Getting too expensive?

Animism.7530 · October 28, 2020

@Hesione.9412 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@robertthebard.8150 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

You are playing a game. Not grocery shopping in real life.

Stop trying to justify spending real-life money amounts for clothes on in-game clothes and/or QOL items.

Ok, as soon as someone points me to where the game requires me to own those outfits? Just like that poster's example of cereal in an aisle at Wal-Mart, I'm not required to buy any of that either. You see, you don't need that stuff, and it just being there, being for sale, isn't predatory.

Remind yourself of the gear progression system in this game, please.

There's gear progression in GW2?

Wow. Arenanet have stated it themselves enough, I have no need to provide you with the many videos detailing this fact.

The commons you get for free, then the uncommons you get for free, then the rares you get for free, then the exotics that drop less frequently but are typically cheap on the TP, the the ascended that people craft, through mats they farm themselves, to legendaries that require effort (but are more for looks/convenience).

That's the gear progression. PvP doesn't even need you to be in common gear, because gear is ignored - apart from what weapons you equip, because that controls 1-5 skills. Everything outside of raids, wvw, and (higher level) fractals can be done in rares.

It really baffles me that so many people are missing the point.

All gear types up to Ascended are a vertical progression system. This is known to be a very short venture in GW2.The horizontal progression system which GW2 has, is precisely the latter of your first paragraph; mostly intertwined with gemstore skins.Please understand the point here of the disparity between items earnt in-game (or) through the gemstore whilst losing more value through conversions to gems; and the value of purchasing gems and items directly from Arenanet.

Animism.7530 · October 28, 2020

@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

Obtena.7952 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

OK ... but none of that is relevant to the fact that the game isn't expensive because of luxury items you don't need to play it.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

OK ... but that's not how it works since ... ever. So it's really not relevant to the discussion.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell and has dire consequences as we see in the present.

It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

OK ... but none of that is relevant to the fact that the game isn't expensive because of luxury items you don't need to play it.

Yes it is.

Items are increasingly bound to gem store sales.The game is a horizontal cosmetic progression system past the initial vertical climb.

Gem prices are directly controlled by Arenanet, with some small sway from player purchases/exchanges.

All of this is entirely relevant to the make-up of this game and its presentation to its wider audience. Something I would argue is an utter failure in regards to what the MMO community by and large seem to clearly want. A game to be played, not bought. Don't confuse this as me suggesting games are free or couldn't have subscription models.

Obtena.7952 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell and has dire consequences as we see in the present.

It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

OK ... but none of that is relevant to the fact that the game isn't expensive because of luxury items you don't need to play it.

Yes it is.

Items are increasingly bound to gem store sales.The game is a horizontal cosmetic progression system past the initial vertical climb.

Gem prices are directly controlled by Arenanet, with some small sway from player purchases/exchanges.

All of this is entirely relevant to the make-up of this game and its presentation to its wider audience. Something I would argue is an utter failure in regards to what the MMO community by and large seem to clearly want.

A game to be played, not bought

. Don't confuse this as me suggesting games are free or couldn't have subscription models.

None of that impacts the idea that the game is expensive or not because of luxury items that you don't need to play it. You have some agenda that hinges on the fact that this is a game that is bought and not played because of horizontal progression ... but that doesn't make sense because none of the items in the GS are things you need to play the game and in addition, you don't even need to use any RL currency to buy GS items if you choose that path.

If someone doesn't have time or RL money and the cost of the unnecessary items in the GS cause so much stress on someone's financial situation for them to conclude it's 'expensive' ... then they probably need to re-evaluate how they use their time and money IRL.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell and has dire consequences as we see in the present.

It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

OK ... but none of that is relevant to the fact that the game isn't expensive because of luxury items you don't need to play it.

Yes it is.

Items are increasingly bound to gem store sales.The game is a horizontal cosmetic progression system past the initial vertical climb.

Gem prices are directly controlled by Arenanet, with some small sway from player purchases/exchanges.

All of this is entirely relevant to the make-up of this game and its presentation to its wider audience. Something I would argue is an utter failure in regards to what the MMO community by and large seem to clearly want.

A game to be played, not bought

. Don't confuse this as me suggesting games are free or couldn't have subscription models.

None of that impacts the idea that the game is expensive or not because of luxury items that you don't need to play it. You have some agenda that hinges on the fact that this is a game that is bought and not played ... but that doesn't make sense because none of the items in the GS are things you need to play the game and in addition, you don't even need to use any RL currency to buy GS items if you choose that path.

If someone doesn't have time or RL money and the cost of the unnecessary items in the GS cause so much stress on someone's financial situation for them to conclude it's 'expensive' ... then they probably need to re-evaluate how they use their time and money IRL.

Items that you don't need to play it, but are practically the entire point of playing it. This is not an appropriate argument...The most viable way to play this game is to not play it. It is to pay for everything with your debit/credit card by Arenanet's design.

Linken.6345 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

Thanks for letting me know of your ventures! It doesn't detract from the point.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game. Tries game. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"... A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face.

Obtena.7952 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell and has dire consequences as we see in the present.

It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

OK ... but none of that is relevant to the fact that the game isn't expensive because of luxury items you don't need to play it.

Yes it is.

Items are increasingly bound to gem store sales.The game is a horizontal cosmetic progression system past the initial vertical climb.

Gem prices are directly controlled by Arenanet, with some small sway from player purchases/exchanges.

All of this is entirely relevant to the make-up of this game and its presentation to its wider audience. Something I would argue is an utter failure in regards to what the MMO community by and large seem to clearly want.

A game to be played, not bought

. Don't confuse this as me suggesting games are free or couldn't have subscription models.

None of that impacts the idea that the game is expensive or not because of luxury items that you don't need to play it. You have some agenda that hinges on the fact that this is a game that is bought and not played ... but that doesn't make sense because none of the items in the GS are things you need to play the game and in addition, you don't even need to use any RL currency to buy GS items if you choose that path.

If someone doesn't have time or RL money and the cost of the unnecessary items in the GS cause so much stress on someone's financial situation for them to conclude it's 'expensive' ... then they probably need to re-evaluate how they use their time and money IRL.

Items that you don't need to play it, but are practically the entire point of playing it.

That doesn't make sense. Most of the horizontal progression you make in this game isn't even linked to the GS ...

I mean, you're literally going to argue the game is expensive because some fraction of the horizontal progression is purchasable with RL money the GS? That's pretty audacious line of thought considering you can literally pay zero dollars to play this game and get LOTS of horizontal progression doing so.

Obtena.7952 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game

.

Tries game

. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"...

A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face

.

What does that have to do with the game being expensive? Nothing ... especially considering players can grin back by exchanging gold for gems and not give Anet a dime. I really don't see the problem here. You think it's unreasonable that Anet gives players options for obtaining GS items? Is that it? It's not at all clear what your complaint is an how it's related to the OP. I mean, in the end, how is this any different than buy a good or service from anywhere else? I walk into a store, I see something I want, I make a decision to buy it or not, depending on 'things'. Somehow, this process is egregious to you when its a GS in GW2? I don't think you are looking at this with the objective sight you need to be.

Tukaram.8256 · October 29, 2020

It is up to you. I would never pay for any skins, mounts weapons armor... forget it. I have only the slots they gave me (some upgrades came with slots). I have maybe 8? I have not used them all and probably never will. Of my 7 avatars there are 3 I play regularly, 3 I could delete and never notice, but 1 is certainly the main.

If you want all that other crap, you can certainly buy it - but the game is definitely playable without it. There is a big difference between needs and wants. It is up to you.

The only thing on your list that might be a real problem is the computer specs. I have not seen the required specs for the expansion, so I do not know if it is applicable yet.

Linken.6345 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

Thanks for letting me know of your ventures! It doesn't detract from the point.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game

.

Tries game

. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"...

A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face

.

It dont just detract from your point, crushes it completely.Since I dont have to use cash to get the gemstore things if I wanted it.Not that those gemstore skins/mostly outfits now are horizontal progression either that's what the mastery system is.

Ashen.2907 · October 29, 2020

@Mortifera.6138 said:First of all, you need to pay sub money on mount skins,

No you do not.

because the original ones are ugly.

You are entitled to you opinion of course.

character slots are just too expensive, costing $10 per slot.

Or they cost $0 per slot. Your choice.

You realize there are people who want to play every race and sex combination?

Sure there are. Their choice to do so.

And with the expansion coming out, we'll need to upgrade our PC hardware.

Over time one who chooses to play games that release in the future will need to upgrade their machines. Yes.

miraude.2107 · October 29, 2020

@Mortifera.6138 said:First of all, you need to pay sub money on mount skins, because the original ones are ugly. After that, the character slots are just too expensive, costing $10 per slot. You realize there are people who want to play every race and sex combination? That's a lot of $10 bills. And with the expansion coming out, we'll need to upgrade our PC hardware. I think Guild Wars 2 is too expensive for me... which is a shame, because this is the best online game.

Sub money? $15 bucks to support the game, servers, employees, etc seems pretty okay?$10 here. $15 on ESO. Are you too used to WoW's 50 character limit that, because of how they run their business, allows that amount? And why do you need every race/gender combo? The story doesn't change at all between a sylvan male or a sylvan female. And you can replay pretty much most of it so you can just spend almost half that using a character kit.And sauce on the PC hardware. Because googling, I can't seem to find these new hardware requirements. I mean, the only thing I can find is the trailer that so far has been the only thing announced about the new expac.

I understand that cosmetics situation. Not everyone has the extra money to toss at a game. This though? Complaining without adding solutions/ideas to possibly remedy the complaint? Just this 'wah' and then the little snide guilt trip of shame, because this is the best online game at the end...honestly just reads as a troll post. And looking at your past comments. Please take a step away from the game and take a breather. Try Rift, Genshin Impact, Skyforge, Warframe, Destiny 2, Phantasy Star Online 2, Runescape, etc. There are plenty of free MMOs out there and some let you jump right into things like PvP etc.

Edit: And I like GW2 because there is no sub fee. I do not want this game to become like ESO where the 'optional' sub is forced down your throat when they shove all the QoL upgrades into it that should be in the base game. I do not want this game to become like WoW where I feel obligated that I have to play because I'm spending money on it. I understand the cash shop and glad they have a system similar to what PoE is, that it is cosmetics in the shop and not gear.

Sobx.1758 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Yes, I keep asking you to explain and keep responding exactly to what you keep writing point after point and quote after quote because I'm arguing in the bad faith, that makes total sense.Or maybe after you claim I'm "missing the point", you'll go ahead and explain the actual point that I'm supposedly missing? Instead of doing that, you just keep dropping more and more points in every next post. Is this because you know you're wrong about something, have nothing to say about it or are my direct responses to what you said suddenly irrelevant? Am I dropping anything you said or trying to completely reiterate what you said in your posts or what exactly are you talking about right now?

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.

That changes nothing about what I said.And "the general public" didn't have the templates in the first place, suddenly it's somehow unplayable without paying for them instead of being simply a QoL. That's just wrong.

"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.

You never truly responded to anything -initially you've tried to deny a whole point simply because suggesting taking an advantage of the sale is somehow "ridiculous", now... it still just seems you simply have nothing to respond to that and you don't want to admit it. It really seems that you're ready to disregard anything that's being said that collides with your pretty much baseless beliefs -tyou did that in your previous post and you're doing it now again.

Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Going from "best" to "good" farms is easly a diminishing return that doesn't even diminish that much and lets you farm whenever you want for how long you want. I thought your complaint was about farms being time-gated, now it appears you just want to log in, complete 5 dailies and buyout the gemstore.

You accidentally missed points 4-6 and I don't see you showing me what I've apparently misunderstood, so maybe it was included in those points you've dropped? I'll gladly see what I was wrong about due to my misunderstanding or w/e. (absolutely no irony here: if you say I misunderstood something, I fully expect you to tell me what it was)

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.

Yes, we're talking mostly about cosmetic items and this is not anything that you need to play the game. These are skins, nothing more. I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

This is irrelevant, we're talking about gw2, not "other games with power creep that you could buy". The whole point here is that you don't buy power creep. Are you serious with this """"comparison"""" right now?It's not that "they're not exactly the same thing", it's that they're COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and your example in this case makes no sense. I'm baffled you somehow can see that.

Sobx.1758 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

Thanks for letting me know of your ventures! It doesn't detract from the point.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game

.

Tries game

. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"...

A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face

.

If you want to pay instead of play then it's nobody's problem, but yours. It doesn't change the fact that cosmetics aren't needed and as such they can't "make the game too expensive to play".

Hesione.9412 · October 29, 2020

@Animism.7530 said:
@Hesione.9412 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@robertthebard.8150 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

You are playing a game. Not grocery shopping in real life.

Stop trying to justify spending real-life money amounts for clothes on in-game clothes and/or QOL items.

Ok, as soon as someone points me to where the game requires me to own those outfits? Just like that poster's example of cereal in an aisle at Wal-Mart, I'm not required to buy any of that either. You see, you don't need that stuff, and it just being there, being for sale, isn't predatory.

Remind yourself of the gear progression system in this game, please.

There's gear progression in GW2?

Wow. Arenanet have stated it themselves enough, I have no need to provide you with the many videos detailing this fact.

The commons you get for free, then the uncommons you get for free, then the rares you get for free, then the exotics that drop less frequently but are typically cheap on the TP, the the ascended that people craft, through mats they farm themselves, to legendaries that require effort (but are more for looks/convenience).

That's the gear progression. PvP doesn't even need you to be in common gear, because gear is ignored - apart from what weapons you equip, because that controls 1-5 skills. Everything outside of raids, wvw, and (higher level) fractals can be done in rares.

It really baffles me that so many people are missing the point.

All gear types up to Ascended are a vertical progression system. This is known to be a very short venture in GW2.The horizontal progression system which GW2 has, is precisely the latter of your first paragraph; mostly intertwined with gemstore skins.Please understand the point here of the disparity between items earnt in-game (or) through the gemstore whilst losing more value through conversions to gems; and the value of purchasing gems and items directly from Arenanet.

Gemstore skins are horizontal progression?

I see you ignored my second paragraph which pointed out that the higher end gear is optional for people in general PvE. The story throws gear at you, as does leveling your character. Additionally, ascended trinkets, if one wishes those, are bought with magic and map currency. Or laurels. Or guild commendations. Or WvW tokens. Or PVP tokens.

What is your actual point?

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game

.

Tries game

. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"...

A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face

.

What does that have to do with the game being expensive? Nothing ... especially considering players can grin back by exchanging gold for gems and not give Anet a dime. I really don't see the problem here. You think it's unreasonable that Anet gives players options for obtaining GS items? Is that it? It's not at all clear what your complaint is an how it's related to the OP. I mean, in the end, how is this any different than buy a good or service from anywhere else? I walk into a store, I see something I want, I make a decision to buy it or not, depending on 'things'. Somehow, this process is egregious to you when its a GS in GW2? I don't think you are looking at this with the objective sight you need to be.

It has everything to do with the game being expensive if you would actually think about the point for more than 2 seconds.

The majority of games can be played by obtaining goods for in-game time; that's as one might say; the entire point of playing the game.Undercutting these methods by giving a debit card option is ridiculous, and crazy to defend as if moral.

In relation to your analogy -Guild Wars 2 is like paying to go to the movies; only finding out afterwards that you paid only to watch the adverts.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Tukaram.8256 said:It is up to you. I would never pay for any skins, mounts weapons armor... forget it. I have only the slots they gave me (some upgrades came with slots). I have maybe 8? I have not used them all and probably never will. Of my 7 avatars there are 3 I play regularly, 3 I could delete and never notice, but 1 is certainly the main.
If you want all that other kitten, you can certainly buy it - but the game is definitely playable without it. There is a big difference between needs and wants. It is up to you.
The only thing on your list that might be a real problem is the computer specs. I have not seen the required specs for the expansion, so I do not know if it is applicable yet.

Ok, if you are going to write that the 'only' real problem' MIGHT be computer specs; we can stop this line of enquiry here.

Guild Wars 2 is infamous for having some of the worst optimisation and frame rates.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Hesione.9412 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Hesione.9412 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@robertthebard.8150 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

You are playing a game. Not grocery shopping in real life.

Stop trying to justify spending real-life money amounts for clothes on in-game clothes and/or QOL items.

Ok, as soon as someone points me to where the game requires me to own those outfits? Just like that poster's example of cereal in an aisle at Wal-Mart, I'm not required to buy any of that either. You see, you don't need that stuff, and it just being there, being for sale, isn't predatory.

Remind yourself of the gear progression system in this game, please.

There's gear progression in GW2?

Wow. Arenanet have stated it themselves enough, I have no need to provide you with the many videos detailing this fact.

The commons you get for free, then the uncommons you get for free, then the rares you get for free, then the exotics that drop less frequently but are typically cheap on the TP, the the ascended that people craft, through mats they farm themselves, to legendaries that require effort (but are more for looks/convenience).

That's the gear progression. PvP doesn't even need you to be in common gear, because gear is ignored - apart from what weapons you equip, because that controls 1-5 skills. Everything outside of raids, wvw, and (higher level) fractals can be done in rares.

It really baffles me that so many people are missing the point.

All gear types up to Ascended are a vertical progression system. This is known to be a very short venture in GW2.The horizontal progression system which GW2 has, is precisely the latter of your first paragraph; mostly intertwined with gemstore skins.Please understand the point here of the disparity between items earnt in-game (or) through the gemstore whilst losing more value through conversions to gems; and the value of purchasing gems and items directly from Arenanet.

Gemstore skins are horizontal progression?

I see you ignored my second paragraph which pointed out that the higher end gear is optional for people in general PvE. The story throws gear at you, as does leveling your character. Additionally, ascended trinkets, if one wishes those, are bought with magic and map currency. Or laurels. Or guild commendations. Or WvW tokens. Or PVP tokens.

What is your actual point?

Yes. They are horizontal progression in a game that is built around cosmetics.I ignored it because it is trivial. The functionality of legendary armour is just that - entirely not needed or even involved in either a power creep or cosmetic outfits.I understand there are a few items that can be farmed in game - it is very clear there is a massive disparity between general items earnt in game and through the gemstore.I do not need to validate this as it is entirely self-evident with the range of items and cosmetics placed on there.

I literally just explained it to you, and for some reason you proceed to then explain the brief vertical progression system that I have already mentioned.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Linken.6345 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.
"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.
Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.

Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

Yes I do.

How about Casino gambling and loot boxes?

Sorry - but anyone saying they are happy for their game to be played for them if they just pay a little more money in real-life, is raising serious ethical red flags to me.

I fail to see how this post got anything to do with the post were cosmetics are fine being sold in the gemstore.I dont need any of those cosmetics to play the game and if I would need it I could use some of my 7k gold earned in game to get them.

Thanks for letting me know of your ventures! It doesn't detract from the point.

The horizontal gear progression grind, for cosmetics; can be practically and perennially bypassed by microtransactions.

Buys game

.

Tries game

. "Ooh, that looks cool." .. "Oh no... that's way too much time"... "Ooo I can purchase it with money"...

A wild grin appears on Arenanet's accountant's face

.

If you want to pay instead of play then it's nobody's problem, but yours. It doesn't change the fact that cosmetics aren't needed and as such they can't "make the game too expensive to play".

Right... Everybody else's problem except Arenanet, you know.. the people who design and supply the game.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Animism.7530 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Lutharr.1035" said:i think people are purposefully ignoing what was written to just fanboy defend Anet.
When they saying paying sub money they clearly mean that in other MMO's you can get a months subscription for the price of 1 single mount skin. I wont argue if the price is fair or not tbh. But it does seem folks want to ignore the fact that the gem store is a bit predatory when it comes to items sold for convience. Oh and saying other predatory games are more predatory doesn't mean it's right to be so.

Yes, as much as you're ignoring the fact op says things like "you have to buy mount skins because base ones look worse" or character slots are too expensive because "I want every race/sex/class combination". Nothing about those cosmetic items is even close to being "must have".

How about builds for a single character, and multiple armour sets?

But, what are you trying to do here, list anything that's available for purchase? Is this anything you need to play and enjoy the game? I think it's not worth the price

so I didn't buy any and I'm doing perfectly fine

. What is the point you're trying to make here? Somehow you can't play the game without additional build templates, while I easly can? I don't get it.

How about bag slots for a main character that you farm with. You think people aren't going to expect being able to reasonably get those extra easy 20 slots in game, most often near the start of playing GW2? Nope. The best gold farms are time-gated, and the most repetitive ones are trash farming. But ohhhhh... only £8.50 for 40 slots.. I guess we should whip out our wallet...

To be honest, I don't exactly remember the pricing or what they were included with. I most probably bought some on sales and I didn't exactly feel the cost you're complaining about here, but I'm not sure how many I've had included with expansions and whatnot, so I can't respond with 100% certainty.What I know on the other hand is that there are 1-2 sales each year that discount the price of bag slots to 240-280 gems each. (meaning 40% and 30% discounts respectively). That's 3 bag slots for less than 10 €

OR ~80-90 gold per inventory bag slot, which isn't exactly an unbelievably high amount of ingame currency to farm

. Is this fair? That's subjective. But I sure don't have a problem with farming up 80-90 gold for that IF I ever need any more slots. And that's without "whipping out our wallet...", but by playing the game without constant gear treadmil, which is what you'd be perpetually farming for in other games instead.

Pretty sure saying that most good gold farms are time-gated is for the most part just... wrong.

I keep in mind that

this is still a better point than what OP said

, but I don't think that's remotely close to being "predatory" when you can EASLY(!!!) get that for ingame currency, especially when you start thinking about actually farming gold.

Let me sum this up for you easily and succinctly.

Ah yes, thank you for thinking about my tiny brain's limited capacity.

Take a look at the period when Legendary armour was released. How many top-tier shiny, well-designed outfits were there on the gemstore?....... How about now? Arenanet are quite literally throwing every game element at our faces for a price. If people can't see that this is disgustingly predatory with these points in mind, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

Ok. I'm looking at the period when legendary armor was released and see all the "shiny well-designed" (as in "badly designed" doesn't happen there, right?)

fully cosmetic, absolutely unneeded, glittery glowy sexy outfits from the gemstore

and all I can do is ask: how is this relevant to your point?You're literally responding to the post where I wrote (and I'm not the only one saying that btw) OP is mostly complaining about skins that DON'T DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE GAMEPLAY, but instead are PURLY COSMETIC ITEMS and... OUTFITS IN GEMSTORE is what your "easy and succinctly summary" is primarily based on? I'm confused.

Ah and not sure why you compare legendary armors to simply over-textured outfits when legendary armors are in the category of their own in the department of utility and that's attainable through gameplay. I'm one of those people that run legendary armor for its utility/flexibility and I "skinned over it" by using an outfit that I've opened from the BL Chest using

free keys

I run for weekly. Maybe I'm some greatly unique example (doubt) in this case, but seriously it seems you're saying this to the wrong person. If you're interested in playing the game then play the game and there's more than you think you can get without spending actual money.

I would have rather paid a monthly subscription than be bombarded with skins and have an economy managed directly by Arenanet through gemstore sales.

That's cool, you're allowed to have that opinion. But I disagree. And out of curiosity: why do you actually care so much about new skins added to the gemstore (some of which I also bought through gold>gem conversion, but not a lot, because I don't feel the need to "catch them all")? How exactly does this UNNEEDED addition to the game change your enjoyment of playing an mmorpg?Even moreso when you'd rather pay monthly subscription...? Then pay it through gemstore, I guess?

It didn't solve real-world trading as far as I can tell
and has dire consequences as we see in the present.
It is unequivocally the most loathsome part of GW2.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

I don't see what "dire consequences" you're talking about here. I also don't see in what way some gemstore, fully optional skins with absolutely no power can be "the most loathsome part" of the game, but to each their own.And finally, I don't see how what you wrote after "let me sum up..." is summing up the first part of your post at all. Pretty sure it doesn't.

Edit:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:So now anything offered for sale is "predatory?" Like when I walked down the cereal aisle at Walmart yesterday, all those shiny boxes begging me to buy them? That was WM being predatory, too?
Anyway. New players don't immediately need added bag slots. If they do their dailies, and don't waste their gold, they can easily get 18-slot bags, which will suffice until they can buy a slot. And those shiny suits? Not needed, like at all.
And here's a PSA: Do the weekly key farm. Get free stuff.

^see, this guy gets it.

That is a lengthy response and it's pretty clear that not only do you personally disagree with some points; you also misunderstand and misread some.

There are multiple builds for each profession. It should be assumed that people are going to want to play and save more than a few builds. This obviously becomes an issue with multiple characters and limited space to hold builds.
Trying to justify the accessibility by suggesting a sale that only occurs twice a year is pretty ridiculous. Your argument also perfectly outlines the problem of the gem store and aggressive design of the game equally encouraging you to make a purchase with your wallet.
I didn't say good farms, I said the best. This is of course referring to Fractal dailies.
See previous comment to other participant in conversation.
The price point of legendary armour and the functionality is jarring. It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin. Point being, different variants of legendary armours are not being created; and most certainly not to the degree of the flashy gemstore skins. See point 4.
For all your comments after, see point 4...

Yup, that was a longer response than I was planning to go for, but it's simply because I've wanted to accurately answer to what you wrote, with examples if possible. Of course it's based on personal experience, why would I (or you) discredit it? (yes, this is a real question -if you wouldn't, then I don't understand what's wrong about that approach and why is this worth pointing out in the first place)

1.

Yes there are. Yes, I'm using multiple builds per class on multiple classes. No, I still didn't get additional build templates, because it's not needed, I know my traits and builds and if somehow I hadn't, I'd re-read the traits (which at that point I'd need to do anyways to use the build effectively). I don't see the issue. It IS a QoL purchase, but it is NOT needed. Not sure there's anything you can say to convince me otherwise seeing as I'm literally speaking from my own experience.

2.

Why is it ridiculous? I did it this way, why would anyone else not be able to do the same?(without a sale it's 130 gold > 400 gems, still attainable through regular ingame farming, but if we know these "items" go on sale then why not just wait for them?)It only "encourages you to make a purchase with your wallet" if you're not interested in getting it through gameplay and represent the "I NEED EVERYTHING

RIGHT NOW

" attitude. That's a "you" problem in my book, so I definitely disagree and you didn't really say anything to challenge what I've said about these items being attainable through ingame currency.

3.

Cool. What's the difference between "good" and "best"? Which are which? Why are you only able to use "best" but not just "good" (even if only after the timegated ones)? How does it change what I said at all?Fractal dailies are easy gold source, but that's not a "gold farming" content (as in you finish that rather fast, nothing about that is even close to regular mmo grinding/farming). And what are you complaining about here? That you get too much gold daily so you either need to farm something less optimal OR wait 3 days to buy what you want? How is this a valid complaint again?

4.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

5.

"It's generally intended as a top-tier cosmetic skin" -No, it's not, it has its own utility and as I said above I have a pretty solid proof for that in form of... myself.As for the other complaint: remind yourself how much legendary armor set costs. Then take that gold, convert to gems and buy any outfit you want. What was the argument here again?

6.

What? Maybe just answer to what I said instead, because I don't know what you're referring to.

You are clearly missing the point to a degree that it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it, with no attempt of analysing what I'm proposing (or to you as you seem to misunderstand,

may

be proposing). But I will continue as if it is intended in good faith.

Yes, I keep asking you to explain and keep responding exactly to what you keep writing point after point and quote after quote because I'm arguing in the bad faith, that makes total sense.Or maybe after you claim I'm "missing the point", you'll go ahead and explain the actual point that I'm supposedly missing? Instead of doing that, you just keep dropping more and more points in every next post. Is this because you know you're wrong about something, have nothing to say about it or are my direct responses to what you said suddenly irrelevant? Am I dropping anything you said or trying to completely reiterate what you said in your posts or what exactly are you talking about right now?

Congratulations on knowing your traits for all builds; you're likely a minority in that regard. Keep that in mind as to the viability of the game to the general public.

That changes nothing about what I said.And "the general public" didn't have the templates in the first place, suddenly it's somehow unplayable without paying for them instead of being simply a QoL. That's just wrong.

"I did it, why can't others". I'm not going to give this more of a response as it is pretty obvious that it relates directly to accessibility/playing periodically.

You never truly responded to anything -initially you've tried to deny a whole point simply because suggesting taking an advantage of the sale is somehow "ridiculous", now... it still just seems you simply have nothing to respond to that and you don't want to admit it. It really seems that you're ready to disregard anything that's being said that collides with your pretty much baseless beliefs -tyou did that in your previous post and you're doing it now again.

Because analysing the viability of farming for an item over time is generally done first and foremost from the best sources, (ie, real life money vs time spent in game farming). Diminishing returns is acceptable, stylised design to inherently encourage micro-transactions for the majority of farmed-for prestigious items is not.

Going from "best" to "good" farms is easly a diminishing return that doesn't even diminish that much and lets you farm whenever you want for how long you want. I thought your complaint was about farms being time-gated, now it appears you just want to log in, complete 5 dailies and buyout the gemstore.

You accidentally missed points 4-6 and I don't see you showing me what I've apparently misunderstood, so maybe it was included in those points you've dropped? I'll gladly see what I was wrong about due to my misunderstanding or w/e. (absolutely no irony here: if you say I misunderstood something, I fully expect you to tell me what it was)

Let me just stop my comment right here and reiterate that Guild Wars 2 has a horizontal progression system, focused on grinding for cosmetic items.

Yes, we're talking mostly about cosmetic items and this is not anything that you need to play the game. These are skins, nothing more. I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

Let us suppose for a second we are in a game with a 'power creep', 'vertical' progression system, would you find it acceptable to be able to pay for microtransactions to progress this? I understand power and cosmetics are not exactly the same thing, but the principle is there loud and clear.Case study: Runescape 3. Check out what people think of microtransactions in relation to this principle. Do you really think this system of cosmetics simply validates this?

This is irrelevant, we're talking about gw2, not "other games with power creep that you could buy". The whole point here is that you don't buy power creep. Are you serious with this """"comparison"""" right now?It's not that "they're not exactly the same thing", it's that they're COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and your example in this case makes no sense. I'm baffled you somehow can see that.

You're acting as if many of these original elements of Guild Wars 2 met with critical acclaim..I also directly answered some of your questions and you still seem unable to discern what I meant - so I'll leave that for the scrutiny of the reader.You misunderstand diminishing returns.

For the rest of your reply.... Yeah... you didn't even try to comprehend the relationship between pay-to-win models, which it is in essence.

I'll leave it to the scrutiny of the reader as I'm quite content with what I wrote - while your argument at the end is quite literally that you believe a simple difference in progression systems (vertical->horizontal) justifies the usage of pay-to-win design models.

Animism.7530 · October 29, 2020

X. Accidental double reply.

kharmin.7683 · October 29, 2020

@"Animism.7530" said:
Yes. They are horizontal progression in a game that is built around cosmetics.I think that you are hijacking the term "progression". There are absolutely no cosmetics that are required to play the game or progress the character through the story or to achieve level 80 and participate in the end game content.

Rukia.4802 · October 29, 2020

@Dawdler.8521 said:PvEers regularly claim they farm 40+ gold an hour. With that you can afford 1 new mount skin like... every other day.

30-40g an hour is not hard but you will uninstall from boredom, would you rather have fun or grind endlessly

It is halloween however with easiest farm in game

Getting too expensive?

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