Relatively Recent Nerfs to Mesmer PvE!

[dontlook.1823]

So, the Mesmer has changed a lot over the years.

Before they split changes, I think Mesmer took ONE of the heaviest hit out of all classes.

Mirage:Big Axe nerfs. There was a bug that had axes hitting for 1 extra axe. Instead of fixing this mechanic, they actually nerfed a lot of things.They changed the axe 3 to torment. it was good for a while, people got used to it. You could stack a bunch of torment and they weren't completely unplayable.Then they introduced the shatter build which was good for a while but took another non-split change hit.Confusion damage used to have really good tick damage it was like another bleeding sustained damage source. The activation hit was much more powerful and Mesmers were, therefore, a really strong condition choice.They are good for raid bosses but pretty obsolete in other game modes. Except for in Fractal 100 where they still are outclassed by Firebrands, Condi Deadeyes, and others. The most I burst for was 43k and then I dip to 29k - 30k while firebrands are hitting for a strong 60k and maintaining 34-38k throughout the fight with literally 1 condition and half the work.

Chrono (my personal favourite.):They had very many major changes for the better. The whole reworking of the phantasm system was really good for an active and fun playstyle.It took a lot of skill changes to make this playstyle viable. But they ended up being able to do it.Mesmer is technically in "good shape" with a benchmark of 42k. BUT it's highly conditional with very few classes pumping out slow and it can be easily outplayed due to its lack of reliable burst like some other classes have in their kit. It is really strong for long sustained fights. But bosses with short phases, it lacks behind a lot not to mention you don't really have access to slow in certain game modes unless you coordinate well with another Mesmer or a condition rev. In fractals is where their power build suffers the most. Because other builds like Soulbeast, Holo, and Reapers, and even firebrand (:O) have such great burst (and that's really all you need in fractals) they are very easily outclassed with the exception of how many skips they can perform. Not saying we should nerf those classes

So really all Mirage needs is a change to confusion or more for better burst. And all Chrono needs is access to a little bit more burst so that they can compete.

Really that's all. For the most part, they are very well balanced.Caveat:I'm actually going to go ahead and state that asking for more confusion for Mirage and burst for Chrono is honestly asking for too much because if you know what you're doing you're actually in good shape with these builds. I didn't want to make this post to flame the balance team or Anet. Really it's tough to say, "Hey, we need to be viable in every game mode!" Also, there seems to be a pattern that anet follows with the release of new specs. They nerf the old elites to make the new ones popular. This shouldn't be the case because their overarching claim is that the game is horizontal progression so things shouldn't be getting, "Better and Better" it should just be in line with what else they released in the game. I mean let's, for instance, take the Scrapper. That's been out for years now and I can really say confidently that I've never teamed with one in PvE content (save for the other night where I did recs with a scrapper). IDK what that elite spec is supposed to do. To be fair though I know they used to be really strong in the WvW/PvP scene. But they also took a number of hits recently.

Ultimately, WHERE IS THAT BALANCE PATCH? IT has been months and those are my favourite notes to read.

[dontlook.1823]

! refer to OP

[Infusion.7149]

That "42k" benchmark is with Danger Time. Realistically when you take away that multiplier (even without removing the crit chance improvement) it would be more akin to 36K and that's assuming no clones die. Shatters in general make a power mesmer function similar to a burn build in terms of ramp.

As far as scrappers, it's typically used for healing in WVW as well as for the bulk condi cleanses and superspeed. I use it occasionally to help people out with -80% healing CMs for ad infinitum as barrier doesn't count as healing.

[Veprovina.4876]

You're glancing over so many other problems that mesmers have that i don't think you presented your argument fairly.

For starters, there's also WvW and PvP, and you can't look at a class based on only bosses where you're in group content and can expect 100% boon uptime (most of which you as a support class aren't responsible for). There's tons of unreliable skills that mesmers have, and it only shows how unreliable and underperforming they are in WvW, or when not under the effects of boons (since you can't expect to have boons in WvW due to boonstrip). You can't balance a class based on boss performance. If a class is only good against bosses but has problems everywhere else it's not in a good place. Mirage lost a dodge and you're calling that a good place? Chrono has no value as a support and can be switched for a Firebrand or alacrev and miss nothing. Every other class except maybe warriors and thieves outheals a chrono... The traits have too many caveats and tradeoffs making builds very limited compared to what everyone else has to offer...

Mesmer is not in a good place. Not by a long shot.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Veprovina.4876I think OP is somewhat aware of the problems in WvW/PvP, but the title of this thread and context of the original post specifically mentions PvE where dps mesmer (so yes you could say OP forgot about the boon/support side of things) does seem to be in a very salvageable state and IMO has been for a while, only that Anet seemingly can’t be bothered to make the changes required to pull PvE dps mesmer from ‘ok’ to ‘good’.

(PvE) Mirage’s problems are basically defined by how confusion works. It is the sole reason why it is good on ~3 raid bosses and on some other weird interactions, and ‘bad’ at everything else.

(PvE) Chrono’s problems I have outlined many times already. Apart from questionable balancing factors such as slow uptime and being able to pull of a csplit uninterrupted, its setup is catered towards longer fights (i.e. actually having to cast things twice instead of being a 100% straight up dmg increase). This is why I keep commenting about how the next espec (hopefully), or even core, would fare better in terms of burst. The next espec is fair game provided they don’t destroy Domi and Duel, whereas core is simply (and only?!) being held back by Illu, whose power bonuses seem neglected and is dwarfed by Domi/Duel/Chrono. Chrono itself needs a more accessible csplit (105s is far too high).

I’m not expecting any significant changes until pre release patch and post expac release patch however, where I would actually be surprised if things manage to remain intact/not nerfed after having to accomodate a new espec.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:@"Veprovina.4876"I think OP is somewhat aware of the problems in WvW/PvP, but the title of this thread and context of the original post specifically mentions PvE where dps mesmer (so yes you could say OP forgot about the boon/support side of things) does seem to be in a very salvageable state and IMO has been for a while, only that Anet seemingly can’t be bothered to make the changes required to pull PvE dps mesmer from ‘ok’ to ‘good’.

(PvE) Mirage’s problems are basically defined by how confusion works. It is the sole reason why it is good on ~3 raid bosses and on some other weird interactions, and ‘bad’ at everything else.

(PvE) Chrono’s problems I have outlined many times already. Apart from questionable balancing factors such as slow uptime and being able to pull of a csplit uninterrupted, its setup is catered towards longer fights (i.e. actually having to cast things twice instead of being a 100% straight up dmg increase). This is why I keep commenting about how the next espec (hopefully), or even core, would fare better in terms of burst. The next espec is fair game provided they don’t destroy Domi and Duel, whereas core is simply (and only?!) being held back by Illu, whose power bonuses seem neglected and is dwarfed by Domi/Duel/Chrono. Chrono itself needs a more accessible csplit (105s is far too high).

I’m not expecting any significant changes until pre release patch and post expac release patch however, where I would actually be surprised if things manage to remain intact/not nerfed after having to accomodate a new espec.

If it's just a PvE side, then yes, it's kind of "ok" but not really. DPS mesmer is apparently good, but support side is severely lacking. I guess they can salvage it, but you can't balance skills based on one mode, espeically if they start changing traits - those affect both modes. Mesmers problems go way deeper than just skill and trait numbers anyway. So even if they adjust something to make mesmers "good for bosses" it wouldn't solve anything. Like you said, confusion for instance, numerous unreliable skills and tons of bugs. Even the elite skill and Csplit is on a too long cooldown, i agree with you there - but i'd add that staff 5 has a needlesly long cooldown as well compared to what it offers. Grav well and csplit is actually shorter on WvW - and it feels better to use there. Too bad clones never survive!

We'll see what the future holds i guess. I'm just hoping they get to fixing mesmers sooner rather than later, but i'll settle for no more nerfs until the xpac comes in the meantime.

[Infusion.7149]

Huh, for PVE if you are talking about a raid environment or even a strike environment then chrono is rather dominant wherever boon thief or condi quickness firebrand isn't used.

In fractals it's slightly different because burst takes precedent and the shatters function more like burning. Let's not forget chrono + druid used to be a thing to the point that people called for it to be nerfed into the ground. Only recently were cloneless shatters restored.

July 7, 2020 patch: Chronomancer shatter skills can now be activated without clones, and the shatter effect also occurs at the mesmer's location.

The developer notes read:

The main change for mesmers in this update is the restoration of self-shattering for chronomancers. This change was originally made to emphasize the difference between chronomancer shatter skills and core mesmer shatter skills, but this ended up making them more difficult to use. Instead, we are focusing more on the differences in functionality between chronomancer and core mesmer shatter skills rather than the cost to activate them. Additionally, we are making a few small changes to mirage skills to improve their usability.

Likewise in the same patch, Seize the Moment : This trait has been reworked. It now counts the mesmer as a clone. Reduced quickness gained per clone in PvE from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Reduced quickness gained per clone in PvP and WvW from 1 second to 0.75 seconds.

[dontlook.1823]

Thanks for the feedback guys, really means a lot that you took the time to consider my opinion.

To reiterate my point of the argument is for PvE. I know they are suffering in the WvW/PvP scene and not as dominant. But for a while, both Epecs were top tier. So, naturally, they're going to take a lot of hits. And of course the big Slow debacle. The benchmark hits 42k+ with slow. That is one of the main points I touch on and without slow (so in most cases) it has a fairly average DPS benchmark.

Thanks again!

[Leonidrex.5649]

as a someone that often does fractals on power chrono... it has loads of issues. all the burst damage is spread over REALLY long time due chronophantasma, and all the aoe is not fully reliable since its in the hands of clones/phantasms. enemy dies or gets knock-backed and suddenly your 5mob aoe gets turned into 1mob skill.High boss damage is due to slow + csplit massive resets but against trash you dont get to have either, you end up having less actual damage then banner warriors that also act as buffers.In the end you end up good against bosses, amazing if you have the slow for it, but lackluster/bad at everything else. Use focus pull and portal to save time and pull your weight, otherwise others will do better in every way, shape or form.Buff chrono is only good in organized raids.

[necromaniac.7629]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:as a someone that often does fractals on power chrono... it has loads of issues. all the burst damage is spread over REALLY long time due chronophantasma, and all the aoe is not fully reliable since its in the hands of clones/phantasms. enemy dies or gets knock-backed and suddenly your 5mob aoe gets turned into 1mob skill.Would taking seize the moment instead and also taking illusions for the double shatter make any difference since no chronophantasma=more frequent clones which then equals 3 clone shatters off cooldown especially with 2 counts and reduced shatter recharge too?

[necromaniac.7629]

I wouldn't mind them reworking domination AGAIN so greatsword is an easier option to take if you know what I mean, also revert rewinder and danger time changes.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@necromaniac.7629 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:as a someone that often does fractals on power chrono... it has loads of issues. all the burst damage is spread over REALLY long time due chronophantasma, and all the aoe is not fully reliable since its in the hands of clones/phantasms. enemy dies or gets knock-backed and suddenly your 5mob aoe gets turned into 1mob skill.Would taking seize the moment instead and also taking illusions for the double shatter make any difference since no chronophantasma=more frequent clones which then equals 3 clone shatters off cooldown especially with 2 counts and reduced shatter recharge too?I don’t think there’s much point in running chrono when you ditch ~20% of your effectiveness (chronophantasma) and can’t even rely on another ~15-20% (danger time); core would outdps chrono at that point. Change either domi or duel to illu and you lose out on even more dmg because that’s how weak illu is atm.

Illu is the real estate for burst dmg (double f1 + phant quickness) but it simply doesn’t compare to domi/duel. Phantasmal force used to be a really cool thing (cuz rotation opener is full of phants) until domi came over and suddenly got +32% dmg phants, +25% dmg phants are not gonna cut it anymore (also +42% personal dmg vs +10% LOL). Ditch duel and they won’t crit, and you won’t hit as hard either. Ditch chrono(phantasma) and your overall dmg drops like a rock pretty much back to dps scourge level (w/o epi ofc), but I guess now you have a mediocre burst?

It scares me (or anet more likely) to think how much of a difference it would make if compounding power was changed to affect illusions (and a revert on the 3% -> 2% per stack for PvE would be nice too) so that illu actually had better phantasms vs domi...

[necromaniac.7629]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@necromaniac.7629 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:as a someone that often does fractals on power chrono... it has loads of issues. all the burst damage is spread over REALLY long time due chronophantasma, and all the aoe is not fully reliable since its in the hands of clones/phantasms. enemy dies or gets knock-backed and suddenly your 5mob aoe gets turned into 1mob skill.Would taking seize the moment instead and also taking illusions for the double shatter make any difference since no chronophantasma=more frequent clones which then equals 3 clone shatters off cooldown especially with 2 counts and reduced shatter recharge too?I don’t think there’s much point in running chrono when you ditch ~20% of your effectiveness (chronophantasma) and can’t even rely on another ~15-20% (danger time); core would outdps chrono at that point. Change either domi or duel to illu and you lose out on even more dmg because that’s how weak illu is atm.

Illu

is

the real estate for burst dmg (double f1 + phant quickness) but it simply doesn’t compare to domi/duel. Phantasmal force used to be a really cool thing (cuz rotation opener is full of phants) until domi came over and suddenly got +32% dmg phants, +25% dmg phants are not gonna cut it anymore (also +42% personal dmg vs +10% LOL). Ditch duel and they won’t crit, and you won’t hit as hard either. Ditch chrono(phantasma) and your overall dmg drops like a rock pretty much back to dps scourge level (w/o epi ofc), but I guess now you have a mediocre burst?

It scares me (or anet more likely) to think how much of a difference it would make if compounding power was changed to affect illusions (and a revert on the 3% -> 2% per stack for PvE would be nice too) so that illu actually had better phantasms vs domi...True tru tru, idk why I personally keep talking about mes and fracs in the same sentence lol, but to add more, Its just alot of phantasm buffing trait thats are just all over the place which drives you crazy trying to theorycraft stuff, for example, I think phantasmal haste and phantasmal fury should be 1 trait, and to balance it and also make it viable for sword phantasm especially, it should give 5 seconds of quickness and fury each, put that in illusions trait line and swap compounding power with sharper images (not sure abt this) make dominations not focus on illusions damage at all but personal and shatter, and do something with the whole dueling traitline cause its op lol.