Help vs Condi thief

[Kuma.1503]

Disclaimer: this is not a condi thief complaint thread. Any phrases which appear as such can be chalked up to salt from dying to this annoying twatwaffle of a build. :)

I do not know how to deal with condi thief burst. Most of it comes from steal, which is a 1200 range instant cast port with no tell. You then get spammed by repeater from range and it really isnt feasble to LoS under most scenarios. Unlike lich which you can prepare for, condi thief's burst can come at any time without warning.

Obvious counterplay here is to wait for the cover condis to fall off and cleanse, but when playing a class which has poor cleanse by design, I'm at a loss.

In this example, I like to play a good amount of renegade where I'm forced to burn a bunch of important cooldowns to break out of basi venom and mitigate the burst, immediately putting me at a large disadvantage. If my jallis heal or renewing wave get interrupted (both 1 second casts), I'm dead.

My problem here is that I do not know how to avoid being put in this position in the first place. Steal from any other thief build is no big deal. Yes there is no reliable counterplay to preventing it, but it's what the thief does afterwards that you need to play around.

Against condi thief, steal itself is what wins them the +1. I'm at a loss at what to do. `

[CutesySylveon.8290]

This build can counter you pretty hard. Steal into their burst combo makes you have to blow a lot of resources trying to deal with the condi, meanwhile they can keep pressuring you all the while. Best to avoid them if possible.

[Garret.1965]

If you're at a total loss of what to do, I suggest you get on your thief (or make one) and practice using the build vs some golems/npcs. Having an understanding of the build and how it works is invaluable. Its also important to understand if you're in a losing matchup or not. If you don't have much cleanse, don't expect to win vs this build. Its just how conditions work in this game. Boring, I know.

Beyond that, using reflects/projectile denial, and abusing LoS, will be your best friends in this matchup.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

• Save your big cleanse for their steal burst, most thieves will blow a lot of initiative and cooldowns along with steal. If you cleanse that burst quickly you put them at a big disadvantage.
• Keep pressure on them whether its your own condis, aoe, burst, etc. Condi thief barely has any defense other than mobility and stealth.
• When fighting pretty much any thief build, you need to pay attention to the map and enemy rotations. Thieves are much easier to handle if you know roughly where they are and where they are likely to be. For example, you can jump to no port spots, position yourself to kite away if you get bursted, save defensive skills in anticipation for burst, etc.

Unless they hard counter your build, this should be enough to deal with them in most situations. Good thieves will always be a pain, but with practice its pretty easy to anticipate and counter the average ones. Also if your build has projectile defense that helps a ton.

[Vancho.8750]

Dodge, block or find cover after you see the conditions from Steal, the 6 confusion stacks are your queue, usually the thief will do a repeater after Steal. Also maybe even drop into Retribution for the projectile dome. Other options Revenant rune or Resistance rune .

[Trianox.3486]

Good approach to that sensitive topic! I like that, thanks!

First, we have to acknowledge that certain builds have a lot of diversity/options, while other are more limited, or some really perform well in a rock-paper-scissor format, whether they were designed wth that in mind, or that they acquire such a role with shifting meta, and builds you'd commonly meet in game.Second, well, Pistol-Dagger condi thief is especially built against melee builds with low mobility, and will perform even better against builds with average mobility (as you offer the thief more opportunity to re-use shadow-strike) , but will tend to take a beating from

• ranged build (Renegade with Shortbow, any ranger really, etc.) or
• melee build with many ports (Mirage, or Revenant with Shiro Legend could qulify here, even Mallyx), or
• range or melee builds with built-in kite/evades (thinking of certain Soulbeast builds as an example, or Shiro again that allows you to teleport in, but also retreat very fast).

Second, Revenant (core, renegade or herald) have very specific weaknesses, which you can usually trait around ("Legend around" too), as you know, but then you overly expose yourself to other types of issues/pressures. That sort of thief, as you pointed out performs really well against build with low condi-cleanse, because altho it can be a bit bursty, it does not reach the potential of a decent burn Guardian or Scourge.

Third, try to identify whether it's a daredevil (600 range swipe) or a core thief (1200 range steal), because both can be very slippery, but in different manners.

So now, to specific tips/hints...1) The second he ports-in:1.a) Dodge + daze/taunt/etc depending on your active Legend. If you're on Jalis, Taunt, and either shift to staff for a stun (surge of the mist) or my favorite would be Warding Rift to put blind on him (if you are fast enough you avoid the shadowstrike if he is on core thief),OR1.b) Taunt, do auto-attack and keep your other disabling ability after he used his break stuns such as Roll of Initiatives (50 sec CD) or his Shadowstep (also 50 sec CD). If you successfully disable him, you can try to burst, but Roll or Shadowstep are likely to have you miss your burst, so I would really advice for something that blinds and will mess up his rotation.

(If you missed your dodge (1.a) or missed your taunt (1.b) and he is already gone, to to step 2))(If he plays with Shadow Art, for bonus dmg on stealth and venom applications, and such, he's likely to steal, try a sneak attack with all the bonuses (venom trait, plus the leeching, plus maybe an actual venom skill) before doing Shadowstike, leaving you more room for a successful counter using taunt, or blinds, or else).

2.a) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike you can either port to him (phase travel on Shiro) as the thief will be stuck out of "shadow strike" for a short moment, and will force him to disengage.OR2.b) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you run opposite direction and dodge, as aside from steal and shadowstep (especially if daredevil), there isn't many ways for him to get back "to" you and complete his full rotation for optimal damages.

3) Try to dodge or block Repeater (2nd sequence of Shadow strike) and use range such as Renegade Shortbow, because other ranged option for the thief are actually not that great, you can overpower the boy. If he uses stealth, go for AoE.

4) Sigil of cleansing to remove cove condi on weapon or legend swap, or getting some resistance to survive the condi will let cover-condi wear off before you go for your cleanse

5) Don't be fooled by the torment application. It's only 2k damage IF you move, 1k if you don't. Mobility is your ally. The bleeding (or poison to a lesser extend) is threatening both because of the volume of damage, AND in teh case of poison because it weakens your heal, of course and as you know.

I'm not a great Revenant, but when playing condi thief (75% of my game time is on my thief), I know that if someone applies pressure as good as I can, I'll need to keep porting away and therefore won't deal all the damage I could... and it becomes a time sink, then my team start yelling... haha.

[Kuma.1503]

@Trianox.3486 said:snip

Wow, this is remarkably helpful and in depth. I'll study this and see what I can learn.

I am grateful that you took the time to write this :)

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Trianox.3486" said:Good approach to that sensitive topic! I like that, thanks!

First, we have to acknowledge that certain builds have a lot of diversity/options, while other are more limited, or some really perform well in a rock-paper-scissor format, whether they were designed wth that in mind, or that they acquire such a role with shifting meta, and builds you'd commonly meet in game.Second, well, Pistol-Dagger condi thief is especially built against melee builds with low mobility, and will perform even better against builds with average mobility (as you offer the thief more opportunity to re-use shadow-strike) , but will tend to take a beating from

• ranged build (Renegade with Shortbow, any ranger really, etc.) or
• melee build with many ports (Mirage, or Revenant with Shiro Legend could qulify here, even Mallyx), or
• range or melee builds with built-in kite/evades (thinking of certain Soulbeast builds as an example, or Shiro again that allows you to teleport in, but also retreat very fast).

Second, Revenant (core, renegade or herald) have very specific weaknesses, which you can usually trait around ("Legend around" too), as you know, but then you overly expose yourself to other types of issues/pressures. That sort of thief, as you pointed out performs really well against build with low condi-cleanse, because altho it can be a bit bursty, it does not reach the potential of a decent burn Guardian or Scourge.

Third, try to identify whether it's a daredevil (600 range swipe) or a core thief (1200 range steal), because both can be very slippery, but in different manners.

So now, to specific tips/hints...1) The second he ports-in:1.a) Dodge + daze/taunt/etc depending on your active Legend. If you're on Jalis, Taunt, and either shift to staff for a stun (surge of the mist) or my favorite would be Warding Rift to put blind on him (if you are fast enough you avoid the shadowstrike if he is on core thief),OR1.b) Taunt, do auto-attack and keep your other disabling ability after he used his break stuns such as Roll of Initiatives (50 sec CD) or his Shadowstep (also 50 sec CD). If you successfully disable him, you can try to burst, but Roll or Shadowstep are likely to have you miss your burst, so I would really advice for something that blinds and will mess up his rotation.

(If you missed your dodge (1.a) or missed your taunt (1.b) and he is already gone, to to step 2))(If he plays with Shadow Art, for bonus dmg on stealth and venom applications, and such, he's likely to steal, try a sneak attack with all the bonuses (venom trait, plus the leeching, plus maybe an actual venom skill) before doing Shadowstike, leaving you more room for a successful counter using taunt, or blinds, or else).

2.a) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike you can either port to him (phase travel on Shiro) as the thief will be stuck out of "shadow strike" for a short moment, and will force him to disengage.OR2.b) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you run opposite direction and dodge, as aside from steal and shadowstep (especially if daredevil), there isn't many ways for him to get back "to" you and complete his full rotation for optimal damages.

3) Try to dodge or block Repeater (2nd sequence of Shadow strike) and use range such as Renegade Shortbow, because other ranged option for the thief are actually not that great, you can overpower the boy. If he uses stealth, go for AoE.

4) Sigil of cleansing to remove cove condi on weapon or legend swap, or getting some resistance to survive the condi will let cover-condi wear off before you go for your cleanse

5) Don't be fooled by the torment application. It's only 2k damage IF you move, 1k if you don't. Mobility is your ally. The bleeding (or poison to a lesser extend) is threatening both because of the volume of damage, AND in teh case of poison because it weakens your heal, of course and as you know.

I'm not a great Revenant, but when playing condi thief (75% of my game time is on my thief), I know that if someone applies pressure as good as I can, I'll need to keep porting away and therefore won't deal all the damage I could... and it becomes a time sink, then my team start yelling... haha.

suggesting mirage to "counter" condi thief, not gonna lie, I kekW'ed at this one, thx

[Trianox.3486]

@Kuma.1503Thanks, buddy!

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:suggesting mirage to "counter" condi thief, not gonna lie, I kekW'ed at this one, thx

Can the ugly counter the uglier? ;-)

Well, it does have the toolkit to deal with P/D condi thief, but spec'ing specifically can open up other weaknesses. I was giving it as an example of a melee (or you can make it range for Mirage of course) with enough ports to deal with P/D condi thief.Mirage has a really nice combination of port-in and port-out/evades. Played by more or less evenly skilled players, Mirage could take down condi P/D. I've seen it happen both ways.Both are squishy, so it's really (I think), a question of who's going to get to other one off guard or just outplay him/her. Thief is very susceptible to falling when facing enough disables, and Mirage are good at throwing that around.I guess it also depends at what level of play we talk about.

You could very well have the thief catch the mirage off guard and down him very fast, but the same can be said the other way around.I must also say that the way P/D toolkit works (single target, porting in and creating distance to unload Repeater, etc. the whole rotation) isn't necessirly super easy to pull off when you suddently have illusions all around messing up you LoS. Of course, skilled thief will get around that, but just the same way that a skilled Mirage should be able to pin down that thief or evade the "deadliest" part of the rotation. Because really, if you think about it, there is a specific rotation every 20 sec (core thief, Trickery, DA, SA) or 16.5 sec (DrD with trikery and DA), or 25 sec (DrD, DA, SA)... and outside of that I'm NOT saying the that condi thief is useless, but it's really not as effective... unless of course he starts swapping weapons around, or that the Mirage just rushes him braindead giving the opportunity for even more Shadowstrike-Repeater sequences.

[KrHome.1920]

You do either counter thief with ranged burst or teleport burst or it counters you. It doesn't matter which damage type the thief runs. The class is super one-dimensional.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Trianox.3486" what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.

EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

[DonNee.5128]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Trianox.3486" what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.

EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

press maybe dodge or f4

[Leonidrex.5649]

@DonNee.5128 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Trianox.3486" what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.

EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

press maybe dodge or f4

ah yes, the 1s invulnerability :)or 2 cleanse to remove 2 covers like cripple and bleed :)

[Trianox.3486]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Trianox.3486" what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

I did not "show" anything about Mirage, I didn't talk of rotation or anything. But again, Mirage is very well equiped to deal with cthief, or thief in general.I agree with @KrHome.1920 here. The builds that are the most ran, thief side, are usually quite one-dimensional bursty thief.

As for the rest of your argument, and the numbers you bring into the discussion, it has to be contextualized.Thief cannot apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range. That's just not true, and that thinking probably is the reason why you loose your fights.A thief can deliver about 20k yes, but it's a whole sequence, and you got to understand it to counter it.

Of course if you have no dodge, and that you already spent ALL your cooldown you'll die, who would not. That's true for every PvP fight... especially if outnumbered.PvP is also about learning to use your skills at the right moment, saving some of them for ennemies that you know that are part of ennemy team composition; or spreading them over so everything is not on cooldown at once... And that tells me a lot, I'm not a top player, but I'll say it anyways: if you find yourself in 1v1 during which you burnt all your cooldown, you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to your oponent who might have been using his skills more sporadictly, and you're super exposed to any +1 pressure. You will fall to that +1 thief easily. You're almost asking for it.If you look at pro players (or the closest we have from that hehe), you often notice that they almost never have all their skills on cooldowns, unless they know that doing so, spending everything at once will win them the fight right away, allowing for the cap/decap, etc.

Let's look at the real numbers.

If we talk core thief (DA, SA, TR, assuming let's say carrion and sigil of poisoning)1rst moveSteal is 1200 range, but then it ports him right next to you (not at 1k range!) with 3921 condi over 12.5 seconds. That's 313,68 dmg per sec.If he plays Shadow art and spent some time in stealth, he could have 2 more venom stacks with Leeching Venom (1176 dmg over 3.75 sec, so another 313.6 per sec for almost 4 seconds)So steal plus SA Leeching Venoms is roughtly 5k condi, with 4 seconds at 626 dmg per second, and 8 .5 seconds at 313 dmg per second. It's really not a whole lot if you don't panic.2nd moveAssuming he was stealth, he will then use a SneakAttack (900 range, not 1k), but because of steal is is right next to you.Sneak will do 1015 power dmg, plus 281 dmg from bonus stealth attack, as well as 2980 bleeding dmg over 5 sec (596 per sec). Both physical dmg and bleeding are incoming by 5 diffrent hits over a full second, which is enough to dodge part of that dmg, and then, of course the bleed is over 5 sec duration.That's a total of a little over 4k dmg,

3rd move and 4th moveShadow strike is a port-out and puts him at 600 range (not 1k!), there is a shot damage of 888+213 stab dmg, so 1.1k.Condi wise: Torment 2 stacks of total of 1066 dmg over 6 seconds, or 2131 if you move, over 6 sec.Poison, 2 stacks (assuming deadly ambition is traited) for a total of 1176 dmg over 3.75 sec.THEN, Repeated is toggled, allowing for 1015 power dmg in 5 hits, and 5 stacks of bleeding (one per hit), for a total of 2384 bleeding over 4 sec, the attack takes 1.25 sec to deliver a full repeater.

Big total here is 16 164 dmg, applied in 4 differents "moves" . The first one is instant, the second takes 1 sec, the 3rd and 4th move takes together about 2 sec. So all of that happens within about 3-5 seconds, and a single dodge, blurr or whatever, will have you avoid about half of that.Then aside from about 3k physical dmg, the rest is 13k condi, which is applied about a 15 second period.

Every other skill he has is going to hit like a wet noodle. He needs to re-stealth to be able to stack more venom and do another sneak attack with pistol.Cleansing can be done at any point during that fight, but optimally, it should come after the Sneak attack or right after Repeater, depending which you were able to dodge.

Now if that thief also brought in, let's say, Spider Venom AND Skale, he'll add up about 2-3k more dmg, but would have also wasted 2 utilities for that... exposing him to counter attack, and leaving him with fewer stealth options.

Use a single dodge or a single cleanse half way through and you save yourself half the damage, and you have enough room to counter-pressure, and it will take 15-25 secondes before he can try to pull off a similar sequence again. So once you cleanse or dodge, you have to pick whether you want to keep fighting, in a 1v2, or pull out, or call in support, etc.

[Trianox.3486]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:ah yes, the 1s invulnerability :)or 2 cleanse to remove 2 covers like cripple and bleed :)Oh and... bleeding in THIS scenario is NOT a cover condi, it's the one that is actually hurting you the most.

[Kuma.1503]

After playing the build a bit, looking at arcdps logs, and reading up on tips posted here, I'm feeling a bit more confident against cthief.

As it turns out, steal isn't what kills you, it loads you up with tons of condis which makes it easy to panic, but it's not the main thing to worry about. It's the repeater damage + bleeds that kill you. All the other condis they apply are just cover/icing on the cake.

It looks like your best bet vs core thief is to use a block, invuln, evade, LoS ect. after they've stolen onto you to prevent the repeater burst. Still a toughie to deal with if they +1 you but not unbeatable like I initially thought.

[Trianox.3486]

@Kuma.1503 said:After playing the build a bit, looking at arcdps logs, and reading up on tips posted here, I'm feeling a bit more confident against cthief.

As it turns out, steal isn't what kills you, it loads you up with tons of condis which makes it easy to panic, but it's not the main thing to worry about. It's the repeater damage + bleeds that kill you. All the other condis they apply are just cover/icing on the cake.

It looks like your best bet vs core thief is to use a block, invuln, evade, LoS ect. after they've stolen onto you to prevent the repeater burst. Still a toughie to deal with if they +1 you but not unbeatable like I initially thought.

If you want, ping me in game and we can train. ;-)

[SteepledHat.1345]

@Kuma.1503 said:Disclaimer: this is not a condi thief complaint thread. Any phrases which appear as such can be chalked up to salt from dying to this annoying twatwaffle of a build. :)

I do not know how to deal with condi thief burst. Most of it comes from steal, which is a 1200 range instant cast port with no tell. You then get spammed by repeater from range and it really isnt feasble to LoS under most scenarios. Unlike lich which you can prepare for, condi thief's burst can come at any time without warning.

Obvious counterplay here is to wait for the cover condis to fall off and cleanse, but when playing a class which has poor cleanse by design, I'm at a loss.

In this example, I like to play a good amount of renegade where I'm forced to burn a bunch of important cooldowns to break out of basi venom and mitigate the burst, immediately putting me at a large disadvantage. If my jallis heal or renewing wave get interrupted (both 1 second casts), I'm dead.

My problem here is that I do not know how to avoid being put in this position in the first place. Steal from any other thief build is no big deal. Yes there is no reliable counterplay to preventing it, but it's what the thief does afterwards that you need to play around.

Against condi thief, steal itself is what wins them the +1. I'm at a loss at what to do. `

If you see one play ventari or Ret for Dome. Most of that condi is projectiles.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Disclaimer: this is not a condi thief complaint thread. Any phrases which appear as such can be chalked up to salt from dying to this annoying twatwaffle of a build. :)

I do not know how to deal with condi thief burst. Most of it comes from steal, which is a 1200 range instant cast port with no tell. You then get spammed by repeater from range and it really isnt feasble to LoS under most scenarios. Unlike lich which you can prepare for, condi thief's burst can come at any time without warning.

Obvious counterplay here is to wait for the cover condis to fall off and cleanse, but when playing a class which has poor cleanse by design, I'm at a loss.

In this example, I like to play a good amount of renegade where I'm forced to burn a bunch of important cooldowns to break out of basi venom and mitigate the burst, immediately putting me at a large disadvantage. If my jallis heal or renewing wave get interrupted (both 1 second casts), I'm dead.

My problem here is that I do not know how to avoid being put in this position in the first place. Steal from any other thief build is no big deal. Yes there is no reliable counterplay to preventing it, but it's what the thief does afterwards that you need to play around.

Against condi thief, steal itself is what wins them the +1. I'm at a loss at what to do. `

If you see one play ventari or Ret for Dome. Most of that condi is projectiles.

Going Ventari for this build will put you at an extreme disadvantage against any melee build.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trianox.3486 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Trianox.3486 what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

I did not "show" anything about Mirage, I didn't talk of rotation or anything. But again, Mirage is very well equiped to deal with cthief, or thief in general.I agree with @KrHome.1920 here. The builds that are the most ran, thief side, are usually quite one-dimensional bursty thief.

As for the rest of your argument, and the numbers you bring into the discussion, it has to be contextualized.Thief cannot apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range. That's just not true, and that thinking probably is the reason why you loose your fights.

A thief can deliver about 20k yes, but it's a whole sequence, and you got to understand it to counter it.

Of course if you have no dodge, and that you already spent ALL your cooldown you'll die, who would not. That's true for every PvP fight... especially if outnumbered.PvP is also about learning to use your skills at the right moment, saving some of them for ennemies that you know that are part of ennemy team composition; or spreading them over so everything is not on cooldown at once... And that tells me a lot, I'm not a top player, but I'll say it anyways: if you find yourself in 1v1 during which you burnt all your cooldown, you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to your oponent who might have been using his skills more sporadictly, and you're super exposed to any +1 pressure. You will fall to that +1 thief easily. You're almost asking for it.If you look at pro players (or the closest we have from that hehe), you often notice that they almost never have all their skills on cooldowns, unless they know that doing so, spending everything at once will win them the fight right away, allowing for the cap/decap, etc.

Let's look at the real numbers.

If we talk core thief (DA, SA, TR, assuming let's say carrion and sigil of poisoning)

1rst move

Steal is 1200 range, but then it ports him right next to you (not at 1k range!) with 3921 condi over 12.5 seconds. That's 313,68 dmg per sec.If he plays Shadow art and spent some time in stealth, he could have 2 more venom stacks with Leeching Venom (1176 dmg over 3.75 sec, so another 313.6 per sec for almost 4 seconds)So steal plus SA Leeching Venoms is roughtly 5k condi, with 4 seconds at 626 dmg per second, and 8 .5 seconds at 313 dmg per second. It's really not a whole lot if you don't panic.

2nd move

Assuming he was stealth, he will then use a SneakAttack (900 range, not 1k), but because of steal is is right next to you.Sneak will do 1015 power dmg, plus 281 dmg from bonus stealth attack, as well as 2980 bleeding dmg over 5 sec (596 per sec). Both physical dmg and bleeding are incoming by 5 diffrent hits over a full second, which is enough to dodge part of that dmg, and then, of course the bleed is over 5 sec duration.That's a total of a little over 4k dmg,

3rd move and 4th move

Shadow strike is a port-out and puts him at 600 range (not 1k!), there is a shot damage of 888+213 stab dmg, so 1.1k.Condi wise: Torment 2 stacks of total of 1066 dmg over 6 seconds, or 2131 if you move, over 6 sec.Poison, 2 stacks (assuming deadly ambition is traited) for a total of 1176 dmg over 3.75 sec.THEN, Repeated is toggled, allowing for 1015 power dmg in 5 hits, and 5 stacks of bleeding (one per hit), for a total of 2384 bleeding over 4 sec, the attack takes 1.25 sec to deliver a full repeater.

Big total here is 16 164 dmg, applied in 4 differents "moves" . The first one is instant, the second takes 1 sec, the 3rd and 4th move takes together about 2 sec. So all of that happens within about 3-5 seconds, and a single dodge, blurr or whatever, will have you avoid about half of that.Then aside from about 3k physical dmg, the rest is 13k condi, which is applied about a 15 second period.

Every other skill he has is going to hit like a wet noodle. He needs to re-stealth to be able to stack more venom and do another sneak attack with pistol.Cleansing can be done at any point during that fight, but optimally, it should come after the Sneak attack or right after Repeater, depending which you were able to dodge.

Now if that thief also brought in, let's say, Spider Venom AND Skale, he'll add up about 2-3k more dmg, but would have also wasted 2 utilities for that... exposing him to counter attack, and leaving him with fewer stealth options.

Use a single dodge or a single cleanse half way through and you save yourself half the damage, and you have enough room to counter-pressure, and it will take 15-25 secondes before he can try to pull off a similar sequence again. So once you cleanse or dodge, you have to pick whether you want to keep fighting, in a 1v2, or pull out, or call in support, etc.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUpjlFwQYhsN2JOuOrrbA-zZoOjCEBpIEc8Acurrent quicklink for the build.openener 3->f1->3 ( venom during 3 )damageVenom gives 4 vulnerabilityF1 gives 5 vulnerability and 8 mighttotal vulnerability : 9, total might : 8 ( im guessing you didnt account for it did you ?venoms apply power damage ( you didnt account for it either ofc )steal : 3984 poison damage6 stacks of confusion, 1200 dmg/tick3 ( first part stab ) 250 power, 2100 torment damage, 1200 poison damagevenom proc 600 poison 180 powerUp to this point all of this damage is instant from stealth from 1200 range.Grand total of 8300 damage ( counting with 5 might )After that you use 3, repeater during which you use venom.you apply1200 power damage, 3000 bleed1x poison venom for 600 poison, 180 power4x skale venom for 720 power damage and 3464 torment.this is another 9100 damage, it also applies 4 vulnerability.add in previous damage add in more might then actually exist add in 9 vulnerability and here you have ~18k-20k dmg. Add in confusion.all of it under cover of ( vulnerability, cripple, weakness, confusion )

[KrHome.1920]

The burst damage Leonidrex described is real (I played the build). The build does almost only channelled attacks and that is its vulnerable spot. So it can easily be hard cc'd and 2 hard cc's in less than 40 seconds (traited shadowstep cooldown) and it is done - thanks to the squishy carrion amulet. So the thief has to act very patiently once shadowstep is on cooldown.

In wvw this build is usually full trailblazer. The burst damage is lower (no power attribute), but the condi duration is increased and thanks to the toughness it can facetank for one or two channels and so apply more conditions.

Usually the best movement strategy is to move away from the build as it is low on gap closers and either has to switch to shortbow or to use shadowstep offensively (which can be punished).

If I would play renegade I would run shiro (riposting shadows is the key skill here) and try to land shortbow5 + burst as often as possible.

[Trianox.3486]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Trianox.3486 what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.EDITmirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.it boils down to1 thief attacks2a if you dont have cooldowns you die2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure3a you lose the game3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

I did not "show" anything about Mirage, I didn't talk of rotation or anything. But again, Mirage is very well equiped to deal with cthief, or thief in general.I agree with @KrHome.1920 here. The builds that are the most ran, thief side, are usually quite one-dimensional bursty thief.

As for the rest of your argument, and the numbers you bring into the discussion, it has to be contextualized.Thief cannot apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range. That's just not true, and that thinking probably is the reason why you loose your fights.

A thief can deliver about 20k yes, but it's a whole sequence, and you got to understand it to counter it.

Of course if you have no dodge, and that you already spent ALL your cooldown you'll die, who would not. That's true for every PvP fight... especially if outnumbered.PvP is also about learning to use your skills at the right moment, saving some of them for ennemies that you know that are part of ennemy team composition; or spreading them over so everything is not on cooldown at once... And that tells me a lot, I'm not a top player, but I'll say it anyways: if you find yourself in 1v1 during which you burnt all your cooldown, you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to your oponent who might have been using his skills more sporadictly, and you're super exposed to any +1 pressure. You will fall to that +1 thief easily. You're almost asking for it.If you look at pro players (or the closest we have from that hehe), you often notice that they almost never have all their skills on cooldowns, unless they know that doing so, spending everything at once will win them the fight right away, allowing for the cap/decap, etc.

Let's look at the real numbers.

If we talk core thief (DA, SA, TR, assuming let's say carrion and sigil of poisoning)

1rst move

Steal is 1200 range, but then it ports him right next to you (not at 1k range!) with 3921 condi over 12.5 seconds. That's 313,68 dmg per sec.If he plays Shadow art and spent some time in stealth, he could have 2 more venom stacks with Leeching Venom (1176 dmg over 3.75 sec, so another 313.6 per sec for almost 4 seconds)So steal plus SA Leeching Venoms is roughtly 5k condi, with 4 seconds at 626 dmg per second, and 8 .5 seconds at 313 dmg per second. It's really not a whole lot if you don't panic.

2nd move

Assuming he was stealth, he will then use a SneakAttack (900 range, not 1k), but because of steal is is right next to you.Sneak will do 1015 power dmg, plus 281 dmg from bonus stealth attack, as well as 2980 bleeding dmg over 5 sec (596 per sec). Both physical dmg and bleeding are incoming by 5 diffrent hits over a full second, which is enough to dodge part of that dmg, and then, of course the bleed is over 5 sec duration.That's a total of a little over 4k dmg,

3rd move and 4th move

Shadow strike is a port-out and puts him at 600 range (not 1k!), there is a shot damage of 888+213 stab dmg, so 1.1k.Condi wise: Torment 2 stacks of total of 1066 dmg over 6 seconds, or 2131 if you move, over 6 sec.Poison, 2 stacks (assuming deadly ambition is traited) for a total of 1176 dmg over 3.75 sec.THEN, Repeated is toggled, allowing for 1015 power dmg in 5 hits, and 5 stacks of bleeding (one per hit), for a total of 2384 bleeding over 4 sec, the attack takes 1.25 sec to deliver a full repeater.

Big total here is 16 164 dmg, applied in 4 differents "moves" . The first one is instant, the second takes 1 sec, the 3rd and 4th move takes together about 2 sec. So all of that happens within about 3-5 seconds, and a single dodge, blurr or whatever, will have you avoid about half of that.Then aside from about 3k physical dmg, the rest is 13k condi, which is applied about a 15 second period.

Every other skill he has is going to hit like a wet noodle. He needs to re-stealth to be able to stack more venom and do another sneak attack with pistol.Cleansing can be done at any point during that fight, but optimally, it should come after the Sneak attack or right after Repeater, depending which you were able to dodge.

Now if that thief also brought in, let's say, Spider Venom AND Skale, he'll add up about 2-3k more dmg, but would have also wasted 2 utilities for that... exposing him to counter attack, and leaving him with fewer stealth options.

Use a single dodge or a single cleanse half way through and you save yourself half the damage, and you have enough room to counter-pressure, and it will take 15-25 secondes before he can try to pull off a similar sequence again. So once you cleanse or dodge, you have to pick whether you want to keep fighting, in a 1v2, or pull out, or call in support, etc.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUpjlFwQYhsN2JOuOrrbA-zZoOjCEBpIEc8A

current quicklink for the build.openener 3->f1->3 ( venom during 3 )damageVenom gives 4 vulnerabilityF1 gives 5 vulnerability and 8 mighttotal vulnerability : 9, total might : 8 ( im guessing you didnt account for it did you ?venoms apply power damage ( you didnt account for it either ofc )steal : 3984 poison damage6 stacks of confusion, 1200 dmg/tick3 ( first part stab ) 250 power, 2100 torment damage, 1200 poison damagevenom proc 600 poison 180 powerUp to this point all of this damage is instant from stealth from 1200 range.Grand total of 8300 damage ( counting with 5 might )After that you use 3, repeater during which you use venom.you apply1200 power damage, 3000 bleed1x poison venom for 600 poison, 180 power4x skale venom for 720 power damage and 3464 torment.this is another 9100 damage, it also applies 4 vulnerability.add in previous damage add in more might then actually exist add in 9 vulnerability and here you have ~18k-20k dmg. Add in confusion.all of it under cover of ( vulnerability, cripple, weakness, confusion )

I'm not sure what those calculations add to the situation given I was already pointing at roughly 20k too, so you kind of missed my point. BUT I thank you for investing time into this.We don't pick the same traits, but regardless the total still goes between 16-22k.Still, here the point: All of that does not happen at 1k range, there is on the contrary a whole positionning game going on, starting right up to your face, to 600 range away, then either back in or moving toward 600-900 range as pistol is max 900 range.And all of that isn't "one button and everything happens"... it's an actual sequence that can be interupted/CC'ed as @KrHome.1920 points out, or evaded, etc. Most of the damage come through channeled skills... that leaves you room to move, espace, dodge, port-in, etc. It's not easy, should not be too hard, especially Mirage to avoid the bulk of it.I too played that cthief a lot both years back and recently, and it's really just that people start pannicking and don't actually take into consideration what's the break down of the damages and where it comes from to avoid/deal with it properly. And of course, I totally get the "suprise" factor and that can be obnoxious to fight, but it's also part of assessing who you're facing and trying to stay on top of it. Again, those cthief builds are quite one dimensional...

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Kuma.1503 said:After playing the build a bit, looking at arcdps logs, and reading up on tips posted here, I'm feeling a bit more confident against cthief.

As it turns out, steal isn't what kills you, it loads you up with tons of condis which makes it easy to panic, but it's not the main thing to worry about. It's the repeater damage + bleeds that kill you. All the other condis they apply are just cover/icing on the cake.

It looks like your best bet vs core thief is to use a block, invuln, evade, LoS ect. after they've stolen onto you to prevent the repeater burst. Still a toughie to deal with if they +1 you but not unbeatable like I initially thought.

If you have the possibility use a reveal skill.Core cteef is dead when he gots reveal and do not have shadowstep available

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trianox.3486 what you missed is the part that you dont burst with stealth skill but with stab from 3 instead, at least when you want to 1shot somebody.so instead of long ambush skill that is easy to dodge you have stab along with steal, instantly from stealth that deals over 8k damage and applies all manner of nastiness like weakness,cripple,vulnerability. and THEN over the course of 1s you get bombared with over 10k dmg still.Mirage can MANAGE fight with thief with cooldowns, but mirage by no way counters cthiefand thats assuming you hit from stealth, nothing stops you from simply 3->steal for almost 10k, spam 8k repeaters, stealth, use plasma, 3->f1 again and then you have quickness for repeater that follows and you get another 20k within 20-30sAnd when you start getting clever you can throw 2 or 4 before casting 3/steal when enemy is distracted for even more damage or CC. Combo lands as the skills reach the target so for the enemy its instant too

[Sifu.9745]

D/D or P/D condi Thief?