Where is our dps spec?

[Esquilax.3491]

I don't get it.

Core mesmer is a pvp/wvw spec.Chrono is a top raid/fractal spec.Mirage is a pvp/wvw spec it seems.

Why did they double down on core mesmer?Where is our pve damage dealing spec? Why didn't mirage fill this niche we are lacking?

It's like ppl don't want you if you're not chrono.

Three game releases should be enough to allow mesmer to dps. Is this proof the class mechanics, like clones in pvp are enough to permanantly restrict us from dps gameplay? Because if they buff our dmg it would overpower pvp game modes so we are not allowed pve damage?

I feel disappointed personally.

[Levetty.1279]

Because they based the spec on a name and an art asset instead of an idea of what mechanics they wanted to add and what role it should play.

[Agent Noun.7350]

Mirage is our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition phantasm. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being really, really easy to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at Qtfy's benchmarks. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

[Zenith.7301]

@"Agent Noun.7350" said:Mirage is our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition phantasm. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being really, really easy to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at Qtfy's benchmarks. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

We don't have a respectable spec. Even if all condi classes were brought to 33-34k they'd be vastly preferrable to Mirage because mirage provides zero utility, their damage is single target as illusions despawn upon mob death, making the spec dreadful for fractals and cleave fights, the reliance on phantasms creates huge ramp up, and the mirrors and mirage utilities are useless in PvE.

Mirage also plays like a daredevil with none of the endurance management tools daredevil gets. Daredevil gets a third dodge bar to accommodate offensive use of dodges, we don't. All we get is crappy vigor uptime which does nothing for the fact that we need to burn dodges to even keep up decent DPS. Lotus training applies the conditions instantly, while Mirage needs to go through an even longer animation with a cast time to put out a weaker ambush attack after using a dodge.

It's a flat out worse version of condi daredevil and doesn't have the burst or cleave of power daredevil.

It's a selfish DPS spec with poor DPS tools and throughput given how littlle else it brings.

Essentially, Mirage is the Reaper of PoF.

[Agent Noun.7350]

For what it's worth, I don't think Mirage is perfect. It clearly has a lot of limitations, more than it should. But what I'm saying is that it isn't just a WvW/PvP spec like the OP said. It is definitely intended to be a PvE DPS spec for us, and it has some tools that help with that. I mean, there's a reason why condi Mirage damage is significantly better than condi Mesmer damage--Mirage has more condition damage DPS tools than base Mesmer does.

I'd love a Mesmer DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms, or one that could shatter a lot more often (which would certainly help with our cleave). Maybe a future elite spec will allow for that. (Though probably not.)

But if the real question is "when will Mesmer get a top-tier, meta-for-speed-clears DPS spec?", the answer is almost certainly "never." Mesmer's core design just doesn't really allow for it and after five years it's probably not going to change no matter how many threads I make asking for phantasm redesigns. It just isn't in the cards.

We do have a DPS spec. It isn't ever going to be at the top of the speed clear meta, but we do have one.

@Zenith.7301 said:Daredevil gets a third dodge bar to accommodate offensive use of dodges, we don't.

That's what Mirage Mirrors are for. I agree they can be clunky--I didn't say Mirage is perfect--but they fill roughly the same role. And if you're staying in melee (which you should), you're not exactly having to chase down your mirrors to break them.

@Zenith.7301 said:Essentially, Mirage is the Reaper of PoF.

Hoo boy, don't say that around a Necromancer.

[musu.9205]

@"Agent Noun.7350" said:For what it's worth, I don't think Mirage is perfect. It clearly has a lot of limitations, more than it should. But what I'm saying is that it isn't just a WvW/PvP spec like the OP said. It is definitely intended to be a PvE DPS spec for us, and it has some tools that help with that. I mean, there's a reason why condi Mirage damage is significantly better than condi Mesmer damage--Mirage has more condition damage DPS tools than base Mesmer does.

I'd love a Mesmer DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms, or one that could shatter a lot more often (which would certainly help with our cleave). Maybe a future elite spec will allow for that. (Though probably not.)

But if the real question is "when will Mesmer get a top-tier, meta-for-speed-clears DPS spec?", the answer is almost certainly "never." Mesmer's core design just doesn't really allow for it and after five years it's probably not going to change no matter how many threads I make asking for phantasm redesigns. It just isn't in the cards.

We do have a DPS spec. It isn't ever going to be at the top of the speed clear meta, but we do have one.

@Zenith.7301 said:Daredevil gets a third dodge bar to accommodate offensive use of dodges, we don't.

That's what Mirage Mirrors are for. I agree they can be clunky--I didn't say Mirage is perfect--but they fill roughly the same role. And if you're staying in melee (which you should), you're not exactly having to chase down your mirrors to break them.

@Zenith.7301 said:Essentially, Mirage is the Reaper of PoF.

Hoo boy, don't say that around a Necromancer.

even if you pick up every mirror . DD simply has more dodges . and more way to restore their dodges in an actual rotation . comparing mirror to dd is laughable .

[Agent Noun.7350]

@musu.9205 said:even if you pick up every mirror . DD simply has more dodges . and more way to restore their dodges in an actual rotation . comparing mirror to dd is laughable .

Okay, but "give you more dodges" is still the goal of mirage mirrors. That's what they're there for. I agree they're not as effective as a Daredevil's third dodge and endurance restoration, but they're still there to fill the same role.

I actually think one of Mirage's big limitations when it comes to mirrors is that Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination are too important. They're such large boosts to condition duration and damage that we can't fit other utilities in, even if they'd give us more mirrors to use and therefore more dodges (and therefore more ambush attacks).

But again: I'm saying that I agree that Mirage's balance is not where it should be, and that there are aspects of it that I wish were different, but also that it is intended to be our DPS spec and it is functional as one.

[musu.9205]

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@musu.9205 said:even if you pick up every mirror . DD simply has more dodges . and more way to restore their dodges in an actual rotation . comparing mirror to dd is laughable .

Okay, but "give you more dodges" is

still

the goal of mirage mirrors. That's what they're there for. I agree they're not as effective as a Daredevil's third dodge and endurance restoration, but they're still there to fill the same role.

I actually think one of Mirage's big limitations when it comes to mirrors is that Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination are too important. They're such large boosts to condition duration and damage that we can't fit other utilities in, even if they'd give us more mirrors to use and therefore more dodges (and therefore more ambush attacks).

But again: I'm saying that I agree that Mirage's balance is not where it should be, and that there are aspects of it that I wish were different, but also that it

is

intended to be our DPS spec and it

is

functional as one.

agree . but mirage utilities or mesmer utilities are in general too niche for dps anyway .best we can hope for is anet turn mirage into a clone spec with HI baseline or something else .at least that way we would have fairly easy time to catch up .i really dislike that signet of domination being a condition dmg passive ,if anything , it should be a power stats passive with some interesting interact with our illusion like signet healing skill .but again are are wishful thinking given how bad this game balance is right now .i guess i will keep playing holosmith and learning weaver . they are fun , engaging to play in pve .unlike dps mesmer .

[Agent Noun.7350]

@musu.9205 said:best we can hope for is anet turn mirage into a clone spec with HI baseline or something else .at least that way we would have fairly easy time to catch up .

Man, I love the idea of Infinite Horizon becoming a real DPS tool.

Somewhere in there is a version of Mirage with more dodges and that uses clones instead of phantasms, with Infinite Horizon being an important part of the rotation. You could even shatter sometimes, because getting your clones back up and running is a lot easier than resummoning phantasms. That'd be so much fun.

[musu.9205]

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@musu.9205 said:best we can hope for is anet turn mirage into a clone spec with HI baseline or something else .at least that way we would have fairly easy time to catch up .

Man, I love the idea of Infinite Horizon becoming a real DPS tool.

Somewhere in there is a version of Mirage with more dodges and that uses clones instead of phantasms, with Infinite Horizon being an important part of the rotation. You could even shatter sometimes, because getting your clones back up and running is a lot easier than resummoning phantasms. That'd be so much fun.

well currently raid bosses don't have much target skill that destroy our clones in most cases . but in fractal it's another story .i think in order to get clone build to work properly in pve , anet would have to buff clone hp a bit in pve .(not in wvw and pvp).axe 2 and axe 3 need some serious fixes like what they did to DD dodge .

tho with a clone build we could shatter here and there , the dps gain or loss wouldn't be much (most will come from ineptitude ) .slightly buff shatter traits for pve would be welcome i guess.

[OriOri.8724]

@"Agent Noun.7350" said:Mirage is our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition phantasm. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being really, really easy to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at Qtfy's benchmarks. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

Mirrors have no traits that buff them, at all. The only mirror related trait is buffing Distortion, a shatter skill, to turn our illusions into mirrors when we use Distortion. There is not a single trait in the game that buffs mirrors. I don't know what spec you are playing, but its not MIrage.

[Zenith.7301]

@"Agent Noun.7350" said:For what it's worth, I don't think Mirage is perfect. It clearly has a lot of limitations, more than it should. But what I'm saying is that it isn't just a WvW/PvP spec like the OP said. It is definitely intended to be a PvE DPS spec for us, and it has some tools that help with that. I mean, there's a reason why condi Mirage damage is significantly better than condi Mesmer damage--Mirage has more condition damage DPS tools than base Mesmer does.

I'd love a Mesmer DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms, or one that could shatter a lot more often (which would certainly help with our cleave). Maybe a future elite spec will allow for that. (Though probably not.)

But if the real question is "when will Mesmer get a top-tier, meta-for-speed-clears DPS spec?", the answer is almost certainly "never." Mesmer's core design just doesn't really allow for it and after five years it's probably not going to change no matter how many threads I make asking for phantasm redesigns. It just isn't in the cards.

We do have a DPS spec. It isn't ever going to be at the top of the speed clear meta, but we do have one.

@Zenith.7301 said:Daredevil gets a third dodge bar to accommodate offensive use of dodges, we don't.

That's what Mirage Mirrors are for. I agree they can be clunky--I didn't say Mirage is perfect--but they fill roughly the same role. And if you're staying in melee (which you should), you're not exactly having to chase down your mirrors to break them.

@Zenith.7301 said:Essentially, Mirage is the Reaper of PoF.

Hoo boy, don't say that around a Necromancer.

You can only get mirrors 2 ways:

By using worthless deception utilities outside crystal sands (so you can only generate a mirror every 20 seconds, a far cry from the daredevil's endurance bar refilling by more than 2/3 just from channel vigor alone or by using initiative skills).

Or by taking a trait with distortion, which you'll never take because you never want to shatter your illusions.

[Agent Noun.7350]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@"Agent Noun.7350" said:Mirage

is

our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition

phantasm

. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being

really, really easy

to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at

Qtfy's benchmarks

. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

Mirrors have no traits that buff them, at all. The only mirror related trait is buffing Distortion, a shatter skill, to turn our illusions into mirrors when we use Distortion. There is not a single trait in the game that buffs mirrors. I don't know what spec you are playing, but its not MIrage.

I was thinking of Dune Cloak, but I misread it. It applies when you gain Mirage Cloak, not specifically from mirrors: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dune_Cloak

For some reason I thought that made mirrors cause bleeding when shattered, but it’s just Mirage Cloak in general, which is technically better I guess?

Anyway it’s clear I’m an outlier in thinking Mirage is actually pretty functional. I think it’s a mistake to compare it so directly to Daredevil, especially.

[OriOri.8724]

Why is it a mistake to compare it to DD? DD was a spec that focused on heavy melee damage, and turned its dodges into a powerful offensive tool, and it got the kit to back that up. MIrage is a spec that focuses on heavy melee damage, and turned its dodges into a moderately ok-ish offensive tool, and did not get the kit to back that up.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Agent Noun.7350 said:Mirage

is

our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition

phantasm

. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being

really, really easy

to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at

Qtfy's benchmarks

. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

Mirrors have no traits that buff them, at all. The only mirror related trait is buffing Distortion, a shatter skill, to turn our illusions into mirrors when we use Distortion. There is not a single trait in the game that buffs mirrors. I don't know what spec you are playing, but its not MIrage.

I was thinking of Dune Cloak, but I misread it. It applies when you gain Mirage Cloak, not specifically from mirrors:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dune_Cloak

For some reason I thought that made mirrors cause bleeding when shattered, but it’s just Mirage Cloak in general, which is technically better I guess?

Anyway it’s clear I’m an outlier in thinking Mirage is actually pretty functional. I think it’s a mistake to compare it so directly to Daredevil, especially.

To be honest, I'm inclined to agree. I went into Mirage expecting it to be bad, and found it... functional, I guess? Maybe it's because I went in with low expectations, but I'm enjoying it more, and finding it more effective, then many of the other PoF elite specs.

That's not to say it doesn't have its problems. It clearly does. But it does seem to be intended to be the PvE DPS spec.

To give things some perspective, back when the leaks were happening, there was a leak indicating that Mirage was doing something like 70-80k on the benchmarks. Obviously that had to be toned down... a LOT, in fact. But what we're looking at now could be the result of that tall poppy having been cut down due to being really quite ridiculous, and the mirage is regarded by ArenaNet as a PvE DPS spec and well be balanced so that it's competitive in that area.

Of course, it's also possible that they could drop the ball entirely.

[OriOri.8724]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Agent Noun.7350 said:Mirage

is

our DPS spec. If it weren't for Weaver, Firebrand, Soulbeast, and Renegade condi specs being overtuned I think Mirage would be in a pretty respectable spot.

We have good DPS tools there, including an elite skill that applies a damaging condition (Jaunt), traits that make Mirage Mirrors apply conditions when shattered, and utilities that let us make more of those Mirage Mirrors. Axe is a pretty respectable melee condi weapon, too (y'know, as far as Mesmer weapons go--obviously all our weapons are weaker than most other professions' because of phantasms).

What we're really lacking is a good condition

phantasm

. The one phantasm we have that naturally applies conditions (the torch phantasm) is really bad at it, so we use pistol phantasms because we can trait them to stack bleeding. It's kind of an awkward situation.

I know people are generally pessimistic about ArenaNet's balance approach, but if we take them at their word that the specs doing 37k+ DPS are overperforming and need to be brought back into line, that's going to leave Mirage in a good spot. And Mirage has the advantage of being

really, really easy

to do DPS with compared to something like Weaver. Take a look at

Qtfy's benchmarks

. Again, if we take ArenaNet at their word that the 37k DPS specs are doing too much damage, and we assume they'll be nerfed at some point (probably when the first wing of the PoF raid releases), Mirage is sitting pretty, and because our rotation is dead simple, it's not even going to require us to go crazy to pull it off. It's a reasonably realistic benchmark--the worst case scenario is we need to resummon phantasms once in a while.

Now, to be clear, I do wish that we had a good power DPS spec and a DPS spec that didn't rely on phantasms. I'd love that. But we do have a DPS spec--it's just that we're not one of the overpowered ones.

Mirrors have no traits that buff them, at all. The only mirror related trait is buffing Distortion, a shatter skill, to turn our illusions into mirrors when we use Distortion. There is not a single trait in the game that buffs mirrors. I don't know what spec you are playing, but its not MIrage.

I was thinking of Dune Cloak, but I misread it. It applies when you gain Mirage Cloak, not specifically from mirrors:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dune_Cloak

For some reason I thought that made mirrors cause bleeding when shattered, but it’s just Mirage Cloak in general, which is technically better I guess?

Anyway it’s clear I’m an outlier in thinking Mirage is actually pretty functional. I think it’s a mistake to compare it so directly to Daredevil, especially.

To be honest, I'm inclined to agree. I went into Mirage expecting it to be bad, and found it... functional, I guess? Maybe it's because I went in with low expectations, but I'm enjoying it more, and finding it more effective, then many of the other PoF elite specs.

That's not to say it doesn't have its problems. It clearly does. But it does seem to be intended to be the PvE DPS spec.

To give things some perspective, back when the leaks were happening, there was a leak indicating that Mirage was doing something like 70-80k on the benchmarks. Obviously that had to be toned down... a LOT, in fact. But what we're looking at now could be the result of that tall poppy having been cut down due to being really quite ridiculous, and the mirage is regarded by ArenaNet as a PvE DPS spec and well be balanced so that it's competitive in that area.

Of course, it's also possible that they could drop the ball entirely.

I didn't watch the leaks too closely, but I don't recall any actual numbers being thrown around. Merely that Mirage was "top of the charts". But then again we also had people like WP who claimed that even in the state it was at PoF launch, Mirage would absolutely be the best goddamn DPS and mobility this game had ever seen.

[bart.3687]

I really enjoy mirage in PvP, but not so much in PvE. Saying that this spec was designed to be PvE-centered is a mistake imo. I feel like it offers too few things that are useful in PvE. For example, I have to use Mirage Mantle in PvE because I use scepter, so axe trait is obviously useless for me, and mirage mirrors on distortion are too situational. But I don't really think that 1.5 sec protection is any good in PvE, so it's basically a waste of major master trait. Adept traits are not so useful in pve as well, and all ambushes are seriously underwhelming.Mirage is really only worth it in pve when you plan on using an axe imo, because axe offers new kind of gameplay (elusive, melee condi) and aesthetics.I don't know about you guys, but I only use mirage in PvE because I like the theme. Really. This spec feels totally PvP-oriented to me.× It's worth mentioning that I'm talking from a casual pve perspective. I do not raid, so maybe mirage is much of an improvement there. I wouldn't know.

To sum up:Mirage overall: Lovely theme.Mirage in PvP: Sure, pretty fun.Mirage in PvE: Meh

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, generally when people talk about PvE DPS, they're usually talking about high-end group content like fractals and raids. For more casual stuff, as long as you don't have one of the ridiculously tanky-over-damage sets like Nomad's, you're probably fine almost regardless of build (in many ways, in fact, casual PvE can make good use of active defences more important).

And I can see what you mean about axe: if you're not using an axe, the major trait options are a bit underwhelming. (I presume that's what you mean about being forced to use Mirage Mantle: you're not using an axe at all, so Mirage Mantle is your least-bad option?)

I have had some fun with power mirage running sword/sword/greatsword despite that, though, although I expect people who've run the numbers will tell you that Split Surge looks pretty but isn't actually worth it.

[KeoLegend.5132]

I love Power Mesmer or Power Chrono. Mantaining 3 Swordsman for constant damage opens up the window for you to deal even more damage or Support the team up a bit. I hate condis aswell and comparing my DPS to other classes the difference wasnt really that big. I mean, yeah they deal way more DPS long term but i have equal or better burst. The difference? If things get hard i can simply Blink away, heal, reposition, start over... without losing a big part of damage cuz my fellow illusions are still hitting

[Aylaine.1036]

I must be in the minority because I love Mirage in PvE. I feel powerful, but it's certainly more work to get the damage rolling then the other classes/elite specs. I'm fine with that honestly, as we can only improve when that inevitable balance patch comes and tones down the other classes a bit + gives some buffs our way. I know it wasn't what people wanted, and it does need a fair bit of work and polish (outside of the base mesmer issues anyways) but I'm satisfied for now with Mirage. :)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm the minority, too. It takes some learning, but I actually have fun with the spec. I find the clone build to be much funner than the phantasm build, even though it does 10% less DPS. The mirage can be surprisingly evasive, and the combat mobility is excellent for both escaping and chasing. It's hard to play, though.

This is one of the reasons why I want Infinite Horizons to be baseline. Not only is it fun in concept, but that minor buff can make the clone build compete with the phantasm build for damage.

[Nowaki.2136]

Wanna make a good mesmer spect? make so it DOES NOT rely on phantasms to do the dmg! .. Anet we like clones, they are cool, but thats it they are just cool and we want them just to be a cool animation thing! not to be our dps source!

[Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489]

I love Mirage, but like others have said, the whole relying on phantasms to do damage is a bit meh. I'm running a condition build, and currently phantasms feels more like elite skills. I save them for Champions or bosses because everything else die super fast with my axe 2, ambush and f1.

Although being finally allowed to join raids on my mesmer and actually run a damage build feels great, so there's that :D + the phantasm rotation is still pretty fun and after summoning phantasms I still have a fun build to play, compared to some other rotations I've tried (both on mesmer and other specs).

[Unknown.3976]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Yeah, generally when people talk about PvE DPS, they're usually talking about high-end group content like fractals and raids. For more casual stuff, as long as you don't have one of the ridiculously tanky-over-damage sets like Nomad's, you're probably fine almost regardless of build (in many ways, in fact, casual PvE can make good use of active defences more important).

And I can see what you mean about axe: if you're not using an axe, the major trait options are a bit underwhelming. (I presume that's what you mean about being forced to use Mirage Mantle: you're not using an axe at all, so Mirage Mantle is your least-bad option?)

I have had some fun with power mirage running sword/sword/greatsword despite that, though, although I expect people who've run the numbers will tell you that Split Surge looks pretty but isn't actually worth it.

Power builds with mirage is very much a joke. Activate ur ambush skills and watch as ur clones tickles the foe. There's nothing in the mirage traitline that would benefit a power build. Zero benefits. chrono and core mes are way better for power builds.

And Mirage is supposed to empower clones and make clones an optimal dps source (through the use of ambush skills) but that did not come to fruition. PvE mes ultimately still have to rely on a very stale mechanic (phantasm) to output dmg, mes players have already been doing that for 5 years, what use do we have for an elite spec that does mostly the same?

[keyokku.5412]

mirage in whatever pve, wvw, PvP, is just an enhancement for survivability, mobility and a bit of ambush bonus and utility, not really setting us up for DPS. Our one shot 30k wvw pvp power bursts is based on old stuff - just that we can evade and survive better while doing high risk offensive stuff like that. Pve 30k Condi rotations is possibly respectable but not the biggest addition. Mirage is not designed as our DPS spec. However one point does stand in its favour and that's based on the mesmer specialties of avoiding damage while dealing damage. So you can argue other specs might not be as successful staying on consistent dps if they have to evade or get out of the way, while a mirage may contribute to DPS uninterrupted and stopping less