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Champions Chapter 1: Truce thoughts/observations


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So the allies we got in this release are

  • Crystal Bloom: Primary
  • Seraph and Watchknights in Brisban
  • Asura and Golems in Metrica
  • Norn shamans in Gendarran

Other notes

  • Jhavi is still leading the Vigil, since Laranthir hasn't returned from the Grove.
  • We got confirmation that the Pale Tree is better, but still healing from the attack by Mordremoth.
  • The Asuran Counsel has accepted Jormag/Ryland's help.
  • Braham has gained some ability to feel where the larger destroyers are going.
  • Braham and Taimi have a fight over allying with Jormag.
  • Aurene isn't taking an active role in the fighting, and The Commander wishes she would.
  • Jormag says the "balance" is made up, and not real.
  • The group leading the war effort consists of Logan, Crecia, Phlunt, Sigast, and a sylvari whose name i forgot right now
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I would also note that some of the Destroyer names were very interesting. Destroyer of the Great Bridge, Destroyer of Ironhammer Line.Phlunt also notes that there is no Mordremoth or Zhaitan magic present in Primordus' minions and suspects it is due to Primordus learning new ways of harnessing it.

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This was a rare example of the story and dialogue especially taking a front seat over a rather poor content drop. I thought there were some interesting things in this "chapter"

The Jormag alluding to the "balance" was the thing of note for me. I mean I've always hated that narrative and I'd be glad to see it gone, but if they have switched it out after so many years, it just goes to show even Anet no longer seem to think much of their story.

I did like the Braham/Taimi argument. Both had valid points and it was great to see the Asura show their hatred for Primordus rise above all other problems. I'm pretty much in agreement with Braham though

Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

There's also mention of activity far below levels previously known. Perhaps Primordus has burrowed too far?

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I am very curious about the family tree of the Elder Dragons now due to what we learn in the new dialogues for this story update

Jormag categorize Aurene as her little sister.

Jormag confirms that Primordius is her twin brother.

These details are small but it does give us a bit of the picture for the elder dragon's origins.


We also got some talk about Laranthir still not returning yet for unknown reasons and it seems Jhavi has become worried for his unknown long absence. I worry this maybe a sign that they may kill Laranthir off either off screen or have him return for a brief moment just to be killed off.

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I've noticed that Jormag pushes Aurene towards the intervention. It is trying to convince her and all around there is some unfathomable idea about the world existence and its future no one can understand: mortals are too dumb to get it, while Aurene is too young. However Jormag never pointed out directly. We know that Jormag also is a dragon of persuasion, it has its own ways to corrupt others, just like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik did before. I was surprised how Commander's allies (even Taimi) rushed into the fight claiming Primodrus as a threat #1, despite of all madness (Drakkar, Icobrood corruption, Frost Citadel and blood) its actions led to. And I believe the inner conflict will grow even further.

Jormag mentioned it awakened months ago (so basically just now), and we know it is hiding from something:

Bangar Ruinbringer: Frigid lizard is scared.Aurene: Of us?Bangar Ruinbringer: Not likely. And knowing what it is won't change the fact that they're playing you, like a fiddle.

Bangar mentioned it fears of somethings, but I doubt Primodrus is a source of a fear. Additionally Jormag mentioned Kralkattorik madness in previous conversations through Bangar:

Voice of Jormag: Your fear and focus are misplaced. I am not driven to madness and mindless rampage like your grandfather.

So, probably that's the source of a fear? Not to become mad and crazy? It wants Aurene to interfere, to consume as much magic as it's possible. To kill Primodrus and follow her grandfather's fate. It says for multiple times that Aurene is not prepared for something:

Voice of Jormag: And you chose not to intervene. Despite your power and potential, you left it to mortals.Aurene: It's their world as much as mine. There was nothing to be gained—Voice of Jormag: Oh, little sister, how wrong you are. Careful you don't learn the lesson too late.Aurene: So then you kill him.Voice of Jormag: That time will come, but not yet. My twin will awake. And he will set the world ablaze.Voice of Jormag: Look to that World, Aurene. Very soon you will have to make a choice—if you're to have any chance of saving it. [1]

[1] Kill Primodrus and consume its magic or hide just like Jormag does and let the world die in flame.

I think in the next episodes we gonna see more "seeds of discord" among Commander's allies, thanks to Jormag. Commander already mentioned his doubts about Aurene choice not to participate directly while talking with Caithe after 2nd mission.

Also, don't forget that chapter 3 will be called "Balance". So there is actual balance we are going to achieve, whatever it means.

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I think it's the other option for Primordus and the other Elder Dragon magic - He's had the time to convert the magic he's absorbed into his own kind of magic. The same theory has come up before RE Balthazar and his magic. He also consumed Elder Dragon magic but did not show any visual change to his fire, or indeed used other types of magic other than fire and (probably) arcane - The theory was he had converted the magic he consumed to 'his own' magic.

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A solid chapisode. The voice direction is noticeably improved. Well done with Aurene's direction. The dialogue was natural, no one oversold anything. I really hope we see more done with the Norn and Asura as foils. I can't think of a better way to deliver more Norn and Asuran lore. I think we've jumped into an 'alliance' too quickly. Everyone seemed to go along with 'balance' being a superstition The studio worked so hard to show no one being an idiot and mostly talking through a truce or alliance. Makes how everyone reacted stand out. Even Tiami seemed to accept the idea that she was wrong. I want the 6 sphere balance story to evolve, but I want to see it happen over time so it looks realistic. I don't like species stereotyping but it Asurans would not kill Primordus if magiphysics showed it resulting in Tyria's destruction. We have to see the Asurans address the results from Omadd's machine.

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I found I actually enjoyed this episode more than I thought I would. The surprise show of Ryland was big. It's interesting that he notes himself, the Commander, and Caithe all share the fact they are dragon Champions. It alludes to the title of this arc as well as shows us that both The Commander and Caithe are worried that Aurene is being so un involved.

I also found the locations of some of the future dragon missions nice we really are traveling the world and it's very interesting.

Also of note is Brahams new skill to track the champion destroyers. I'm curious to see if this is a part of his new relationship with the Spirts of the wild and that it could mean a lot. Also Crecia is now Blood Imperator and it seems the civil war has wound down now that Ryland is leading the Frost Legion.

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Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

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@Fenom.9457 said:Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

This is an interesting thought. Way back the devs mentioned they might bring back player-driven plot choices, such as electing Evon or Ellen Kiel back in Season 1. What if there's a similar vote on whether Primordus or Jormag dies?

Not sure how I'd feel about that. I've only just played through the initial story leading up to DRMs, but thus far it seems like everyone is VERY conveniently accepting the notion that the 'balance' of The All is fake. A LOT of talk about killing Primordus without any push back that another elder dragon death (without a replacement) would doom the world. I will honestly be upset if the writers handwave the last several years of plot building the notion that we NEED multiple beings to maintain The All so flippantly. Sure, I could maybe see Jormag lying to get their way (especially if they've got a secret scion that could ascend in Primordus' place), but for Aurene, the Commander, and Taimi to just... not bring up the impending apocalypse if Primordus is killed? It makes me very worried the narrative team thinks we're complete imbeciles that wouldn't notice or wouldn't care about this dramatic departure from the status quo built up for the past several years.

Like these notions of killing Primordus are entirely uncontested. The notion that the balance is fake is entirely uncontested. What???????

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@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

This is an interesting thought. Way back the devs mentioned they might bring back player-driven plot choices, such as electing Evon or Ellen Kiel back in Season 1. What if there's a similar vote on whether Primordus or Jormag dies?

Not sure how I'd feel about that. I've only just played through the initial story leading up to DRMs, but thus far it seems like everyone is VERY conveniently accepting the notion that the 'balance' of The All is fake. A LOT of talk about killing Primordus without any push back that another elder dragon death (without a replacement) would doom the world. I will honestly be upset if the writers handwave the last several years of plot building the notion that we NEED multiple beings to maintain The All so flippantly. Sure, I could
maybe
see Jormag lying to get their way (especially if they've got a secret scion that could ascend in Primordus' place), but for Aurene, the Commander, and Taimi to just... not bring up the impending apocalypse if Primordus
is
killed? It makes me very worried the narrative team thinks we're complete imbeciles that wouldn't notice or wouldn't care about this dramatic departure from the status quo built up for the past several years.

Like these notions of killing Primordus are entirely uncontested. The notice that the balance is fake is entirely uncontested. What???????

Yeah, I mean we've SEEN the effects of killing dragons with rampant ley-energy, for one. The only evidence we have that the balance of The All isn't a real problem is the claim of a dragon, who, remember, has a literal domain of magic called PERSUASION, says so, and says that it's older and wiser than all of us and we won't understand it. Is it possible Jormag is subtly manipulating us all, but we the commander don't realize it because we still don't trust Jormag and therefore assume it hasn't gotten to us... but it has.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:So the allies we got in this release are

  • Crystal Bloom: Primary
  • Seraph and Watchknights in Brisban
  • Asura and Golems in Metrica
  • Norn shamans in Gendarran

Other notes

  • Jhavi is still leading the Vigil, since Laranthir hasn't returned from the Grove.
  • We got confirmation that the Pale Tree is better, but still healing from the attack by Mordremoth.
  • The Asuran Counsel has accepted Jormag/Ryland's help.
  • Braham has gained some ability to feel where the larger destroyers are going.
  • Braham and Taimi have a fight over allying with Jormag.
  • Aurene isn't taking an active role in the fighting, and The Commander wishes she would.
  • Jormag says the "balance" is made up, and not real.
  • The group leading the war effort consists of Logan, Crecia, Phlunt, Sigast, and a sylvari whose name i forgot right now

It would not surprise me if literally and thematically we are actually being persuaded by Jormag to some degree and that the Primordus threat is just a red herring.

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In terms of The All, would the elder dragons really suffer from Tyria exploding from an imbalance? Or would they just live through it and keep going? And now that they have access to the mists, would The All being destroyed ultimately be beneficial to them somehow? Allowing them to go wherever they want, do whatever they want?

I don't know, but it seems pretty obvious Jormag is hiding something and seems extremely hellbent on eliminating Primordus. I'm just not sure if this is a ruse and they're actually in their own alliance leading us into a trap, or if it's Jormag playing a game to come out on top. As far as twists go, I'd say the biggest twist would be that Primordus and Jormag are working together to play everyone else. Given Jormag's constant push and manipulation into getting us to look badly at Aurene for not stepping in, (suspicious or not), I'm wondering if the end goal of such an alliance would be to force Aurene's hand and have Primordus and Jormag ultimately looking to eliminate Aurene as the one being that likely has the strongest chance of standing in their way.

I am interested in seeing more development on the effect of the absorbed elder dragons on Primordus and Jormag though. So far we've just seen hints of things here and there but now we're down 3 elder dragons and it seems like it's probably time to start delivering on that instead of occasionally dipping into it slightly here and there.

And the Braham bit was definitely interesting and will play a larger role. So they're either building up to him being a champion of Primordus, or he's being corrupted by the magic he used to ignite the bow, or his connection to the spirits somehow has given him the ability to sense elder dragons on a different level. Given that we've only witnessed it with Primordus so far, it seems like it might have more to do with Primordus either using Mordremoth's mind power (if he has that) to lead Braham to him, or he's already been tainted by Primordus and the little bit of corruption he may have is starting to take hold.

Only time will tell, but I'd imagine the story will involve a lot more action in the coming months than just Charr 1 bickering with Charr 2, which is a relief for me.

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  • Still no Zojja
  • Laranthir about to get the Zojja treatment as well?

Honsetly, I am really looking forward to whats to happen to Ryland and Rytlock. Rytlock has been involved in every story so far, and I'd like him to be written out just for ONCE and giving other a chance to shine on the stage.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

DIdn't he say either Primodus was able to purge Zhaitan and Mordy's magic or accommodate it? I personally thing the purging theory is more sound. That is because we had also swapped magic between Jormag and Priomorus previously. Although swapping those two did seem especially detrimental. So it could be that Primordus is awake now because the foreign magics have been purged, including swapping Jormag's and Promordu's magic back.

This also makes me wonder what Ryland actually did with the spirits of the wild to wake Jormag. Did Jormag consume parts of their magic. Or are the spirits of the wild a conduit to a certain kind of ley line that helps the dragons swap magic back. Omadds machine swapped the dragons magic in the 'wrong' way putting Jormag and Primodus to sleep, so can the spirits do the opposite, and is that why Jormag's and Primodu's awakening are coincidental? If the spirits are actually stewards of dragon magic in some way, maybe that is why Braham, who has been blsed by them, is able to sense the dragon minions.

Although if this is the case, where did Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic go? Maybe the Pale tree is somehow pulling Mordremoth's magic back. If the Pale tree is doing something, I wonder if Laranthir is helping (I just see no other reason for him to be abdicating his duties to the Vigil). Zhaitan's magic, who knows where it is going. The ley lines crisscross the world.

Well at least Aurene still believes in the balance. And although her way of maintaining it by staying out of the way is a bit dissapointing. But... this seems to be a pretty common thing in Guild Wars lore. The commander asked Kormir for some kind of blessings to help against Balthazar, and got nothing. Kormir asked the other gods for blessing to take on Abaddon, but was only told she already had everything she needed... Perhaps it is just a recurring issue with writing needing to buss away the all powerful entities, but perhaps the excuse of 'balance' can be made a compelling reason for powerful beings to step back.

Another interesting note. The second in the new mastery line lets you get a boon based on the last dragon champion killed and use that boon in the next response mission. Currently every response mission is a Primordus response mission, and you always get a Primordus based boon. It makes me wonder though, does the last champion killed matter if it is always going to be a Primordus champion? The language is neutral on the description... oh and uhh.. the wiki has all of the mastery descriptions already... and uhm... it seems quite spoilerish.

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@PseudoNewb.5468 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

DIdn't he say either Primodus was able to purge Zhaitan and Mordy's magic or accommodate it? I personally thing the purging theory is more sound.

The exact quote is;

"Primordus' slumber may have allowed it time to process the foreign magic - or alter itself to accomodate it. We don't really know at this point"

So could be converted or purged, but purged does seem less likely based on the wording. And it could mean a model change.

If it's the latter, maybe he's fixed his underbite...

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I wish I could make the writers see this thread, but I am not sure how much it would change at this point.

I am getting really frustrated with the amount of unexplained/handwaved things in this story. I shouldn't care this much, but I've been following the game's story for years now and I wish it would respect itself as much as its fans did, because the potential is there. And it makes me really sad.

Of course, they still have the time to resolve many of these points, but I really dread that they will not do it. They SHOULD already have started doing so.

After this patch, these are the things I struggle with in particular:

  • There is not enough talking about magical fallout in the Icebrood Saga. Either Primordus' death or Jormag's death would mean that yet another Elder Dragon will be dead, but with all that happened in S4, it seemed like we need at least 4 active Elder Dragons in order for Tyria not to collapse. Yeah, that's the main reason why we went to stop Balthazar in the first place!Where has that notion gone? Has Tyria been fully healed by Aurene, to the point where we can just kill dragons as we please? If so, why was this not said? Is Aurene currently taking the roles of multiple Elder Dragons/"orbs", so more dragons can now die because Aurene is now the successor to Mordremoth, Zhaitan AND Kralkatorrik at the same time? If so, why was this not stated?

  • Which leads me to my next point. We know that Aurene is "the first of her kind", a Prismatic Elder Dragon who can absorb all the magic she damn well pleases. Okay, fine. But we were never told how this is possible. How is she the first of her kind? I have my theory for this, but it's just that - a theory. Don't the writers believe they should somehow tell us how Aurene came to be that special? Or what her limits are? Can she replace every last Elder Dragon and take their place? If so, that's a) a pretty cheap way to resolve everything and b) they didn't say so in the game.And now that Aurene is reluctant about even joining in on the whole Primordus vs. Jormag thing, it seems like she herself forgot about the possibility to maybe replace one of them - the necessity even. (See my first point.) Does she just want to let Primordus absorb Jormag, or vice versa? And even if so, what would that even mean, considering that...

  • Jormag and Primordus are each other's weakness. Yes, it was a big thing in Season 3, and no, it's not come up this far in the Icebrood Saga. No one is mentioning it - not Aurene, not the Commander, and not even Taimi, who almost doomed the world upon trying to exploit this weakness, but then figuring out that MORE DRAGONS DYING IS BAD. (See my first point.) Especially without having a replacement! (See my second point.) I was especially dismayed that the story summary of yesterday's patch claims that "we need to find Primordus' weakness", even though we should already_ know _that his weakness is Jormag, and it should cause us to completely re-evaluate what Jormag has been saying to us!

  • And here is my next point. Everyone seems to be underestimating Jormag in favor of making this new plot direction work. Taimi shouldn't be this careless after all she has already witnessed about the Elder Dragons. It's also a bit weird that she references what Primordus did to the Asura with such personal bitterness: She never witnessed any of those events, all she knows is the surface world, and the Asura have a pretty supreme and comfortable position in surface Tyria, especially because of their technological superiority. If anything, she should remember the destruction the OTHER dragons caused within the last decade. Caithe shouldn't be this accepting of Ryland being Icebrood after her experiences fighting the Dragonspawn in the Destiny's Edge novel, and fighting Icebrood at the Honor of the Waves. She should have been at Ryland's throat with her blade, threatening to end him if she doesn't like where the whole thing is going - but she just sort of rolls with it, just as the Asura do. Braham is put in a position where he is suddenly the paranoid one because he still cares about Jormag being manipulative and a liar. Is this really realistic? People are now contemplating that he will become Primordus' champion, but I think that would be a terrible direction and totally destroy the effort that they've put into him as a character in Season 4...

Other things that bug me:

  • A piece of dialogue mentions that Primordus adapted to the magics from Mordremoth and Zhaitan. What does that mean, "adapted"? Shouldn't they be at war within him, as they were within Kralkatorrik? Is Primordus now a Prismatic Dragon as well? How does this not go against everything they established in Season 4?
  • The whole thing about Jormag and his "domain of persuasion". Jormag claims he never forcibly corrupts, yet Bangar kind of was given a role he did not want. And how has Jormag aligned his goals with that of the Frost Legion (or their goals with his), when the Frost Legion were technically created to serve Bangar, not Jormag? How are the Frost Legion currently willing soldiers of Jormag/Ryland? I just don't quite understand how all this is supposed to work.

I will edit the post if I remember other issues.

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@Ruadan.9301 I feel you. The only idea I can really put forth is the possibility Jormag is magically manipulating us to a greater extent than we realize, making us going along with things we should know better than to go along with. Psychologically influencing Aurene to feel like she shouldn’t intervene with their banter. Maybe something that will be revealed down the line, but I don’t know if they’re going to execute it well (if they’re not just hand waving). It’s sad to have so little faith right now.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:The Jormag alluding to the "balance" was the thing of note for me. I mean I've always hated that narrative and I'd be glad to see it gone, but if they have switched it out after so many years, it just goes to show even Anet no longer seem to think much of their story.

I hope that line doesn't mean they are going to retcon the whole fucking story so we can now kill Elder Dragons without consequences because "the balance of magic thing is made up". Because that would completely invalidate pretty much everything we've done since the end of Heart of Thorns. :/

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I think we are being led down a dark path. Even the dialogue between Marjory and Jhavi. Majory insisting on saving people and Jhavi willing to let them die? This seems like a big red flag. The Pact and by extension the Vigil is willing to bring the fight to the dragons.. the idea of sacrificing the whole of the Ascalonian settlement is not in character for them.

Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

Taino and the Asura: this is possible the worst response I've ever seen. I recalled actually saying Don't drink the coolaid! When hearing the Arcane Council meet with Ryland. Taino is alot smarter than this. But Jormag pulled his trump card The Tyrian Underground. The Asura have been left out of their home for 250 years. Most Asura have never been to the ancient cities and per ghosts of Ascalon many can't even read ancient Asuran. They see the reclamation of the 6 underground cities as their victory against Primordus.

The fact I felt the only sane ones were Braham and Banger.....makes my head hurt.

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The voice direction and dialogue worked well together. There are obvious issues with how people are acting. It was easy to hear and see Aurene's anxiety and lack of confidence. It as easy to hear Jormag's hunger. They sounded desperate and driven to persuade. What do we do if Primordus shows up and says the balance must be maintained? Champion Braham is possible and works within the premise of balance. There is still so much potential for drama but that potential evaporates as the world becomes less realistic. The studio spent too much time making the balance realistic and reflective of Tyrian magiphysics. The studio won't jump without a chute right? Right?

edit: If balance is till required then falling out of balance is a threat bigger than any Elder Dragon. We could use a bigger Act 2 into Act 3 threat and the Commander can't make this threat happen. We need a way to make this threat happen, at least partially. We may be seeing that happen. I would still expect some more voices joining Braham's as we see seven? more missions worth of dialogue.

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Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to stfu about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

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@"HotDelirium.7984" said:

It would not surprise me if literally and thematically we are actually being persuaded by Jormag to some degree and that the Primordus threat is just a red herring.

I can already smell the plot from 10 years away.

  • Jormag says Primordus is a bigger threat.
  • Primordus is rip.
  • Jormag succs Primordus EXP and offers Aurene the same.
  • Jormag wants Aurene to embrace her role as an ED and stop "playing around with mortals"
  • Things go down.
  • Jormag flees after 1 confrontation, Aurene licks her wounds.
  • Cantha time, with Bubbles lurking around.

EoD speculation :

  • Racist Canthans
  • Rally Canthans for upcoming threat of either Bubbles or Jormag
  • Racists don't care, disaster, okay we believe yu guys now q.q
  • Prep time
  • Bubbles is up on the plate to fight (or Jormag)
  • Other ED is left for LW6
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