My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[Pockethole.5031]

3 hours ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

I didn't read the whole thing, but OP, if you can post the profession you're using along with your build, gears, and rotation, we might be able to help you get better.

No offense, but considering that the vast majority of casual players have no trouble dealing with open world PoF enemies, you're not right about its difficulty. Others already have given very good points on why PoF isn't hard; you're just not accepting them. If you're still struggling with going through PoF, it is time for you to think outside the box. Most likely, there's something extremely wrong with your builds, gears, and/or rotation and you need to improve. Yes, the aggro range is annoying. Getting a chain of aggros and spending 30 seconds stuck in combat because you dismounted to gather for 3 seconds sucks. But if you're having trouble killing these enemies, you need to accept that you need to improve.

Once you tell us how you're playing, it'll be very quick and easy to get you up to speed. Open world PoF isn't so hard you need to take hours long classes. You can just copy a good build. 5 gold is more than enough to get some decent gears for open world. You don't need ascended gears. Learning proper rotation takes only minutes due to the simple nature of MMO's.

I'm gonna be a loser and try to ignore the things that offend me. 
Alright.
So, I have a Mirage, Renegade, Reaper (willing to give Scourge a shot, but I want to level my other Reaper because reasons),
Elementalist, then Thief and Guardian and those are work in progress. I have another Guardian who has majority of Trailblazer gear and like I've said before I look at metabattle builds. 
Since I'm just coming back I'm rusty, so yes my arguments are weak and I'm a useless person in general, there you go. Enjoy.
But once my Reaper has gotten up to snuff I was thinking of using this kind of build.
https://imgur.com/a/NAhYcCE
All I remember is that it was the easiest build I've ever ... altered or made. I will take another look at it once I get back to it. I used this build with Rune of Vampirism and Berserker/Assassin gear.
I've also got all those other builds but honestly I want to take a look at them before linking them here. And that's not happening soon, but I hope I can make a tanky weaver... should take some hints from metabattle if that's possible. 

Another thing I remember is the Dwarf rune puzzle thing area has too many mobs. But I don't know if that's relevant now. 
And yes I do look at Open World builds. 
I couldn't reply to you like this if I didn't take a sip of some special lemonade. I just can't handle. But maybe all of you are decent human beings outside of this. Or average at the very least. And that is so much better than worse. I'm just really insecure and I hate myself. I'm sorry about that.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Why would they suddenly lock out parts of the game while having the maps literally designed with those parts being available to the players in mind?

Just imagine if they locked picking specialisations. Just imagine if they locked gear/gear stats. Just imagine if they locked every WP. Just imagine if everyone had to walk instead of running. Just imagine if people couldn't use skills. All of these (and more) are being kept in mind while designing content/environment of the game. I don't know why you'd think "just imagine if they locked having mounts in maps that were designed around mounts" is a valid argument here, but if it somehow is, then I'll need an explanation.

 

And skyscale is nowhere near needed there, lets make that clear.

 

Only PoF maps were designed with mounts in mind.  They should be able to disable mounts in core, HoT, and LWS3 maps correct?

 

As for skyscale being 'nowhere near needed' I'm going to need an explanation for that.  I've posted it before but a clear example of why it is needed are bounties, with just a springer and skimmer I could barely keep up because the rest of the group can skip all terrain.  If we want to be pedantic then skyscale itself isn't needed, but you do pretty much need a flying mount (i.e. gryphon) or be very good at maneuvering terrain and accept you are going to be pretty far behind but will still get at least bronze credit.  

[mythical.6315]

Bounties do not die that quickly where you’d lose credit because you used other mounts while others used a skyscale. 

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Only PoF maps were designed with mounts in mind.  They should be able to disable mounts in core, HoT, and LWS3 maps correct?

And what are these complaints (and thread) about? 🤔  Why are you bringing up something that's not even talked about here?

Yes, they "should be able" and "are able", the question is why would they suddenly need to lock the players out of the content they unlocked. Not only that, but HoT/LW3 maps WERE played without mounts for a long time and we were ok. So I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate here and how is this relevant to anything here (but feel free to explain).

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

As for skyscale being 'nowhere near needed' I'm going to need an explanation for that.  I've posted it before but a clear example of why it is needed are bounties, with just a springer and skimmer I could barely keep up because the rest of the group can skip all terrain.  If we want to be pedantic then skyscale itself isn't needed, but you do pretty much need a flying mount (i.e. gryphon) or be very good at maneuvering terrain and accept you are going to be pretty far behind but will still get at least bronze credit.  

Pretty sure I already wrote something about that in the past, but maybe it wasn't in this thread (seeing how you're mentioning bounties here, it might have been here though). I've played without skyscale for quite some time simply because I didn't feel like going through the required steps to acquire it -I've played in bounty/meta trains (including dragonfall) and had no problem with keeping up. So when I say "it's nowhere near needed", that's exactly what I mean. It's versatile, but nowhere near needed, just use your other mounts efficiently. Hope that explains it enough.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And what are these complaints (and thread) about? 🤔  Why are you bringing up something that's not even talked about here?

 

It's brought up because the reason the mob strength and volume is 'acceptable' is because most people skip them with mounts (as they cannot be CC'd).  

 

Not sure how much more I can say on the subject.  

[Linken.6345]

12 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It's brought up because the reason the mob strength and volume is 'acceptable' is because most people skip them with mounts (as they cannot be CC'd).  

 

Not sure how much more I can say on the subject.  

Yea and since pof is what this thread is about.

Why start saying that mounts should be locked in other areas?

Should we then ask for gliding to be only useable in hot aswell?7

 

You do see that locking stuff to expansions again after people asking for them to unlock everywere is a bad idea right?

 

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's brought up because the reason the mob strength and volume is 'acceptable' is because most people skip them with mounts (as they cannot be CC'd).  

 

Not sure how much more I can say on the subject.  

Oh, no, if I was bringing up mounts, it was mainly in regards to range, volume and strength of the mobs is just ok anyways and I think I explained why I'm sure about it in the previous post.

No answer to the rest, so I guess it's all clear now.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

I'm gonna be a loser and try to ignore the things that offend me. 
Alright.
So, I have a Mirage, Renegade, Reaper (willing to give Scourge a shot, but I want to level my other Reaper because reasons),
Elementalist, then Thief and Guardian and those are work in progress. I have another Guardian who has majority of Trailblazer gear and like I've said before I look at metabattle builds. 
Since I'm just coming back I'm rusty, so yes my arguments are weak and I'm a useless person in general, there you go. Enjoy.
But once my Reaper has gotten up to snuff I was thinking of using this kind of build.
https://imgur.com/a/NAhYcCE
All I remember is that it was the easiest build I've ever ... altered or made. I will take another look at it once I get back to it. I used this build with Rune of Vampirism and Berserker/Assassin gear.
I've also got all those other builds but honestly I want to take a look at them before linking them here. And that's not happening soon, but I hope I can make a tanky weaver... should take some hints from metabattle if that's possible. 

Another thing I remember is the Dwarf rune puzzle thing area has too many mobs. But I don't know if that's relevant now. 
And yes I do look at Open World builds. 
I couldn't reply to you like this if I didn't take a sip of some special lemonade. I just can't handle. But maybe all of you are decent human beings outside of this. Or average at the very least. And that is so much better than worse. I'm just really insecure and I hate myself. I'm sorry about that.

The build I used to use for easy mode open world reaper-ing is very similar, in terms of traits. You can find the whole thing here. Just a note on a few of my choices (many of which are very replaceable).

Warhorn: forward-facing aoe daze can stop packs of mobs from spamming stuff in your face, and warhorn 5 is a multi-hit lifesteal that doesn't require any setup and can burn off blind on you while still doing damage. Remember you'll also be getting vampiric aura steals on those  hits as well.

Greatword: a great weapon in general. Greatsword 4 in particular is an amazing survival tool in the open world, a 2s pulsing blind that grows in size, does damage, and provides a dark field for you to get some lifesteal combo potential with greatsword 2. Greatword 5 of course is an excellent mob placement tool, and greatsword 3 is an excellent life force builder, vulnerability application, and hits decently hard. Remember that you can float around a bit while casting greatsword 2, so use that to either land more hits or avoid aoes that might have begun casting on you just after you started the attack animation.

Rune of Divinity: a very boring choice, but I took it mainly to get a bit more offense and defense at the same time. if you're having survival issues I'd recommend avoiding benefit-on-kill runes in general. That said, Vampiric runes work just fine on this build too, as those touch the 2 things I cared about on the build: power and vitality.

All Shout utilites: probably the single most questionable aspect of my build here (and one that I almost immediately moved away from as I got better at killing things). Low cooldowns, lifesteal, and some nice built-in effects make an all-shouts build viable, but far from ideal imo. 'Rise" is nice for damage reduction and putting more friendly bodies on the field, but I replaced it very quickly with Signet of Spite (for the passive power boost).

Reaper's Onslaught instead of Blighter's Boon: this is the big one, as all the above tends to be dwarfed by the sheer destructive power of reaper shroud. Reaper's onslaught is why just spamming reaper autoattacks can be so effective. You consume less life force but hit extremely hard and fast, giving you more options in general. Of course the quickness you get from this trait also makes it such that you can always do a combo like shroud 3 (without popping the fear part of it) > 5 > 4 for good area damage as well.

My current open world build uses scholar runes and a well, but I still have 3 shouts on my bar (heal, stunbreak, and elite), but I play it similarly and murder everything that dares challenge my stroll through the desert.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea and since pof is what this thread is about.

Why start saying that mounts should be locked in other areas?

Should we then ask for gliding to be only useable in hot aswell?7

 

You do see that locking stuff to expansions again after people asking for them to unlock everywere is a bad idea right?

 

 

Not sure how to explain my point any clearer than the reason PoF mobs are the way they are is because mounts were meant to bypass most of the map.  Nineteen pages later tells us that probably wasn't the best idea, because when you do get off the mount to explore you are oftentimes almost immediately overwhelmed by a bunch of nonsense.

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Oh, no, if I was bringing up mounts, it was mainly in regards to range, volume and strength of the mobs is just ok anyways and I think I explained why I'm sure about it in the previous post.

No answer to the rest, so I guess it's all clear now.

 

I didn't answer the rest because skyscale / flying mounts are superior to all others no matter how well you use the other mounts.  You can parkour up most of the terrain on foot and use gliding but that doesn't mean anyone wants to willingly do that.  

 

In short, in my opinion, I hope EoD is a lot more like core map design and not HoT or PoF as both (again in my opinion) suffered because of gimmicks (i.e. mounts / gliding).  They suffered because these mechanics weren't used judiciously but rather built into practically every aspect of the map design, which just gets annoying / boring after the first or second time you run through the area.

 

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I didn't answer the rest because skyscale / flying mounts are superior to all others no matter how well you use the other mounts.  You can parkour up most of the terrain on foot and use gliding but that doesn't mean anyone wants to willingly do that.  

No, as I said I had no problems while not having skyscale, meanwhile that very obviously wouldn't be the case while having no mounts. Your claim is not only some poor attempt at strawman, but it's just false. Again, skyscale convenient due to being most versatile, but nowhere near needed, just use your other mounts efficiently.

Quote

In short, in my opinion, I hope EoD is a lot more like core map design and not HoT or PoF as both (again in my opinion) suffered because of gimmicks (i.e. mounts / gliding).  They suffered because these mechanics weren't used judiciously but rather built into practically every aspect of the map design, which just gets annoying / boring after the first or second time you run through the area.

I, on the other hand, hope the difficulty level won't go down to core. With time, people become better at things they do, suddenly going backwards would make no sense in my eyes. We've played HoT/LW3 maps without mounts, so I still don't know who even tried making any arguments about those being in the current state "due to mounts". That just seems completely false.

I also find it interesting that you think new mechanics introduced in expansions are getting boring fast, but core experience somehow didn't.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, as I said I had no problems while not having skyscale, meanwhile that very obviously wouldn't be the case while having no mounts. Your claim is not only some poor attempt at strawman, but it's just false. Again, skyscale convenient due to being most versatile, but nowhere near needed, just use your other mounts efficiently.

 

Right, but we have to go back to my original point:

 

23 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yeah, it's a no win.  Mounts are both the problem and the solution here--a problem because maps must be tailored with them in mind, and a solution because without them we would have quit long ago due to bad map design. 

 

Skyscale is just a broken mount, but mounts in general are why they can make the PoF mob design lazy, just like gliding was the reason they could make HoT maps a nightmare to navigate.  

 

As you pointed out, without mounts there would be major problems navigating anything in the current game state.  Yes, we did HoT and LWS3 without them, and you can enter a map right now and find someone saying 'don't know how you did these maps without mounts'.  This means the general player would just quit if we went back to no mounts.  That doesn't say 'good map design' to me.  

 

What I'm saying is, if you make mounts able to be CC'd or able to be dismounted easier by mobs then there would be a lot more complaints on the forums like this very topic.  Ignoring how easy mode mounts make the game is ignoring that the game is actually difficult if you ever dismount and try running around.  

 

I'm all for making mobs more difficult by the way, I think HoT did handle this well.  For the first time enemies had breakbars and things that you needed to be aware of, and that's fine.  My problems fully lie in whatever map designer got hopped up on 'go go' juice and made abominations like Tangled Depths.  

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Right, but we have to go back to my original point:

 

 

Skyscale is just a broken mount, but mounts in general are why they can make the PoF mob design lazy, just like gliding was the reason they could make HoT maps a nightmare to navigate.  

 

As you pointed out, without mounts there would be major problems navigating anything in the current game state.  Yes, we did HoT and LWS3 without them, and you can enter a map right now and find someone saying 'don't know how you did these maps without mounts'.  This means the general player would just quit if we went back to no mounts.  That doesn't say 'good map design' to me.  

"As you pointed out, without mounts there would be major problems navigating anything in the current game state."?

When did I say that? If it's true, it's just about PoF/post PoF maps that were designed with mounts in minds. Naturally, because every player going through PoF unlocks mounts, everyone plays with them. Not designing those maps with mounts in mind wouldn't make sense. "someone saying they don't know how we did it before mounts" is irrelevant to anything I said. They don't need to imagine how it was without mounts, because they can have mounts. We don't need to imagine how it was without mounts, because we know how it was and it was perfectly fine -as opposed to what you're trying to claim I said.

And again, again -skyscale is just the most convenient. We can keep up with the trains by correctly using the rest of the mounts. I know because I was doing it, so it shouldn't surprise you that you probably won't be able to convince me otherwise, right? Literally because I was playing without the skyscale you claim is needed.

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What I'm saying is, if you make mounts able to be CC'd or able to be dismounted easier by mobs then there would be a lot more complaints on the forums like this very topic.  Ignoring how easy mode mounts make the game is ignoring that the game is actually difficult if you ever dismount and try running around.  

It might surprise you, but as I (and many others) already stated many times, I do dismount in those maps and didn't have any widespread problems with "being held in combat against my will" and whatnot. Due to that, I can only assume that in majority of those cases, it's about the player not adjusting their playstyle accordingly to the environment/enemies/their goals.

tbh I'm missing the point (which doesn't mean there isn't one, I just don't see it) of the hypotheticals like "if you made them easier to cc". How about we'll stick to talking about facts instead of making imaginary scenarios of nerfing what isn't and almost certainly won't be nerfed?

19 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I'm all for making mobs more difficult by the way, I think HoT did handle this well.  For the first time enemies had breakbars and things that you needed to be aware of, and that's fine.  My problems fully lie in whatever map designer got hopped up on 'go go' juice and made abominations like Tangled Depths.  

I already talked about TD, not sure if in this thread. I think it's well designed and does what an actual jungle map called "tangled depths" should do. It seems convoluted and dangerous for newcommers, but then you learn to navigate it and it is a good map. And yes, without the mounts, but obviously mounts have the speed convenience/advantage so why suddenly not keep using them.

[BlueJin.4127]

9 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

I'm gonna be a loser and try to ignore the things that offend me. 
Alright.
So, I have a Mirage, Renegade, Reaper (willing to give Scourge a shot, but I want to level my other Reaper because reasons),
Elementalist, then Thief and Guardian and those are work in progress. I have another Guardian who has majority of Trailblazer gear and like I've said before I look at metabattle builds. 
Since I'm just coming back I'm rusty, so yes my arguments are weak and I'm a useless person in general, there you go. Enjoy.
But once my Reaper has gotten up to snuff I was thinking of using this kind of build.
https://imgur.com/a/NAhYcCE
All I remember is that it was the easiest build I've ever ... altered or made. I will take another look at it once I get back to it. I used this build with Rune of Vampirism and Berserker/Assassin gear.
I've also got all those other builds but honestly I want to take a look at them before linking them here. And that's not happening soon, but I hope I can make a tanky weaver... should take some hints from metabattle if that's possible. 

Another thing I remember is the Dwarf rune puzzle thing area has too many mobs. But I don't know if that's relevant now. 
And yes I do look at Open World builds. 
I couldn't reply to you like this if I didn't take a sip of some special lemonade. I just can't handle. But maybe all of you are decent human beings outside of this. Or average at the very least. And that is so much better than worse. I'm just really insecure and I hate myself. I'm sorry about that.

You’re not a loser. Nobody is always good at everything from beginning to end. There’s nothing wrong with not being good at something. Ignore the trolls and don’t let them get to you.

Reaper is one of my favorites. Below is the build I like to use on my Reaper for open world. I like to round up as many enemies as possible, so I go for a more AOE and defense oriented build than most players.

[&DQg1KjIlIjXBEsESdQF1AQ8TDxOBAIEAlQCVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

You don't have to switch out Blood Magic for Soul Reaping, but it doesn't hurt to try both and see what you prefer.

Greatsword does great damage in melee and should be your main weapon. Skill 2 does great damage and if you hit a target below 50%, it recharges itself. Against regular enemies, raptor engage, skill 2, then auto attack are enough to outright kill them. Against veterans (or multiple regular enemies), I like to use skill 4 for some defense, skill 3 to cast vulnerability, skill 2, Well of Suffering, then auto attack. The 3rd hit of melee auto attacks (skill 1) does great damage so you should never interrupt your auto attack until the 3rd hit comes out.

For range, I switch to axe/dagger (or focus). This ranged set up does really low damage so I don't recommend using this for general play. Only switch to ranged when you need the range. For the most part, it's best to stick with the greatsword for damage.

When you're in Reaper's Shroud, you basically get a shield so it protects you from damage quite well. You can save Reaper's Shroud for defense if you like. If you don't think you'll need it for defense, engage, enter Reaper's Shroud right away, skill 3 for stability (so you don't get easily interrupted), then skill 4 for major damage. Reaper’s Shroud skill 4 murders stuff.

For defense, Rise gives you more minions if there are more enemies nearby, so it's another good defensive skill when you get mobbed. Flesh Golem also does damage and holds some aggro for added defense. If all your defensive skills are on cooldown and you're low on health, I recommend switching to a ranged weapon and getting some distance. Let your minions hold aggro until your defensive skills are recharged. When you're back in good health, switch back to greatsword and get back in to the fight.

For gears, I prefer Marauder. They give good DPS and some HP, so it's better for players who don't like to go glass cannon. If Marauder is too expensive, a combination of mostly Berserker gears and some Soldier gears is a solid alternative, and cheaper.

For sigils, Force and Strength are good and cheap. For runes, Strength is also good and cheap. Strength sigils and runes compliment each other well. You can shell out more gold for better sigils and runes.

Try things out and let us know how it goes. If you’re still having trouble, the more details you can give us, the more we can help. Feel free to ask for help in-game, too, though tomorrow is LWS4 E2 day, so players may be busy.

I’ll try to post my Revenant stuff tomorrow.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"As you pointed out, without mounts there would be major problems navigating anything in the current game state."?

When did I say that? If it's true, it's just about PoF/post PoF maps that were designed with mounts in minds. Naturally, because every player going through PoF unlocks mounts, everyone plays with them. Not designing those maps with mounts in mind wouldn't make sense. "someone saying they don't know how we did it before mounts" is irrelevant to anything I said. They don't need to imagine how it was without mounts, because they can have mounts. We don't need to imagine how it was without mounts, because we know how it was and it was perfectly fine -as opposed to what you're trying to claim I said.

And again, again -skyscale is just the most convenient. We can keep up with the trains by correctly using the rest of the mounts. I know because I was doing it, so it shouldn't surprise you that you probably won't be able to convince me otherwise, right? Literally because I was playing without the skyscale you claim is needed.

It might surprise you, but as I (and many others) already stated many times, I do dismount in those maps and didn't have any widespread problems with "being held in combat against my will" and whatnot. Due to that, I can only assume that in majority of those cases, it's about the player not adjusting their playstyle accordingly to the environment/enemies/their goals.

tbh I'm missing the point (which doesn't mean there isn't one, I just don't see it) of the hypotheticals like "if you made them easier to cc". How about we'll stick to talking about facts instead of making imaginary scenarios of nerfing what isn't and almost certainly won't be nerfed?

I already talked about TD, not sure if in this thread. I think it's well designed and does what an actual jungle map called "tangled depths" should do. It seems convoluted and dangerous for newcommers, but then you learn to navigate it and it is a good map. And yes, without the mounts, but obviously mounts have the speed convenience/advantage so why suddenly not keep using them.

You may want to think about what this means:

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, as I said I had no problems while not having skyscale, meanwhile that very obviously wouldn't be the case while having no mounts.

 

Because as I read it, you would have problems if there were no mounts.  Unless 'very obviously wouldn't be the case' means something different that I'm not catching.  

 

You may also want to consider what you think is good or bad is probably only applicable to you.  A going on twenty page thread does not say 'everything is fine' in regards to the PoF maps, and you are the first person I've talked to (out of maybe a hundred) that things TD is 'well designed'.  I could probably bet money on going in the map right now and asking who hates it and coming back with at least 5-10 'yes' responses in short order.  

[yann.1946]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You may also want to consider what you think is good or bad is probably only applicable to you.  A going on twenty page thread does not say 'everything is fine' in regards to the PoF maps, and you are the first person I've talked to (out of maybe a hundred) that things TD is 'well designed'.  I could probably bet money on going in the map right now and asking who hates it and coming back with at least 5-10 'yes' responses in short order.  

I also think its well designed, and we had a tread a while earlier where this topic got brought up.

TBH the fact so many people dislike it is probably proof about how well designed it is. It encapsulates those emotions of being lost in the jungle pretty well.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

It seems to me that both HoT and PoF were made with the added mobility (gliding and mounts) in mind. That's to say HoT with gliding in mind and PoF with mounts in mind.

 

Since it takes some time to get all the gliding masteries unlocked and also in PoF it takes time to get all the mounts and their masteries unlocked, this means that when you go there initially without gliding/mounts the maps suck majorly. Particularly for casual players. By the time you get all those masteries unlocked you can then the maps become a lot easier to navigate.

 

But the first impressions of a map do stick and this is where the problem lies I think. To create a map where mobs exist with extended aggro range to because of gliding and mounts makes for a very rough playthrough the first time and well you do need to get off your mounts when you reached your destination. And also the mobs that are particularly egregious like sand lions, smokescales, etc. (blind, blind, blind, blind) that you have to dodge away from and then you aggro another group etc. ...it's just really annoying. And funnily enough annoying doesn't mean the same thing as having fun...at least not to me. 🤷‍♂️

[Jukhy.2431]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I also think its well designed, and we had a tread a while earlier where this topic got brought up.

TBH the fact so many people dislike it is probably proof about how well designed it is. It encapsulates those emotions of being lost in the jungle pretty well.

Well said. I also think that Tangled Depths is very well designed map, one of the most in-depth and best designed maps in the game. Yes I had trouble traversing it before mounts but that doesn't make it bad design. More of a challenge really, which I enjoyed especially since at that point I had gone thru two easier jungle maps.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I also think its well designed, and we had a tread a while earlier where this topic got brought up.

TBH the fact so many people dislike it is probably proof about how well designed it is. It encapsulates those emotions of being lost in the jungle pretty well.

 

 

In regards to TD, the split is pretty easy to follow:

- players who go there and spend 10 minutes on the map without any interest in understanding it will hate it forever

- players who get pat the point of understanding the map eventually see how well it is designed and often call it one of the best designed maps in the game

 

Now not every player approaches video games with a mindset of "I want to get good at this game and if necessary learn new things". That is likely reflects a large majority of the player base.

 

Meanwhile PoF maps are as bland and boring as maps come. Large open areas on a horizontal plane with near no verticality. Amazing for simpletons, beyond boring for any player who enjoys anything beyond moving from point A to B in a strait line constantly. Again, understandable that players with less time or engagement enjoy these more because their interactions with the game remain limited at best.

 

As to the topic at hand and mob agro range, there are some choke points on PoF maps, often intentionally designed that way, which can cause issues for not attentive players. This is intended, given the PoF maps outside of those points are rather barren, deserted and devoid of any NPCs. That too is intended to mirror how a desert might look, with pockets of activity.

 

As to the subject of difficulty, we are in 2021. There are numerous guides and builds out there which make characters near unkillable (in some cases literally unkillable) for nearly every class (going to again shill for Lord Hizen's builds on youtube with the plea for people to actually WATCH and READ his explanations if unable to understand the build synergies). In some cases, for example condi renegade with torment runes and viper or trailblazer gear, you literally have to press only 1 button (keep Mallyx elite running) and 95% of this games open world content will do nothing to you (and if you actually know which skills provide torment and are able to actually dodge, there is nothing which should kill you).

 

But we have been down this road so often. Some players kill legendary creatures solo left and right, others pretend as though pressing more than 2 buttons per minute is a big deal. Let's see what EoD brings.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Gehenna.3625]

18 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

In regards to TD, the split is pretty easy to follow:

- players who go there and spend 10 minutes on the map without any interest in understanding it will hate it forever

- players who get pat the point of understanding the map eventually see how well it is designed and often call it one of the best designed maps in the game

 I do have to object to this division for a couple of reasons:

 

People who are in the first category you propose don't spend just 10 mins. on that map and your general tone in describing this group is very condescending. They tend to go there for map completion and more importantly the story. Neither of which can be done in under 10 mins. So I would say a couple of hours rather than 10 mins. I know you don't mean 10 mins. literally but it doesn't acknowledge what they are up against. If it was only 10 mins. they wouldn't have such a problem with it after all, but a couple of hours does acknowledge this and it also is not enough time to learn the ins and outs of TD. For me the mistake was that this map is also used to deliver casual content (story and map completion).

 

Secondly, although I'm sure that you're not saying that every player fits in those two categories, two more groups should be considered. The group that comes there for doing the main meta for which you just need one waypoint to access the 4 lanes and doesn't do anything else because of the difficulty of the map. And another group that has figured out how the map works or most of it but still doesn't like it. That's the group I'm in incidentally.

 

I tend to have a problem in general with 2 groups because it's very black and white and lacks the necessary nuance. It also creates two camps that are pitted against each other in these forums and anyone that doesn't fit into one of these groups will be put into one of the two or both just to fit the two camp narrative. It's not helpful to the conversation and creates an us vs them situation.

 

That's my view on this.

[Dante.1763]

39 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

In regards to TD, the split is pretty easy to follow:

- players who go there and spend 10 minutes on the map without any interest in understanding it will hate it forever

- players who get pat the point of understanding the map eventually see how well it is designed and often call it one of the best designed maps in the game

 

Now not every player approaches video games with a mindset of "I want to get good at this game and if necessary learn new things". That is likely reflects a large majority of the player base.

 

Meanwhile PoF maps are as bland and boring as maps come. Large open areas on a horizontal plane with near no verticality. Amazing for simpletons, beyond boring for any player who enjoys anything beyond moving from point A to B in a strait line constantly. Again, understandable that players with less time or engagement enjoy these more because their interactions with the game remain limited at best.

 

As to the topic at hand and mob agro range, there are some choke points on PoF maps, often intentionally designed that way, which can cause issues for not attentive players. This is intended, given the PoF maps outside of those points are rather barren, deserted and devoid of any NPCs. That too is intended to mirror how a desert might look, with pockets of activity.

 

As to the subject of difficulty, we are in 2021. There are numerous guides and builds out there which make characters near unkillable (in some cases literally unkillable) for nearly every class (going to again shill for Lord Hizen's builds on youtube with the plea for people to actually WATCH and READ his explanations if unable to understand the build synergies). In some cases, for example condi renegade with torment runes and viper or trailblazer gear, you literally have to press only 1 button (keep Mallyx elite running) and 95% of this games open world content will do nothing to you (and if you actually know which skills provide torment and are able to actually dodge, there is nothing which should kill you).

 

But we have been down this road so often. Some players kill legendary creatures solo left and right, others pretend as though pressing more than 2 buttons per minute is a big deal. Let's see what EoD brings.

You need to add a third split there at a minimum.

"Those who understand why it was designed the way it was, can find there way around the map, who still hate it, and think its badly designed."

Things arent as clear cut as you make it out to be and as above mentioned the condencending tone that your post seems to have doesnt help either.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Cyninja.2954]

@Gehenna.3625

@Dante.1763

 

Yes, I was using hyperbole, as seems to be common on these forums, to make a point.

 

Obviously there is a multitude of reasons why players might dislike something, in this case a map or more relating to the topic, monster difficulty. 

 

What I was getting at was: the more experienced players get in overcoming the issue, the more their opinion on this can shift. I'd guess a far larger fraction of players dislike TD on map entry and the first few hours, especially when considering masteries, versus the opposite later on (both because players start enjoying the map and those which do not stay away), than later on. At which point they can, but don't havr to, appreciate the maps design.

 

My "condescending tone" just might be because I find it tiresome that some players first reaction to any problem they have is to ask for it to be made easier (aka the go-to demand for nerfs), especially given the vast amount of resources available. So yes, I hold little respect for players of such low skill level  (player skill, not personal respect) or following such an approach. I guess that found it's way into my post, ups. 🤷‍♂️

Edited August 31, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Gehenna.3625]

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What I was getting at was: the more experienced players get in overcoming the issue, the more their opinion on this can shift. I'd guess a far larger fraction of players dislike TD on map entry and the first few hours, especially when considering masteries, versus the opposite later on (both because players start enjoying the map and those which do not stay away), than later on. At which point they can, but don't havr to, appreciate the maps design.

Thanks for this, that makes a whole lot more sense to me 🙂

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You may want to think about what this means:

 

 

Because as I read it, you would have problems if there were no mounts.  Unless 'very obviously wouldn't be the case' means something different that I'm not catching.  

Maybe you'd understand it a little better if you stopped dodging what I actually wrote, while picking a single sentence out of context and interpret it differently than what it means within the context of the whole post.

It was a direct response to your weird strawman: "I didn't answer the rest because skyscale / flying mounts are superior to all others no matter how well you use the other mounts.  You can parkour up most of the terrain on foot and use gliding but that doesn't mean anyone wants to willingly do that. " 

You were still answering/compering skyscale to other mounts (as was I, that's pretty much all this comment chain was/is), so by that sentence, all I've meant is that you can keep up with skyscale by using other mounts efficiently, while you wouldn't be able to keep up with skyscale without "those other mounts".

And btw, misinterpretation (because you did misinterpret it, as explained above) aside, did you really just tried to use my post that responded to your false claim about what I said to justify that earlier false claim you've made or am I missing what exactly you're responding to here?

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You may also want to consider what you think is good or bad is probably only applicable to you. 

Sure -and so do you, OP and everyone else. I'm not sure what this is supposed to be answering to and why you thought this is important to include it in response to me while not saying it to anyone else sharing their opinions here?

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

A going on twenty page thread does not say 'everything is fine' in regards to the PoF maps, and you are the first person I've talked to (out of maybe a hundred) that things TD is 'well designed'.  I could probably bet money on going in the map right now and asking who hates it and coming back with at least 5-10 'yes' responses in short order.  

No worries, I can ask "who likes it" and I'll "come back with a few responses" just like you. Would that make it any less of a personal opinion of yours or those people? Would what you've just said ("You may also want to consider what you think is good or bad is probably only applicable to you.") suddenly not apply, so that's somehow supposed to be a strong argument against anything I said? Maybe you should focus on actually responding to what I write instead of dodging vast majority of it, while reverting to strawman arguments and claims that boil down to "it's bad design because some people dislike it".

[nosleepdemon.1368]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 PM, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

PoF Maps only problem is mob density. In some places, there is ridiculous overlap. The Djinn HP in Crystal Oasis comes to mind; a Hydra, a couple of sand sharks and I think 2 sand lions. And if you're particularly unlucky, a Forged Patrol. Fortunately, it's far more tolerable than Pre-Nerf Orr.

Shudders. For those who weren't here before Orr was nerfed; mob density was far higher and every mob, it's undead mother, and undead pet cat had an entire bar packed with CC skills. So trying to navigate Orr was like playing a game of Ping Pong, only your character was the ball. 

PoF Maps aren't nearly as annoying, and I feel like mob difficulty is less than HoT maps, but harder than Core; so just right.

Pre-nerf Orr was a proper end game zone. It was not a place you could zoom zoom between gathering nodes and mash your keyboard when something *dared* to aggro on you. Some people actually liked the idea that the final zone in the game was actually a place of great danger. I know, I know, it's dreadfully tiring to have to watch your footing, aggro and skill management but that's honestly what Guild Wars 2 was originally about. Did you know that in beta, mobs actually avoided some of your attacks? Shocking isn't it?

 

I assure you that Orr was actually very much doable solo, with yellows and greens. You just had to pay attention instead of holding w and watching Netfl~ the TV.

[Rukia.4802]

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, as I said I had no problems while not having skyscale, meanwhile that very obviously wouldn't be the case while having no mounts. Your claim is not only some poor attempt at strawman, but it's just false. Again, skyscale convenient due to being most versatile, but nowhere near needed, just use your other mounts efficiently.

I, on the other hand, hope the difficulty level won't go down to core. With time, people become better at things they do, suddenly going backwards would make no sense in my eyes. We've played HoT/LW3 maps without mounts, so I still don't know who even tried making any arguments about those being in the current state "due to mounts". That just seems completely false.

I also find it interesting that you think new mechanics introduced in expansions are getting boring fast, but core experience somehow didn't.

Difficulty = annoyance in open world

Was nothing difficult about HoT, any newb could do it, point is it was frustrating & tedious just to travel through the maps with random one shots. That is arbitrary difficulty. Its easier now with mounts, PoF has same issue with mob density, an annoyance nothing more. Please show me where the game is actually difficult in open world , outside of some travel hinderances I've never been challenged in open world unless you count pre-power creep Liadri. I been playing since prelaunch and even I hated HoT, it was so easy with daredevil compared to other classes and it was still AWFUL to traverse, like who the hell wants to play that crap when they get off work. Open world should be faceroll I will get real challenge in instanced content. Pve has more snares and CC than pvp does its actually a joke and clearly intended to waste your time.