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How to Calculate Your Healing Effectiveness (Debunking Healing Myths)


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For a long time I've wanted to make this thread because there is a misconception out there, that you can't calculate your effectiveness as a healer due to a lack of "Healing Meters" or for reasons that deal with Allied HP being full all the time, thus a HPS measurement can't be accurately calculated. Although that statement is somewhat true, it doesn't mean that you can't reliably calculate performance as a healer just as you could with a DPS.

The concept is based on taking the maximum potential of a build or it's individuals abilities. You can then determine how effective you are reaching this potential by calculating the efficacy at which you are playing the build in comparison to the potential. This is useful because one can analyze the advantages and disadvantages of different sigils, runes and trait options by calculating their potentials and then comparing them using this method, as well as determining performance, and finding more efficient and optimal strategy, and even learning how to fight as a solo healer.

**Calculating the Potential**
The potential of a build is each skill you could realistically use on a build, adding up each skills total healing capacity and counting 
up all the number of times you could have used each skill within some arbitrary amount of time. Since the amount of time is arbitrary, 
the longer the length of time, the more accurate the value of the potential would be. You can also make potential calculations with or
without quickness and alacrity taken into account. Quickness and Alacrity serve only to give you a larger potential values, or more 
accurate values in raid settings. Since values for potentials are rather high, you can usually neglect cast times in your calculation 
unless they are of statistically significant length. So a skill with a 1 second cast time and a 4 second cooldown should be treated as 
having a 5 second cooldown. Skills with a 1 second cast time and a 0 second cooldown should be treated as a skill with a 1 second 
cooldown, and skills with a 1/4 cast time and a 25 second cooldown should be treated as a skill with 25 second cooldown. 
Those values will of course vary with Alacrity and quickness, and if you aim to get the min-max truest value possible,
 you would take exact cast times and cooldowns at the cost of making longer and more complicated calculations.

I main a Tempest in Strike Missions, and so below is an example of taking the potential healing calculation for a Tempest Healer in a 
10 man squad, using the build below as the basis for the calculation
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwcYMsQWJm+XWtaA-zxIYwogvMSsAqOB89gEKbg3ifbWA-eThe first step in calculating the potential here, 
would be to account for your outgoing heal effectiveness to include it in your calculation. 
Since the end values are rather large and differences between other numbers are within orders of magnitude, you can estimate this 
amount without real worry in accurate calculation.

Rune of the Monk -20%
Bountiful Maintence Oil - 15%
Delicious Rice Ball - 10%
Sigil of Transference - 10%
Water Arrow - 20%
Aquamancers Training - 15%

(If using Sigil of Benevolence) 
Total : 90% - 102%

For the purposes of a simple calculation I will be using 100% Healing Effectiveness. 

For the next part of the calculation, we will assume an arbitrary time of a 3 minute (180 second) long engagement, 
without Quickness or Alacrity.

Potential of Full Heal Tempest Calculation ->! 

**Water Arrow**>! >! (2040 x 5 Allies) =10,400 >! >! 10,400 x 180 uses per 180 seconds = 1,836,000 Healing>! 1,836,000 Healing>! >! **Overload Water (with Healing Ripple procs)**>! >! 1554 x 4 (pulses) = 6,216 x 10(allies) = 62,160>! >! 9,330 x 10 (allies)= 46,650>! >! 8,486 x 10 (allies)= 84,860>! >! 6078 x 5 (allies)= 30,390>! >!224,060 x 8.37 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 😎 = 1,792,480 Healing>! 1,792,480 Healing>! >! **Soothing Mist**>! >! (10,908 x 10 allies) = 109,080>! >! 109080 x 18 uses per 180 seconds = 1,963,440 Healing>! 1,963,440 Healing>! >! **Wash the Pain Away!**>! >! 14,410 x 10 (allies) = 144,100>! >! 144,100 x 8.37 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 😎 = 1,152,800 Healing>! 1,152,800 Healing>! >! **Evasive Arcana**>! >! 6390 x 5 (allies) = 31,950>! >! 31,950 x 18 uses per 180 seconds = 575,100 Healing>! 575,100 Healing>! >! **Elemental Bastion + Flash Freeze**>! >! 3164 x 10 (allies) = 31,640>! >! 4242 x 10 (allies) = 42,420>! >! 74,060 x 7.2 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 7) = 518,420 Healing>! 575,100 Healing>! >! **Elemental Bastion + Eye of the Storm**>! >! 3164 x 10 (allies) = 31,640>! >! 31,640 x 4.5-9 uses per 180 seconds...(round 4.5 down to 4) = 126,560 - 284,760  Healing>! 126,560 - 284,760 Healing>! >! **Elemental Bastion + Rebound**>! >! 13,874 x (10 Allies)  = 138,740>! >! 138,740 x 2.4 uses per 180 seconds...(round 2.4 down to 2) = 277,480  Healing>! 277,480  HealingApproximately 8.2 million Healing (Total Healing Potential over the course of a 3 minute engagement)~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~**Determining Efficacy**After finding the potential of not only the build as a whole, but of individual skills, you can calculate the efficacy of which you use this build. The Potential is the realistic maximum healing you could ever possibly imagine to do in a fight, which implies that all conditions are ideally met, which also means that during the entire engagement, there will always be Health bars that need replenishing for the exact maximum number that your heals can provide. Realistically this is impossible to achieve, and so this is why it's called the potential. The Efficacy is always a percentage of the total potential, which shows you how close you are to reaching the potential healing of your build.Efficacy is thus provided by the total amount you healed after a fight, and using that number, you can compare it to your potential as a ratio or percentage. For example, During a Boneskinner clear last week, i had healed for 4.083 million healing over the course of 4 minutes. Because it was a 4 minute engagement my healing potential was around 10.93 million, which means my healing efficacy during this fight was around 37.35% of the potential.Healing Efficacy is relative based on a number of things. The main information to take away from efficacy, is to determine how to get higher and higher percentages. There are a number of ways to do this, but to list them off...1) Having a higher healing potential.2) Healing a group solo3) Fighting more healing intensive bosses4) Improving your rotation or instating a Priority RotationThe first one is based on your build...Is there a configuration of build options that provide a greater potential? This is directly correlated with efficacy and can increase your performance by just increasing the potential your build can heal for.Healing a group solo and fighting bosses that are healing intensive are ways to push your healing as close to the potential of your build as possible. This can help determine whether you need a build with a higher potential, or if you need to improve your efficacy if you cant get healing anywhere near the potential of your build.The last one is important. Notice how some skills in the potential calculation vastly out-heal others by several millions. This means that if you were to prioritize some skills over other skills in your rotation, and using said skills more often, you would be healing for significantly more and getting higher efficacy percentages, which means you are more able to heal groups solo and/or fight more healing intensive bosses with less difficulty.~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~**Conclusion**I hope this information was helpful for those that want to become better healers. Not only does this method apply to healing, but it can apply to nearly every mechanic in the game, including DPS builds, Boon builds, Strip builds Condi builds...so long as you can measure the mechanic in ARCDPS as a total number, you can measure the potentials and the efficacy to deduce the above information. You can also use this kind of information to further compress functions in a group setting, or streamline jobs to be more efficient (by maximizing potentials) 
Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Approximately 8.2 million Healing (Total Healing Potential over the course of a 3 minute engagement)

Efficacy is thus provided by the total amount you healed after a fight, and using that number, you can compare it to your potential as a ratio or percentage. For example, During a Boneskinner clear last week, i had healed for 4.083 million healing over the course of 4 minutes. Because it was a 4 minute engagement my healing potential was around 10.93 million, which means my healing efficacy during this fight was around 37.35% of the potential.

just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64Medium: 2594.38Light: 2400.86; 2268.16so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10manIt doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.so i doubt you'll ever reach 100%, well you can't as you don't take in account that you can't use all skill at same time.

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@Fangoth.4503 said:so i doubt you'll ever reach 100%, well you can't as you don't take in account that you can't use all skill at same time.

You can never ever reach 100% of the potential, you can only get closer and closer efficacy to it. The only way to have 100% is if you are fighting in the most ideal situation imaginable, where everyone is taking enough damage for you to heal through at all times, and also assumes your rotation is perfect, which it can never be because of how skill cast times overlap with cooldowns. So you can never reach the potential, you can only get closer and closer to it.

just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64Medium: 2594.38Light: 2400.86; 2268.16so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10manIt doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.

Not really sure what this is showing. You mind explaining what your numbers mean because they aren't defined properly here...is 36704 damage or is that healing? Is that per second? Are you using the same build with the same potential calculation? If you are taking damage received as a parameter, then that damage reduction already includes protection and auras because the number is pumped into your combat logs after its been calculated, you wouldn't add those on afterword's.

Also the amount of damage a boss does to you and your party is already in the total number of healing you, and every other healer in your party did at the end of a fight in those 3 minutes, but its definitely not the maximum damage, and you can't derive the maximum amount you can heal from that. Calculating the maximum healing on a particular boss based on their damage to your party is a different kind of calculation...Because you can technically have bosses that do 0 damage with a potential damage calculation of of several millions...and this depends on if people know mechanics or not, or if people are taking the damage or not. This is why rather than basing the calculation off the opposing monster dealing damage, the calculation is based on how much a build can heal within some arbitrary amount of time, no matter how much damage is being dealt.

Please be a bit more clear with what you are calculating so I can understand this part of the comment better thanks.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64Medium: 2594.38Light: 2400.86; 2268.16so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10manIt doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.

Not really sure what this is showing. You mind explaining what your numbers mean because they aren't defined properly here...is 36704 damage or is that healing? Is that per second?

its damage taken per second at boss skinner and you cannot heal more than your team looses. if your group looses 4,400,116.2 over the 3 minutes you cannot heal more than 4,400,116.2

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@Fangoth.4503 said:its damage taken per second at boss skinner and you cannot heal more than your team looses. if your group looses 4,400,116.2 over the 3 minutes you cannot heal more than 4,400,116.2

This statement is true. However Boneskinner's maximum damage output in 3 minutes isn't capped out at 4.4 million. The maximum damage Boneskinner or any boss can do in a set time frame is based on how much damage your team is actually taking from the boss. Like i mentioned before, there are situations in which you can take 0 damage from boneskinner if you know all mechanics and know how to not take the damage, and thus your healing would also be 0. This is why taking the damage that's done isn't the right calculation for your healing effectiveness.

In another example, If you have a Healing Potential of 8 million in 3 minutes, and the boss is able to do 5 million damage in 3 minutes, than you will only be able to heal maximum for 5 million in those three minutes. But if the boss is able to do 10 million damage in 3 minutes, than you will heal for only a maximum of 8 million in those 3 minutes. The variable here is the boss, and the constant is the healing potential, and that's why the healing potential (and it's efficacy) is the right calculation for finding out your healing effectiveness in a fight.

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The way Kitty's been doing it when crafting heal support builds is calculating avg. healing per ally per second from each skill ( (base healing + healing power x multiplier) x total outgoing heals % ÷ realistic time between casts (cast time+cooldown or time you use it on as part of rota), values from wiki and also taking trait-related variation into account) and then summing them up to a total average heals per second for pretty close estimation of healing potential. Kitty also makes notes of burst heals and general healing floor to get an idea of how well it fits certain bosses based on knowledge about the bosses and "damage taken" data from logs (converted into incoming dps per squadie) and 10-target heals are counted as double their value to get valid comparison against most heal skills (at the cost of less accurate estimation of build's realistic viability as 5-target healer if a healer relies most on 10-target heals, read: tempest and heal scourge).

When Kitty last did it a year ago, the numbers were something like this (potential healing per squadie) and they've hardly changed at all in PvE since then :Heal/boon Engineer 7200Heal Scrapper 6800Heal/boon Renegade 6000-6500Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500Heal Staff Tempest 5000Heal Herald 4500Heal Warhorn Tempest (aka. Auramancer) with Frost Bow 4000Heal Firebrand 3200 (Excl. blocked damage due to huge variation but increases heal potential vastly if blocking correct attacks)Heal 10-Mightbot Scourge 2800 (Incl. Barriers which count as proactive heals that usually have very little waste compared to reactive/rotation-bound heals)Heal GotL Druid with normal rotation 2800Heal 10-Quickness Chronomancer 2500Heal Mightbot Deadeye 2300Heal Shout Warrior 2000-2250 (at condi-heavy bosses)

To give some perspective, average raid boss does about 800-1,500 damage per second (which is why most classes can soloheal less damage-intensive bosses if the healer knows their stuff) and Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. You usually want at least 10-20% margin if incoming damage bursts at all and that's probably enough to show why average druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...). Though Kitty can heal through it as 2nd healer with only warhorn equipped but even then she's so damn greedy mightbot that she outheals most druids by at least 50-100% so that's a moot point. If people want real carry heals, they better bring an engifriend who's watched Kitty's vids. Though the gyro rubs are so cold, Kitty's heard. Not to mention that engi has a certain ress utility that's more clutch than scourge resses in some cases. And dps engi can bring it with AED to cheese through 1-hit squad downed mechs like CA's clap.

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@"LadyKitty.6120" said:The way Kitty's been doing it when crafting heal support builds is calculating avg. healing per ally per second from each skill ( (base healing + healing power x multiplier) x total outgoing heals % ÷ realistic time between casts (cast time+cooldown or time you use it on as part of rota), values from wiki and also taking trait-related variation into account) and then summing them up to a total average heals per second for pretty close estimation of healing potential. Kitty also makes notes of burst heals and general healing floor to get an idea of how well it fits certain bosses based on knowledge about the bosses and "damage taken" data from logs (converted into incoming dps per squadie) and 10-target heals are counted as double their value to get valid comparison against most heal skills (at the cost of less accurate estimation of build's realistic viability as 5-target healer if a healer relies most on 10-target heals, read: tempest and heal scourge).

When Kitty last did it a year ago, the numbers were something like this (potential healing per squadie) and they've hardly changed at all in PvE since then :Heal/boon Engineer 7200Heal Scrapper 6800Heal/boon Renegade 6000-6500Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500Heal Staff Tempest 5000Heal Herald 4500Heal Warhorn Tempest (aka. Auramancer) with Frost Bow 4000Heal Firebrand 3200 (Excl. blocked damage due to huge variation but increases heal potential vastly if blocking correct attacks)Heal 10-Mightbot Scourge 2800 (Incl. Barriers which count as proactive heals that usually have very little waste compared to reactive/rotation-bound heals)Heal GotL Druid with normal rotation 2800Heal 10-Quickness Chronomancer 2500Heal Mightbot Deadeye 2300Heal Shout Warrior 2000-2250 (at condi-heavy bosses)

Hi Kitty.

I'd invite you to do these calculations again with the above methodology in the original post in mind. Your method seems very much similar, but it might not be rigorous or exact enough. Only reason I say this is by looking at your example of Heal Frostbow Tempests 5.5k heal per second (which is what i currently main), and this number of 5,500 hps is just...way too low, and less then what I've personally experience on a day to day basis. Now you could work backwards a little, in order to show what the potential heal is based on the numbers you've provided in comparison to the potential...

Heal Frostbow Tempest 55005500/second x 180seconds (a 3 minute engagement) = 990,000 per 3 minute engagement. (If this is true, that's a 12% efficacy when compared to the potential of 8.2 million healing)

Now, I'm not sure what the build you used for this calculation was, or how the calculation was done, or what factors were included or excluded. I would suggest perhaps maybe not for tempest, but for whatever healer you main (Heal Scrapper sounds fun) to do the calculation laid out in the original post, we can weed out subjective measurements and use objective values. If you could also provide the build you use for calculation as well, we could both calculate it together and corroborate our findings.

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JusticeRetroHunter you are talking about different numbers than Kitty,Kitty is talking about heal per person while you are talking about total heal for the whole squad, so you need to multiply your number of 990,000 that you got for Kitty with 10 and you get a number of 9,900,000 total heal.

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@Alex.9106 said:JusticeRetroHunter you are talking about different numbers than Kitty,Kitty is talking about heal per person while you are talking about total heal for the whole squad, so you need to multiply your number of 990,000 that you got for Kitty with 10 and you get a number of 9,900,000 total heal.

ohhhh alright thanks for saying that I was totally thrown off by the difference in numbers. I didn't see that she specified that in her post. Although 9.9 million in 3 minutes isn't possible either, so i still think there's something going on with these numbers...my guess is that maybe it has quickness and alacrity taken into account?...or just some variables that we've yet to agree on. The idea is that the calculations should be lining up more or less and not be so vastly different.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

I did a rough estimate calculation with Heal Scrapper, and the potential to heal is there, but i agree in that I do not think it's as strong as Kitty points out. My calculation was very quick and back of the envelop so I'm gonna spend some more time on it make sure everything is right... but the conclusion here is that Engineer has a lower potential than Frostbow Tempest and thus has less long term sustain, but it has a nice way to produce concurrent healing, which gives it more inflated HPS to produce higher healing in certain time frames, by using long duration fields.

. The calculation at first was with 100% Healing Effectivness, which i know can't be reached on a Scrapper (it's more like 60%) so numbers that you see in the spoiler tags are mostly higher than their final numbers, where i put in 60%. Also, Quickness was applied to Medblaster where it actually matters, but a more consistent calculation would exclude quickness and alacrity for all abilities in order to weigh it equally with other classes, and one could simply make a calculation later that adds quickness and alacrity. Again i will go back to make a more consistent calculation in order to have it be on equal footing with every class just so people can compare it if they want to.
**Calculation**Now basically, 1 mechanic on the build makes up over 60% of it's healing and the other mechanics make the other 40%, by margins of several millions. Those would be -**MedBlaster**>! assuming 9 boons for entire fight on all allies (no quickness, no alacrity)...>! >! base = 370 per pulse (before healing effectivness)>! Healing for each boon = 268 per pulse (before healing effectivness)>! 370+268 = 638 per pulse.>! >! 638 x 3 = 1913 (x100% healing effectivness) = 3,826>! 3,826 x 5 allies = 19,132 per cast>! >! 19,132 x 144 uses in 3 minutes = 2,755,008>! 19,132 x 110 uses in 2m18s = 2,112,172this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...and with an accurate healing effectiveness which is around more like 50/60% instead of 100%, it would be more like 3.7 million healing in 3 minutes from just medblaster.The other mechanic would be the combination of Medical Dispersion Field and Compounding Chemicals, which would vary based on how many boons were actually applied to you during a fight. I used some numbers as a reference from one of Kitty's videos, which is the amount of boons applied during a fight that took 2m and 18s, and then just figured it out and transposed that number for a 3 minute fight to keep calculations consistent.**Medical Dispersion Field + Compounding Chemicals**>! 3,308 in 2m18s minutes (138seconds)>! >! 71 healing per boon granted to self>! medical disperation = 71 healing to 5 allies>! >! So, everytime a boon is granted to you (in this case 3,308 boons>! were granted to you) you heal 5 allies for 71 healing for a total of>! 1,174,340 in the course of a 2m18s fight. This number of course will>! differ based on how many boons are applied to you in a fight in the same>! time frame.>! >! Assuming boons were applied at the same rate for a 3 minute engagement = >! 1,531,747 Healing.Again on this calculation i used 100% Healing Effectiveness, when in reality it's more like 50/60% maximum, so a more realistic number is 919,048 Healing in 3 minutes.The rest of the abilities on Scrapper are near negligible in comparison to Med-Blaster, that it appears that it is almost not even worth using any other skills other than medblaster. ~~And these were calculated with 100% healing effectiveness (for simplicity sake) so the numbers give or take will be less than what's shown (of course quickness and Alacrity would probably make up for the 40% loss in healing effectiveness.~~ Updated the the numbers below to reflect 60% healing effectivness, and added additional abilities. **Bandage Self**618,880 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**SuperElixer**350,676 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Bandage Blast**303,424 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Vital Burst**134298 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Elixer Shell**120600 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)The only thing I've yet to figure out is Regeneration on this build, but i can assume that if engineer were to be able to perma upkeep regeneration on 10 people, with 60% Healing Effectiveness it is maxed out at 669600 Healing**Regeneration**669600 = 3m00s~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~**Conclusion**So if we were to add up all those numbers, without quickness and alacrity, the potential seems to be around 5.2 million...with quickness for Medblaster, that number goes up to 6.2 million. Again, I'd like to do a more consistent calculation so that we can compare it under the same conditions as other builds so that we can have valid comparisons (again this is rough back of the envelop calculation), but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.This leads to the next point, which is that Scrapper according to the potential has less Healing Potential as a Frostbow Heal Tempest. Now all builds have their pros and cons, and i think Scrapper has it's place for stacking up simultaneous healing via long duration pulsing heal fields (which can give you a more inflated HPS during bursts) but over longer durations, it will not out heal a Frostbow heal Tempest.Lastly, this thread isn't really meant to compare other classes and builds really... it's meant to show how effective one is using their build in an encounter. Based on the calculation, One could simply use Med Blaster the entire time and see "pretty" good results. One would weigh in a priority rotation, whether it's worth not using 2 applications of a medblaster in order to use Elixer Shell or Vital Burst etc...Anyway, i will get back to this thread with a more precise and consistent calculation so that there can be no arguments about it. If anyone would like to go head and do calculations using the method to corroborate our findings (It's best to find numbers that agree with each other) than we can be certain about whether anyone has made mistakes or not.
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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

I did a rough estimate calculation with Heal Scrapper, and the potential to heal is there, but i agree in that I do not think it's as strong as Kitty points out. My calculation was very quick and back of the envelop so I'm gonna spend some more time on it make sure everything is right... but the conclusion here is that Engineer has a lower potential than Frostbow Tempest and thus has less long term sustain, but it has a nice way to produce concurrent healing, which gives it more inflated HPS to produce higher healing in certain time frames, by using long duration fields.

. The calculation at first was with 100% Healing Effectivness, which i know can't be reached on a Scrapper (it's more like 60%) so numbers that you see in the spoiler tags are mostly higher than their final numbers, where i put in 60%. Also, Quickness was applied to Medblaster where it actually matters, but a more consistent calculation would exclude quickness and alacrity for all abilities in order to weigh it equally with other classes, and one could simply make a calculation later that adds quickness and alacrity. Again i will go back to make a more consistent calculation in order to have it be on equal footing with every class just so people can compare it if they want to.
**Calculation**Now basically, 1 mechanic on the build makes up over 60% of it's healing and the other mechanics make the other 40%, by margins of several millions. Those would be -**MedBlaster**>! assuming 9 boons for entire fight on all allies (no quickness, no alacrity)...>! >! base = 370 per pulse (before healing effectivness)>! Healing for each boon = 268 per pulse (before healing effectivness)>! 370+268 = 638 per pulse.>! >! 638 x 3 = 1913 (x100% healing effectivness) = 3,826>! 3,826 x 5 allies = 19,132 per cast>! >! 19,132 x 144 uses in 3 minutes = 2,755,008>! 19,132 x 110 uses in 2m18s = 2,112,172this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...and with an accurate healing effectiveness which is around more like 50/60% instead of 100%, it would be more like 3.7 million healing in 3 minutes from just medblaster.The other mechanic would be the combination of Medical Dispersion Field and Compounding Chemicals, which would vary based on how many boons were actually applied to you during a fight. I used some numbers as a reference from one of Kitty's videos, which is the amount of boons applied during a fight that took 2m and 18s, and then just figured it out and transposed that number for a 3 minute fight to keep calculations consistent.**Medical Dispersion Field + Compounding Chemicals**>! 3,308 in 2m18s minutes (138seconds)>! >! 71 healing per boon granted to self>! medical disperation = 71 healing to 5 allies>! >! So, everytime a boon is granted to you (in this case 3,308 boons>! were granted to you) you heal 5 allies for 71 healing for a total of>! 1,174,340 in the course of a 2m18s fight. This number of course will>! differ based on how many boons are applied to you in a fight in the same>! time frame.>! >! Assuming boons were applied at the same rate for a 3 minute engagement = >! 1,531,747 Healing.Again on this calculation i used 100% Healing Effectiveness, when in reality it's more like 50/60% maximum, so a more realistic number is 919,048 Healing in 3 minutes.The rest of the abilities on Scrapper are near negligible in comparison to Med-Blaster, that it appears that it is almost not even worth using any other skills other than medblaster. ~~And these were calculated with 100% healing effectiveness (for simplicity sake) so the numbers give or take will be less than what's shown (of course quickness and Alacrity would probably make up for the 40% loss in healing effectiveness.~~ Updated the the numbers below to reflect 60% healing effectivness, and added additional abilities. **Bandage Self**618,880 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**SuperElixer**350,676 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Bandage Blast**303,424 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Vital Burst**134298 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)**Elixer Shell**120600 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)The only thing I've yet to figure out is Regeneration on this build, but i can assume that if engineer were to be able to perma upkeep regeneration on 10 people, with 60% Healing Effectiveness it is maxed out at 669600 Healing**Regeneration**669600 = 3m00s~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~    ~~~~~**Conclusion**So if we were to add up all those numbers, without quickness and alacrity, the potential seems to be around 5.2 million...with quickness for Medblaster, that number goes up to 6.2 million. Again, I'd like to do a more consistent calculation so that we can compare it under the same conditions as other builds so that we can have valid comparisons (again this is rough back of the envelop calculation), but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.This leads to the next point, which is that Scrapper according to the potential has less Healing Potential as a Frostbow Heal Tempest. Now all builds have their pros and cons, and i think Scrapper has it's place for stacking up simultaneous healing via long duration pulsing heal fields (which can give you a more inflated HPS during bursts) but over longer durations, it will not out heal a Frostbow heal Tempest.Lastly, this thread isn't really meant to compare other classes and builds really... it's meant to show how effective one is using their build in an encounter. Based on the calculation, One could simply use Med Blaster the entire time and see "pretty" good results. One would weigh in a priority rotation, whether it's worth not using 2 applications of a medblaster in order to use Elixer Shell or Vital Burst etc...Anyway, i will get back to this thread with a more precise and consistent calculation so that there can be no arguments about it. If anyone would like to go head and do calculations using the method to corroborate our findings (It's best to find numbers that agree with each other) than we can be certain about whether anyone has made mistakes or not.

Just a tiny note: if you do math about something in squad content, ALWAYS make sure to also include numbers WITH quickness and alacrity. And a big difference is that your builds seem to be full magis while Kitty's are always at least partly harrier since in real situation (pretty much always 80%+ BD), healer's job isn't just healing but also bringing at least basic boons like might, fury, quickness and alacrity while at it if class allows it.Your builds seem to be built as pure healers which have 0 value for most squads as that kind of heal output isn't required in ANY situation unless you're trying to solo heal something with super-high damage pressure and if the pressure ever gets that bad, at least in raids the situation is so FUBAR with failed mechs that it's a wipe regardless of healing power. Since you mentioned 10-target heals, this thread isn't about feactals either, where EVERYONE wants a healbrand. Is this all math for Boneskinner as that'd be the only boss your math would have any actual realistic relevance to and even then, that's only if squad doesn't know their stuff.In all honesty, if you do squad math without quickness+alac and using full magi's, there's no gamemode it'd be really relevant at in 95%+ of cases. Even WvW uses heal tempest as boonbot.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:

And a big difference is that your builds seem to be full magis while Kitty's are always at least partly harrier since in real situation (pretty much always 80%+ BD), healer's job isn't just healing but also bringing at least basic boons like might, fury, quickness and alacrity while at it if class allows it.

Sure but you can imagine that, if you need 2 healers to heal a squad in one composition, and only 1 healer to healer in another composition, that difference is hedged by adding another person who might specialize in more damage and can supply those boons that you lack anyway.

But, this has nothing to do with those kinds of things. This is just a method to calculate how effectively you are healing with a build.

In all honesty, if you do squad math without quickness+alac and using full magi's, there's no gamemode it'd be really relevant at in 95%+ of cases.

Like I said before, you can go and do the appropriate calculation for quickness and alacrity once you've figured out the base potential. It's actually misleading to include numbers that don't exist on the build itself, since it's not guaranteed you could have quickness or alacrity. For example, you might be trying to heal in a meta event, where the distribution of builds and boons is completely uncertain, and one would like to know their healing potential there. This will calculate without any outside sources what that potential is, in all situations...after which you can then make a calculation that will give you what the potential is for particular situations.

And this thread is about healing, finding out your healing effectiveness in a fight and how to measure it...not about comparing classes and which classes are better in the game. I get that you got kind of mad that I said your scrapper build has 6 million healing potential...but don't get mad at me, this is just how math works. Like you just said, your scrapper brings additional things to the table that tempest does not, like boon application (in this case might), and you can even calculate how effectively you do that as well using this method of weighing potentials to their efficacy at which one uses them. I might even find in the frost-bow heal tempest setup, that I can move abilities around to provide boons or some other secondary utility function, since I know exactly where in my build is doing what, and can swap things on the fly because I'm aware of what's actually contributing the most to the builds main function. Likewise with scrapper, you can probably swap every utility on your bar to something else because all your utilities contribute less than 5-7% to your total healing...thus opening up options to do other things on the build...

Again this thread isn't about getting mad or comparing whose stick is bigger. This is about how to measure something, and then learn something new from being able to measure something.

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Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

First off, there are heal tempest builds which provide boons (might, fury, regeneration and protection usually) and which see use in actual content. It would make sense to use actual builds instead of theoretical.

Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

It's not a theory...its a mathematical exercise. You are comparing how much is actually possible to how much you are actually doing. it's not that complicated.

Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

Actually these aren't practical. The above is basically shooting in the dark and making guesses, using process of elimination.

This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

Here's something for you and your 3k LI to think about. How would you access the performance of Bulwark Gyro? How would you quantify or justify it's usage on the heal scrapper build?

Answer:

! Bulwark Gyro, which is basically like protection has a healing potential maximum 630,000 healing (in 3 minutes).!! Course one wouldn't know because one hasn't bothered to mathematically parse skills in order to make valid comparisons. But I'll tell you how one can figure that out. With an average health of 14,000, you will at anytime while using bulwark gyro take a maximum of 14000 damage per second before dying, which means each player effected by bulwark gyro is being hit for around 9,000 damage each second. If you are redirecting 14000 damage every second then in 5 seconds you would have redirected 70,000 damage, and over the course of 3 minutes, you would have redirected 630,000 damage.!! So think about the above information for a moment. You probably haven't the slightest idea how to even begin to look at a skill like bulwark gyro to determine whether you want to use it for a fight or not, nor a way to determine how useful of a skill it actually is. Do you know how to increase the potential healing of bulwark gyro? Nope of course you don't...but if one knew how to do this kind of analysis (using math) the answer is quite simple...increase your health pool and your healing per second. Double the health pool, means you can redirect twice the number of potential damage (from 9000 up to 18000) before dying. and make sure you can output maximum of 28,000 healing per second in order to survive the redirection. You can take this logic even further when you question how bulwark reduces damage. is the reduction effected by protection? by frost aura? by other damage reduction modifiers like toughness? Does redirection of damage even occur at all or do boss mechanics ignore it? This can all be factored in when discussing how useful it makes bulwark gyro for fights, and can effectively quadruple the effectiveness of bulwark gyro or reduce it to nothing and that's how you make educated decisions about skills you take into fights... not by looking snow crow videos trying to copy what they do without knowing why your doing it.!! Since the above is the potential, it just shows you the procedure in which you would apply certain logic for taking such a skill with you to an encounter... you should know that, if your build can't heal 28,000 healing per second, that you will die if you use bulwark gyro in a fight where your group is taking 18000 damage per second, and you use this kind of information to make decisions about how often you even utilize the potential of Bulwark Gyro, or to adjust your build accordingly so that you can justify using bulwark gyro and getting the maximum potential out of it for the lowest opportunity cost.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then? Builds scale differently with it. Firebrand gets almost nothing from quickness while scrapper gains a lot. You could use a format like Xyonons? engi spreadsheet with time spend healing/time spend casting. and factoring cd in aswell. Raw healing is still useless in this game. There are only 2 strike bosses where you even need high healing power.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

It's not a theory...its a mathematical exercise. You are comparing how much is actually possible to how much you are actually doing. it's not that complicated.

No, it is not that complicated. Hence why I was wondering why you assumed that years into this games adoption of healers stating the obvious was necessary.

So again, who is this aimed at? You are assuming that advanced players do not already do this while also tacking their assumption to the test. While players who do not will hardly draw any value from theoretical discussions (even less based on not actually run builds).

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

Actually these aren't practical. The above is basically shooting in the dark and making guesses, using process of elimination.

Only true if you assume that the builds are not founded in players understanding and knowing how to calculate skills and coefficients. Which is a far stretch to assume I'd say.

Once you factor in that players might be already looking at coefficients and formulas, those values become results of field testing.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

Here's something for you and your 3k LI to think about. How would you access the performance of Bulwark Gyro? How would you quantify or justify it's usage on the heal scrapper build?

Let me give you my answer for Bulwark gyro for WvW:It's based far more around if I or my group need personal stability provided via the tool-belt skill and the projectile denial rather than the effective barrier provided via Bulwark gyro? Why? Because in 99% of all cases healing output is not the deciding factor between success or failure.

The same applies to PvE. All healing builds are more than capable of performing the necessary healing. This is rather evident considering the most difficult content is being run with solo healers by now and if it wasn't for boon and utility requirements, some of those encounters would be run with no healer at all.

The second healer often is used rather as complimentary asset to the primary healer (often druid) based on which utility is most useful in a fight. Epidemic application and barrier from heal scourge, condi removal and heal output of heal tempest, quickness from heal firebrand, etc.

In almost no scenario is the choice of healer based on heal throughput.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

JusticeRetroHunter.7684this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...

JusticeRetroHunter.7684...but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.

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Its interesting to think about this stuff but after playtesting for many years I found pure healers to be ineffective.

I usually classify a full support as bringing heals, cleanses, boons, and some form of Protection and other group defenses (like Frost Aura), and if possible, CC and Vulnerability stacking for enemies. These are all the roles you can play without having to directly damage enemies, and when I tested it in group settings just the presence of Protection boon alone and cleanse (for high pressure fights like Mai Trin) greatly exceeded all healing multipliers except in a few rare cases like Druid CA where limited uptime make it necessary to achieve higher output.

For that reason I almost never take those kinds of builds anymore and usually focus on hybridising as much as possible, as the base healing values with ~1k of Healing Power are high enough to overheal most groups combined with their personal healing skills.

Of course there's variation by class but for the most part I think this tends to hold true.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

Okay, i don't know why we are even arguing about this in the first place because it really has nothing to do with the exercise.

A ) If you want to calculate a builds potential with alacrity and quickness, go head...there is nobody here saying that you shouldn't. So long as you are consistent in applying the calculation from one build to another build that's all the matters, so that you are maintaining a consistent comparison between things.

B ) The purpose of the exercise isn't to compare builds to one another, even though you can do this. The purpose is to calculate the potential of a build, and then compare it to the efficacy to which you are playing that build... you can be a hybrid, you can be a dps you can be whatever you want to be. This exercise is supposed to illustrate how much potential the build has (in this case to heal) and then using an efficacy to see if you are reaching that potential.

C ) This boon or no boon argument business makes no sense...if you play a build with boons that's cool I never said you can not play a build that gives out boons or other utility?...why is this all of a sudden an argument about boons or whatever? This is about calculating Healing effectiveness without an HPS meter, and in general is an exercise that can tell you more information about healing effectiveness than an HPS meter can.

D ) If you are playing a hybrid healer with multiple roles as a support, then your healing potential is going to be lower since you are diverting resources from healing, into other utility...Even then for the most part, you can transform those utilities into measurable healing potentials because you can break down almost all utility skills into components of healing, like Bulwark Gyro for example...so the argument that straight healing isn't better than boon supports, or that boon supports aren't better than healing makes no sense, and nobody made that argument to begin with.

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@Psykewne.3025 said:I'm going to be blunt and just say that this data is pretty useless, you just gave a maths lesson nobody needed. GW2 healing doesn't work this way. I'm going to bet someone insulted tempest healing to motivate you to write this.

Wow toxic much?

What motivated me to make this thread was me observing how inefficient people were using their builds in WvW...especially when I know they could be doing so much more cause im aware of the potentials of the builds they play.

What also motivated me a bit was when i asked players in pug squads if they could solo heal bosses. Many said they can't...but i know for a fact that they can but they just don't know how.

So please enlighten me, how does healing work in gw2.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

Okay, i don't know why we are even arguing about this in the first place because it really has nothing to do with the exercise.

A ) If you want to calculate a builds potential with alacrity and quickness, go head...there is nobody here saying that you shouldn't. So long as you are consistent in applying the calculation from one build to another build that's all the matters, so that you are maintaining a consistent comparison between things.Kitty's already provided comparative numbers on that earlier in this thread.C ) This boon or no boon argument business makes no sense...if you play a build with boons that's cool I never said you can not play a build that gives out boons or other utility?...why is this all of a sudden an argument about boons or whatever? This is about calculating Healing effectiveness without an HPS meter, and in general is an exercise that can tell you more information about healing effectiveness than an HPS meter can.Healing effectiveness is kinda useless info, though and like peoples are mentioning, what's the usefulness of this thread in any actual in-game scenario if you don't use the in-game builds? And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value, you'll be kicked unless squad really needs a carry (in which case you'll likely be third healer). This very thing is the reason why heal scrappers are virtually non-existent despite of high heal output and utility: they're the worst booners.D ) If you are playing a hybrid healer with multiple roles as a support, then your healing potential is going to be lower since you are diverting resources from healing, into other utility...Even then for the most part, you can transform those utilities into measurable healing potentials because you can break down almost all utility skills into components of healing, like Bulwark Gyro for example...so the argument that straight healing isn't better than boon supports, or that boon supports aren't better than healing makes no sense, and nobody made that argument to begin with.Again, healers are wanted for boons, not heals. Heals just come as bonus since upping boon duration means a lot worse dps and a second healer works as good failsafe in case primary healer isn't skilled enough/something unfortunate happens to them/they accidentally mistime heals for a moment. There's a reason why HB+druid is the preferred combo for most and that reason has nothing to do with healing output.
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@LadyKitty.6120 said:And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value,

who ever said this and why do people keep bringing this up? No one is telling anyone here to bring a pure healer over a booner...

If you don't find the exercise useful than don't use it and continue playing how you play what is so hard about that? You'll just be playing without knowing all information. That's up to you and you are perfectly fine with living in that world than so be it

This stuff isn't pulled from the vacuum either btw. This is one of the ways people from WoW community use to make Priority rotations. They're calculations are WAY more exact, but it's essentially the same principles. So continue to live in that bubble that's fine. It's just a shame really that's all.

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