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Thoughts on was to improve MH Mace


Shroud.2307

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@lovemghool.7613 said:Dagger has what mace needs; mobility and utility and a burst skill that doesnt deal 0 damage to a single target. I have long since given up on it.

Yeah... That said though Mace F1 T3 burst is a long stun. So at least there is that going for it.

1 second on spellbreaker, lol

like dagger 3 is a way better version of mace 3 with same cooldown,and i would argue slow is better then single hit block and counterattack does less damage then dagger 2 in pvp split, on top of dagger 2 being a leap while counter attack barely ever hitand the saddest part is the autoattack chain, mace AA is slightly higher then dagger, with double the cast time, lol, seriously don't know whats the point of mace

maybe there's no role for mace in pvp, i think these weapons are too simple mechanically wise and anet doesnt bother to change them, they just power creep them to death, like axe just damage and has nothing interesting at all, just brainlessly hoard all damage in all axe skills for NPC which doesnt move, just gonna press 12345 to an immobile NPC, because anything else barely get hit.same for mace, just hoard all CC and nothing else.

this is probably the solution they got after 8 years

Gotta agree on Dagger, but I do also think Skull Crack and Crushing Blow are still good skills. The problem is that landing Skull Crack isn't nearly as rewarding as it used to be because Stability and stunbreaks are so much more common. Pre-HoT if you were to land a good Skull Crack most times it would be a fight ender.

Crushing Blow has been buffed a few times and hits pretty hard now, as well as applying a lot of Vuln, but Wastrel's Ruin is still 100x better.

Idk, I deleted my Warrior some time ago now because I just stopped enjoying the class and I was never great with it anyway. But I enjoyed Mace right to the end, it's a fun weapon and ANet really needs to give it some love.

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@Shroud.2307 said:

Gotta agree on Dagger, but I do also think Skull Crack and Crushing Blow are still good skills. The problem is that landing Skull Crack isn't nearly as rewarding as it used to be because Stability and stunbreaks are so much more common. Pre-HoT if you were to land a good Skull Crack most times it would be a fight ender.

Crushing Blow has been buffed a few times and hits pretty hard now, as well as applying a lot of Vuln, but Wastrel's Ruin is still 100x better.

Idk, I deleted my Warrior some time ago now because I just stopped enjoying the class and I was never great with it anyway. But I enjoyed Mace right to the end, it's a fun weapon and ANet really needs to give it some love.

Dagger is better. Mace just needs a total overhaul at this point. Skull Crack would indeed be better if there were not so many stunbreaks on some classes.

I'm sorry to hear you deleted your warrior! Come back sometime before EoD releases so you can get back into the swing of it before the new especs get rolled out.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'm sorry to hear you deleted your warrior! Come back sometime before EoD releases so you can get back into the swing of it before the new especs get rolled out.

Certainly a possibility. I have a soft spot for Warrior and Thief even though I don't have either. I've played both quite a bit, but I always get frustrated with their state of balance and my lack of ability on them. They're both very fun classes though.

If Mace ever gets some reworks or serious buffs to make it as appealing as Dagger, I will remake in a heartbeat.

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@"Lan Deathrider.5910" "Main hand mace just doesn't have synergy with itself.The berserker burst is okish, the core burst is not good its hard to hit and the pay off is not good even if you land it since no follow through . Counterblow is just bad defensive skill it stops one attack and the retaliation attack is so bad it never hits, people just walk away from it, you don't get any value like other classes get from their similar skills.Pommel Bash is just hard to land since its low range single target attack that dazes a little, I don't think it deserves its slot on the weapon since it does fuck all.The basic attack is the supposed follow through after you cc someone but it usually too slow and you never hit the 3 part of the chain and also does too little damage for the slow wind up. The trait is total garbage it increases the daze on the pummel by 0.2 second it does not work with the burst skill as far as I remember so there isn't benefit for main hand also it does not have all rounder part to make it useful without a mace like the rest of the weapon traits .I think something that lets you instantly hit your 3rd basic auto attack chain after landing a cc would give it some combo potential with some damage boost or something , like Trinity force from League of legends, this should probably baseline and not a trait. They kinda did that with Hammer (even though it needs to be worked on) where Fierce blow is the follow through after cc.

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@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

They don't. Or maybe they listen to Twitch Streamers only..... ? I know from experience that they just dont listen to proper suggestions being made,hence the entire suggestion section on this forum got removed years ago.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my shit suggestions.
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

I also pretty much designed Scourge's Torch #5 skill, Oppressive Collapse.Pre-HoT I had made a Necro elite concept thread that gave Necro Torch, except that it was main-hand and Chill themed with a default greenish flame. One of the skills was to slam the torch in to the ground to create an area of Torment and Cripple with skeletal hands that would knock down in the area.Oppressive Collapse applies Burn instead of Cripple, but is otherwise exactly as I wrote. And this was so far back it was before even Reaper existed.

I believe ANet listens more than people think, but I'm also not going to say they always listen to the right things.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

Probably not your fault as it should be common problem for most berserker players.like i said, anet doesnt care,

the only time anet does listen to something, like suggested adding double blast to warhorn, like suggested turning longbow burst skill back to all level same radius, like many other suggestions we did in the past yearsin the end it didnt matter, meta shifted long ago.

just like brave stride, in the end it didnt matter. because anet know it didn't matter, they tested it in private, they know it won't change how warrior operates in it's core, as long as warrior function as it is right now, the circle of being the highest meta downtime class and being playable 1/5 of the time will always continue.

right now pvp meta is actually very nice that most things are playable, but when every 8 other classes have a playable role, the warrior becomes even more useless.the only time warrior is playable, it is when it's dominant and op and destroy everyone else in side node or as an over buffed support(extremely rarely, happened for like 5 months in total of 9 years).if every class can be a good side node, why would you need a completely selfish warrior as a side node, when everbody can support why would you need a warrior when others have way better support utility.see the patern? the only time warrior is playable is when it's OP, or else it's undesirable because it's kits are extremely lacking.

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Also anet knows what warrior is lacking, but they want to keep warrior simple and boring, they want to keep warrior as is.for reasons, i don't know, maybe attract new players, but it also drove away all the veteran warriors, some of them switched class, but some just simply quit the game.

also that's why they made spellbreaker, after 5 years of being completely garbage, just for warrior to have some chance in the wvw/pvp.but it's not enough as warrior in it's core, is just not enough.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

Probably not your fault as it should be common problem for most berserker players.like i said, anet doesnt care,

the only time anet does listen to something, like suggested adding double blast to warhorn, like suggested turning longbow burst skill back to all level same radius, like many other suggestions we did in the past yearsin the end it didnt matter, meta shifted long ago.

just like brave stride, in the end it didnt matter. because anet know it didn't matter, they tested it in private, they know it won't change how warrior operates in it's core, as long as warrior function as it is right now, the circle of being the highest meta downtime class and being playable 1/5 of the time will always continue.

right now pvp meta is actually very nice that most things are playable, but when every 8 other classes have a playable role, the warrior becomes even more useless.the only time warrior is playable, it is when it's dominant and op and destroy everyone else in side node or as an over buffed support(extremely rarely, happened for like 5 months in total of 9 years).if every class can be a good side node, why would you need a completely selfish warrior as a side node, when everbody can support why would you need a warrior when others have way better support utility.see the patern? the only time warrior is playable is when it's OP, or else it's undesirable because it's kits are extremely lacking.

See the issue here is that they do listen and do know stuff, but currently its a game of jenga and for example Berserk is one of the best PVE specks if not the best one and if they touch it up for PVP it might affect negatively PVE, so they decided SB for PVP, Berserker for PVE which I personally dislike since it reduces my options how to play and I like the rage boy playstyle over the technical SB style of gameplay.As you said it Warrior is too simple and requires complete rework that is why The Omnibus exists and we are bumping it up constantly till someone reads it and makes some changes and it probably will get some around the new expansion. The problem is that over the years people have not been constructive and only negative about stuff and when its only negatives people will most probably skim through and read it properly.Also you are right they have left warrior as is, maybe cause warrior mains don't complain or properly complain about stuff. Like for example the banner thing I wrote , can you imagine if a set of skills lose half of the stuff they do on another class, there would be bitching and moaning for months, here "eh whatever its fine".

I also don't understand how Arenanet manages to botch something simple as warrior, "I punch, you hurt" , but all I can do is write somewhere that this and that doesn't work and hope for a little change since. Currently how something plays is not their priority even though it is the main selling point of the game, but what do I know I don't hold the statistic charts that they so love. I can rant , shit post and be negative but it will get me nowhere.
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

Probably not your fault as it should be common problem for most berserker players.like i said, anet doesnt care,

the only time anet does listen to something, like suggested adding double blast to warhorn, like suggested turning longbow burst skill back to all level same radius, like many other suggestions we did in the past yearsin the end it didnt matter, meta shifted long ago.

just like brave stride, in the end it didnt matter. because anet know it didn't matter, they tested it in private, they know it won't change how warrior operates in it's core, as long as warrior function as it is right now, the circle of being the highest meta downtime class and being playable 1/5 of the time will always continue.

right now pvp meta is actually very nice that most things are playable, but when every 8 other classes have a playable role, the warrior becomes even more useless.the only time warrior is playable, it is when it's dominant and op and destroy everyone else in side node or as an over buffed support(extremely rarely, happened for like 5 months in total of 9 years).if every class can be a good side node, why would you need a completely selfish warrior as a side node, when everbody can support why would you need a warrior when others have way better support utility.see the patern? the only time warrior is playable is when it's OP, or else it's undesirable because it's kits are extremely lacking.

See the issue here is that they do listen and do know stuff, but currently its a game of jenga and for example Berserk is one of the best PVE specks if not the best one and if they touch it up for PVP it might affect negatively PVE, so they decided SB for PVP, Berserker for PVE which I personally dislike since it reduces my options how to play and I like the rage boy playstyle over the technical SB style of gameplay.As you said it Warrior is too simple and requires complete rework that is why The Omnibus exists and we are bumping it up constantly till someone reads it and makes some changes and it probably will get some around the new expansion. The problem is that over the years people have not been constructive and only negative about stuff and when its only negatives people will most probably skim through and read it properly.Also you are right they have left warrior as is, maybe cause warrior mains don't complain or properly complain about stuff. Like for example the banner thing I wrote , can you imagine if a set of skills lose half of the stuff they do on another class, there would be kitten and moaning for months, here "eh whatever its fine".

I also don't understand how Arenanet manages to botch something simple as warrior, "I punch, you hurt" , but all I can do is write somewhere that this and that doesn't work and hope for a little change since. Currently how something plays is not their priority even though it is the main selling point of the game, but what do I know I don't hold the statistic charts that they so love. I can rant , kitten post and be negative but it will get me nowhere.

tbh i think most of the people in that thread don't understand why others are picked over warrior in pvp.

for example, the current side noders, condi rev/prot holo, do they beat spellbreaker? not reallybut why they are meta and not spellbreaker, because they can guard the point from spellbreaker.Andfor prot holo, it has( for teammates) AoE prot, AoE cleanse, AoE stun, AoE knockback, AoE pull, AoE knockdown, poison field, water field, weakness and range attackfor condi rev, it can pull conditions from allies, AoE resistance, AoE Pull, AoE prot, AoE multi knock down, downed body knock back, AoE swiftness, AoE fury, weakness, ranged AoE pressure and ranged boond removal.

while power spellbreaker has, AoE daze, AoE cleanse, AoE boon removal in melee range only if CC'ed, single target daze, single target knock down, single target pull, and has no range pressure which greatly increase risk in bigger fights.

anet probably gave full counter just so warrior can actually sustain in melee in bigger fights, because before warrior has to take all the damage and basically just die.but, being able to sustain in melee in bigger fights, while is a good progression, but doesnt really make it more desirable than others.also full counter is just annoying and toxic gameplay.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

Probably not your fault as it should be common problem for most berserker players.like i said, anet doesnt care,

the only time anet does listen to something, like suggested adding double blast to warhorn, like suggested turning longbow burst skill back to all level same radius, like many other suggestions we did in the past yearsin the end it didnt matter, meta shifted long ago.

just like brave stride, in the end it didnt matter. because anet know it didn't matter, they tested it in private, they know it won't change how warrior operates in it's core, as long as warrior function as it is right now, the circle of being the highest meta downtime class and being playable 1/5 of the time will always continue.

right now pvp meta is actually very nice that most things are playable, but when every 8 other classes have a playable role, the warrior becomes even more useless.the only time warrior is playable, it is when it's dominant and op and destroy everyone else in side node or as an over buffed support(extremely rarely, happened for like 5 months in total of 9 years).if every class can be a good side node, why would you need a completely selfish warrior as a side node, when everbody can support why would you need a warrior when others have way better support utility.see the patern? the only time warrior is playable is when it's OP, or else it's undesirable because it's kits are extremely lacking.

See the issue here is that they do listen and do know stuff, but currently its a game of jenga and for example Berserk is one of the best PVE specks if not the best one and if they touch it up for PVP it might affect negatively PVE, so they decided SB for PVP, Berserker for PVE which I personally dislike since it reduces my options how to play and I like the rage boy playstyle over the technical SB style of gameplay.As you said it Warrior is too simple and requires complete rework that is why The Omnibus exists and we are bumping it up constantly till someone reads it and makes some changes and it probably will get some around the new expansion. The problem is that over the years people have not been constructive and only negative about stuff and when its only negatives people will most probably skim through and read it properly.Also you are right they have left warrior as is, maybe cause warrior mains don't complain or properly complain about stuff. Like for example the banner thing I wrote , can you imagine if a set of skills lose half of the stuff they do on another class, there would be kitten and moaning for months, here "eh whatever its fine".

I also don't understand how Arenanet manages to botch something simple as warrior, "I punch, you hurt" , but all I can do is write somewhere that this and that doesn't work and hope for a little change since. Currently how something plays is not their priority even though it is the main selling point of the game, but what do I know I don't hold the statistic charts that they so love. I can rant , kitten post and be negative but it will get me nowhere.

tbh i think most of the people in that thread don't understand why others are picked over warrior in pvp.

for example, the current side noders, condi rev/prot holo, do they beat spellbreaker? not reallybut why they are meta and not spellbreaker, because they can guard the point from spellbreaker.Andfor prot holo, it has( for teammates) AoE prot, AoE cleanse, AoE stun, AoE knockback, AoE pull, AoE knockdown, poison field, water field, weakness and range attackfor condi rev, it can pull conditions from allies, AoE resistance, AoE Pull, AoE prot, AoE multi knock down, downed body knock back, AoE swiftness, AoE fury, weakness, ranged AoE pressure and ranged boond removal.

while power spellbreaker has, AoE daze, AoE cleanse, AoE boon removal in melee range only if CC'ed, single target daze, single target knock down, single target pull, and has no range pressure which greatly increase risk in bigger fights.

anet probably gave full counter just so warrior can actually sustain in melee in bigger fights, because before warrior has to take all the damage and basically just die.but, being able to sustain in melee in bigger fights, doesnt really make it more desirable than others.also full counter is just annoying and toxic gameplay.People whined about the passive healing on warrior with defense that allowed it to be in fights, it got nerfed to the ground and they put FC in the game, I don't think people have any right to complain about it no matter how broken it is, they got what they wanted now its active defense. I find it quite stupid also since Ranger has better passive sustain with so many traits while warrior had Adrenal Health and Signet and its is a melee with no grand escapes.We have sidetracked too much from the thread though it turned to about suggestions and why warrior is shit in general and not the main subject of the thread "why is mace shit though". I think both subjects deserve their own threads.
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Stop bothering it wont happen. Anet doesnt listen to our suggestions,period. Its a waste of kitten time. They think they know best while most of their hardcore playerbase is moving away.They actually do changes based on suggestion, it just takes about a year to implement it in their way, so we can hope that they read the proper suggestions by bumping up threads like this till someone reads them and thinks "That might be good idea", it has happened before so it doesn't hurt to try.

i've suggested almost every single thing u see in the first page 6 years ago, reason why there's barely any old pvp warrior(who played in the ESL days) play anymore.warrior the class in it's core is just garbage with lowest potential plays, anet doesn't bother, even if it did listen, it would be after 2-3 years and it would be one of the minor things and people already grew tired.

like who would play when your class is barely playable? warrior was playable for 2 months since 2020 feb and that's 14 months in total and 12 months of being completely garbage in high end play.and this literally happens for years and years, not just 2020.warrior has the longest down time in any period and second place doesn't even come close.

anet refuse to give warrior better skill mechanics, instead, they just buff numbers, and then the forum will fill with QQ and warrior gets nerfed and gutted after 1-2 months of being viable and be completely trash for the next 6 months+.

and then there's thief/rev/mes/holo/guard who will always be good and carry teams no matter how many nerfs they get.people don't realize OP skill mechanics is better then any number buff.

Well you are right about the mechanics and numbers, but some of my suggestions have made it into the game, the most recent one is the Fields of ruin DRM boss getting its one shot back but with better animation after they nerfed it. Another is that I said something about Outrage not having a way to get the 5 second duration increase in structured PVE so they put the remove stability thing on Headbutt, which would have been fine and dandy if they did it on all classes, but as you said it Arenanet might be lazy with some things. This may or not be my fault, but I feel that I should not have written anything that time. Please don't hate me about my kitten suggestions.

Probably not your fault as it should be common problem for most berserker players.like i said, anet doesnt care,

the only time anet does listen to something, like suggested adding double blast to warhorn, like suggested turning longbow burst skill back to all level same radius, like many other suggestions we did in the past yearsin the end it didnt matter, meta shifted long ago.

just like brave stride, in the end it didnt matter. because anet know it didn't matter, they tested it in private, they know it won't change how warrior operates in it's core, as long as warrior function as it is right now, the circle of being the highest meta downtime class and being playable 1/5 of the time will always continue.

right now pvp meta is actually very nice that most things are playable, but when every 8 other classes have a playable role, the warrior becomes even more useless.the only time warrior is playable, it is when it's dominant and op and destroy everyone else in side node or as an over buffed support(extremely rarely, happened for like 5 months in total of 9 years).if every class can be a good side node, why would you need a completely selfish warrior as a side node, when everbody can support why would you need a warrior when others have way better support utility.see the patern? the only time warrior is playable is when it's OP, or else it's undesirable because it's kits are extremely lacking.

See the issue here is that they do listen and do know stuff, but currently its a game of jenga and for example Berserk is one of the best PVE specks if not the best one and if they touch it up for PVP it might affect negatively PVE, so they decided SB for PVP, Berserker for PVE which I personally dislike since it reduces my options how to play and I like the rage boy playstyle over the technical SB style of gameplay.As you said it Warrior is too simple and requires complete rework that is why The Omnibus exists and we are bumping it up constantly till someone reads it and makes some changes and it probably will get some around the new expansion. The problem is that over the years people have not been constructive and only negative about stuff and when its only negatives people will most probably skim through and read it properly.Also you are right they have left warrior as is, maybe cause warrior mains don't complain or properly complain about stuff. Like for example the banner thing I wrote , can you imagine if a set of skills lose half of the stuff they do on another class, there would be kitten and moaning for months, here "eh whatever its fine".

I also don't understand how Arenanet manages to botch something simple as warrior, "I punch, you hurt" , but all I can do is write somewhere that this and that doesn't work and hope for a little change since. Currently how something plays is not their priority even though it is the main selling point of the game, but what do I know I don't hold the statistic charts that they so love. I can rant , kitten post and be negative but it will get me nowhere.

tbh i think most of the people in that thread don't understand why others are picked over warrior in pvp.

for example, the current side noders, condi rev/prot holo, do they beat spellbreaker? not reallybut why they are meta and not spellbreaker, because they can guard the point from spellbreaker.Andfor prot holo, it has( for teammates) AoE prot, AoE cleanse, AoE stun, AoE knockback, AoE pull, AoE knockdown, poison field, water field, weakness and range attackfor condi rev, it can pull conditions from allies, AoE resistance, AoE Pull, AoE prot, AoE multi knock down, downed body knock back, AoE swiftness, AoE fury, weakness, ranged AoE pressure and ranged boond removal.

while power spellbreaker has, AoE daze, AoE cleanse, AoE boon removal in melee range only if CC'ed, single target daze, single target knock down, single target pull, and has no range pressure which greatly increase risk in bigger fights.

anet probably gave full counter just so warrior can actually sustain in melee in bigger fights, because before warrior has to take all the damage and basically just die.but, being able to sustain in melee in bigger fights, doesnt really make it more desirable than others.also full counter is just annoying and toxic gameplay.People whined about the passive healing on warrior with defense that allowed it to be in fights, it got nerfed to the ground and they put FC in the game, I don't think people have any right to complain about it no matter how broken it is, they got what they wanted now its active defense. I find it quite stupid also since Ranger has better passive sustain with so many traits while warrior had Adrenal Health and Signet and its is a melee with no grand escapes.We have sidetracked too much from the thread though it turned to about suggestions and why warrior is kitten in general and not the main subject of the thread "why is mace kitten though". I think both subjects deserve their own threads.

like passive sustain wasnt enough, because it doesnt scale, it can be OP side node 1v1 while still insta die in team fights.full counter scales.but why warrior has highest HP and armor yet still need full counter to even survive, while others clearly does way better in fights with less sustain, because they don't need to be in enemy's face 24/7 to do damage or stay incredible close to allies for support, that's why it not only allows them to survive in bigger fights, also making their skills more reliable to land which in the end makes them just better when balanced.

i do agree with you for these subjects deserving own threads.

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I don't really understand Full Counter.

Is Full Counter actually good. It does like 50 damage, very brief damage immunity, does a brief AoE interrupt on a 12 second cooldown, plus is easily evaded.

Is this a concern for some people or something. If I see FC go up I typically just hit dodge. It's functionally a brief block with a brief AoE daze that chews up an adrenaline bar and caps out your adrenaline to boot.

I don't even see the point of things like Slow Counter, Revenge Counter, or Guard Counter because it overlaps with the Daze, meaning you're losing 1 second of the value of whatever it is. Same thing with Body Blow. Damage modifiers are also pointless because a 2.0x modifier is still nothing, another reason I don't understand Revenge Counter, despite the appeal of copying conditions, which also makes the stability granted of reduced value. Am I wrong there?

Consider that Slow Counter gives 2 seconds of Slow in PvP, meaning you're getting 1 second of daze and one second of slow. Does that not reduce the value of the slow? Why is the slow even reduced in PvP from 3 to 2 seconds? That effectively means you're reducing the value of the slow in half just by stepping into arena.

Loss aversion is another talent that makes me scratch my head. It adds 27 damage to boon removal, which only triggers on CC or specific abilities. 27 damage. Wow! I sure do regret when I watch someone wander out of melee range and make my Skull Crack hit air, I think, I could have done 27 additional damage to them if they had just stayed still! On the other hand considering the base damage of Skull Crack is 4, that is a whopping 7.75x damage increase over this questionable burst ability. On top of that, stripping boons off of a player that is stunned really is great value. What is diminishing returns.

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@TugboatSteve.3607 said:I don't really understand Full Counter.

Is Full Counter actually good. It does like 50 damage, very brief damage immunity, does a brief AoE interrupt on a 12 second cooldown, plus is easily evaded.

Is this a concern for some people or something. If I see FC go up I typically just hit dodge. It's functionally a brief block with a brief AoE daze that chews up an adrenaline bar and caps out your adrenaline to boot.

I don't even see the point of things like Slow Counter, Revenge Counter, or Guard Counter because it overlaps with the Daze, meaning you're losing 1 second of the value of whatever it is. Same thing with Body Blow. Damage modifiers are also pointless because a 2.0x modifier is still nothing, another reason I don't understand Revenge Counter, despite the appeal of copying conditions, which also makes the stability granted of reduced value. Am I wrong there?

Consider that Slow Counter gives 2 seconds of Slow in PvP, meaning you're getting 1 second of daze and one second of slow. Does that not reduce the value of the slow? Why is the slow even reduced in PvP from 3 to 2 seconds? That effectively means you're reducing the value of the slow in half just by stepping into arena.

Loss aversion is another talent that makes me scratch my head. It adds 27 damage to boon removal, which only triggers on CC or specific abilities. 27 damage. Wow! I sure do regret when I watch someone wander out of melee range and make my Skull Crack hit air, I think, I could have done 27 additional damage to them if they had just stayed still! On the other hand considering the base damage of Skull Crack is 4, that is a whopping 7.75x damage increase over this questionable burst ability. On top of that, stripping boons off of a player that is stunned really is great value. What is diminishing returns.

Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

but not only that, my main concern is how it resets burst skill, which will then proc building momentum back to back 4 times with weapon swap. which is clearly way superior then core war/berserker, which is part of why spellbreaker spams so much evade.

and that full counter it'self brings more sustain than the whole defense line. making so spellbreaker can sustain better then core while doing better damage at the same time in pvp.it is the mechanic that carries the entire class to be at least playable in anything that isn't PvE.

to be honest, i'd rather see anet scatter full counter's sustain to multiple skill instead of just whole class getting completely carried by one single skill.like how, not counting dodging, power rev sustain is built up with evades/block/kitting from multiple skills.while warrior's sustain is built up with only full counter

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@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

Hey, I'm going to try to just bring about some areas where you're missing nuance and see if we can meet some middle ground.

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

It's not a stab, it does about 50 damage before toughness in an AoE. It's primary value is the 1 second of daze in arena and the damage reduction/stability. It also has a cooldown of 12 seconds in arena, not 8. I'm specifically talking about PvP. In PvE, it does a good amount of damage commensurate to a burst skill.

but not only that, my main concern is how it resets burst skill, which will then proc building momentum back to back 4 times with weapon swap. which is clearly way superior then core war/berserker, which is part of why spellbreaker spams so much evade.

It is a burst skill that does no damage, and intrinsic to its design, caps all burst skills at the 1st tier. In effect, it allows you to spend 3 adrenaline bars by using burst 1, full counter, then burst one without weapon swap by using the reset. Compare that to using 3 adrenaline bars on a burst skill that just does a lot more damage, for example axe F1. I'm not saying it's equivalent, but it clearly is not without serious, easily understood drawbacks.

It also requires you to build into an elite spec, Spellbreaker. That's not an apples to apples comparison. There are things in other trees like strength, tactics, or discipline that people may want. By choosing SB, you have to choose one of those trees to drop and all of the pips on the build tree that go along with it, exchanging them for SB. That is a giant tuning knob to control FC. That entire build tree can be controlled. Or, they could just drop the damage scaling down to .1 on Full Counter, which they've already done. Is it not enough that spending an entire bar that effectively neutralizes your offense during cast by doing virtually no damage, and is furthermore easily evaded with an obvious and lengthy tell?

It is certainly not a bad skill to have, but is it really overpowered considering the obvious drawbacks? It also consumes an entire adrenaline bar on cast, which again, could be used on another burst skill on core. It provides benefits, but so does spending that adrenaline bar to make a burst 2 or burst 3 ability more powerful with core.

and that full counter it'self brings more sustain than the whole defense line. making so spellbreaker can sustain better then core while doing better damage at the same time in pvp.

The defense line is full of questionable pips that make me scratch my head every time I look at it. There are only a few pips that are appealing in that tree, and I feel like I punish myself by making myself use it. I'd rather see Defense redesigned than gauge the value of FC in comparison. Some players have said that Defense was deliberately gutted and that they were planning a rework - is this true? I'm new and honestly have limited frame of reference.

The primary value I see from it is as a functional evade/crowd control that clears one boon from each target. I legitimately don't understand the value of it beyond that. Unless I'm misreading the tooltip or the game mechanics. Someone please halp.

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@TugboatSteve.3607 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

Hey, I'm going to try to just bring about some areas where you're missing nuance and see if we can meet some middle ground.

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

It's not a stablet me stop you right there, stab means stability. if you couldn't figure it out.also no matter what excuses you make, full counter is a strong mechanics that out shines the entire defense line and is single-handly carrying warrior for it to have any competitive play at all.

also it has 8 second cooldown because discipline is mandatory.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

Hey, I'm going to try to just bring about some areas where you're missing nuance and see if we can meet some middle ground.

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

It's not a stablet me stop you right there, stab means stability. if you couldn't figure it out.also no matter what excuses you make, full counter is a strong mechanics that out shines the entire defense line and is single-handly carrying warrior for it to have any competitive play at all.

Alright, man, I'll take your word for it, apart from the 8 second CD part which isn't true per https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter (it's 12 seconds in arena). Only off by 50%, so a small amount. Guess I'll L2P Breaker or something. TBH I'm playing core right now, but I realize my breaker build is subopt, primarily because I'm using the clown Defense tree.

(Honestly, I'm going to go back to grinding my Core shout build)

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@TugboatSteve.3607 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

Hey, I'm going to try to just bring about some areas where you're missing nuance and see if we can meet some middle ground.

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

It's not a stablet me stop you right there, stab means stability. if you couldn't figure it out.also no matter what excuses you make, full counter is a strong mechanics that out shines the entire defense line and is single-handly carrying warrior for it to have any competitive play at all.

Alright, man, I'll take your word for it, apart from the 8 second CD part which isn't true per
(it's 12 seconds in arena). Guess I'll L2P Breaker or something. TBH I'm playing core right now, but I realize my breaker build is subopt, primarily because I'm using the clown Defense tree.

like i said"also it has 8 second cooldown because discipline is mandatory."it's a L2P issue because core war is easier to pick up for noob, while spellbreaker takes some more basic understanding of the game. you are just too new.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

Hey, I'm going to try to just bring about some areas where you're missing nuance and see if we can meet some middle ground.

@Lighter.5631 said:Full counter is OP, because it is a block with stab which also stop enemy from attacking every 8 seconds.

It's not a stablet me stop you right there, stab means stability. if you couldn't figure it out.also no matter what excuses you make, full counter is a strong mechanics that out shines the entire defense line and is single-handly carrying warrior for it to have any competitive play at all.

Alright, man, I'll take your word for it, apart from the 8 second CD part which isn't true per
(it's 12 seconds in arena). Guess I'll L2P Breaker or something. TBH I'm playing core right now, but I realize my breaker build is subopt, primarily because I'm using the clown Defense tree.

like i said"also it has 8 second cooldown because discipline is mandatory."it's a L2P issue because core war is easier to pick up for noob, while spellbreaker takes some more basic understanding of the game. you are just too new.

I like to think I know how to do math, but maybe I'm wrong.

12*.85 = 10.2

I'll take your advice on L2P and tinker with breaker.

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