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There a reason that ES weapons are still restricted to ES? - [Merged]


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The way its set up is you start out with a set of weapons for your profession in the core game. For each expansion a new weapon and skills are made for each profession. It could be a 2 handed weapon or one available for use in a certain hand. This way you can play differently from before, and play like you did as you progress through the game.

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@"Kodama.6453" said:Why would I ever want to run sword/shield over hammer? I don't see a reason for it.Or if you just want power burst, you can use rifle for blunderbuss and jump shot.Without heat, sword just can't compete with our other power options.

Shield provides Protection with Overshield traitShield provides a 2.5s Block (Which stuns attackers) and 3s Proj Reflect (Vs Hammer's 2s block and 1s Proj Reflect)Shield provides a knockback that is also a Blast finisherShield provides a double Daze

There's a reason why literally every Heal Scrapper is running Pistol/Shield and it's not because Pistol MH is worth anything.

Beyond this... This is a single case where in specifically a min/max PvE Power DPS build, Sword on Engie is sub-optimal (Disregarding the fact that non-Holosmith builds are already sub-optimal for DPS on Engie). Not bad, not unplayable, just sub-optimal like 99.9999% of players in the game.

This doesn't necessarily provide a meaningful argument against unlocked E-Spec weapons. Where even the weapon that is literally linked to an E-Spec mechanic with further synergy provided in an E-Spec trait, still isn't that bad when used in other builds and would actually see some play in various builds.

There are of course other weapons that would be "Suboptimal" when used outside of their designated E-Spec, but that's also not an issue. People will have fun playing with the builds they make just like always, because not everyone is a META player.

Relevant issues would be cases where things would be broken (Like, what if Firebrand with a Longbow is secretly OP) or cause additional work to implement (Such as the additional skills required for Weaver) rather than "It wouldn't be META"

Since, if things that aren't META are reasons against them being in game, then we'd need to remove like 90% of Core weapons, Utilities, Dragonhunter's Longbow and Necromancer as a whole...

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@Taril.8619 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Why would I ever want to run sword/shield over hammer? I don't see a reason for it.Or if you just want power burst, you can use rifle for blunderbuss and jump shot.Without heat, sword just can't compete with our other power options.

Shield provides Protection with Overshield traitShield provides a 2.5s Block (Which stuns attackers) and 3s Proj Reflect (Vs Hammer's 2s block and 1s Proj Reflect)Shield provides a knockback that is also a Blast finisherShield provides a double Daze

There's a reason why literally every Heal Scrapper is running Pistol/Shield and it's not because Pistol MH is worth anything.

Beyond this... This is a single case where in specifically a min/max PvE Power DPS build, Sword on Engie is sub-optimal (Disregarding the fact that non-Holosmith builds are already sub-optimal for DPS on Engie). Not
bad
, not
unplayable
, just
sub-optimal
like 99.9999% of players in the game.

This doesn't necessarily provide a meaningful argument against unlocked E-Spec weapons. Where even the weapon that is literally linked to an E-Spec mechanic with further synergy provided in an E-Spec trait, still isn't
that
bad when used in other builds and would actually see some play in various builds.

There are of course other weapons that would be "Suboptimal" when used outside of their designated E-Spec, but that's also not an issue. People will have fun playing with the builds they make just like always, because not everyone is a META player.

Relevant issues would be cases where things would be broken (Like, what if Firebrand with a Longbow is secretly OP) or cause additional work to implement (Such as the additional skills required for Weaver) rather than "It wouldn't be META"

Since, if things that aren't META are reasons against them being in game, then we'd need to remove like 90% of Core weapons, Utilities, Dragonhunter's Longbow and Necromancer as a whole...

Yes, there is a reason heal scrapper is using shield and pistol.And having access to sword would also be meaningless for heal scrapper, since that spec is camping med kit most of the time to do it's job, which is healing and just swaps out to get the utility from the shield.

The mainhand weapon doesn't matter for that build, sword will just be as irrelevant on it as pistol.

Can you provide a single example of a build where someone would want to run sword as a mainhand weapon without access to heat? I can't come up with a single build that would want that, since there are better options available, especially if you also unlock hammer on all builds at the same time.

And that is my main problem here. Sword wouldn't be utilised in any non-meme build outside of holosmith. Which means that engineer is treated unfairly at this point, since there are quite alot of classes with elite spec weapons which are not as heavily restricted without their elite spec as holo's sword.

Unfair treatment is definitely a reason for me to be against this system.The other points you mention, like having secretly OP combinations of specs and weapons, is also very valid and another point why I am against such change.But I just wanted to point out that as an engineer main I would feel treated unfairly by this change, since sword is so intertwined with heat.

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@"Fractured.3928" said:To me it seems silly that Elite Spec weapons are still tied to Elite Specs. Sure, the weapons obviously benefit from those specs, but there are weapons that I far prefer to continue using with other specs.

My two big examples is, I LOVE the Necro's two handed sword, and I don't want to lose it just because I want to try the new ES.

And if Mesmer actually manages to get a main hand pistol, I DEFINITELY want that, but I love Chronomancer so much.

I just want to play with the weapons I want, while using the ES that I enjoy the most. And I don't particularly see a reason for it to be forced like it continues to be. My damage might get hit a bit, but I'm a super casual, so don't really care.Here is a simplistic answer:Druid on Ranger offers a significant mobility buff via staff 4Druid on Soulbeast offers a significant mobility buff via merging with a bird petEither of those is Strong.Both of those is Busted.

If you are as fond of Greatsword on Necro as you claim, then you can probably imagine a couple of interactions between the Scourge Shades and GS that would be absolutely broken.The elite specs all give ways to address certain missing elements to a core class. Sometimes this is done via class mechanic, sometimes this is done via trait and often this is done via the elite spec's weapon.Changing this isn't a case of putting a square peg in a round hole and lowering a casual player's DPS. Changing this is often erasing the hole in the first place creating interactions that are far too strong, leading to aberrant and degenerate play styles.

Doing this is bad for the game, and doing it just because you "LOVE the Necro's two handed sword" is a poor reason.

Buy another equipment loadout or roll another toon.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Trise.2865 said:This is a thing because many ESpec weapon skills are tied in to the Elite Spec's mechanic. They would not work correctly without it.

This here.

While some of OP's examples might work well, like a core necro using greatsword, there are some classes which would end up with the weapon being a useless addition for the other specs.That's not a problem. The only problem would be if they were
too
useful. And that is unlikely to happen if the sharing would happen only between espec and core, and not between different especs (because core builds are just way too weak compared to especs, so even if addition to an espec weapons might make some of them a bit better, they still would not become so good it would be a problem).

@mindcircus.1506 said:Here is a simplistic answer:Druid on Ranger offers a significant mobility buff via staff 4Druid on Soulbeast offers a significant mobility buff via merging with a bird petEither of those is Strong.Both of those is Busted.Staff offers a mobility buff with skill 4, but you pay for it with a nerf to everything
else
(other functions of staff are useful practically only to heal druid). Losing the use of a whole weapon in exchange for a mobility buff is a very fair trade.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Why would I ever want to run sword/shield over hammer? I don't see a reason for it.Or if you just want power burst, you can use rifle for blunderbuss and jump shot.Without heat, sword just can't compete with our other power options.

Shield provides Protection with Overshield traitShield provides a 2.5s Block (Which stuns attackers) and 3s Proj Reflect (Vs Hammer's 2s block and 1s Proj Reflect)Shield provides a knockback that is also a Blast finisherShield provides a double Daze

There's a reason why literally every Heal Scrapper is running Pistol/Shield and it's not because Pistol MH is worth anything.

Beyond this... This is a single case where in specifically a min/max PvE Power DPS build, Sword on Engie is sub-optimal (Disregarding the fact that non-Holosmith builds are already sub-optimal for DPS on Engie). Not
bad
, not
unplayable
, just
sub-optimal
like 99.9999% of players in the game.

This doesn't necessarily provide a meaningful argument against unlocked E-Spec weapons. Where even the weapon that is literally linked to an E-Spec mechanic with further synergy provided in an E-Spec trait, still isn't
that
bad when used in other builds and would actually see some play in various builds.

There are of course other weapons that would be "Suboptimal" when used outside of their designated E-Spec, but that's also not an issue. People will have fun playing with the builds they make just like always, because not everyone is a META player.

Relevant issues would be cases where things would be broken (Like, what if Firebrand with a Longbow is secretly OP) or cause additional work to implement (Such as the additional skills required for Weaver) rather than "It wouldn't be META"

Since, if things that aren't META are reasons against them being in game, then we'd need to remove like 90% of Core weapons, Utilities, Dragonhunter's Longbow and Necromancer as a whole...

Yes, there is a reason heal scrapper is using shield and pistol.And having access to sword would also be meaningless for heal scrapper, since that spec is camping med it most of the time to do it's job, which is healing and just swaps out to get the utility from the shield.

The mainhand weapon doesn't matter for that build, sword will just be as irrelevant on it as pistol.

Can you provide a single example of a build where someone would want to run sword as a mainhand weapon without access to healing? I can't come up with a single build that would want that, since there are better options available, especially if you also unlock hammer on all builds at the same time.

You literally just said it. Heal Scrapper uses Shield for utility.

What if, god forbid, someone wanted that same utility but in their power build?

They wouldn't just use Hammer, because like for Heal Scrapper, there's utility from Shield that transcends that of Hammer. They wouldn't use Pistol, because Pistol is ultra-garbage for Power builds. So they'd use sword, which is at worst (With no heat synergy), on par with other E-Spec weapons and the only reason it "Sucks" is because it's not as good as Engie's ridiculously powerful kits which overshadow literally all of their weapons in all of their builds.

@Kodama.6453 said:And that is my main problem here. Sword wouldn't be utilised in any non-meme build outside of holosmith. Which means that engineer is treated unfairly at this point, since there are quite alot of classes with elite spec weapons which are not as heavily restricted without their elite spec as holo's sword.

Engineer is not treated any different to any other class.

Druid's staff wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Druid (Even IN Druid, it's kind of meme-y)Spellbreaker's MH dagger isn't and won't be used in any non-meme build unless it gets a crazy good burst skill in 'zerker.Dragonhunter's Longbow is a meme.Deadeye's rifle wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Deadeye (Given that is entire existence revolves around spamming Death's Judgment with full Malice stacks. Both the Malice mechanic and also frequent Stealth access is in Deadeye)

Engie's sword is better than all of those because it does have a niche where it is useful, in Power builds that want to use Shield. As well as in PvP/WvW builds that want the extra mobility from Sword 3.

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@Taril.8619 said:Engineer is not treated any different to any other class.

Druid's staff wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Druid (Even IN Druid, it's kind of meme-y)Spellbreaker's MH dagger isn't and won't be used in any non-meme build unless it gets a crazy good burst skill in 'zerker.Dragonhunter's Longbow is a meme.Deadeye's rifle wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Deadeye (Given that is entire existence revolves around spamming Death's Judgment with full Malice stacks. Both the Malice mechanic and also frequent Stealth access is in Deadeye)

Engie's sword is better than all of those because it does have a niche where it is useful, in Power builds that want to use Shield. As well as in PvP/WvW builds that want the extra mobility from Sword 3.

...which is inequality. Point proven.

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@Trise.2865 said:

@Taril.8619 said:Engineer is not treated any different to any other class.

Druid's staff wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Druid (Even IN Druid, it's kind of meme-y)Spellbreaker's MH dagger isn't and won't be used in any non-meme build unless it gets a crazy good burst skill in 'zerker.Dragonhunter's Longbow is a meme.Deadeye's rifle wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Deadeye (Given that is entire existence revolves around spamming Death's Judgment with full Malice stacks. Both the Malice mechanic and also frequent Stealth access is in Deadeye)

Engie's sword is better than all of those because it does have a niche where it is useful, in Power builds that want to use Shield. As well as in PvP/WvW builds that want the extra mobility from Sword 3.

...which is inequality. Point proven.

Engineer being treated the same as other classes = inequality?

Wut.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@Taril.8619 said:Engineer is not treated any different to any other class.

Druid's staff wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Druid (Even IN Druid, it's kind of meme-y)Spellbreaker's MH dagger isn't and won't be used in any non-meme build unless it gets a crazy good burst skill in 'zerker.Dragonhunter's Longbow is a meme.Deadeye's rifle wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Deadeye (Given that is entire existence revolves around spamming Death's Judgment with full Malice stacks. Both the Malice mechanic and also frequent Stealth access is in Deadeye)

Engie's sword is better than all of those because it does have a niche where it is useful, in Power builds that want to use Shield. As well as in PvP/WvW builds that want the extra mobility from Sword 3.

...which is inequality. Point proven.

Engineer being treated the same as other classes = inequality?

Wut.

You clearly showed examples of Engineer NOT being treated the same as other classes. But hey, people see what they want to see.

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@Trise.2865 said:

@Taril.8619 said:Engineer is not treated any different to any other class.

Druid's staff wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Druid (Even IN Druid, it's kind of meme-y)Spellbreaker's MH dagger isn't and won't be used in any non-meme build unless it gets a crazy good burst skill in 'zerker.Dragonhunter's Longbow is a meme.Deadeye's rifle wouldn't be utilized in any non-meme build outside of Deadeye (Given that is entire existence revolves around spamming Death's Judgment with full Malice stacks. Both the Malice mechanic and also frequent Stealth access is in Deadeye)

Engie's sword is better than all of those because it does have a niche where it is useful, in Power builds that want to use Shield. As well as in PvP/WvW builds that want the extra mobility from Sword 3.

...which is inequality. Point proven.

Engineer being treated the same as other classes = inequality?

Wut.

You clearly showed examples of Engineer NOT being treated the same as other classes. But hey, people see what they want to see.

I clearly showed examples of Engineer being treated equally to other classes.

There are examples, like ones I've shown, where several classes are in a worse situation. With other classes being in a better situation.

Which is remarkably similar to how existing class balance is set out. Either way, Engineer is neither treated worse nor better than other classes in terms of "How useful both their E-Spec weapons are to builds that don't consist of the E-Spec that grants use of said weapon"

It has one weapon that could see use in some meta builds (Hammer) and has another weapon that is a little more niche but could be decent in specific game modes. Which can be said about ALL classes besides Dragonhunter because DH LB is trash.

But hey, people see what they want to see right?

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@Kodama.6453 said:

Why would I ever want to run sword/shield over hammer? I don't see a reason for it.Or if you just want power burst, you can use rifle for blunderbuss and jump shot.Without heat, sword just can't compete with our other power options.

Because a level 17 newbie won't have access to three trait lines, 3+ stat equipment, or even fully grasp (let alone have access to) the full power of their class/weapons.Really if the primary argument I'm seeing is that e-spec weapons don't really work outside of their trait line, I'm not sure why we need to limit their accessibility then? The only good argument is the cross-espec weapon interactions - and this sounds like a problem exclusive to the Elementalist - to which I say:
I'm not paying Anet to take it easy.

You misunderstand.

The problem here is not that e-spec weapons all don't work outside of their own elite spec.The problem is that
some
don't work outside of them!

Which means that this system is unfair and discriminating some classes.Necromancer, for example, has it's weapons designed in a way that makes them usable on all of their specs, since these weapons are not directly intertwined with their class mechanic.

So this new system would be beneficial for necromancers, since they get to use their e-spec weapons on other specs and they actually are useful.Then you have other classes, with weapons designed resolving around their changed class mechanic.I already mentioned holosmith's sword here, which has alot of benefits locked behind the heat system.

Basically, an engineer would get the hammer as an addition for other specs (core and holosmith), but that's it. Sword becomes meaningless, there is no reason to use sword as long as you don't have access to heat.

But yes, the fact that all e-spec weapons from that point on would need to get balanced for
all
specs of the class, not just their associated elite spec, is also a strong counter point.

Balanced? Ideal. NECESSARY? Not necessarily. We're lying to ourselves to suggest non-elite specs/weapons are balanced, so it's not a solid argument.

True, a holosmith won't get so much mileage without heat, but I'm failing to see why that should be a concern if it's not a concern of the player's?

Or hell, if a spec is as required as you insist for the weapon to be any good, here's another question: why exactly do elite specs need to be locked behind a level 80 requirement again?

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@Timbersword.9014 said:

Why would I ever want to run sword/shield over hammer? I don't see a reason for it.Or if you just want power burst, you can use rifle for blunderbuss and jump shot.Without heat, sword just can't compete with our other power options.

Because a level 17 newbie won't have access to three trait lines, 3+ stat equipment, or even fully grasp (let alone have access to) the full power of their class/weapons.Really if the primary argument I'm seeing is that e-spec weapons don't really work outside of their trait line, I'm not sure why we need to limit their accessibility then? The only good argument is the cross-espec weapon interactions - and this sounds like a problem exclusive to the Elementalist - to which I say:
I'm not paying Anet to take it easy.

You misunderstand.

The problem here is not that e-spec weapons all don't work outside of their own elite spec.The problem is that
some
don't work outside of them!

Which means that this system is unfair and discriminating some classes.Necromancer, for example, has it's weapons designed in a way that makes them usable on all of their specs, since these weapons are not directly intertwined with their class mechanic.

So this new system would be beneficial for necromancers, since they get to use their e-spec weapons on other specs and they actually are useful.Then you have other classes, with weapons designed resolving around their changed class mechanic.I already mentioned holosmith's sword here, which has alot of benefits locked behind the heat system.

Basically, an engineer would get the hammer as an addition for other specs (core and holosmith), but that's it. Sword becomes meaningless, there is no reason to use sword as long as you don't have access to heat.

But yes, the fact that all e-spec weapons from that point on would need to get balanced for
all
specs of the class, not just their associated elite spec, is also a strong counter point.

Balanced? Ideal. NECESSARY?
Not necessarily.
We're lying to ourselves to suggest non-elite specs/weapons are balanced, so it's not a solid argument.

True, a holosmith won't get so much mileage without heat, but I'm failing to see why that should be a concern if it's not a concern of the player's?

Or hell, if a spec is as
required
as you insist for the weapon to be any good, here's another question: why exactly do elite specs need to be locked behind a level 80 requirement again?

A sense of progression past the level cap? Just a thought, but that's something that I see a lot of in MMOs where the cap is dead easy to get to. "I'm not progressing anything, it's useless to play", or similar. We have especs beyond the level cap to replace the gear treadmill in other MMOs. Imagine the tradeoff? Instead of specs, every time a new expansion hits, you have to craft all new gear.

I don't see a need? They work the way they work, and that's ok with me. I like my DD with pistols for backups. I like my DE with either daggers or dagger/pistol as backups. I like the way they play differently, despite being the same from 1-80. I like that these weapons add "flavor" to builds, instead of "just use whatever you want". I think it adds uniqueness to the game, instead of taking away from it.

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@Fractured.3928 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

Except that that's not the question here? Which elite spec did they move it from?

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

@"voltaicbore.8012"

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

Except that that's not the question here? Which elite spec did they move it from?

The exact quote:

Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

if weapons are "hardcoded into the classes", how did they add Trident to Revenant? Also, Herald and Renegade can use the Trident as well.

Edit: by the way, I don't think they should give elite spec weapons to core, and in no way to other elite specs, they are fine the way they work. Unlocking a new weapon type by using a specific elite spec is good design.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

@"voltaicbore.8012"

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

I am fairly certain that underwater you and on land you are 2 different characters too :) or 2 different "modes".

That said, I am convinced that they gave Rev that ability from the start, just never finished adding it. That's an oversight.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

@"voltaicbore.8012"

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

Except that that's not the question here? Which elite spec did they move it from?

The exact quote:

Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

if weapons are "hardcoded into the classes", how did they add Trident to Revenant? Also, Herald and Renegade can use the Trident as well.

Edit: by the way, I don't think they should give elite spec weapons to core, and in no way to other elite specs, they are fine the way they work. Unlocking a new weapon type by using a specific elite spec is good design.

Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec. That's the question of the thread, and the context for the answer. I agree, however, that we don't need them shifting espec stuff around to core, or other specs.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

@"voltaicbore.8012"

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

Except that that's not the question here? Which elite spec did they move it from?

The exact quote:

Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

if weapons are "hardcoded into the classes", how did they add Trident to Revenant? Also, Herald and Renegade can use the Trident as well.

Edit: by the way, I don't think they should give elite spec weapons to core, and in no way to other elite specs, they are fine the way they work. Unlocking a new weapon type by using a specific elite spec is good design.

Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec. That's the question of the thread, and the context for the answer. I agree, however, that we don't need them shifting espec stuff around to core, or other specs.

I would put money down on weapons not being hardcoded to classes. This is just another myth, like WoW's initial bag slot.

I have yet to find any proof that anything like this at all is hardcoded, plus it...doesn't make sense for it to be hard-coded.

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@Fractured.3928 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

I would literally be amazed if this was true, and dumb founded by lack of foresight. Do you have proof of this hilarious oversight by the devs?

@"voltaicbore.8012"

You're correct, balance does come into play whether I want it or not. I just don't think any of the mixes would particularly outshine plenty of things in the game already.

It's not an oversight, that's just how the game functions. When this game was made they weren't planning to release an expansion or literally change how classes work.

As someone who does some programming, and doing plenty of architectural IT work. Not expecting to change things like that, is very much so an oversight. Also, I am unable to find any proof of what you're saying is true, so I'll just choose to not believe that the devs would do something like that.

It's really easy to prove him wrong. They added trident to revenant after release. Adding weapons to classes is not a problem.

Except that that's not the question here? Which elite spec did they move it from?

The exact quote:

Weapons are hardcoded into the classes, just like weights. The reason elite specs can use different weapons is because technically a Chronomancer is not a Mesmer, it's its own thing.

if weapons are "hardcoded into the classes", how did they add Trident to Revenant? Also, Herald and Renegade can use the Trident as well.

Edit: by the way, I don't think they should give elite spec weapons to core, and in no way to other elite specs, they are fine the way they work. Unlocking a new weapon type by using a specific elite spec is good design.

Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec. That's the question of the thread, and the context for the answer. I agree, however, that we don't need them shifting espec stuff around to core, or other specs.

I would put money down on weapons not being hardcoded to classes. This is just another myth, like WoW's initial bag slot.

I have yet to find any proof that anything like this at all is hardcoded, plus it...doesn't make sense for it to be hard-coded.

I have no access to code, but, a dagger does something different on different classes, off the top of my head. A thief using it off hand certainly doesn't get the same skills an Ele does. That's the element that's probably hardcoded.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec.What does that have anything to do with a core class being able to use it or not? Especially if, like @Blocki.4931 said in his original claim, especs are treated as separate classes for weapon availability? It's not like a weapon being accessible by one class prevents it from being used by another, after all.

@robertthebard.8150 said:I have no access to code, but, a dagger does something different on different classes, off the top of my head. A thief using it off hand certainly doesn't get the same skills an Ele does. That's the element that's probably hardcoded.No more or less hardcoded that any other skills are. And yet they did add skills to core classes throughout the GW2 history.Besides, notice how those skills for elite spec weapons are already in the game. You don't need to make them

Anet was talking about possibly adding new weapons to the classes since the very beginning of the game. As such, i don't find it likely that they've made those classes in a way that would make adding weapons to them prohibitively hard.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec.What does that have anything to do with a core class being able to use it or not? Especially if, like @Blocki.4931 said in his original claim, especs are treated as separate classes for weapon availability? It's not like a weapon being accessible by one class prevents it from being used by another, after all.

@robertthebard.8150 said:I have no access to code, but, a dagger does something different on different classes, off the top of my head. A thief using it off hand certainly doesn't get the same skills an Ele does. That's the element that's probably hardcoded.No more or less hardcoded that any other skills are. And yet they did add skills to core classes throughout the GW2 history.Besides, notice how those skills for elite spec weapons are already in the game. You don't need to make them

Anet was talking about possibly adding new weapons to the classes since the very beginning of the game. As such, i don't find it likely that they've made those classes in a way that would make adding weapons to them prohibitively hard.

So just to stick to my example, which version of dagger are they going to use? What happens if they choose the "wrong" version? My DD's staff behaves very differently from an Ele's staff, which staff should they use? I'm not sure how that applies to other classes, as I haven't used them enough to know. I do know that a Mesmer with a GS does something completely different than what a Warrior does with the same weapon. If every weapon behaved the same way on every class, this wouldn't be hard to do at all, but they don't. To use the great sword example again, Warrior, Ranger and Mesmer all use it, but it's a different weapon on all three classes, based on the skills it gives.

To answer your other question, they coded one set of skills for one class for the trident. What happens if you want to use it on another class that can already use the trident, and you don't get those skills? Even e spec weapons will run into this problem on classes that can already use the base weapon. Since, as I mentioned, weapons don't perform the same way across the board, and we really don't want them to, which versions are they going to make available, and what happens when the version they decide is the best to use doesn't meet what certain members of the community wanted? The short answer is a thread similar to this one.

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:Because Trident wasn't hardcoded into an elite spec.What does that have anything to do with a core class being able to use it or not? Especially if, like @Blocki.4931 said in his original claim, especs are treated as separate classes for weapon availability? It's not like a weapon being accessible by one class prevents it from being used by another, after all.

@robertthebard.8150 said:I have no access to code, but, a dagger does something different on different classes, off the top of my head. A thief using it off hand certainly doesn't get the same skills an Ele does. That's the element that's probably hardcoded.No more or less hardcoded that any other skills are. And yet they did add skills to core classes throughout the GW2 history.Besides, notice how those skills for elite spec weapons are already in the game. You don't need to make them

Anet was talking about possibly adding new weapons to the classes since the very beginning of the game. As such, i don't find it likely that they've made those classes in a way that would make adding weapons to them prohibitively hard.

So just to stick to my example, which version of dagger are they going to use? What happens if they choose the "wrong" version? My DD's staff behaves very differently from an Ele's staff, which staff should they use? I'm not sure how that applies to other classes, as I haven't used them enough to know. I do know that a Mesmer with a GS does something completely different than what a Warrior does with the same weapon. If every weapon behaved the same way on every class, this wouldn't be hard to do at all, but they don't. To use the great sword example again, Warrior, Ranger and Mesmer all use it, but it's a different weapon on all three classes, based on the skills it gives.

To answer your other question, they coded one set of skills for one class for the trident. What happens if you want to use it on another class that can already use the trident, and you don't get those skills? Even e spec weapons will run into this problem on classes that can already use the base weapon. Since, as I mentioned, weapons don't perform the same way across the board, and we really don't want them to, which versions are they going to make available, and what happens when the version they decide is the best to use doesn't meet what certain members of the community wanted? The short answer is a thread similar to this one.

I'm honestly not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore? Its confusing.

A weapon is literally just a variable in the code, with an attached graphic, and an attached animation.

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@"robertthebard.8150" said:So just to stick to my example, which version of dagger are they going to use? What happens if they choose the "wrong" version? My DD's staff behaves very differently from an Ele's staff, which staff should they use?What a weird question - the elite spec one, obviously. The skills are already done, after all. Seriously, what version of the core class weapons do you think the elite specs use? Why do you think it would work one way, but not the other?

To use the great sword example again, Warrior, Ranger and Mesmer all use it, but it's a different weapon on all three classes, based on the skills it gives.Sure, but Berserker and Spellbreaker do use the Warrior version, Druid and Soulbeast do use the Ranger version, and Chrono and Mirage do use the Mesmer version.

To answer your other question, they coded one set of skills for one class for the trident. What happens if you want to use it on another class that can already use the trident, and you don't get those skills?How is that important? We're not enablin a weapon on class that the class could use before. We're allowing a weapon on class that a specific elite spec could use, but not the core class or other elite spec. There's absolutely no danger of getting two sets of skills or anything like that.

Even e spec weapons will run into this problem on classes that can already use the base weapon.There's no such case. In fact, the whole thread exists exactly because it is not something that happens.

Seriously, we're not talking about core classes getting access to weapons of elite specs of other classes. Thus, all the "problems" you keep bringing up have an exactly zero chance of happening, and we don;t need to think about them at all.

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