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ArenaNet please rethink how you sell the game with Steam release.


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I think it's a bit jarring that people buy the latest expansion yet discover that majority of the story content is still locked behind a paywall, I would argue it's bad first impression.

And paying full price for Season 2 can make some quit for sure. I would say Seasons 3/4 and Icebrood saga are worth the asking price, but having it all just sitting there in Gem store feels off.

Please release some Complete game edition with Steam release which bundles everything up to Icebrood saga, currently it feels like if WoW gave you the expansions, but charged the players for each patch during that expansion. I care for this game and honestly new player experience is probably the most important thing to get right especially for an older MMO.

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I agree that they should offer some sort of 'complete edition' with all the Living World seasons included, although probably under a different name to avoid giving the impression that the game is 'finished' and won't be getting any more expansions.

Of course it would be more expensive than just buying the core game + HoT + PoF, but just having it there would help by signalling that there's more content than just the expansions. Even if someone chooses to get the current version instead at least there's a good chance they'll have seen it and will be prepared for the fact that there's content they haven't purchased yet.

(I also think calling the episodes DLC would help. Most people these days seem to understand that DLC is sold separately and accept that, but because these are just called story episodes it seems to leave the impression that it should be part of the expansion.)

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As a new player who bought PoF, I don't think this is as big an issue as you perceive it to be. I'll admit the experience in the story is a bit jarring when you find out you had to bust out the credit card yet again to experience the full story, but it wasn't bad enough for me to completely stop playing the game. By the time I had moved onto expansion content I'd completely forgotten about it and just rolled with the fact that some story details were missing. At least I know the seasons are available there for me to purchase if I want experience them, which is something I'm considering doing for when I get to that point on a new character. Overall, yes it is a bit odd to experience the story in this way, but it's not bad enough to drive people away and straight up quit the game after already having bought PoF.

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@Chyanne Waters.8719 said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I know the OP tied this into the Steam release, but this suggestion has come up many, many times since long before the Steam release was even mentioned so I don't think it's directly related and I assume if they did do this it would be available for the normal version of the game as well. For some reason almost all suggestions are getting tied into the Steam release recently, even if it's nothing to do with how games run on Steam.

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@Marvellous.4620 said:

@Chyanne Waters.8719 said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I don't really care that it was flawed fir 8 years, it's never too late to make it better. I won't feel scammed after countless of hours of enjoyment the game gave me just because they offered better value for new players.

If a player has countless hours playing the game, then he/she should have plenty of gold to convert to gems to buy LS chapters. They're not that expensive.

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I'm curious about how DLC work in other MMORPGs.

Are they bridging the gap in difficulty/challenge like in Guild Wars 2, or are they something entirely separate? And do note I'm talking about difficulty, nothing to do with story. For example are DLC in ESO harder than the main game, but lower than the expansion, used to bridge core and expansion, or they are something completely standalone?

Because Seasons 1 and 2 are not only used to bridge the story, but the player's ability to play the game too. Is Anet really expecting new players to spend their gold to buy Season 2 in order to be better prepared for HOT? What usually happens (forums are full of posts about it) is players that finish the interactive story experience of core, move on to HOT (or POF, that's also considerably harder than core) and have a hard time. Hard time that could've been better if they the in-between content wasn't behind a paywall.

edit: expecting a player that bought an experience to pay extra in order to enjoy it is terrible business practice. And "collect gold and just buy it" is even worse advice.

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@Chyanne Waters.8719 said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I don't really care that it was flawed fir 8 years, it's never too late to make it better. I won't feel scammed after countless of hours of enjoyment the game gave me just because they offered better value for new players.

If a player has countless hours playing the game, then he/she should have plenty of gold to convert to gems to buy LS chapters. They're not that expensive.

New player probably prioritize other things besides converting Gems, finishing 1-80 story won't yield you nowhere near enough for even 400gems.I'm not saying make it better for me, but communicate game content better for new players.

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@Marvellous.4620 said:

@Chyanne Waters.8719 said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I don't really care that it was flawed fir 8 years, it's never too late to make it better. I won't feel scammed after countless of hours of enjoyment the game gave me just because they offered better value for new players.

If a player has countless hours playing the game, then he/she should have plenty of gold to convert to gems to buy LS chapters. They're not that expensive.

New player probably prioritize other things besides converting Gems, finishing 1-80 story won't yield you nowhere near enough for even 400gems.I'm not saying make it better for me, but communicate game content better for new players.

You may not get enough gems from that, but is there really a need to finish the entire game's story quickly? If you do other activities too it doesn't take long to stockpile a lot of gold to use for living world seasons.

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Sounds like OP is asking for ArenaNet to put LS content in a better all-inclusive package for easy purchase - not asking for LS to be cheaper or free.

In which case heck yeah. LS is overdue to be offered up front at the time someone is purchasing the GW2 so we can finally do away with the unpleasant surprise of finding out you didn't actually buy the whole game.

I've always thought paying for LS was fine, but the way it's packaged right now is goofy and poorly-communicated to new players.

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@Chyanne Waters.8719 said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

Because if it goes to steam as is, it will be a dumpster fire. Steam users are less forgiving or patient and if it gets a huge dookie of a release it likely will never recover; The same was said about core when HoT came out and again when HoT was lumped with PoF for free. I never paid for living world, likely never will unless they make me quit for years but even then id likely not bother.

This bundle ALSO should be brought into the game outside of steam, so that way any new player doesn't have to deal with the shenanigan's we all did. New players> Old players by standards of online games, they are gonna want to capitalize on steam if not then I dont understand why they'd of gone to steam to begin with.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm curious about how DLC work in other MMORPGs.

Are they bridging the gap in difficulty/challenge like in Guild Wars 2, or are they something entirely separate? And do note I'm talking about difficulty, nothing to do with story. For example are DLC in ESO harder than the main game, but lower than the expansion, used to bridge core and expansion, or they are something completely standalone?

Because Seasons 1 and 2 are not only used to bridge the story, but the player's ability to play the game too. Is Anet really expecting new players to spend their gold to buy Season 2 in order to be better prepared for HOT? What usually happens (forums are full of posts about it) is players that finish the interactive story experience of core, move on to HOT (or POF, that's also considerably harder than core) and have a hard time. Hard time that could've been better if they the in-between content wasn't behind a paywall.

edit: expecting a player that bought an experience to pay extra in order to enjoy it is terrible business practice. And "collect gold and just buy it" is even worse advice.

Elder Scrolls Online DLC is generally harder than the expansions. They insist on forcing new players (and anyone starting a new character) to start in the latest expansion, so they have to function as starter maps as well as end-game maps. That's possible because the game scales everyone up to max level everywhere in the world, but the scaling only affects stats, so enemies in expansion maps have to stick to very basic mechanics and limited AI to accommodate new players with few skills unlocked and mismatched equipment. It's a bad system for a number of reasons and not one I'd like any other game to emulate. (Players have been asking them to change it since the first expansion was in development, but those requests have always been ignored.)

Other than that 2 of 3 DLCs each year are just a pair of dungeon paths, which are designed to be harder than base-game dungeons. Even people who like them keep asking for a way to exclude them when doing a random dungeon for the daily so they can have an easier/faster run and a lot of players skip them entirely. The 3rd DLC is a story/map release like GW2's living story, but can be slightly harder than the expansion or base-game starter maps because new players aren't forced to start there.

I don't think it's really comparable to the living story at all, it's very much designed as additional content for players with max level characters rather than something which bridges the gap between expansion releases. But I'm not sure what other games do with their DLC. I haven't played another MMO besides GW1 & 2 and ESO since before DLC existed. (Back when I had to go to a physical shop to buy another CD to get the new stuff for Ultima Online!)

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@Danikat.8537 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm curious about how DLC work in other MMORPGs.

Are they bridging the gap in difficulty/challenge like in Guild Wars 2, or are they something entirely separate? And do note I'm talking about difficulty, nothing to do with story. For example are DLC in ESO harder than the main game, but lower than the expansion, used to bridge core and expansion, or they are something completely standalone?

Because Seasons 1 and 2 are not only used to bridge the story, but the player's ability to play the game too. Is Anet really expecting new players to spend their gold to buy Season 2 in order to be better prepared for HOT? What usually happens (forums are full of posts about it) is players that finish the interactive story experience of core, move on to HOT (or POF, that's also considerably harder than core) and have a hard time. Hard time that could've been better if they the in-between content wasn't behind a paywall.

edit: expecting a player that bought an experience to pay extra in order to enjoy it is terrible business practice. And "collect gold and just buy it" is even worse advice.

Elder Scrolls Online DLC is generally harder than the expansions. They insist on forcing new players (and anyone starting a new character) to start in the latest expansion, so they have to function as starter maps as well as end-game maps. That's possible because the game scales everyone up to max level everywhere in the world, but the scaling only affects stats, so enemies in expansion maps have to stick to very basic mechanics and limited AI to accommodate new players with few skills unlocked and mismatched equipment. It's a bad system for a number of reasons and not one I'd like any other game to emulate. (Players have been asking them to change it since the first expansion was in development, but those requests have always been ignored.)

Other than that 2 of 3 DLCs each year are just a pair of dungeon paths, which are designed to be harder than base-game dungeons. Even people who like them keep asking for a way to exclude them when doing a random dungeon for the daily so they can have an easier/faster run and a lot of players skip them entirely. The 3rd DLC is a story/map release like GW2's living story, but can be slightly harder than the expansion or base-game starter maps because new players aren't forced to start there.

I don't think it's really comparable to the living story at all, it's very much designed as additional content for players with max level characters rather than something which bridges the gap between expansion releases. But I'm not sure what other games do with their DLC. I haven't played another MMO besides GW1 & 2 and ESO since before DLC existed. (Back when I had to go to a physical shop to buy another CD to get the new stuff for Ultima Online!)

Thanks for that. I gave ESO as an example because I read in other posts about "the living world is like ESO DLC, and since ESO DLC requires payment, so should the living world". In a sense DLC in ESO is harder than the rest of the game and at the same time they are "additional content" with no implications on the story. Nothing like our living world which is essential to bridge the gap between the core game and the expansions in terms of difficulty (talking about S2).

By the way on the subject of ESO DLC, do they revisit those DLCs or they are a "fire and forget" deal like our living world? I will never forgive the sorry state of Gandara on release of Long Live the Lich, even the developers admitted they didn't have enough time to do it justice. Yet, since it's living world content (aka release then forget it exists unless it's too rewarding and needs nerfs) they never went back to "fix" it and turn Gandara into the glorious place it deserves to be.

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A lot of people seem to be objecting to this because they assume it would mean the living story is free for new players, but to me 'complete edition' still implies paid, just as a bundle.

Currently you can buy the base game + HoT + PoF for £25.99, the Deluxe edition for £47.99 or the Ultimate Edition for £69.99 which comes with 4000 gems. Then you pay a total of 3,200 gems for Season 2, 3 and 4. 3,200 gems costs £34. So what if as well as the current options there was a 'complete edition' with the base game + HoT + PoF + Season 2, 3 and 4 for £60? It's the same price as buying the standard edition and then buying the seasons separately but it puts it all into one up-front transaction for those who want it.

This is also why I think it needs a name other than 'complete edition' because it would still be missing season 5, I'm not sure there's a practical way to include that when it's still being released (which I think is why the complete unlock isn't in the gem store). Maybe something like "Guild Wars 2: The story so far" or simply "Living World Edition"?

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@"Danikat.8537" said:A lot of people seem to be objecting to this because they assume it would mean the living story is free for new players, but to me 'complete edition' still implies paid, just as a bundle.

Currently you can buy the base game + HoT + PoF for £25.99, the Deluxe edition for £47.99 or the Ultimate Edition for £69.99 which comes with 4000 gems. Then you pay a total of 3,200 gems for Season 2, 3 and 4. 3,200 gems costs £34. So what if as well as the current options there was a 'complete edition' with the base game + HoT + PoF + Season 2, 3 and 4 for £60? It's the same price as buying the standard edition and then buying the seasons separately but it puts it all into one up-front transaction for those who want it.

This is also why I think it needs a name other than 'complete edition' because it would still be missing season 5, I'm not sure there's a practical way to include that when it's still being released (which I think is why the complete unlock isn't in the gem store). Maybe something like "Guild Wars 2: The story so far" or simply "Living World Edition"?

This is a great idea but it doesn't solve the main problem of not having living world available: the jump in difficulty. Missing Season 3 isn't really a problem, other than missing story parts, and missing Season 4 also isn't a big issue. The main problem comes with jumping from core to HOT and having a more expensive "complete bundle" won't really help in that. I mean a player pays for HOT+POF yet if they try to go from core to HOT (or POF, it's not like the jump from core to POF is small) they might be unhappy as they are destroyed by the mobs there (forums are full of threads on the subject). Making Season 2 (and only Season 2) completely free with purchase of an expansion will provide content between core and the expansions, shortening the massive gap, not a perfect solution, but I think Season 2 IS easier than expansion content and at the same time harder than core.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:A lot of people seem to be objecting to this because they assume it would mean the living story is free for new players, but to me 'complete edition' still implies paid, just as a bundle.

Currently you can buy the base game + HoT + PoF for £25.99, the Deluxe edition for £47.99 or the Ultimate Edition for £69.99 which comes with 4000 gems. Then you pay a total of 3,200 gems for Season 2, 3 and 4. 3,200 gems costs £34. So what if as well as the current options there was a 'complete edition' with the base game + HoT + PoF + Season 2, 3 and 4 for £60? It's the same price as buying the standard edition and then buying the seasons separately but it puts it all into one up-front transaction for those who want it.

This is also why I think it needs a name other than 'complete edition' because it would still be missing season 5, I'm not sure there's a practical way to include that when it's still being released (which I think is why the complete unlock isn't in the gem store). Maybe something like "Guild Wars 2: The story so far" or simply "Living World Edition"?

This is a great idea but it doesn't solve the main problem of not having living world available: the jump in difficulty. Missing Season 3 isn't really a problem, other than missing story parts, and missing Season 4 also isn't a big issue. The main problem comes with jumping from core to HOT and having a more expensive "complete bundle" won't really help in that. I mean a player pays for HOT+POF yet if they try to go from core to HOT (or POF, it's not like the jump from core to POF is small) they might be unhappy as they are destroyed by the mobs there (forums are full of threads on the subject). Making Season 2 (and only Season 2) completely free with purchase of an expansion will provide content between core and the expansions, shortening the massive gap, not a perfect solution, but I think Season 2 IS easier than expansion content and at the same time harder than core.

In my opinion, it seems that a lot of new players make that jump to HoT or PoF because it is billed as end-game content and they end up rushing to get there. I'm not sure such players would even bother with S2, even if it were free.

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:A lot of people seem to be objecting to this because they assume it would mean the living story is free for new players, but to me 'complete edition' still implies paid, just as a bundle.

Currently you can buy the base game + HoT + PoF for £25.99, the Deluxe edition for £47.99 or the Ultimate Edition for £69.99 which comes with 4000 gems. Then you pay a total of 3,200 gems for Season 2, 3 and 4. 3,200 gems costs £34. So what if as well as the current options there was a 'complete edition' with the base game + HoT + PoF + Season 2, 3 and 4 for £60? It's the same price as buying the standard edition and then buying the seasons separately but it puts it all into one up-front transaction for those who want it.

This is also why I think it needs a name other than 'complete edition' because it would still be missing season 5, I'm not sure there's a practical way to include that when it's still being released (which I think is why the complete unlock isn't in the gem store). Maybe something like "Guild Wars 2: The story so far" or simply "Living World Edition"?

This is a great idea but it doesn't solve the main problem of not having living world available: the jump in difficulty. Missing Season 3 isn't really a problem, other than missing story parts, and missing Season 4 also isn't a big issue. The main problem comes with jumping from core to HOT and having a more expensive "complete bundle" won't really help in that. I mean a player pays for HOT+POF yet if they try to go from core to HOT (or POF, it's not like the jump from core to POF is small) they might be unhappy as they are destroyed by the mobs there (forums are full of threads on the subject). Making Season 2 (and only Season 2) completely free with purchase of an expansion will provide content between core and the expansions, shortening the massive gap, not a perfect solution, but I think Season 2 IS easier than expansion content and at the same time harder than core.

In my opinion, it seems that a lot of new players make that jump to HoT or PoF because it is billed as end-game content and they end up rushing to get there. I'm not sure such players would even bother with S2, even if it were free.

S2 would also be "end game" content. I mean it already is, Dry Top and Silverwastes is available to everyone and so is Southsun Cove, but since there is no story that takes you there players skip it. As for rushing, the posts on the forums are usually about players that finished Core, asked "what now?" and found out that only the expansion content was there, so I don't think rushing has anything to do with it. If S2 is made free and directs players that finish the Core game there, then the gap will be significantly shortened. I'm sure all those players will actually bother with S2 if it was free, after all in most (all?) posts on the subject players are calling themselves "casual" and "enjoying the story", not "looking for end game" type of player.

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There is nothing wrong with purchasing LWS content for real money.

This franchise is based on buy-to-play. If players do not want to buy it, don't. It is up to them.

ArenaNet are not going to give stuff out for free and people should stop expecting it. The fact you get an entire expansion free with PoF is more than generous.

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There should be a "up to date" edition sold I think. Most people including myself was in for a surprise when I found out to get access to a lot of relevant areas for ascendant gear farming you have to pay to unlock stories. Anet should make people aware that a big chunk of the game is locked and needs real $$ to be unlocked. And I say real $$$ because lets be honest a new player is not going to have the gold to buy large amount of gems.

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@Marvellous.4620 said:I think it's a bit jarring that people buy the latest expansion yet discover that majority of the story content is still locked behind a paywall, I would argue it's bad first impression.

Yes, I believe this is not the best experience for new players. And of course it is inconsistent and hard to understand. You get HoT for free when you now buy PoF but you still have to additionally purchase the living story from HoT and PoF if you want to play all the content that is related to HoT and PoF.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Marvellous.4620 said:I think it's a bit jarring that people buy the latest expansion yet discover that majority of the story content is still locked behind a paywall, I would argue it's bad first impression.

Yes, I believe this is not the best experience for new players. And of course it is inconsistent and hard to understand. You get HoT for free when you now buy PoF but you still have to additionally purchase the living story from HoT and PoF if you want to play all the content that is related to HoT and PoF.

most of s1 cant be replayed, and that puts a bigger hole into the story than the other seasons, if you ask me. i know, there are the fractals that cover some of it, but they got changed a good bit, and the visions of the past are just 4 instances bring just some patchy knowledge. you also dont even need to buy gems for s2 and later, as you can just convert gold :V

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