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Some thoughts on ways to make core Engi valuable


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Right now, and for quite some time really, core Engi hasn't offered anything that the elite specs don't do better. Other classes have elite specs that have trade offs, taking them means you lose out on something where as with Engi it seems to only be F5 skills for elites and an extra trait line. For some classes an extra trait line is a big deal, but for core Engi it just doesn't have enough of an impact to make a difference.

So my thinking is that F5's need to be more impactful and at least one Grand Master trait per-line should function differently when used without elites. An example of this is Necromancer's Dhuumfire which applies less Burns when slotted with Scourge. Maybe something like Big Boomer healing for significantly more, Modified Ammunition giving a greater bonus per-condition, Iron Blooded having an additional effect? I don't know, but something along those lines.

First and foremost I think F5's need to be buffed a little bit. Reworking Orbital Strike completely would be great since it does very little damage, has a long cast time, and doesn't offer anything that other skills can't do better, faster. Med Pack Drop is actually very good and could probably be left unchanged, but I think Toss Elixir X should still be buffed a little bit in some way too. Like maybe making it so that the duration of the Moa transformation increases by 1 second the less players it's hitting. So if it hits 3 players it has a duration of 3 seconds, if it hits 1 it has a duration of 5 seconds.

I'm not as good at making complete trait and skill reworks as some of the people are on these forums, so I'm not going to try. I'm just spitballing ideas trying to get a discussion started because I really want to see something more for core Engi.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Right now, and for quite some time really, core Engi hasn't offered anything that the elite specs don't do better. Other classes have elite specs that have trade offs, taking them means you lose out on something where as with Engi it seems to only be F5 skills for elites and an extra trait line. For some classes an extra trait line is a big deal, but for core Engi it just doesn't have enough of an impact to make a difference.

So my thinking is that F5's need to be more impactful and at least one Grand Master trait per-line should function differently when used without elites. An example of this is Necromancer's Dhuumfire which applies less Burns when slotted with Scourge. Maybe something like Big Boomer healing for significantly more, Modified Ammunition giving a greater bonus per-condition, Iron Blooded having an additional effect? I don't know, but something along those lines.

First and foremost I think F5's need to be buffed a little bit. Reworking Orbital Strike completely would be great since it does very little damage, has a long cast time, and doesn't offer anything that other skills can't do better, faster. Med Pack Drop is actually very good and could probably be left unchanged, but I think Toss Elixir X should still be buffed a little bit in some way too. Like maybe making it so that the duration of the Moa transformation increases by 1 second the less players it's hitting. So if it hits 3 players it has a duration of 3 seconds, if it hits 1 it has a duration of 5 seconds.

I'm not as good at making complete trait and skill reworks as some of the people are on these forums, so I'm not going to try. I'm just spitballing ideas trying to get a discussion started because I really want to see something more for core Engi.

One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Right now, and for quite some time really, core Engi hasn't offered anything that the elite specs don't do better. Other classes have elite specs that have trade offs, taking them means you lose out on something where as with Engi it seems to only be F5 skills for elites and an extra trait line. For some classes an extra trait line is a big deal, but for core Engi it just doesn't have enough of an impact to make a difference.

So my thinking is that F5's need to be more impactful and at least one Grand Master trait per-line should function differently when used without elites. An example of this is Necromancer's Dhuumfire which applies less Burns when slotted with Scourge. Maybe something like Big Boomer healing for significantly more, Modified Ammunition giving a greater bonus per-condition, Iron Blooded having an additional effect? I don't know, but something along those lines.

First and foremost I think F5's need to be buffed a little bit. Reworking Orbital Strike completely would be great since it does very little damage, has a long cast time, and doesn't offer anything that other skills can't do better, faster. Med Pack Drop is actually very good and could probably be left unchanged, but I think Toss Elixir X should still be buffed a little bit in some way too. Like maybe making it so that the duration of the Moa transformation increases by 1 second the less players it's hitting. So if it hits 3 players it has a duration of 3 seconds, if it hits 1 it has a duration of 5 seconds.

I'm not as good at making complete trait and skill reworks as some of the people are on these forums, so I'm not going to try. I'm just spitballing ideas trying to get a discussion started because I really want to see something more for core Engi.

One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

Some of the gyro's tool-belt skills are mediocre and removing the control of the player on what he brings on his belt would kill the elite spec for me. I actually don't even enjoy using most of the gyros anyway. Scrapper is fine as is about that.

Instead of "nerfing" scrapper or holo, we should ask for what really needs to happen for engi: QoL buff on base kits/core engi.

  1. Allow nade #1 and mortar #1 skills to autoattack the target when "autoattack" is activated on them. It's stupid how grenades can be used that way underwater but not on ground and it's stupid how mortar just doesn't work underwater.
  2. Bomb kit needs a buff too. I don't know how to make it work but it needs something. Maybe more CC. Because, as of right now, unless somebody is trying to be close enough to smell your rear, no opponent (outside of PVE) will remain close enough to you that your bombs will reliably hit them. It's really only useful against melee builds that never kite.
  3. Tool kit's skills #1 and 2 deal pitiful damage.
  4. Turrets are a joke outside of PVE. Similar to bomb kit, nobody will stay in their AoE. Also, most of the time, only their overcharge is useful so you drop them and then either instantly pick them back up if you want shorter CD or you detonate them.
  5. Rifle is in a dire need of damage buffs and fixing it's intended playstyle. Right now it's all over the place as net shot and overcharged shot would make you think we (the engi player) are supposed to stay at range but with jumpshot and blunderboss we need to get/be in melee range to deal the maximum damage. Also, the damage in general from rifle skills is really pitiful. And that self knockback is just sad lol.
  6. Pistols needs a "direct damage" buff too. It applies decent conditions but is mediocre when used in a power or hybrid build.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:kits and turrets need a revamp, pistols also. basically half the class.

Exactly!

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If it's core engineer: something to do with turrets (Experimental Turrets is key to this) and kits probably. Also pistols are terrible and so is rifle if you don't use kits.Right now holo keeps all toolbelt skills besides the elite and so does scrapper.

A core engineer would be able to run Explosives, Firearms, Inventions/Tools/Alchemy.

Inventions: Bunker down provides added damage and sustain (especially when using bomb kit) so being able to run Experimental Turrets is a plus in cases where you need the boons but the problem is the boon duration needs to be absurdly high to have full uptime on fury

Tools: There's a damage bonus from vigor to the tune of 10% ; Takedown round is more effective on core engineer and was added for this sole purpose (along with Aim-Assisted Rocket in Explosives) but has 10s cooldown so you would not run it over an elite spec

Alchemy: HGH relies on elixirs , everything else is defensive more or less so you wouldn't want to run this for damage

Elite toolbelt skillsMortar kit : Orbital Strike could easily be half the cooldown in PVE scenarios , there's no reason to split it in PVE/PVP when the PVP one has a lower cooldown technicallyMed Pack Drop : not that bad but people don't run support engineer in PVE for the most part , rarely will you have every condi to make use of the skill especially on 50 cooldown

edit:

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:Instead of "nerfing" scrapper or holo, we should ask for what really needs to happen for engi: QoL buff on base kits/core engi.

  1. Allow nade #1 and mortar #1 skills to autoattack the target when "autoattack" is activated on them. It's stupid how grenades can be used that way underwater but not on ground and it's stupid how mortar just doesn't work underwater.
  2. Bomb kit needs a buff too. I don't know how to make it work but it needs something. Maybe more CC. Because, as of right now, unless somebody is trying to be close enough to smell your rear, no opponent (outside of PVE) will remain close enough to you that your bombs will reliably hit them. It's really only useful against melee builds that never kite.
  3. Tool kit's skills #1 and 2 deal pitiful damage.
  4. Turrets are a joke outside of PVE. Similar to bomb kit, nobody will stay in their AoE. Also, most of the time, only their overcharge is useful so you drop them and then either instantly pick them back up if you want shorter CD or you detonate them.
  5. Rifle is in a dire need of damage buffs and fixing it's intended playstyle. Right now it's all over the place as net shot and overcharged shot would make you think we (the engi player) are supposed to stay at range but with jumpshot and blunderboss we need to get/be in melee range to deal the maximum damage. Also, the damage in general from rifle skills is really pitiful. And that self knockback is just sad lol.
  6. Pistols needs a "direct damage" buff too. It applies decent conditions but is mediocre when used in a power or hybrid build.

Regarding #1 , mortar and grenades auto properly if you hold 1.Regarding #2 , on explosives+firearms holo with autoattack and no outside buffs with full zerk scholar: sword 4600 , bomb kit 4200 , mortar 4000 , grenades 3800 , flamethrower 3200 (which means it doesn't need that much help especially in condition type builds) ; bomb kit has been used in WVW quite a bit since its autos hit 5 people and it's a free smoke field when sneak gyro is on cooldown. The only help it needs is bomb kit #3 in PVE because a skill that outputs confusion usually has higher power coefficient to make up for when confusion doesn't trigger.Regarding #3 , toolkit has a 0.8 power coefficient and 1.75 on the last part of the auto it doesn't need that much help on the auto attack even when you account for the kit scaling off utility and not weapon . Toolkit's box of nails skills pulses so it's more or less for bleeding.Regarding #4 , one of my guild leaders used turrets in PVP to reach #1 in the leaderboard years ago and they were subsequently nerfed don't expect anything to make them viable in PVP or WVWRegarding #5 , it's used on decap scrapper I believe but core engineer is based off kits no matter how you cut itRegarding #6 , mainhand Pistol needs a buff on active skills not the auto. Poison Dart Volley is atrocious due to a high power coefficient on a condi weapon and so is Static Shot (low power coefficient on a confusion skill that relies on enemies attacking).

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Wall of text incoming.

For PvEIf you want to see core engi viable, it has to deal the same amount of damage, with similar burst, as Holosmith, or more damage, with worse burst. They could achieve this, by buffing tools, so it gives the same amount of damage, as Explosives or Firearms, while nerfing Laser Edge on Holosmith. In the same time, they could buff general abilities, like Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit, Surprise Shot... the usual stuff that gets picked to dps. In the same time they would have to bring down Laser's Edge, so holo comes closer to core, but it doesn't fall out of viability.

For condition: do the same stuff as above, and change Excessive Vigor, so it gives both Damage, and Condi Damage modifier.

For PvP

This one is trickier. In my oppinion, we need multiple traitline changes, so we get cross-traitline synergies.

SynergiesTo be able to start it, first we need to define what kind of gimmick we want to give the Engineer. For example: Guardian has Aegis, Symbols, Retaliation, and even their profession mechanic, Virtues has multiple traits in different lines.

Engineer currently has: Kits. But some of the kits don't even have traits, and different kit traits don't really synergize with eachother.

It also has its profession mechanic, the Toolbelt skills. Every single one, but Soothing Detonation is in Tools. I think we need more Toolbelt releated traits in different lines. "But Tools is our class specific traitline." is an argument I saw quite a few times. While it is true, other professions has majority of their prof. mechanic buffing traits in their respective lines, as well as some spread across multiple lines. (like Steal, Shatters, Bursts, Virtues)

An another synergy would be Dodge. With the old, and new Explosives line minor, we get damage on dodge, and it used to have a trait to augment it, by turning it into mines. We also have improved endurance regen, through Vigor, and Adrenal Impact, in the Tools line. We also have Elixir R, to be able to dodge more often. While this is (considering HGH, to improve Elixir R) spread across three lines, this combination feels like it just lacks the numbers to be strong enough. (In my oppinion, this synergy should be the last one, that A-net thinks of, since dodge spamming builds are cancerous to play against, and Engineer as a dodge spec just doesn't fulfill the fantasy of the profession.)

We also have Explosives, which got significant with the traitline rework. While skill-wise explosive is well spread out, (except for Rifle. Please give Rifle an explosive skill) traitwise everything is stuffed into the same line. This probably won't see a change, since Explosive Entrance is thematically similar to Opening Strike, Soldiers Focus, or Death's Carapace. (all of these are tied to only one line)

We have Bleeding, too, with Sanguine Array+Sharpshooter+Hematic Focus (all from one line), which work well with Flamethrower, and Grenade + Shrapnel. Honestly, this one feels pretty good, despite in only using two lines to synergize (Firearms+Scrapper, or Firearms+Explosives). I think this could be built on, if we introduced more On Bleed, traits, or more traits, that cause Bleeding.

The last one I can think of, is Boon synergy. Currently we have some of them set up, namely Stability, Protection, and Vigor.Sadly Stability consists of a single core trait, synergizing with a whole Scrapper traitline, so it can't be something core Engineer could build on.Protection has a whole line dedicated to it, but that line is still underused, because Alchemy+Potions outshine it in offense, defense, and utility. The other thing that doesn't help this one, is that it is tied to shield (which would be paired up with main-hand pistol on core engi) and Turrets (which are awful since they got removed because of the bunker turret build).Lastly, Vigor, mostly comes from Tools, or Invigorating Speed, and it builds on the dodge synergy I wrote down earlier.

The TraitlinesI won't write a complete trait rework, netiher I, or (I assume) the reader has time to chew through it. This section will be mostly my oppinions on why specific traitlines work well, or fall short. Currently it feels like, that you don't really want to pick a third core line, since they underperform severely compared to the elites.

Lets start with the elephant in the room, the traitline that is essential to way too many builds, Alchemy. This traitline got nerfed a lot of times, and it is still around. To me, it looks like every trait is either a passive defense, with long cooldown, or some underwhelming effect. In my oppinion, four things make this line strong:Hidden Flask. It is crazy good, even after the nerf in February.HGH. This is honestly the part of the "holo has too much might" problem. It gives might, it reduces the cooldown of 3 other traits in this traitline, and lenghtens their duration. It has crazy value, even if you have no Elixirs slotted on your utility bar.Elixirs. More specifically Elixirs with HGH. Their cooldown is low, the effect they provide is powerful. For example: Elixir S is one of the best defensive utility in the game, Elixir U+Alchemy line outshines Utility Goggles+Tools, or Slick Shoes (Toolbelt)+Tools.Elixir Toolbelts. They are useful, and they count as Elixirs. That little facts makes HGH, and Elixirs must have in PvP. None of our other Toolbelt skills has any specific tag attached to them (except for some explosives here and there), thus they don't get any value from their respective line. (More on this later.)

An another overperforming traitline is Explosives. It hits hard, and it will probably get nerfed soon. Designwise it is my favourite traitline. Majority of the traits feel useful and impactful (Aim-Assisted Rocked beign the exception), for power, condi, and even bruiser builds.

And now, the underperforming lines. Firearms for me (I mostly play power) feels like it is just a passive 35% crit chance boost, and a few percent bonus damage, based on conditions on the enemies. It has no options to increase your sustain, which thematically would be fine, for an offensive line, but it underperforms compared to Explosives on the damage department.

Tools is honestly not far from beign good. Some traits got nerfed obviously, because of Holosmith, but the line could be buffed properly, if they changed Engage Photon Forge to be a non-toolbelt skill. Apart from that, some simple numerical changes could bring this line back.

And the "ugly". Inventions. This is my least liked line. It feels like it has poor synergy with itself, it has multiple traits, that builds on severely overnerfed skills. My first grudge comes from not the line itself, but how it is amazing on holo, but horrible on core: Over Shield. This trait would be amazing, if core engineer had access to a proper main hand weapon. Mainhand pistol feels underwhelming, even on condi builds.The next one would be Experimental Turrets. It feels underwhelming, and awful to use. The reflect appears half-one second after the deployment of the turret, making it unusable as a reflex based defensive skill. Turrets themselves are overnerfed, and awful. The boon application interval is also horrible on this trait.

SkillsThe forum is filled with ideas of reworks, so I'll point out the obvious, and add my own ideas.

Weapons feel weaker than the avarage. The core ones, at least. Our armory is also really small. We have only 4 weapons to choose from. We get compensated with overloaded kits in exchange, which is nice, but we lose valuable utility slots, to counterbuild our lack of good weapons, and weapon swap.Toolbelt skills. I feel like this is the part that could use some work. Anything that isn't Elixir, doesn't really have any synergies, outside of Tools. Imagine if your turret toolbelt skills counted as a turret skill, and gave you one pulse of the turrets boon, if traited with Experimental Turrets. Or imagine, if you got a stack of stability, when you use the Flamethrower Toolbelt skill, while Juggernaut is slotted. Or imagine if Gadgeteer made toolbelts stronger, or even just reduced their cooldowns.Utility skills. Turrets need a serious rework, there are multiple threads on the forum, with amazing ideas to do it. Gadgets feel underwhelming at the moment. Changing toolbelt skills, to interact with Gadgeteer could change that.

For WvWI don't really play that mode, so I don't think I can form an opinion on that part.

Wall of text over. I'll re-read and fix typos-grammar later.

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@"wasss.1208" said:Wall of text incoming.

I agree with everything you said. I even tend to get away from Elixir Trait line because every engi runs it so I made my "own" scrapper build using Tools instead. But yeah, base/core weapons all need buffs in many ways, not just number tweaks, and a lot of traits need to be buffed to become as useful/interesting as Explosive and Elixir. Just one thing, I wouldn't say Explosive is overperforming though. I find it strong but balanced, it's not like we are daredevils with 150 endurance that we can spam dodges.

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@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Right now, and for quite some time really, core Engi hasn't offered anything that the elite specs don't do better. Other classes have elite specs that have trade offs, taking them means you lose out on something where as with Engi it seems to only be F5 skills for elites and an extra trait line. For some classes an extra trait line is a big deal, but for core Engi it just doesn't have enough of an impact to make a difference.

So my thinking is that F5's need to be more impactful and at least one Grand Master trait per-line should function differently when used without elites. An example of this is Necromancer's Dhuumfire which applies less Burns when slotted with Scourge. Maybe something like Big Boomer healing for significantly more, Modified Ammunition giving a greater bonus per-condition, Iron Blooded having an additional effect? I don't know, but something along those lines.

First and foremost I think F5's need to be buffed a little bit. Reworking Orbital Strike completely would be great since it does very little damage, has a long cast time, and doesn't offer anything that other skills can't do better, faster. Med Pack Drop is actually very good and could probably be left unchanged, but I think Toss Elixir X should still be buffed a little bit in some way too. Like maybe making it so that the duration of the Moa transformation increases by 1 second the less players it's hitting. So if it hits 3 players it has a duration of 3 seconds, if it hits 1 it has a duration of 5 seconds.

I'm not as good at making complete trait and skill reworks as some of the people are on these forums, so I'm not going to try. I'm just spitballing ideas trying to get a discussion started because I really want to see something more for core Engi.

One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

Some of the gyro's tool-belt skills are mediocre and removing the control of the player on what he brings on his belt would kill the elite spec for me. I actually don't even enjoy using most of the gyros anyway. Scrapper is fine as is about that.

Instead of "nerfing" scrapper or holo, we should ask for what really needs to happen for engi: QoL buff on base kits/core engi.
  1. Allow nade #1 and mortar #1 skills to autoattack the target when "autoattack" is activated on them. It's stupid how grenades can be used that way underwater but not on ground and it's stupid how mortar just doesn't work underwater.
  2. Bomb kit needs a buff too. I don't know how to make it work but it needs something. Maybe more CC. Because, as of right now, unless somebody is trying to be close enough to smell your rear, no opponent (outside of PVE) will remain close enough to you that your bombs will reliably hit them. It's really only useful against melee builds that never kite.
  3. Tool kit's skills #1 and 2 deal pitiful damage.
  4. Turrets are a joke outside of PVE. Similar to bomb kit, nobody will stay in their AoE. Also, most of the time, only their overcharge is useful so you drop them and then either instantly pick them back up if you want shorter CD or you detonate them.
  5. Rifle is in a dire need of damage buffs and fixing it's intended playstyle. Right now it's all over the place as net shot and overcharged shot would make you think we (the engi player) are supposed to stay at range but with jumpshot and blunderboss we need to get/be in melee range to deal the maximum damage. Also, the damage in general from rifle skills is really pitiful. And that self knockback is just sad lol.
  6. Pistols needs a "direct damage" buff too. It applies decent conditions but is mediocre when used in a power or hybrid build.

I don't agree. I think the only gyro toolbelt that's ok-ish, is chemical field. But even that can be useful when fighting on a node and you want to stunt your enemy's healing potential on the fly to secure the kill. The other gyro toolbelt skills are actually really good.and I forgot to mention the elite gyro wouldn't be included either as the F5 is already replaced with the function gyro.

I agree with turrets needing to be investigated. A shame they died like they did, they were nice. If anything, the necro minions needs either their survivability cut, as they're mobile and they hit hard, or their damage cut, as they're pretty high in health and mobile. Engi turrets in general need defensive boosts, since they're quite stationary. Currently the only trait that can benefit from having laid a turret on the ground is Experimental Turrets in Inventions, and even that is useless right now because the turrets die way too easily, so you really don't get to benefit from the trait too much at all.

Rifle doesn't need damage buffs imo, it can still hit pretty hard especially with rifle 5 and 3.

Pistols don't need a direct damage buff, but what they do need is a buff to their auto cast times. Currently, it reads a .5 cast time, when in actuality including the after cast of the auto, it takes .8 or so seconds to complete 1 auto attack. Meanwhile, ranger shortbow reads a .5 cast and actually reflects this cast, being able to shoot quick shots in succession, which is why it's actually a bit dangerous as a condi weapon.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Right now, and for quite some time really, core Engi hasn't offered anything that the elite specs don't do better. Other classes have elite specs that have trade offs, taking them means you lose out on something where as with Engi it seems to only be F5 skills for elites and an extra trait line. For some classes an extra trait line is a big deal, but for core Engi it just doesn't have enough of an impact to make a difference.

So my thinking is that F5's need to be more impactful and at least one Grand Master trait per-line should function differently when used without elites. An example of this is Necromancer's Dhuumfire which applies less Burns when slotted with Scourge. Maybe something like Big Boomer healing for significantly more, Modified Ammunition giving a greater bonus per-condition, Iron Blooded having an additional effect? I don't know, but something along those lines.

First and foremost I think F5's need to be buffed a little bit. Reworking Orbital Strike completely would be great since it does very little damage, has a long cast time, and doesn't offer anything that other skills can't do better, faster. Med Pack Drop is actually very good and could probably be left unchanged, but I think Toss Elixir X should still be buffed a little bit in some way too. Like maybe making it so that the duration of the Moa transformation increases by 1 second the less players it's hitting. So if it hits 3 players it has a duration of 3 seconds, if it hits 1 it has a duration of 5 seconds.

I'm not as good at making complete trait and skill reworks as some of the people are on these forums, so I'm not going to try. I'm just spitballing ideas trying to get a discussion started because I really want to see something more for core Engi.

One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

Some of the gyro's tool-belt skills are mediocre and removing the control of the player on what he brings on his belt would kill the elite spec for me. I actually don't even enjoy using most of the gyros anyway. Scrapper is fine as is about that.

Instead of "nerfing" scrapper or holo, we should ask for what really needs to happen for engi: QoL buff on base kits/core engi.
  1. Allow nade #1 and mortar #1 skills to autoattack the target when "autoattack" is activated on them. It's stupid how grenades can be used that way underwater but not on ground and it's stupid how mortar just doesn't work underwater.
  2. Bomb kit needs a buff too. I don't know how to make it work but it needs something. Maybe more CC. Because, as of right now, unless somebody is trying to be close enough to smell your rear, no opponent (outside of PVE) will remain close enough to you that your bombs will reliably hit them. It's really only useful against melee builds that never kite.
  3. Tool kit's skills #1 and 2 deal pitiful damage.
  4. Turrets are a joke outside of PVE. Similar to bomb kit, nobody will stay in their AoE. Also, most of the time, only their overcharge is useful so you drop them and then either instantly pick them back up if you want shorter CD or you detonate them.
  5. Rifle is in a dire need of damage buffs and fixing it's intended playstyle. Right now it's all over the place as net shot and overcharged shot would make you think we (the engi player) are supposed to stay at range but with jumpshot and blunderboss we need to get/be in melee range to deal the maximum damage. Also, the damage in general from rifle skills is really pitiful. And that self knockback is just sad lol.
  6. Pistols needs a "direct damage" buff too. It applies decent conditions but is mediocre when used in a power or hybrid build.

I don't agree. I think the only gyro toolbelt that's ok-ish, is chemical field. But even that can be useful when fighting on a node and you want to stunt your enemy's healing potential on the fly to secure the kill. The other gyro toolbelt skills are actually really good.and I forgot to mention the elite gyro wouldn't be included either as the F5 is already replaced with the function gyro.

I agree with turrets needing to be investigated. A shame they died like they did, they were nice. If anything, the necro minions needs either their survivability cut, as they're mobile and they hit hard, or their damage cut, as they're pretty high in health and mobile. Engi turrets in general need defensive boosts, since they're quite stationary. Currently the only trait that can benefit from having laid a turret on the ground is Experimental Turrets in Inventions, and even that is useless right now because the turrets die way too easily, so you really don't get to benefit from the trait too much at all.

Rifle doesn't need damage buffs imo, it can still hit pretty hard especially with rifle 5 and 3.

Pistols don't need a direct damage buff, but what they do need is a buff to their auto cast times. Currently, it reads a .5 cast time, when in actuality including the after cast of the auto, it takes .8 or so seconds to complete 1 auto attack. Meanwhile, ranger shortbow reads a .5 cast and actually reflects this cast, being able to shoot quick shots in succession, which is why it's actually a bit dangerous as a condi weapon.

Regarding Gyros, that's your opinion, I have mine. It also depends on the builds and most people would agree with me because they run with a single gyro (function gyro not counting), just look at metabattle builds. In WvW, some use sneak gyro just for the AoE stealth, but outside of this niche, people either run with ZERO or a SINGLE utility gyro. If the gyros were so good, every scrapper build would have multiple utility gyros equipped. They don't need nerfing like the original poster (that I quoted initially) said.

Regarding rifle, it OBJECTIVELY needs a buff. Not only in damage numbers but in the way the skills interact with each other as it makes no sense that some are made to keep the enemies at a distance and others are better used in CQC or to get in CQC. If you don't believe me that it objectively needs more damage, just go on your engi and look at the damage numbers on the rifle skills and compare them to holo's or scrapper's respective weapons skills, you'll see how bad it is.

Regarding pistol, I would agree it needs faster RoF on the autoattack but, as engi lacks weapon diversity, they should make core weapons have good coefficients and base damage for both power and condi builds. That's why I strongly believe they need to improve those coefficients on the pistol skills so you can also use it in a power or hybrid build, not just condi.

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I'd like to see turrets removed as utility items and moved into a toolkit that core engi could exclusively use with F5. One that is permanently there like holo forge and function gyro. The turrets would be placed then auto fire once and be manually triggered again after cooldowns. Would have the rifle, rocket, net and flame turrets as well as a turret that calls an orbital strike to make up for the removal of that as an f5 skill. I don't see how turrets can ever be good as a passive skill that just autofires at interval, if they are buffed then they will be OP pretty easily. With attacks that fire manually, they can buffed, edited with cooldowns and more skillfully used. Also being moved to a toolkit would have them interact with the tools traits.

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Only problem I have with buffing Turrets is that yet again it will be usable with Holosmith and Scrapper. I know it's difficult to avoid buffing Engi in a way that doesn't benefit the elites, but I think if ANet is going to change anything they should do what they can to give Engi more of an identity.

While I'm writing this I just had an idea for how to rework Orbital Strike. What if they changed it to be another Turret? Instead of a one time attack it works like any other Turret but it blasts damage in an area in intervals - "Sentry Turret".

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@Bingus.4236 said:That's why I said put them on an F5 toolkit, so that the elite specs couldn't use them.To use F5 for functionality it would have to be an elite toolkit, which means elite specs can use it.

If you suggest using the actual F5 for a toolkit then no thank you to ruining the one of the few things that makes todays core engineer worth playing - moaing people you've already beaten, not to mention guild commanders.

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The primary thing to address when looking at Core Engie, would be F5 skills.

As they currently stand, they're mostly weaker than Scrapper/Holo F5's, but also have crazy long CD's.

Some thoughts on them:

  • Orbital Strike: Cooldown reduced from 40s > 20s in PvE. Activation delay reduced from 4 eternities > 0.5s. (Optional: Also applies 0.5s Daze)
  • Med Pack Drop: Cooldown reduced from 50s > 25s. Med Packs now also grant Boons (Swiftness, Regen, Vigor, Protection)
  • Toss Elixir X: Cooldown reduced from 90s > 30s.

Also, some buffs to the actual Elites wouldn't go amiss (Though, wouldn't buff Core specifically as E-Specs can also use them)

  • Elite Mortar Kit: Mortar Shot now deals a secondary hit for 50% damage in the centre of the impact with a very small radius. (Mostly a PvE buff on the auto attack)
  • Elixir X: Given a unique transformation (I recall there being suggestions about an Ooze transformation)
  • Supply Crate: Cooldown reduced from 120s > 60s in PvE and 90s > 60s in PvP

Beyond that, the other way to improve Core Engie, is improve Core Specializations. So that picking 3 Core Specializations isn't actively making you worse over picking 2 and an E-Spec. While this can also benefit E-Specs as they also run 2 Core Specs, it would improve Core slightly more.

For the most part, I think there's some traits that are overly niche in what they do which could do with being tweaked or reworked.

Firearms

  • Sanguine Array
  • Pinpoint Distribution (Since it competes with Thermal Vision which is just vastly superior for a Condi build)
  • Modified Ammunition (It's cool in PvE vs bosses that are being painted with Conditions passively. But for OW/PvP its pretty lackluster)

Explosives

  • Aim-Assisted Rocket

Inventions

  • Automated Medical Response (You have to be hit while <25% life... And then get your heal skill off before you die...)
  • Experimental Turrets (Turrets are trash. Also, Turrets have been designed to be blown up after/during their Overcharge...)

Alchemy

  • Backpack Regenerator

Tools

  • Power Wrench (Why is this specifically for Tool Kit?)
  • Takedown Round
  • Kinetic Battery (It's a bit meme-y even for Static Discharge meme builds...)
  • Gadgeteer (Mostly because Gadgets suck and this providing sucky buffs to sucky Gadgets does not make a desirable trait)
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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Bingus.4236" said:That's why I said put them on an F5 toolkit, so that the elite specs couldn't use them.To use F5 for functionality it would have to be an elite toolkit, which means elite specs can use it.

If you suggest using the actual F5 for a toolkit then no thank you to ruining the one of the few things that makes todays core engineer worth playing - moaing people you've already beaten, not to mention guild commanders.

The F5 button is locked for the elite specs. That's why I said that button. Like core necro has it's own unique F5 ability, I don't see why engineer can't. The complaint is that you can't buff core engi without also buffing the engineer but if you create something only core can use then it gets round this. "moaing people you've already beaten" you mean moaing people who people with actually good classes have already beaten :) Don't need to delete anything, things can be moved.

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This is a pure pve perspective, i dont play wvw or pvp anymore...

Core engi has no real purpose but nostalgia. Scrapper does everything better when it comes to survivability and holo is a much better DPS.

When you play scrapper in open world the amount of generated barrier is insane, and the defensive aspects of hammer, traits and utility skills are great for a relaxed play. Most champs are easily soloed. Core builds cant keep up with that level of survivability.

When you play holo the DPS is just better as everything else engi has. Even condi builds are better with holo due to burning stacks. Damage coefficients of holo skills and damage modifiers is the perfect example of power creep. No matter how good you play with core, holo will do better DPS.

Additionally comes another problem. Core has only 2 trait lines which directly boost your DPS output: explosives and firearms. The other 3 trait lines are just bad for PvE, thats the reason your third trait line slot is reserved for an elite line.

How we could solve this problem? We need to rework the left core traitlines (in third slot) that one of this can be a real alternative to the elite line:

Alchemy seems fine and is mostly used in pvp/wvw mosty due to its boon output. I dont see any reason to rework of buff this one.

Tools needs a new identity by reworking in a way that it greatly improve kits and reward the engi by using/swapping kits. Gadgets need better traits and usage.

Inventions need better passive defense, improved and better turret traits (turret rework provided) and better condition clears for core builds. Mabye synergy with condition application and/or damage?

With reworked trait lines core could use explosives+firearms+tools or inventions for a serious build. When tools greatly improve kits core could compete with holo DPS. And with inventions core could have better defensive during fights and be more tanky.PvE holos and scrapper will take explosives and firearms anyway and buffed core trait lines (third slot) shouldnt break elite specs too much.

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One point mentioned here is really worth thinking about.

Elixir's currently are the only toolbelt skills which benefit from trait effects (besides the effects affecting toolbelt skills specifically), since elixir toolbelt skills are also tagged as elixirs for traits (on top of some kit skills also having that tag).Which is also one of the aspects that makes HGH such a great trait: it enhances tons of skills, not just the utility elixirs specifically.

If we could get a similar mechanic for the other utility skill types, that would be great.

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@Bingus.4236 said:

@Bingus.4236 said:That's why I said put them on an F5 toolkit, so that the elite specs couldn't use them.To use F5 for functionality it would have to be an elite toolkit, which means elite specs can use it.

If you suggest using the actual F5 for a toolkit then no thank you to ruining the one of the few things that makes todays core engineer worth playing - moaing people you've already beaten, not to mention guild commanders.

The F5 button is locked for the elite specs. That's why I said that button. Like core necro has it's own unique F5 ability, I don't see why engineer can't. The complaint is that you can't buff core engi without also buffing the engineer but if you create something only core can use then it gets round this. "moaing people you've already beaten" you mean moaing people who people with actually good classes have already beaten :) Don't need to delete anything, things can be moved.But it
cant
be moved. You suggest using F5 for a "turret toolkit", right? That deletes all current F5 abilities, period. You cant put them anywhere else without also giving them to scrapper and holo since they would either have to be moved to F1-F4 or a skill, which was kind of your point to
not
do.

Unless you are suggesting we get a moa turret that pulses moa transforms every second for 5 targets so that you could technically moa an entire zerg, which I'm down for.

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It's probably too late for this since it would require a lot of balancing, but I always felt the third spec slot should be boosted when a non-elite is put into it. The traits would either grant higher effects or additional effects depending on the trait.

Perhaps Engineer could get something like that, but I see the other classes complaining and demanding it also.

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@Capca.1607 said:It's probably too late for this since it would require a lot of balancing, but I always felt the third spec slot should be boosted when a non-elite is put into it. The traits would either grant higher effects or additional effects depending on the trait.

Perhaps Engineer could get something like that, but I see the other classes complaining and demanding it also.

Agreed but this would essentially split core engineer into a separate class...which is what should have happened with the specializations. This would have avoided having the core specs suffer when a particular specialization build is OP. Unfortunately this requires more effort which means it won't happen.

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@Ghos.1326 said:One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

Actually, I really like that Scrapper idea. It makes sense design-wise and would feel more like an actual class mechanic. The 'field' skills could still be reworked into proper Well-skills. However, might require too much work for ANet.

Regarding Holo: The disadvantage for Kits is kinda laughable imho and the negative effect on Toolbelt skills is also counterintuitive. Holo comes with Toolbelt skills after all. It would be way more interesting if Holos couldn't use Kits at all. Yes, that's a huge draw back for an Engineer. But that's how I feel Elite specs should impact gameplay and it wouldn't break any traits since PF can trigger them. This set up would make Kit-Toolbelts exclusive to base Engineer, Kits to base Engineer and Scrapper, Toolbelts to base Engineer and Holosmith.

Of course, this shake up would have the potential to destroy plenty of existing builds. :s

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:One of my ideas (for scrapper) is to make the toolbelt skills become the gyro well skills (besides the heal), making them unchangeable but providing the utility from the wells, and making the gyro toolbelt skills (example bubble from bulwark toolbelt) slottable utility skills that you can choose to take if you want, as a tradeoff for taking scrapper. Trading in your toolbelt skills (besides heal) for gyros since the theme of scrapper revolves around being a tank and gyros.For Holo, i think the forge mode disabling kits for a period of time is fine, so I wouldn't change anything on Holo.

Actually, I really like that Scrapper idea. It makes sense design-wise and would feel more like an actual class mechanic. The 'field' skills could still be reworked into proper Well-skills. However, might require too much work for ANet.

Regarding Holo: The disadvantage for Kits is kinda laughable imho and the negative effect on Toolbelt skills is also counterintuitive. Holo comes with Toolbelt skills after all. It would be way more interesting if Holos couldn't use Kits at all. Yes, that's a huge draw back for an Engineer. But that's how I feel Elite specs should impact gameplay and it wouldn't break any traits since PF can trigger them. This set up would make Kit-Toolbelts exclusive to base Engineer, Kits to base Engineer and Scrapper, Toolbelts to base Engineer and Holosmith.

Of course, this shake up would have the potential to destroy plenty of existing builds. :s

Being locked out of an entire utility skill category also would feel really unfair as long as other classes don't have to give up a utility skill type as well....

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@Kodama.6453 said:Being locked out of an entire utility skill category also would feel really unfair as long as other classes don't have to give up a utility skill type as well....

We already are. If you look on the Utility Skills, every class has 5 types with 4 skills each. Engineer has 4 types with 5 skills each.

The idea of boosting Core without having an impact on Holosmith and Scrapper does not work. If we follow that path, our class will become even more broken.

When you check other classes, you always end up weighting the pros and cons of each trait. You are never really happy, because you always sacrifice one traitline in favor of another. On Engineer, if you want something good, you go with either Scrapper or Holosmith. If you run Core, you weaken yourself. The Elite Specializations are designed to be stronger than Core. But in our case, the other traitlines are not powerful enough to get to a decent result at all.

For now, they have started with a great Explosives rework. Many of us agree, there is barely a thing that does not work out there. But that is only one of five traitlines. We need a rework on the other 4 as well.

Tools currently only enhances one kit (Toolkit) and gives utility buffs when using kits in general. No serious improvements to specific kits. For some weird reason, the Juggernaut trait is in Fire Arms.

Inventions is our support-traitline. Some traits work great, others not even close. We lost RR because of its synergy with MDF, which was a hard blow. MDF is a mess alone, same goes for the Turret trait and the Turrets themselves. Automated BOMB Disperser, why is this in Inventions? Same goes for Bunker Down.

Fire Arms, should stay as it is. So many of us rely on this trait, but it is also bodged together. Juggernaut is missplaced. As Kodama wrote in another thread, there is too much RNG.

Alchemy, the sPvP players will hate me for this, but this traitline also has its flaws. There is Backpack Regenerator, which is a Kit trait. Health Insurance is a Support & Kit trait, but does not exist in either Tools or Inventions. Purity of Purpose, been there at pop patch. I still cannot laugh about this.

When the other four traitlines are in the same state of Explosives, picking only Core traitlines would not be such a huge disadvantage anymore. The skills do have an impact on their own, Turrets and the Gadgets need an overhaul for sure.

The F5 skill works as it is, in my opinion. It is already a trade-off. It would be nice if Orbital Strike had the same cast-time as the Function Gyro. In addition, Power Wrench should also affect the Elite Toolbelt. They can extend the cooldown of Photon Forge and Function Gyro in competitive, if they really see a problem. Those are the only changes I would apply on F5.

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@Kodama.6453 said:Being locked out of an entire utility skill category also would feel really unfair as long as other classes don't have to give up a utility skill type as well....

Being locked out of a full Utility group might not make sense for just any class. However, I do feel that it might make sense for Holo and Kits considering that PF basically is an overpowered holographic Kit. At least more sense than disabling Toolbelt skills... But yes... other classes should get real trade offs as well. If this means it is easier to balance the Elite specs with core I'm fine with meaningful and purposeful limitations for them. For example, I'd really enjoy an Elementalist spec that sacrifices one or two Attunements for gaining in-fight weapon swap. Right now, I do somewhat enjoy Scrapper. But let's be honest here... Function Gyro is not a proper (class) mechanic. And other specs face similar issues.

I sincerely believe that the implementation of proper trade offs is something ANet has to deliver on for every class/spec before the expansion launches - or at last when it launches. Like they did the big trait rework before HoT released. If trade offs are still a thing ANet is actually pursuing design-wise...

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Being locked out of an entire utility skill category also would feel really unfair as long as other classes don't have to give up a utility skill type as well....

Being locked out of a full Utility group might not make sense for just any class. However, I do feel that it might make sense for Holo and Kits considering that PF basically is an overpowered holographic Kit. At least more sense than disabling Toolbelt skills... But yes... other classes should get real trade offs as well. If this means it is easier to balance the Elite specs with core I'm fine with meaningful and purposeful limitations for them. For example, I'd really enjoy an Elementalist spec that sacrifices one or two Attunements for gaining in-fight weapon swap. Right now, I do somewhat enjoy Scrapper. But let's be honest here... Function Gyro is not a proper (class) mechanic. And other specs face similar issues.

I sincerely believe that the implementation of proper trade offs is something ANet has to deliver on for
every class/spec
before the expansion launches - or at last when it launches. Like they did the big trait rework before HoT released. If trade offs are still a thing ANet is actually pursuing design-wise...

I think locking us out of kits for holosmith is reducing build diversity way too much.

You have to consider that our kits are a replacement for weapons. Photon forge would be required to get an extreme buff to make up for that severe loss in adaptability. Not to mention that a huge amount of traits from engineer are also completely disabled for holosmith, something that is not the case for any other class. All other elite specs can still use all traits available for them, but locking holosmith out of kits disables:

  • grenadier
  • juggernaut
  • health insurance
  • backpack regenerator
  • power wrench
  • streamlined kits

The only way to make these traits work with holosmith, if you really consider the photon forge to be some kind of "super kit", would be to make all these traits interact with photon forge as the replacement instead. Not sure how people would like if holosmith starts perma pulsing stability while in photon forge on top of might.But something would need to be done, you can't just take away 1/4th of our core utility skills and 6 core traits from holosmith.

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