ArenaNet please rethink how you sell the game with Steam release.

[keenedge.9675]

1) I think it's great that Anet GIVES DLC to active players. Keep playing, earn the benefits. The game benefits from having more active players in the community.2) GW2 season episodes (DLCs) also offer in-game advantages to the players that take advantage of them. They aren't just story modules. In S3 and S4, each one brought a new map as well.3) I quit playing DDO because all of the active content people frequented was behind a DLC. That game was not good enough for me to want to invest more. The graphics of the game were an eye strain. Plus, buying DLC did not bring any enrichment to the overall gameplay.4) An RPG is heavily based on exploration and story, not grinding dungeons or other minor instanced content. GW2 was designed to be a community game.

[Fuchslein.8639]

But didn't most people here get the EPisodes for free? The episodes are free when they come out, to activate.

So what many people write here sounds very questionable to me and more so "I don't begrudge it to anyone".Especially because there was never any talk about free episodes, but only about easier access.

For me as a re-starter HOT and especially POF are no real problem, even without the in-between-stories(Becaus I know that I'm not interested in the story itself, because I find it boring). But I can remember when I first played gw2 4 or 5 years ago and found out that S2 was not included in the game price and how fucked up I felt. I bought the highest package and was charged again if I wanted to know the complete story ...Sorry, nobody can change my mind. This is terribly communicated and handled by Anet.

[Khalisto.5780]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm curious about how DLC work in other MMORPGs.

Are they bridging the gap in difficulty/challenge like in Guild Wars 2, or are they something entirely separate? And do note I'm talking about difficulty, nothing to do with story. For example are DLC in ESO harder than the main game, but lower than the expansion, used to bridge core and expansion, or they are something completely standalone?

Because Seasons 1 and 2 are not only used to bridge the story, but the player's ability to play the game too. Is Anet really expecting new players to spend their gold to buy Season 2 in order to be better prepared for HOT? What usually happens (forums are full of posts about it) is players that finish the interactive story experience of core, move on to HOT (or POF, that's also considerably harder than core) and have a hard time. Hard time that could've been better if they the in-between content wasn't behind a paywall.

edit: expecting a player that bought an experience to pay extra in order to enjoy it is terrible business practice. And "collect gold and just buy it" is even worse advice.

From my experience new content in othet mmos just bring you challenges with higher numbers, dmg, hp, etc, making your current gear obsolete.

They will be harder cuz your stats are low at first, once you get more and more of the new gear it'll get easier.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I have to agree that the addition of a "complete edition" purchase for all past seasons would present a better impression of the game. Compilations of past content can be considered standard for the MMO genre since the godfather of MMO's has been doing it since BC was getting dated.

I wouldn't be surprised if ANet is reluctant to offer a compilation since they offered the season episodes for free to players active during the episode's release period. I also wouldn't be surprised that if they did offer a compilation, players who paid piecemeal for the seasons would demand "compensation."

[mercury ranique.2170]

@Marvellous.4620 said:I think it's a bit jarring that people buy the latest expansion yet discover that majority of the story content is still locked behind a paywall, I would argue it's bad first impression.

I would turn it around. You buy the latest expansion and get every expansion and core game before that for free. I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

The only thing that should be communicated properly should be that there is additional content that you do not get for free AND the price to get that last bit of content for free as well. (50 euro or in game grind). As long as this is clear it should be fine in my opinion.

and no matter how big of a message you slap on it, there will be people not reading up on what they are buying and wining bout not getting it for free. Just a message before buying on steam should be enough here!

[maddoctor.2738]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

[Danikat.8537]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

It's because Season 2 has 8 episodes and Seasons 3 and 4 have 6. Episodes are 200 gems each, and there's a 20% discount for buying the whole season together.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

I would kindly ask you to stay on topic. This discussion is about content being lokced behind a paywall is a bad thing when going to steam (atleast that is the OP's opinions). A discussion about the pricing itself is a very different one. We had this discussion often as well. If you want to continue this discussion use the search function or start a seperate topic about it (looking forward to giving my opinion on that subject there, feel free to tag me!)

[sokeenoppa.5384]

They could just do what they did with hot. If you buy pof you will get all the previous content for free.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:They could just do what they did with hot. If you buy pof you will get all the previous content for free.

No they did not and that is what this discussion is about. If you buy PoF you get HoT and the main game (without the F2P limitations) for free, but not the living world seasons.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:They could just do what they did with hot. If you buy pof you will get all the previous content for free.

No they did not and that is what this discussion is about. If you buy PoF you get HoT and the main game (without the F2P limitations) for free, but not the living world seasons.

Yes thats what I meant, wording was just bad.

[Fuchslein.8639]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:They could just do what they did with hot. If you buy pof you will get all the previous content for free.

That would be nice. Then probably more people like me, zero interest in the story, but in the rewards would buy the episodes.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

@Marvellous.4620 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Marvellous.4620 said:

@"Chyanne Waters.8719" said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I don't really care that it was flawed fir 8 years, it's never too late to make it better. I won't feel scammed after countless of hours of enjoyment the game gave me just because they offered better value for new players.

If a player has countless hours playing the game, then he/she should have plenty of gold to convert to gems to buy LS chapters. They're not that expensive.

New player probably prioritize other things besides converting Gems, finishing 1-80 story won't yield you nowhere near enough for even 400gems.I'm not saying make it better for me, but communicate game content better for new players.

I have to agree at least communicate how Living Season (Living World) are tied into this game and make that clear when buyer are going to decide to buy GW2 and expansion. Just a small notification in a corner isn't a good way to prepare that they need to turn Gold into Gems or use real money to purchase Gems to get those parts of story and maps to continue with expansion. It is confusing for new player what is what and this need to be more clearly explained. Steam community understand terms like DLC better then expansion or LW/LS. Expansion here work as passes (in some game a term for a collection of DLC that have been packages into a Season Pass).

As can seen from this older thread even the term Season Pass have been changing over time, but today means a collection of DLCs and items that might not be sold as DLC on its own (tied to Season Pass).

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/598198356188132578/

@Danikat.8537 This discussion have been up for many years, but it doesn't mean in the light of now being sold through Steam Store that this isn't an important discussion as we can expect to see a lot of new player that will use their experience from other games sold in Steam Store (even player that have never played other MMOs) here on forum and I am pretty sure that you will get tired to explain the same thing over and over for these new player.

Costumer Support will also get over loaded with those new players that might be unhappy that they will need to purchase LW to keep up with story and open up maps that on main map looks very empty and with large holes in it. Steam Store do also have a refund policy, so it is important to give those costumers enough information to avoid unnecessary surprises.

The best option would to use Steam's Season Pass as a term that are known for Steam community and players that buy games through that Store for those LW parts and sell it as an option in that store with a price that are the same as when bought in Gem Store or to explain it the sub forum in a sticky how this actually work (need to be on front page for this games Steam Store).

When ESO changed their business model and also sold their game through Steam Store it created issues with what people did expect and even today player have trouble to understand when it is sale on Crowns you can not buy those Crown in Zenimax (ESO) and use those on client that are tied to Steam. Those are two different stores which confuse player that are new to ESO. A potential buyer of ESO need to decide if they want to buy it on Steam and then need to purchases all their future Crowns from same place or be depending on Zenimax ESO page to get updates and sales (and can not mix between both when the one is better then the other), to large degree sales and updates are synchronized for PC between both stores. ANet need to avoid that this create unnecessary confusion to offload its Costumer Service.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Danikat.8537 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

It's because Season 2 has 8 episodes and Seasons 3 and 4 have 6. Episodes are 200 gems each, and there's a 20% discount for buying the whole season together.

I don't think Season 2 episodes have the same value as Season 3 or Season 4 episodes, especially considering the important role Season 2 plays in bridging the gap between the core game and the expansions.

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

I would kindly ask you to stay on topic. This discussion is about content being lokced behind a paywall is a bad thing when going to steam (atleast that is the OP's opinions). A discussion about the pricing itself is a very different one. We had this discussion often as well. If you want to continue this discussion use the search function or start a seperate topic about it (looking forward to giving my opinion on that subject there, feel free to tag me!)

You should read the OP again to understand the topic being discussed

And paying full price for Season 2 can make some quit for sure. I would say Seasons 3/4 and Icebrood saga are worth the asking price, but having it all just sitting there in Gem store feels off.

The "value" of Season 2 is part of the topic and the argument here is that it's completely out of proportion compared to the other season offerings. And given how it's the FIRST Season that a new player will interact with does require some extra attention.

edit: it's also interesting that you gave this comment:

unless they are cheap and want everything for free!

assuming people are "cheap" when they find the pricing of Seasons (especially Season 2) unacceptable. Is someone "cheap" to you if they expect something with the woeful amount of content like Season 2 to be less expensive?

[Ledi.9742]

all in one bundle would be real nice (or even some "hey, this expansion stuff you are purchasing isnt all of it, press here to add the rest of the currently available story content to your purchase for this price" thing). i often try to get my friends join the game, and i have found that its really discouraging for them to discover that even after buying expansions, they still have to buy whole bunch of separate stuff to get all of the story. it would be easier and nicer for everyone involved to be able to press purchase button once, and be done with it.

[Danikat.8537]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I would not see any reasons why people would be jarring (unless they are cheap and want everything for free!).

That's all well and good, but can someone explain why Season 2 story costs 1280 gems while Season 3 and 4 cost 960 gems. The Season 2 complete package unlocks just the story, since the maps are available to everyone, while Season 3 and 4 unlock all their respective maps as well as the story. Season 3/4 has more story, more maps, more content in general, and they cost less than Season 2. It's really weird that the Season that should be the cheapest, because it bridges core with expansion content in terms of difficulty, is the most expensive.

Edit: Season 2 costs 435 gold or 16$ (20$ for 1600, then use 1280 of those to buy it), both are a really high price to pay for a fresh level 80 player that just finished the personal story and simply wants to experience the content that bridges the gap with the first expansion.

It's because Season 2 has 8 episodes and Seasons 3 and 4 have 6. Episodes are 200 gems each, and there's a 20% discount for buying the whole season together.

I don't think Season 2 episodes have the same value as Season 3 or Season 4 episodes, especially considering the important role Season 2 plays in bridging the gap between the core game and the expansions.

I don't think it makes sense either, but as far as I know that is the reasoning - it's literally priced according to the number of episodes, with no regard for what you get as part of them.

[Ayrilana.1396]

LS3 bridges the gap between HoT and PoF expansions and LS4/5 will do the same between PoF and EoD. I don't see LS2 being any different in that regard.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

@"Chyanne Waters.8719" said:Why should people on steam get breaks that people who have played this game for 8+years will not get

I don't think they are suggesting Steam users get a break.

The living worlds should be in the Steam DLC tab though, not in the gem-shop. That way, people will be fully aware there is story-based DLC to be had.

They aren't advertised well at all, and people unfamiliar with the game will not know that they are integral to understanding the story. That miscommunication doesn't need to be there at all. And it certainly could be detrimental to reviews/sales.

Just put them in the Steam DLC section and make a "complete" edition that prices them together with the game+expansions.

And for that matter, advertise them better in the gem shop.

[Atomos.7593]

From my experience and everyone that I know who has used Steam, Steam users are used to many additional DLCs being available to purchase for many games. A listing in the DLC tabs and a complete edition with an appropriate price would be nice though.

[robertthebard.8150]

Show of hands: How many people posting here already have Steam accounts? Raises hand

What is it about Steam that makes people believe, reading through the last half of this page, that Steam players just won't be able to handle HoT or PoF if they don't get LW 2 for free? Purely speculation on my part, but it sounds more like "I'm going to get it through Steam when I can, but I don't want to lay out that extra cash". "But Rob, what about the new players??". Hi, I was one of those. I bought HoT and PoF, and then bought the LWS. I wasn't put out, I understood that DLC and the like are sold separately from the main game, and with all the fuss about DLCs and other monetization floating around the big bad web, including on Steam's own forums, you can bet that most, if not all of the players that do come over from Steam as new players will already understand that.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Show of hands: How many people posting here already have Steam accounts? Raises hand

What is it about Steam that makes people believe, reading through the last half of this page, that Steam players just won't be able to handle HoT or PoF if they don't get LW 2 for free? Purely speculation on my part, but it sounds more like "I'm going to get it through Steam when I can, but I don't want to lay out that extra cash". "But Rob, what about the new players??". Hi, I was one of those. I bought HoT and PoF, and then bought the LWS. I wasn't put out, I understood that DLC and the like are sold separately from the main game, and with all the fuss about DLCs and other monetization floating around the big bad web, including on Steam's own forums, you can bet that most, if not all of the players that do come over from Steam as new players will already understand that.

People are only thinking from their point of view

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LS3 bridges the gap between HoT and PoF expansions and LS4/5 will do the same between PoF and EoD. I don't see LS2 being any different in that regard.

You see no difference between going from HOT to POF and going from Core to HOT? Someone that finished HOT will have no issue playing in POF, but that's not the same as going from Core to HOT. Talking about a performance/challenge gap here, not a story gap

[Ayrilana.1396]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LS3 bridges the gap between HoT and PoF expansions and LS4/5 will do the same between PoF and EoD. I don't see LS2 being any different in that regard.

You see no difference between going from HOT to POF and going from Core to HOT? Someone that finished HOT will have no issue playing in POF, but that's not the same as going from Core to HOT. Talking about a performance/challenge gap here, not a story gap

There were players who played LS2 that still struggled when playing HoT. Playing on the LS2 maps is also sufficient. All that’s locked behind LS2 is the story and some achievements.

[jokke.6239]

I also find it odd that they give away Heart of Thorns for free. It's still relevant to the game and people would still buy it.It's not like WoW where they might as well just give it away since no one would buy them (except very few players) because it's not relevant anymore for endgame.Instead people who thought they got all content suddenly learn they have to buy that expansion anyway, since it will cost you about the same.It's possible to earn it in-game at least, if you are patient enough.I can only come to the conclusion that it's designed this way, they want players to think they have all content with their purchase for a cheap price.

So yeah, at the end of the day I think it comes down to getting players invested.They did it first with f2p.Now a f2p players is more likely to spent 30$ than 60$After they spent this money they will be more motivated to play and not quit the game.When they finally reach endgame they will have to buy living story (about same cost as the expansion), and are now much more willing to do so.

And I think it works.

In a perfect world they wouldn't have to do this, but they are a business at the end of the day. And with how consumer friendly the game is besides this, I don't really hold it against them if it helps to make the game make the profit they need to keep the lights on.If we want no sub fee and in-game earnable MTX still, I think this is just something we will have to accept we want the game to keep making profits.And the game NEEDS new players to stay profitable. Many players in the game now have zero motivation to purchase anything since they can buy it all with gold.

Don't forget that we only have to purchase expansions, we still can also purchase living story with gold (allthough hard for new players) and the game has zero P2W.Now compare that to the competition.World of Warcraft and FFXIV has Sub fee, game cost, expansion cost, MTX that is not earnable in-game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LS3 bridges the gap between HoT and PoF expansions and LS4/5 will do the same between PoF and EoD. I don't see LS2 being any different in that regard.

You see no difference between going from HOT to POF and going from Core to HOT? Someone that finished HOT will have no issue playing in POF, but that's not the same as going from Core to HOT. Talking about a performance/challenge gap here, not a story gap

There were players who played LS2 that still struggled when playing HoT. Playing on the LS2 maps is also sufficient. All that’s locked behind LS2 is the story and some achievements.

You are right, all that's locked behind the purchase of LS2 is the story. But there is nothing directing players to those LS2 maps, even if the use the instant level 80 booster. They could find a way to "direct" players that finish Core to those LS2 maps, or even Southsun Cove before that. Up until that point the Personal Story was responsible to direct players to the next level appropriate zone, but that doesn't work once you complete the story. Because as it is, right after you kill Zhaitan you are "sent" to Verdant Brink by the story. And there is a rather sizeable gap there