The Icebrood Saga: Champions Chapter 1 Trailer

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:ANet

(specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time)

had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking,

ALL

Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it".

As I have stated before, Konig, I believe that you have an over-reliance on out-of-game sources to help you comprehend in-game "facts".See:

Word of God

.

And for the matter, you have an over-reliance on ignoring

established facts

and denying the very writers' statements to avoid debunking your reaching fanon.

This is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean that the wiki's use of the term "it", when referring to Elder Dragons, is

still

accurate.If it isn't, it's because the Elder Dragon associates with a pronoun, not because they have identifiable genitals.

However, Aurene has penetrated aspects of the Elder Dragons' inner circle, revealing that, indeed, the Elder Dragons

might

have reproductive organs.There is no such revelation from Aurene becoming an Elder Dragon, and we've known since 2005 that a dragon can have children, so the fact that there are family ties does not change this.

This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons -

by all indication so far reproduced

in a non-standard asexual method -

without need of partners

.We don't know that. We do not have enough information to make such definitive statements. Until we learn more about the reproductive methods of Elder Dragons we simply cannot rule out the possibility that they are sexually dimorphic.The very lack of evidence, despite going over the topic of dragon family over the past two years, is pretty strong evidence of lacking in this case.

Thank you for pointing this out. Did it ever occur to you, Konig, that the nature of Elder Dragon reproduction, including the biological gender of each Elder, might've been something that the dragons didn't want mortals to know about? Perhaps for fear that mortals would use the knowledge of these things against the Elders?Why would the Elder Dragons, who view mortals as nothing greater than ants worth ignoring, or food, care what the mortals do or do not know about how they have children?You give the Elder Dragons too much credit, because it's been firmly established that the Elder Dragons are

uncaring

for mortals, mortal views, and mortal desires. Besides which, if "Elder Dragons can have children" is a fatal flaw to all Elder Dragons, then Glint, the Forgotten, and/or the Exalted would have spread that knowledge by now.

@Plagiarised.2865 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?Not without denouncing the entire purpose of Season 3, Path of Fire, and Season 4. Where it is

repeatedly

stated that the issue isn't the balance of magic. It's the balance of The All. That four Elder Dragons are needed

despite

the remaining three Elder Dragons consuming even more magic - and that the act of an Elder Dragon consuming too much magic, in fact, unbalances The All.

If the matter was simply "too much magic", then Balthazar killing Primordus of Kralkatorrik and absorbing either of their magic would be no issue.If the matter was simply "too much magic", then killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists, even with Aurene there to absorb his magic, to reduce some magic from the system, would be no issue.

But both were world ending scenarios if they occurred.

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

Ergo, while "too much magic" is an issue, it isn't

the

issue.

The

issue is the "Elder Dragon [im]balance."

@Psientist.6437 said:I would prefer Aurene being the One over resolving everything with dragon sex.Wouldn't really need that since all evidence suggests they reproduce asexually.

Plus, we have two fairly likely replacements (Pale Tree and Kuunavang). And if Jormag goes redemption arc, that would give us the mandatory minimum four living Elder Dragons.

Just to add Konig, I’m pretty sure the next sentence with Sadizi stated the following:

“Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.“

[Fenom.9457]

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:i still hope it all comes down to a story with primordus as the apocalypse of fire and pure destruction, and than have Bubbles wash in with a tidalwave of horror and chtulhu madness with us all in the middle.

Pure destruction from one side and pure madness from the other. having an earthquake and a hurricane at the same time

Imagine a future expansion (or living world after cantha or whatever) where the two get into a full on war and you have boiling seas, volcanos flooded and cooled, stuff like that with the mixing of these two opposites

[Fenom.9457]

I’m starting to wonder now if the plot will end with one of the dragons dying (which one depends on who gets more time in these last episodes), and we’re suddenly in a place where we need another dragon Scion now because the world is crumbling and our only good lead are centuries old stories of the dragon Kuunavang. Or maybe we’ll get that plot and Primordus does something over in cantha. Obviously anet can generate new stories and characters whenever they want, but from what we know now Kuunavang is probably the only suitable potential elder dragon replacement

[Zola.6197]

@Fenom.9457 said:I’m starting to wonder now if the plot will end with one of the dragons dying (which one depends on who gets more time in these last episodes), and we’re suddenly in a place where we need another dragon Scion now because the world is crumbling and our only good lead are centuries old stories of the dragon Kuunavang. Or maybe we’ll get that plot and Primordus does something over in cantha. Obviously anet can generate new stories and characters whenever they want, but from what we know now Kuunavang is probably the only suitable potential elder dragon replacement

Any “high dragon” should be a suitable candidate. We’ve yet to establish if saltspray dragons are, I believe, but seeing as how Kuunavang is on par with Glint it’s very likely saltsprays are high dragons.

So ideally she and any other saltspray dragons could work, and we know of at least two more - Shiny and Albax (I think he’s still alive?).

[Plagiarised.2865]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Where it is repeatedly stated that the issue isn't the balance of magic. It's the balance of The All.

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

Ergo, while "too much magic" is an issue, it isn't

the

issue.

The

issue is the "Elder Dragon [im]balance."

Do we know specifically that four are needed? Aurene is "special" and all that. I know you don't like it as lazy writing, but I feel its just as possible. We just don't know enough about The All. Or that The All and the balance of magic are, at least, related. After all, Sadizi says

"Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose."

Or why there are six Elder Dragons specifically. We don't know exactly what caused the void, or the balance of The All. Does the system break down and collapse when there is not enough entities specifically? Or is it about how an entity acts within the system. Why would they keep talking about sharing the magic rather than hoard it? Or making it clear that Aurene is "one that can act as a kind of prism, separating and recombining all the magics in the spectrum."

I'm just saying its possible that Aurene would be it. It is hokey and "she did because she is special!" feeling. But it is possible.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:We had a whole season building up Kralkatorrik to his death, a campaign to build up and kill Zhaitan and a whole living world and expansion to build up and kill Mordremoth and mostly the same for Balthazar too.I would 100% disagree about Kralkatorrik. Season 4 Episode 3 had completely nothing related to Kralkatorrik, and the relation in Episode 2 was minimal - just Inquest experiments. So that would be, at absolute most in argument, basically 4 episodes focused on Kralkatorrik. Personally, I wouldn't include Episode 2 because of how bare bones the branded threat was in that - I'd be more inclined to say 3.5 episodes and 1/4th of an expansion.

Compared to pretty much two full episodes in Season 3, and four episodes in Seaosn 5. Kralkatorrik and Primordus are pretty on par.

And both Kralkatorrik and Primordus are the most animalistic. So less screentime works, especially since unlike Zhaitan, their minions don't speak. There's not much interaction to be had with Primordus and his destroyers - just voiceless killers to fight back and fight through. Not much of an interesting plot, in all honesty.

The interesting part of the plot will come in the allies and getting them to join, not in confronting the destroyers. Much like in Eye of the North. Because there simply will be nothing but "fight back the destroyers, don't let them kill everyone!" over and over and over again.

There will be no destroyer menacingly saying

"So this is the Pact Commander. I am not impressed."

There will only be destroyers saying

"(terrifying otherworldly howl)"

There just simply

cannot be

good build-up for Primordus other than a repeat of what we got in Season 3 and Eye of the North. Unless,

The only Kralkatorrik related things in episode 3 was the branded griffon bounty and a small bit of dialogue from the Hylek.

“Shaman Acopa: There was a strange storm on the horizon not long ago. I wondered if Zintl was trying to tell us something...”

This was obviously when Kralkatorrik branded Jahai.

[Psientist.6437]

Pleas read the following in the spirit of friendly but competitive speculation. I don't intend any of my suggestions as refutations of other suggestions or personal preferences.

So far and with the exemption of Aurene, there is no separation between Elder Dragon motivations and their domains. Zhaitan of Death and Shadow wakes and resurrects the people who where murdered last cycle; and from the shadows, leads them on a campaign to kill the current people. Mordremoth of Plant and Mind wakes and starts turning everything within reach into thinking plants. Kralkatorrik of Crystal and Fury wakes and starts furiously turning everything into crystal. The first look we get into the inner workings of an Elder Dragon's mind is watching Kralkatorrik struggle with Tormented Kralkatorrik. Tormented Kralkatorrik's only personality trait seems to be their fury. Jormag wakes and thinks the obvious, most rational course of action is to persuade mortals to be ice puppets. All of their motivations emerge from their domains and their role in the All which is to stay alive and fulfill their role as vessels for magic. Aurene's domains can't be a coincidence and will come into play. She is set up to be the final solution, a stop-gap solution, or an example of how dangerous an Elder Dragon could be. Aurene may soon be convinced that the world should be reduced to its simplest parts organized into a homogenized whole.

One of the central premises of the story is the symmetry of nature and nurture. Can Aurene nurture children by making them the vessel for fire and conflagration? Does she tell them not to worry because they can strengthen their mind by bonding with mortals and spend eons watching them die? Can the voice that won't stop insisting on fire and burning be quieted for millions of years with such a bond? Aurene's children would likely just repeat the cycle. I think any solution that relies on Elder dragon woo hoo, solitary, paired or group, would do the same.

I think there are three possibilities that could exist separately or be combined.1) Aurene is the One but must sacrifice her mind.2) 6 replacements are found but the Dragon cycle is transformed to the extent that current domains are no longer relevant. The replacements are made vessels for less threatening domains. The replacements are also bonded together, supporting each other rather than competing.3) The All mechanism is changed significantly. Elder beings no longer dominate the All mechanism, high dragons and mortals live side by side on a transformed Tyria. The burden and responsibility for the All mechanism is shared by all Tyrians.

Alone, option one is grim. Tyrian cosmology would be incompatible with personhood. Option one is an inexpensive reliable trope. It may seem clever, even worthwhile, to try and power through or subvert the Kormir effect but the logic needed relies on a grim cosmology.

[Zola.6197]

In the end whatever they do will depend on the journey to reach that conclusion, how well built that narrative is and the character development and world building involved. If they make Aurene a singular pillar of the All, it better be a fantastic journey to get there because the writers will have invalidated very deeply infused plot threads from the last several years.

If another dragon dies, there should be major consequences. If Aurene can hold all magic, there better be some great writing/journeying to make me buy into the bait and switch. It’s not like I’ll quit the game, but foregoing the massive problem (need for multiple dragons to prevent the world from ending) we’ve been trying to balance will be a huge disappointment. It would just feel cheap after all this build up, imo. I don’t think they’ll go that route, but the worry is there.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Plagiarised.2865" said:Do we know specifically that four are needed? Aurene is "special" and all that. I know you don't like it as lazy writing, but I feel its just as possible. We just don't know enough about The All. Or that The All and the balance of magic are, at least, related. After all, Sadizi says

Aurene is able to handle conflicting magic, which would otherwise result in Torment. Sadizi never mentions or hints about Torment.

Sadizi talks about the balance of The All, and according to Taimi's research, a bare minimum of four are needed. And as we saw in Season 3, even though Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic and domains have been taken over by Primordus and Kralkatorrik, their spheres in The All remained dormant and inert.

Aurene could theoretically absorb all the magic in the world and potentially be fine. But all evidence so far tells us that she cannot balance The All alone. And it's be foolish to give it a test run, in all honesty.

"Yeah, I think Aurene can handle absorbing another Elder Dragons' power. She's immortal and magic doesn't conflict in her!" -kills an Elder Dragon- "Oh god the world's crumbling even though Aurene ate all of that dragon's magic and isn't suffering from Torment!"

Not the kind of risk anyone with common sense would take. Canach may make a gamble about the world's fate as a third party, but even he wouldn't perform an act he is aware might cause the world's destruction if it doesn't work out.

"Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose."

Or why there are six Elder Dragons specifically. We don't know exactly what caused the void, or the balance of The All. Does the system break down and collapse when there is not enough entities specifically? Or is it about how an entity acts within the system. Why would they keep talking about sharing the magic rather than hoard it? Or making it clear that Aurene is "one that can act as a kind of prism, separating and recombining all the magics in the spectrum."

I'm just saying its possible that Aurene would be it. It is hokey and "she did because she is special!" feeling. But it is possible.

There are six Elder Dragons - besides writer desires - because there are six Spheres in The All.

As per Season 2: the Spheres are NOT the Elder Dragons themselves, but rather the Elder Dragons are directly tied to these spheres which represent some unstudied cosmic power. Some norn scholars think them to be spirit realms, jotuns called them stars, it's unclear.

We do know what caused the void, btw - the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth is what's being referred to. WE caused that void and caused the system to begin breaking down. So yes, it does break down and collapse when there are not enough entities.

Sadizi's speech is a little weird because he jumps from past to present to past again.

[Bast.7253]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Plagiarised.2865" said:Do we know specifically that four are needed? Aurene is "special" and all that. I know you don't like it as lazy writing, but I feel its just as possible. We just don't know enough about The All. Or that The All and the balance of magic are, at least, related. After all, Sadizi says

Aurene is able to handle conflicting magic, which would otherwise result in Torment. Sadizi never mentions or hints about Torment.

Sadizi talks about the balance of The All, and according to Taimi's research, a bare minimum of four are needed. And as we saw in Season 3, even though Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic and domains have been taken over by Primordus and Kralkatorrik, their spheres in The All remained dormant and inert.

Aurene could theoretically absorb all the magic in the world and potentially be fine. But all evidence so far tells us that she cannot balance The All alone. And it's be foolish to give it a test run, in all honesty.

"Yeah, I think Aurene can handle absorbing another Elder Dragons' power. She's immortal and magic doesn't conflict in her!"

-kills an Elder Dragon-

"Oh god the world's crumbling even though Aurene ate all of that dragon's magic and isn't suffering from Torment!"

Not the kind of risk anyone with common sense would take. Canach may make a gamble about the world's fate as a third party, but even he wouldn't perform an act he is aware might cause the world's destruction if it doesn't work out.

"Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose."

Or why there are six Elder Dragons specifically. We don't know exactly what caused the void, or the balance of The All. Does the system break down and collapse when there is not enough entities specifically? Or is it about how an entity acts within the system. Why would they keep talking about sharing the magic rather than hoard it? Or making it clear that Aurene is "one that can act as a kind of prism, separating and recombining all the magics in the spectrum."

I'm just saying its possible that Aurene would be it. It is hokey and "she did because she is special!" feeling. But it is possible.

There are six Elder Dragons - besides writer desires - because there are six Spheres in The All.

As per Season 2: the Spheres are

NOT

the Elder Dragons themselves, but rather the Elder Dragons are directly tied to these spheres which represent some unstudied cosmic power. Some norn scholars think them to be spirit realms, jotuns called them stars, it's unclear.

We do know what caused the void, btw - the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth is what's being referred to.

WE

caused that void and caused the system to begin breaking down. So yes, it does break down and collapse when there are not enough entities.

Sadizi's speech is a little weird because he jumps from past to present to past again.

I believe in the Dragonfall release guild chat they hinted at Aurene's ability to handle conflicting magic potentially being temporary anyway. So, even if she does hold all of the magic, ignoring The All, I'd have to think based on that hint that the original plan (if it hasn't changed by now to quickly brush through the elder dragon plot) that Aurene was never meant to be the be all and end all of our dragon problem.

Personally, while this would probably be difficult to pull off eloquently when the typical releases seemingly 2 episodes of mild build up with everything culminating in an explosive third, I could see them branching into the torment affecting her in subtle ways sooner than we might expect. Of course there wouldn't be time to fit that much character development in a 30 minute story chapter, but given Jormag's last dialogue in the Bangar achievement about Aurene not getting involved with Jormag and Primordus, insisting that Jormag just kill Primordus theirself, it makes me wonder if we aren't starting to see some of that torment/greed seeping in. I mean, it's possible that she just didn't want to interfere and has undoubtedly changed since ascension, but it seems like a bit of a shift of perspective.

In all likelihood, the effects of losing another dragon and tipping the balance further will have been drastically overstated and while Tyria may face some devastating effects in the short term it may be more gradual than immediate destruction. Giving them time to show the effects during the playthrough and following season of Cantha.

[Plagiarised.2865]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Plagiarised.2865" said:Do we know specifically that four are needed? Aurene is "special" and all that. I know you don't like it as lazy writing, but I feel its just as possible. We just don't know enough about The All. Or that The All and the balance of magic are, at least, related. After all, Sadizi says

Aurene is able to handle conflicting magic, which would otherwise result in Torment. Sadizi never mentions or hints about Torment.

Sadizi talks about the balance of The All, and according to Taimi's research, a bare minimum of four are needed. And as we saw in Season 3, even though Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic and domains have been taken over by Primordus and Kralkatorrik, their spheres in The All remained dormant and inert.

Aurene could theoretically absorb all the magic in the world and potentially be fine. But all evidence so far tells us that she cannot balance The All alone. And it's be foolish to give it a test run, in all honesty.

"Yeah, I think Aurene can handle absorbing another Elder Dragons' power. She's immortal and magic doesn't conflict in her!"

-kills an Elder Dragon-

"Oh god the world's crumbling even though Aurene ate all of that dragon's magic and isn't suffering from Torment!"

Not the kind of risk anyone with common sense would take. Canach may make a gamble about the world's fate as a third party, but even he wouldn't perform an act he is aware might cause the world's destruction if it doesn't work out.

"Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose."

Or why there are six Elder Dragons specifically. We don't know exactly what caused the void, or the balance of The All. Does the system break down and collapse when there is not enough entities specifically? Or is it about how an entity acts within the system. Why would they keep talking about sharing the magic rather than hoard it? Or making it clear that Aurene is "one that can act as a kind of prism, separating and recombining all the magics in the spectrum."

I'm just saying its possible that Aurene would be it. It is hokey and "she did because she is special!" feeling. But it is possible.

There are six Elder Dragons - besides writer desires - because there are six Spheres in The All.

As per Season 2: the Spheres are

NOT

the Elder Dragons themselves, but rather the Elder Dragons are directly tied to these spheres which represent some unstudied cosmic power. Some norn scholars think them to be spirit realms, jotuns called them stars, it's unclear.

We do know what caused the void, btw - the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth is what's being referred to.

WE

caused that void and caused the system to begin breaking down. So yes, it does break down and collapse when there are not enough entities.

Sadizi's speech is a little weird because he jumps from past to present to past again.

All fair points. Thank you for the explanation.

[firedragon.8953]

I posted this on reddit, but I have a little pet theory regarding elder dragons.

Elder dragons were purposefully corrupted by someone or something yet unknown (or maybe even the gods themselves in a failed experiment). Each dragon has a non-elemental trait, death, mind, fury, persuasion; with Primordus and the sea dragon somewhat different (or maybe not known, but on the other hand controlling elements that arguably cover or fill most of Tyria) unless "conflagration" is just another way to say "destruction" but with fire. Or maybe the last two dragons are more "pure" and not actually corrupted and imbued with sentient traits and just embody the natural characteristics of their element. Anyway, by imbuing these traits into the dragons they became mad. Just like us imbuing compassion into Aurean has insured her "goodness". The weakness of the elder dragons (or dragons in general probably) is that likely that they can be "programmed" in a sense. Maybe the Canthans know a little something about this. Would make sense since it was successfully attempted on Glint, semi-successfully on Vlast, and unsuccessfully on Kralk in Tyria.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

The nature of corruption makes talking about "biological function" inherently flawed.

You'll need to explain yourself a bit more there. I see no reason why biological paradigms are incompatible with the lore of Guild Wars.

Because corruption involves magical anatomy and physiology. You are applying biological paradigms to something that isn't biological. Even Plant, the one closest to actual life, fails to meet our criteria.

Kralkatorrik and Jormag were twins at birth. Whether that is still physically true after they became elder dragons, and more elemental, is anyone's guess.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"firedragon.8953" said:Elder dragons were purposefully corrupted by someone or something yet unknown (or maybe even the gods themselves in a failed experiment).

It wouldn't be the Six Gods, since they post-date the Elder Dragons going evil and Kralkatorrik suffering from Torment. Keep in mind that based on the elder races' records, these six Elder Dragons (Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and the DSD) would be at least 20,000 years old - and the hint from the jotun records would imply at least 30,000 years old. This, of course, works on the notion that every dragonrise cycle is 10,000 years like this previous one (due to the creation of the Bloodstones and the ED rise being sparked by Abaddon's death, this may not be true - but this would also imply a longer gap between rises instead, making the Elder Dragons even older).

The Six Gods first stepped foot on Tyria within the past 3,000 years. Making the Elder Dragons' presence as evil entities on Tyria at least 10x longer than the Six Gods' presence on Tyria.

Each dragon has a non-elemental trait, death, mind, fury, persuasion; with Primordus and the sea dragon somewhat different (or maybe not known, but on the other hand controlling elements that arguably cover or fill most of Tyria) unless "conflagration" is just another way to say "destruction" but with fire.Even if "conflagration" wasn't just another way to say destruction, I'd still argue "explosion" to be as elemental as "shadow" in all honesty.

Or maybe the last two dragons are more "pure" and not actually corrupted and imbued with sentient traits and just embody the natural characteristics of their element. Anyway, by imbuing these traits into the dragons they became mad. Just like us imbuing compassion into Aurean has insured her "goodness". The weakness of the elder dragons (or dragons in general probably) is that likely that they can be "programmed" in a sense. Maybe the Canthans know a little something about this. Would make sense since it was successfully attempted on Glint, semi-successfully on Vlast, and unsuccessfully on Kralk in Tyria.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Kralkatorrik and Jormag were twins at birth. Whether that is still physically true after they became elder dragons, and more elemental, is anyone's guess.

I'm going to hazard a guess and assume you mean "Primordus and Jormag". However, that's only on the notion that Jormag is being literal with her commentary of sister and twin - and since we know for a fact that Jormag's mother wasn't Glint, we know for a fact Jormag isn't literal with calling Aurene "little sister", so good chance they're not literal in calling Primordus their "twin".

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I'm going to hazard a guess and assume you mean "Primordus and Jormag". However, that's only on the notion that Jormag is being literal with her commentary of sister and twin - and since we know for a fact that Jormag's mother wasn't Glint, we know for a fact Jormag isn't literal with calling Aurene "little sister", so good chance they're not literal in calling Primordus their "twin".

Whoops and yes. It doesn't have to be literal. I'm just pointing out that even if we entertain the possibility of actual twins, any previous similarities could have been overwritten by now.