errand to do that AND satisfy people's idea of diversity. This is a meta-stable state. They can't maintain it even if they achieved it for some time.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Go into a raid lobby with whatever crappy build you like to play, and nobody will accept you into their group. The reason for this is because you are competing for a spot in an organization...

Sure, if you CHOOSE to make PVE competitive that way by going out of your way to do that ... that doesn't mean PVE is competitive by definition ... it just means you make it that way. PVE as intended in this game design is NOT competitive.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Obtena.7952" said:My point is that the number of strategies to win in this game is low, so diversity will also be low.

You're right i do disagree with that. I don't think the strategies that are required in the game are low...i actually think it's extremely high, and the barrier for entry IS the meta builds...since that's what the majority of players are playing in competitive games.

So your barrier for entry in successfully completing this spvp content...which is to solve the problem of "winning this spvp match" means that your strategy has to involve being able to defeat opposing meta builds. If your build can't do this, it will fail to compete against said meta builds. If you wish to remain competitive you have to address this in your strategy...if the build you play can't address it well...sorry but the build just ran out of luck.

@"Obtena.7952" said:The fix for low diversity in competetive environments isn't tweaking numbers ... because it's a fools errand to do that AND satisfy people's idea of diversity. This is a meta-stable state. They can't maintain it even if they achieved it for some time.

Yes i agree with this. I said this a bit earlier in the thread. My position is that tweaking numbers is basically a flawed procedure. I had already wrote a detailed explanation as to why, which ill link here just incase you wanted to confirm my position on this right now.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1344346#Comment_1344346

the proposed fix for diversity in my opinion based on my research and the collective discussions I've had with others here is by just making choices more meaningful and unique. Now that sounds pretty broad, but they have exact definitions. Not gonna go into them but ya...We've talked plenty about this on other discussions and frankly, we are technically on the same side here, i just have a different stance is all...that the problem can be solved rather than that it can't.

[Obtena.7952]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:So your barrier for entry in successfully completing this spvp content...which is to solve the problem of "winning this spvp match" means that your strategy has to involve being able to defeat opposing meta builds.

... and all of those meta builds are fundamentally based on the same strategy/toolset so your choices to pick a winner to beat them is very small. Thus, low diversity.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Obtena.7952 said:... and all of those meta builds are fundamentally based on the same strategy/toolset so your choices to pick a winner are very small. Thus, low diversity.

Okay i get that...makes perfect sense when you worded it this way actually.

btw i edited my comment above...we are responding a bit too fast before we can read the edits on our posts so just wanted to make sure you read it in full.

[Elrond.9486]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@wevh.2903 said:Having 1000 builds isnt the way gw2 pvp is designed for , there r few builds and few comps and every balanced patch buffs/nerfs switch those to new ones . Lol does the same , there are few builds every meta and balance patch change those to new ones . Meta changes so the game doenst get bored over time.Build diversity in gw2 means u can play different options outside "the best meta comp" and still perform with it.

I know that what you're saying makes sense to you. But this is like the Allegory of Plato's Cave. You are staring at a mere shadow of what could truly be a beautiful world outside the cave, but because you've lived in this cave for so long, that the cave has become your accepted reality.

I've played Gw2 since it's inception, and gw1 since the release of factions. I also can appreciate the beauty of the real world and how diversity has shaped it over millions and billions of years.

Gw2's diversity is a mere shadow of what it usto be, and that is in itself a mere shadow of what gw1 usto be, and even gw1, a great and highly diverse game is a mere shadow of what it could have been in comparison to the real world, which they could, given the amount of choices, can be realistically achieved.

@wevh.2903 said:I didnt read ur post cuz they r so long im sorry man

They really aren't that long. Perhaps a Tiktok video explanation would be more to your liking?

Pretentious knob. Diversity is wack anyway. Why are we acting like it should even be a goal? We've got more than enough viable builds. Unless it's an organized setting basically anything can work in ranked if you're good enough at the game.

[Downstate.4697]

hah! nerds!

[Swagg.9236]

There is no build diversity in GW2 PvP because there is only one way to play GW2 PvP optimally: passively negate as much personal risk as possible while attacking, and always have an instant "panic button" (or two) to buffer the downtime between your attack rotation window. Therefore, everyone generally either negates all incoming effects while attacking, teleports directly to a target before/while attacking or LoS peaks (ideally from off-screen) while spamming ranged, tab-target attacks. Those are your builds, and yet you somehow have

NINE CLASSES.

You don't really want build diversity anyway; you want playstyle diversity; and you'll never have that if you don't have any real roles established in the first place (or, at the very least, more than three, EXTREMELY homogenous roles that are constantly juggled about in a nine-way wrestling match with temporary victors being determined solely by "balance patches"). The highest skill ceiling in GW2 is basic literacy; just read the patch notes, and you too can become a top player in relatively short order.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Elrond.9486 said:Pretentious knob.Sure you can say i sound pretentious, but you can just go and google everything i said...it's not exactly up for interpretation it's all stuff you can look into yourself....except it's 100 times more complicated because it involves big brain mathematics.

So ya, call me whatever you want...but i really am trying to explain something that's fairly complicated in a very simple way, so that laypeople, including myself can actually understand it.

@Elrond.9486 said:Diversity is wack anyway.

yee bro you know what's not wack? Tik Tok. Sounds like something you would enjoy too.

[NotFound.7813]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Elrond.9486 said:Pretentious knob.Sure you can say i sound pretentious, but you can just go and google everything i said...it's not exactly up for interpretation it's all stuff you can look into yourself....except it's 100 times more complicated because it involves big brain mathematics.

So ya, call me whatever you want...but i really am trying to explain something that's fairly complicated in a very simple way, so that laypeople, including myself can actually understand it.

@Elrond.9486 said:Diversity is wack anyway.

yee bro you know what's not wack? Tik Tok. Sounds like something you would enjoy too.

Imagine sending ppl to watch tik tok when u give cero arguments , all u do is express a bunch of non sense stuff without any correlation with the game , thinking the more u say the more sense u make.

[Gamadorn.2670]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:hah! nerds!

+1 for this post..../15 chars before I get infracted...

[Obtena.7952]

@"Swagg.9236" said:There is no build diversity in GW2 PvP because there is only one way to play GW2 PvP optimally: passively negate as much personal risk as possible while attacking, and always have an instant "panic button" (or two) to buffer the downtime between your attack rotation window. Therefore, everyone generally either negates all incoming effects while attacking, teleports directly to a target before/while attacking or LoS peaks (ideally from off-screen) while spamming ranged, tab-target attacks. Those are your builds, and yet you somehow have

NINE CLASSES.

You don't really want build diversity anyway; you want playstyle diversity; and you'll never have that if you don't have any real roles established in the first place (or, at the very least, more than three, EXTREMELY homogenous roles that are constantly juggled about in a nine-way wrestling match with temporary victors being determined solely by "balance patches"). The highest skill ceiling in GW2 is basic literacy; just read the patch notes, and you too can become a top player in relatively short order.

Nice ... this guy gets it.

[Kaenaydar.5631]

I know i have been seeing it in fractals idk how many times im on Untamed because i like it and in fractals as soon as they see Untamed i get kicked. Or told i should change my armor and build to condi Soul Beast otherwise bad. I thought this game was you play what you like and how you like. Not you play what everyone else likes or else.

[Zekent.3652]

3 hours ago, Kaenaydar.5631 said:

I know i have been seeing it in fractals idk how many times im on Untamed because i like it and in fractals as soon as they see Untamed i get kicked. Or told i should change my armor and build to condi Soul Beast otherwise bad. I thought this game was you play what you like and how you like. Not you play what everyone else likes or else.

This is the PvP forum, fractals are not PvP.

Spellbreaker and Untamed are both (and the only ones) considered PvP specs only since launch, with the difference that Untamed is just far better.

[Eloid.4569]

keep nerfing, maybe when everything just have one button, we reach class diversity.

[Infinity.2876]

Build diversity is like mining. You first have dig through a bunch of rock(not useful or stupid builds)

To get the ore(a cool.build that had an under used trait but due to nerfs it has become more viable than before

[Luthan.5236]

The game mode leades to people trying similar builds cause certain builds are just better in killing others - and then recommended by websites and others will use them as well.

To change this there should be different things to do. Decapping is mainly done by classes like thief though - so they focus on running around while others have either the damage or bunker. In deathmatch mini season you just kill, kill, kill (damage ot trying to stay alive to rezz the others :D) ... or you basically don't change your usual conquest build cause you are too lazy - and go in random.

If actually team work and different objectives were a thing (not capture and holding + killing) - it could lead to different specialized builds for different things.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Damocles.4908]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:21 AM, wevh.2903 said:

List of playable builds

Meta:

Bunker scrapperNades holoDaredevil pdReaperSupport tempest

Half meta:

Support shout warrSymbol core guardianDecap scrapperRenegade shiroBunker renegadeCore condi thiefPower heraldCondi heraldCore necro condi

Some decent builds:DeadeyeScrapper nadesSupport tank core guardian with staff (idk poledra plays this)Sic em soulbeastCondi tank soulbeastDecap druidCondi mirage with rupt mantraChrono misha buildSagebrand teapod build/ maybe symbolbrandS/D daredevilMaybe dh burning here too

Playable builds:Condi reaperEgun holo with demoZerk holo build with elixir rTank condi weaverTank water weaverTank scourgeBurning dhNature magic mender core ranger

Some other builds

Core valk ranger axe dagger / gsSpellbreaker d shield gsCondi berserker (ajaxx build)

Some not that good but u can play them builds:

Mender defense spellbreaker d shield gsCore warr axe shield gsFire weaverBurn core guardianCore gs guardianAll forms of minionmancers aka tanky core or scourge or reaper with minions

Meme builds (lot of ppl actually play this idk why):

Minion tempest buildBerserker rifle or all other forms of yolo zerk one shot berserkerStaff thiefFull trap dh trap runesFull trap core ranger or druid trap runesCondi deadeyePower dh with lg sword shield and trap

There is build variety

Yes some stuff overperforms

 

This is the first time I am revealing "some" of my build which I customly made, and it works quite well. Are you ready? I am play core warr running with dual swords and a rifle and the [kick] ability. The rest I am keeping it a secret. I know it can't beat every build but to say there is no diversity is really not true. It does take trail and error in unranked to get it right and yes there will be times when you try something and it is completly useless.

 

• This is sort of the bench mark I use when judging a new build:
• - Should win 1v1 fights as much as possible.
• - If its a 1v1 that you cant or are not winning, then atleast last long enouph for backup to arrive or delay the guy.
• - Dont dropped dead like a sack of potatoes in a team fight. Balance between giving and taking damage
• - Have a flow of abilities that create "the dance or the waltz" in combat that you have control over.
• - See what everyone else is running and learn their pattern, I have never played any "magic casting" classes, not even necro once yet I recognise the pattern that is often played some even relate to what you mentioned, so when you doing something that is not in the book in terms of a unqiue build, it can completly through the guy off his little repeat combot, example is reaper necro ,as soon as the use reaper form, the sequence is always very similar

good luck

•  

 

[Crozame.4098]

On 9/29/2020 at 4:19 PM, wevh.2903 said:

 

So ya, call me whatever you want...but i really am trying to explain something that's fairly complicated in a very simple way, so that laypeople, including myself can actually understand it.

 

yee bro you know what's not wack? Tik Tok. Sounds like something you would enjoy too.

 

Imagine sending ppl to watch tik tok when u give cero arguments , all u do is express a bunch of non sense stuff without any correlation with the game , thinking the more u say the more sense u make.

wow, there are still ppl in the forum bother to communicate that guy with reason~~~ Impressive.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

What did u expect? Look at the mentality of this games remaining pvp playerbase and add the balancing decisions of anet and u get

1- players constantly asking for nerfs to any class  or mechanics they find annoying, even if it's a matter of them not learning how to counter them. The player won't ask for buffs to their class cuz in a mmo forum anyone asking for buffs gets more "it's fine no need for buff" replies more than anything, even if class is in a horrible spot,so no point. 

2- anet continually nerfs used traits and skills to make the ones not used more attractive, resulting in a less fun, less effective class with less viable builds.

 Gw2 is the only game in the 30 yrs I've gamed where the devs think continually removing things players enjoy using will result in a better more enjoyable game. Anet needs to stop cutting corners as it's ruining their game. Buffing or redesigning unused traits and skills is far more work but will actually improve the game, who woulda thought cutting corners was bad, putting the work in good, it's a early lesson in life for a reason.