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Expac speculation: Role/capability + Theme


Anchoku.8142

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  1. What new functional capability or group role do you think Necromancer will get, or should get, with the next expansion and elite specialization?
  2. What do you think the new elite specialization's theme will be given what we know about the new map areas?

Time for some more pointless speculation like we do before every expansion package

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1- Realistically: The necromancer will get an e-spec that's average at everything.Idealistically: The necromancer will have a true dps spec with no traditional shroud (For me reaper is pretty much a bruiser spec, not a dps spec. It's been brought to it's level of damage through whinning).

2- I'm betting on an insect master with the necromancer contracted to an insect queen that feed on it's life force and blood to grant him powers and summon critters (This would replace the shroud). Commands or Venom as utility skills. (I'm imagining some self bleeding on F skills that can be sent back though command/venom or simply through DM necromantic corruption.)Insects were pretty much the first thing that were encountered in shin jea for new players on faction and insects are also thematically tied to the necromancer with quite a few skills related to insects/parasits.

From a more general standpoint, I expect the selling point to be:

  • Spirit mastery: Allow you to summon a spirit whose basic use is to interact with object that you can't reach (a kind of telekinesy). The mastery allow you to improve ability range and equip various objects: gathering tools, spirit specific objects, skins. A pet that you can summon/unsummon and can do some dirty job (gathering) for the player, letting them concentrate onto the slaughtering.
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^ I like those ideas; especially the bug theme.

  1. A single-target bind-and-poison with condi-flipping e-spec feels like it would have synergy with core while giving the specialization a functionally unique flavor. It could use AoE to restrict movement but not for much damage. The trait selection would range between single target poison application to group conversion of conditions to boons with low dps.1.1 Spend LF on AoE bind or AoE condi-flipping.1.2 Short bow poison application with potential resistance AoE, projectile and blast finishers. Only field is ethereal. Meant to be a combination utility weapon.
  2. A forest theme with fungus spore clouds, both good and bad, is one theme but I like Dadnir's bug-theme too. There are benefits for developers using bugs or mushrooms because models already exist. Utilities could be ground-targeted, perhaps even banner or turret like if the mushroom or bug can be picked up.
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Demons or Spirits. Necromancers are known for tapping into the Mists, especially in Cantha and their Minions are speculated to be proto demons of sorts. Its unlikely that we see something outside of this theme. Minions is a strong possibility but also a vampiric spec could be likely. A Jiangshi inspired spec with a head piece that has a talisman on it could also work quite well. Much of the necromancer's themes are centered around Horror tropes and Asian horror often deals with Spirits, demons and Disease. Those seemed to be the most popular from my research into it.

Demons though have a lot of lore to work off of. Take a look at Mang who was summoned by a Canthan necromancer named Juedo. But this doesn't mean they couldn't summon spirits in general. Giving flesh to demons is something the necromancer is quite familiar with though and could be interesting.

Necromancers , calling on the spirits of the dead, and even death itself, to overpower enemies and assist allies. In sacrificing Health and taking curses and diseases upon themselves, they can deal large amounts of damage to those foolish enough to oppose them. Dead and dying enemies become unwilling allies in their hands. Necromancers have the singular ability to absorb Energy from an enemy’s death, and can raise a fighting force from the corpses of their foes. Curses, which often cost the Necromancer dearly, exact an even greater toll from enemies, who find that their Enchantments and healing skills are rendered useless. Due to the sacrificial nature of their methods, Necromancers must practice patience and self-discipline to survive.— The Guild Wars Manuscripts

As for in game descriptions in GW1 we have thisOne who has learned to draw power from the blood sacrifice and communion with death, the Necromancer uses black magic to cast curses and raise undead minions.

Black magic isn't quite expanded on in the games however we can look at what is said about black magic in our historical beliefs about it to understand what Anet migth have meant, since a lot of the what the necromancer does matches its description. Black magic you can read more about it here.

Does this mean something else is off the table? No. Demons to me seem very likely but some form of Shaman for necromancer also seems quite likely. If Demon becomes the theme that means that Designs around Disease and the afflicted could surface due to their supernatural origin. If Shaman is the path necromancer is to take, Ritualist is the most obvious choice. Although given Necromancer's themes it seems that people might feel that the necromancer's take on ritualist is a bit darker than they perceive the Ritualist to be. (although Ritualists in GW2 literally tortured spirits and ripped souls from people's body and forced spirits to pay the price they should in blood but I digress).

Necromancer has a strong connection to the realm of torment and underworld. They commune with spirits and demons. This is undeniable from their lore from in game and their real world inspiration. Its just a question of how that will manifest in the most mists revering region in Guild Wars as we know it.

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@Lily.1935 said:A Jiangshi inspired spec with a head piece that has a talisman on it could also work quite well.

Minor detail, but I kinda doubt that necromancer will get a head piece for the next elite spec.

To this point, all elite specs got one of 3 different armor types: helmet, shoulders, gloves.And no class doubles on any of these.

warrior: helmet (berserker) and shoulders (spellbreaker)guardian: gloves (dragon hunter) and helmet (firebrand)revenant: shoulders (herald) and helmet (renegade)

engineer: helmet (scrapper) and shoulders (holosmith)ranger: shoulders (druid) and gloves (soulbeast)thief: helmet (daredevil) and shoulders (deadeye)

elementalist: shoulders (tempest) and gloves (weaver)mesmer: shoulders (chronomancer) and helmet (mirage)necromancer: helmet (reaper) and shoulders (scourge)

So the most likely scenario for the next elite specs is that they get the missing one, meaning:helmets: ranger, elementalistshoulders: guardiangloves: warrior, revenant, engineer, thief, mesmer, necromancer

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lily.1935 said:A Jiangshi inspired spec with a head piece that has a talisman on it could also work quite well.

Minor detail, but I kinda doubt that necromancer will get a head piece for the next elite spec.

To this point, all elite specs got one of 3 different armor types: helmet, shoulders, gloves.And no class doubles on any of these.

warrior: helmet (berserker) and shoulders (spellbreaker)guardian: gloves (dragon hunter) and helmet (firebrand)revenant: shoulders (herald) and helmet (renegade)

engineer: helmet (scrapper) and shoulders (holosmith)ranger: shoulders (druid) and gloves (soulbeast)thief: helmet (daredevil) and shoulders (deadeye)

elementalist: shoulders (tempest) and gloves (weaver)mesmer: shoulders (chronomancer) and helmet (mirage)necromancer: helmet (reaper) and shoulders (scourge)

So the most likely scenario for the next elite specs is that they get the missing one, meaning:helmets: ranger, elementalistshoulders: guardiangloves: warrior, revenant, engineer, thief, mesmer, necromancer

I wouldn't bet on that personally. I don't think its honestly that important of a consideration. Also it was a off thought. A Jiangshi armor set would be cool regardless.

And whose to say this expansion would have just one armor piece? Maybe they'll have a full set? Wishful thinking I know.

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What everyone wants is literally a true DPS Espec which will be able to consistently deal damage in and out of shroud, similar to how Holo can do the same in and out of Forge.

But knowing Anet, they are gonna give us another mumbo jumbo Espec which will no doubt be fresh and fun, but also utterly useless in high end PvE.

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@Yasai.3549 said:What everyone wants is literally a true DPS Espec which will be able to consistently deal damage in and out of shroud, similar to how Holo can do the same in and out of Forge.

But knowing Anet, they are gonna give us another mumbo jumbo Espec which will no doubt be fresh and fun, but also utterly useless in high end PvE.

Considering that necromancer already has a dps spec with reaper, I really think that is unlikely to happen.As far as I know, greatsword also deals some pretty good damage outside of reaper's shroud.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:What everyone wants is literally a true DPS Espec which will be able to consistently deal damage in and out of shroud, similar to how Holo can do the same in and out of Forge.

But knowing Anet, they are gonna give us another mumbo jumbo Espec which will no doubt be fresh and fun, but also utterly useless in high end PvE.

Considering that necromancer already has a dps spec with reaper, I really think that is unlikely to happen.As far as I know, greatsword also deals some pretty good damage outside of reaper's shroud.

Agree with you both on that: If the dev's wanted to give a single-target dps spec', they could tune core to spend less time in shroud and more time on MH dagger. They do not need an elite spec for that.

p.s.The single largest hole in Necromancer capability is a boon-dependent build. Necro sees no benefit from concentration. I simply cannot think of a way to tie top-class dps on Necro to maintaining boons applied by other professions; perhaps because boon-spam is so prevalent. (This reminds me that I once thought alacrity should stack in intensity. That would make it even more important to maintain stacks of it for all professions. Alacrity as it is, is too potent.)

Not that I think there is a chance for it but does anyone have a realistic elite spec idea that would make concentration better than ferocity or expertise?

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Considering that for me, core necro is a single target dps, reaper is a bruiser dps, and scourge is a support, I'm kinda hoping they go with a tank spec.My dream would be a plague marine-like necro, a frontline character with great durability and staying power, more than reaper, but less damage and more party utility.It woulds still revolve around conditions, getting more durable the more he or his allies debuff his enemies.As unique mechanic he could have something similar to guardian virtues, that have a passive effect but can be activated to grant new effects to the whole team, and instead of consecrating the ground like the paladin, he desecrates it, in a similar way to wells, but more persistent and centered on the necro.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:Not that I think there is a chance for it but does anyone have a realistic elite spec idea that would make concentration better than ferocity or expertise?

Unless concentration affect things that aren't boons, there is no hope on that front. By design, the necromancer is one that corrupt boons on it's foes not one that provide boons to it's allies. The fact that core necromancer can more or less maintain the few boons that the necromancer have access to also don't go in favor of concentration being more attractive than ferocity or expertise with any e-spec.

That said, I wouldn't say that the necromancer isn't boon dependant, it's ability to build might for himself is quite high already and contribute a lot to it's personal dps, reaper also get some easy access to self quickness improving dps. The only boon for which the necromancer could crave concentration would be fury but soul reaping take care of that usually, curse being a less interesting choice for power builds.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Not that I think there is a chance for it but does anyone have a realistic elite spec idea that would make concentration better than ferocity or expertise?

Unless concentration affect things that aren't boons, there is no hope on that front. By design, the necromancer is one that corrupt boons on it's foes not one that provide boons to it's allies. The fact that core necromancer can more or less maintain the few boons that the necromancer have access to also don't go in favor of concentration being more attractive than ferocity or expertise with any e-spec.

That said, I wouldn't say that the necromancer isn't boon dependant, it's ability to build might for himself is quite high already and contribute a lot to it's personal dps, reaper also get some easy access to self quickness improving dps. The only boon for which the necromancer could crave concentration would be fury but soul reaping take care of that usually, curse being a less interesting choice for power builds.

You seem really adamant about the claim that just because necromancer doesn't currently have access to something, they won't get it at all. Which is not accurate if you look at general elite spec design in the past.

Core thief doesn't have blocks, but they added a block for daredevil.Core warrior doesn't have boon removal, they added alot of that for spellbreaker.

They can add features to elite specs which are not part of the core class.

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@Kodama.6453 said:You seem really adamant about the claim that just because necromancer doesn't currently have access to something, they won't get it at all. Which is not accurate if you look at general elite spec design in the past.

When it come to the necromancer, I'm just realist. ANet had countless opportunities to grant the necromancer things that he doesn't have and each time they favored a variation on what he already got. Core necromancer traits/design and it's shroud more or less lock out a lot of possibilities even for e-specs.

Thought, you can say that the necromancer can already benefit from concentration in it's support builds (especially scourge) in order to grant: perma regen (staff), might (BiP, dessicate, ghastly breach, Abrasive grit), swiftness/stab (trail of anguish) and protection (spectral ring). You can even say that in order to gain the most out of feed from corruption, some concentration is pretty nice. However, the boons duration are undeniably high enough for concentration to be trivial whether is for group or self.

NB.: Core thief negate damage through one mean or another by design (with the obvious deadly weakness being it's low health pool), the necromancer eat damage through health points. As for core warrior, he do have boon hate and is designed to be a brute that break things, it's not much of a stretch to push it up to break magic itself (boons).

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'd like to see a new weapon with Marks on them so that staff is not the only one. Even just one mark. And faster attack speed without quickness.

In general it could have been an idea to give every mainhand weapon of necromancer a mark, like they gave every guardian mainhand weapon (as far as I know) a symbol.Sad that they didn't do this.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'd like to see a new weapon with Marks on them so that staff is not the only one. Even just one mark. And faster attack speed without quickness.

In general it could have been an idea to give every mainhand weapon of necromancer a mark, like they gave every guardian mainhand weapon (as far as I know) has a symbol.Sad that they didn't do this.

They really should have done that. I wish Anet would do a full Necro weapon rework including the e-spec weapons to ensure every MH at least had 1 mark.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:Has anyone an idea about how to create an elite specialization with mobility skills or heavy on finishers?

p.s.... That won't be totally broken yet be attractive enough to replace DM, BM or SR?

Here some random ideas:Main mechanism: No shroud, instead he conjure the banner of darkness in it's hands and gain dark aura. Minor trait grant Barrier when you gain dark aura.BoD AA: Thrust with the banner.BoD#2: Charge forward, leap finisher. (8-10s CD)BoD#3: Blast the floor at your feet with the banner fearing foes around you. (15s)BoD#4: Channeled skill similar to Lich's summon madness.BoD#5: Domain of darkness: Claim the area around you (360 range) extending a field of darkness that slow down foes within every seconds.

Shroud:You can imagine a trait that count entering or leaving the shroud as a leap finisher.

Weapon:

  • Axe off-hand: could have a whirl finisher.
  • Shield: could summon a bone construct that can be destroyed in a blast.

Utility skills:

  • Bone turrets: can be destroyed with a blast finisher.
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I'm hoping for a pet-focused elite spec--a ghost summoner or something similar would be fitting. Mostly because I want the necromancer--a class typically associated with raising the undead to fight for them--to have a single good looking minion, something that I'd actually want to have following me around. Wanting an elite spec solely on the basis of the potential aesthetics is weird, sure, but that's where I'm at right now.

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A shroudless tank spec with some group utility would be what I would want to play most.It could be interesting if it changed dodges, or added evades as part of its mechanics

Oh also core should have its defense gutted and replaced with meaningful damage. That way raider's can finally be happy with a single target dps spec

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I would love somekind of demonic assassin type melee/single target oriented power spec. With shroud being more than just a black shroud and an actual demonic form.Something vampiric.

But realistically? There's the whole "soulbinder" thing with shiro'ken. I could see it being something like that but instead of shroud you get a shiro'ken type pet in its place. Perhaps damage is split with the pet? I don't know. That would be a bit ridiculous with minion mancer. Perhaps it's a new form of life force management that builds faster, degenerates faster, and the shroud is more of a temporary stance/empowerment?

I do going the demonic route could be really neat though. Perhaps dual swords for weapons. I'm not sure what the utilities would be though. We've had shouts and "punishments" and they already had wells, sigils, and pets. So perhaps actual stances, or glyphs.

I guess the only other thing that could be kind of cool would be a long-ranged weapon like longbow and have it be kind of a shadow-ranger esque theme.

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@Redpawa.4108 said:A shroudless tank spec with some group utility would be what I would want to play most.

Necro has a serious problem playing as a functional tank in PvE. Its only major source of stability to counter boss control effects was removed last year; Foot in the Grave. Tanking requires only two things: High aggro (toughness) and reliable control of boss positioning (counters to knock-backs and other control effects.) Necro easily has the first requirement but is weak to hard CC.I do not see Arenanet giving FitG back.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:Necro has a serious problem playing as a functional tank in PvE. Its only major source of stability to counter boss control effects was removed last year; Foot in the Grave. Tanking requires only two things: High aggro (toughness) and reliable control of boss positioning (counters to knock-backs and other control effects.) Necro easily has the first requirement but is weak to hard CC.I do not see Arenanet giving FitG back.

Necromancers could have an easier time with tanking if we got another Shroud comparable to Scourge. Simply because Necromancers could be healed and treated just as any other class in a group set up. It shouldn't be that hard to build Stability and some damage mitigation into a new e-spec. However, personally I'm fine with how tanky Reapers can be. I'd rather have something more mobile or CC-focussed with damage as secondary strength and either a long ranged 2H weapon or a close ranged condition 1H weapon. I got no preference for Utilities, although Glyphs could be interesting because of Shroud. As an alternative to Signets.

@"Bast.7253" said:I would love somekind of demonic assassin type melee/single target oriented power spec. With shroud being more than just a black shroud and an actual demonic form.Something vampiric.

But realistically? There's the whole "soulbinder" thing with shiro'ken. I could see it being something like that but instead of shroud you get a shiro'ken type pet in its place. Perhaps damage is split with the pet? I don't know. That would be a bit ridiculous with minion mancer. Perhaps it's a new form of life force management that builds faster, degenerates faster, and the shroud is more of a temporary stance/empowerment?

I do going the demonic route could be really neat though. Perhaps dual swords for weapons. I'm not sure what the utilities would be though. We've had shouts and "punishments" and they already had wells, sigils, and pets. So perhaps actual stances, or glyphs.

I guess the only other thing that could be kind of cool would be a long-ranged weapon like longbow and have it be kind of a shadow-ranger esque theme.

If you used LF as pet-fuel it could somewhat work even if it was classified 'Minion'. And shouldn't be that hard to implement.

  • Life Force degenerates when F1 is used. F2-4 are disabled until F1 is used.
  • F1: Needs a target. Summons a Shade (or whatever theme you'd want...). Flip over = retarget. Active until fight ends or LF runs out. F1 traits are triggered periodically on pet AA (s. Refined Toxins on Ranger) or on 'Retarget' if ready (more like Poison Master).
  • F2: Movement based pet attack (gap closer). If it was a shadow/spectral theme, the Necro could swap place instead.
  • F3: Pet centered attack
  • F4: Pet centered attack
  • F5: Another pet centered attack. Or pet release. Or Shrould-button. Or a combination of those.

Shrould could be treated in different ways

  • As Bast described, splitting effects between you and your pet (meaning: Less efficiency for the Necromancer)
  • Or like on Scourge (s. above)
  • Or upon using F1 for x seconds (more like effects upon Steal on Thief)

The pet could be altered in different ways. Some ideas:

  • GMs (s. Daredevil)
  • Target it is first summoned on (s. Thief)
  • Based on your weapon (s. Mesmer)

However: Utilities clearly wouldn't be even more 'Minions'. That would be silly. Maybe 'Commands'. But probably something else.

Still... personally not looking for a pet centered spec on Necromancer.

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