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Thief D/D Insane Damage


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Ok, so I've tried multiple builds to try and get some of the damage numbers I'm getting hit for as a thief from other core d/d thieves.I've tried CS trait line, with zerker/marauder armor-wep/trinkets with scholar runes, assassin signet and I can't get close to some of the numbers I'm seeing.

I've been hit for a 10-11k CnD followed by an 8-9k backstab. This is a single hit without any other condis on me i.e. vuln.

Even with max dmg builds, scholar runes, 25 stack bloodlust, assn sig, I can maybe get a 5-6k CnD and 6-7k backstab.

I just want to know how they are getting this type of damage. The backstab is close, but how in the world am I getting hit for a 10-11k cloak and dagger...

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@alchemyst.2165 said:You could run Deadeye for malicious backstab to get the additional damage, or just run DA/TR/CS.If you're looking for max damage, run executioner in deadly arts, then twin fangs, ferocity trait, and no quarter in critical strikes.

That feels like a good base line build for WvW if someone is trying to land on one, even shortbow auto can cause panic but it can get you focused also which sucks. I like Acro 2-2-3 right now but it's got a different bite and doesn't make use of groups and squads as well.

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Thanks guys! I actually run the pvp d/p build which suits me fine in wvw, I was more looking how in the world I could be hit like that from a core thief. Was more or less just playing around with trying to recreate a hit for that much on CnD.

I can't ask the player(s) -- there are 3 that have done it, 2 in the same guild; because they are anonymous offline. :)

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You mentioned what they might have popped before CnD and whatever stacks they might have. It's not as bad as Starwars Galaxies buff bots but some people are very good at having optimal routes and prep to go out with that might come down to one or two perfect kills.

Think about what is on you at the moment, like the amount of conditions, or the sudden loss of boons.

Think about what quarter your health bar is at and what traits or modifiers can do at different percentages.

In WvW, think about the territory you're in. Some parts of the map will leave you both with your builds only, but some parts will give either them or you a big advantage or disadvantage in stats and defense.

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Probably because they're berserker stats and not marauder, and most roaming builds in the current meta are sustain/offtank. If you mostly play glass, you'll take a lot more damage.They probably have assassin's signet active and use the Signet of Shadows mass vuln for the initial hit, and they likely run DA/CS/Tr or DrD with no dodge traited (since Bounding Dodge can't be used with D/D).

Presence of Keep + food + AS offers a lot of power damage, and as mentioned, both the target's and your current health plays a major part in the thief's access to damage modifiers.

Either way, 11k is very far from the norm, especially on CnD. Those are like pre-assassin's signet nerf/february patch numbers.

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I'd also like to mention CnD's damage is just strictly lower than backstab's. If they're hitting 11k and CnD, and 9k backstab, they're front-stabbing you and would be hitting otherwise for 20k.

I can guarantee you that no thief is hitting you for 20k without a literally perfect scenario with its current numbers. 20k+ was already fairly hard to pull off before the Feb. patch and absolutely required assassin's signet, which since Feb. such a build has had its damage nerfed by quite literally 50% with everything factored in.

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Here some other things to try.

Sigil of Night plus sigil of force on one weapon set.Activating the Assassins signet price prior to backstab.Doing this with lead attacks maxed and or other percent plus adds (your target if a DE , executioner and the like look for those percent adds they are still there)

Something like Runes of the eagle again with that 10 percent add to targets under 50 percent. Combined with executioner you can make some big hits on half health targets. I found those better suited then Scholars as Scholars loses a lot of damage if under 90 percent health.

I also find you have to push your crits to over 90 percent these days. You just can not afford to lose all that damage on your big attacks if you do not crit as you have fewer opportunities to attack in a glassy build. Each hit HAS to count.

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Some interesting ideas. > @DeceiverX.8361 said:

I'd also like to mention CnD's damage is just strictly lower than backstab's. If they're hitting 11k and CnD, and 9k backstab, they're front-stabbing you and would be hitting otherwise for 20k.

I can guarantee you that no thief is hitting you for 20k without a literally perfect scenario with its current numbers. 20k+ was already fairly hard to pull off before the Feb. patch and absolutely required assassin's signet, which since Feb. such a build has had its damage nerfed by quite literally 50% with everything factored in.

That's what I thought too, but --argh, I wish i took a screenshot of it. I was off to the side of our zerg waiting for a wall to come down, no condis on me and no boons either (so its not like i was suddenly stripped by something else and got nailed) -- but still like you said, if CnD is lower than backstab, how was it still that high. I get there are buffs when near owned keep or whatever, but 11k is quite high.

I might deliberatly find one of those two thieves next time we're matched and just stand there and record them killing me lol.

Are there any known instances of getting hit with the same skill simultaneously and it showing up as one hit in combat log?

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Personally I only play glass cannon builds, on my reaper i have been hit for a solid 9k backstab followed by 9k heart seeker spam. I accept it because im full glass. But when you take these hits you gotta look at your bar, did you have 25 stacks of vuln, Did the Thief have assassins signet proced. Is he CS with all that damage modifier. When im on my thief I hit on average 5k backstabs but im basically full Mara. So im guessing he was full glass cannon and so were you. Its just name of the game, no different from a full glass mesmer or Ranger or Rev basically.

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It's most likely 25 Bloodlust Assassin Sig boosted.

That's a ridiculous 790 Power boost, not counting food or utilities.

With damage that high, yu don't need Vuln to drop someone, especially if they are running a low/no toughness build.

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@PeerlessArch.6547 said:Some interesting ideas. > @DeceiverX.8361 said:

I'd also like to mention CnD's damage is just strictly lower than backstab's. If they're hitting 11k and CnD, and 9k backstab, they're front-stabbing you and would be hitting otherwise for 20k.

I can guarantee you that no thief is hitting you for 20k without a literally perfect scenario with its current numbers. 20k+ was already fairly hard to pull off before the Feb. patch and absolutely required assassin's signet, which since Feb. such a build has had its damage nerfed by quite literally 50% with everything factored in.

That's what I thought too, but --argh, I wish i took a screenshot of it. I was off to the side of our zerg waiting for a wall to come down, no condis on me and no boons either (so its not like i was suddenly stripped by something else and got nailed) -- but still like you said, if CnD is lower than backstab, how was it still that high. I get there are buffs when near owned keep or whatever, but 11k is quite high.

I might deliberatly find one of those two thieves next time we're matched and just stand there and record them killing me lol.

Are there any known instances of getting hit with the same skill simultaneously and it showing up as one hit in combat log?

I've personally never seen two separate skills show up as one in combat log. Even with quickness, the cast time between both is slow enough where it's definitely unlikely it wouldn't be able to keep up.

CnD coefficient is 1.25 and backstab is 1.8 - stab should always be hitting about 50% harder unless things like boons and other effects expired by the time the backstab rolled around between the two hits.

The most likely possibility is the person was getting buffed by various damage bonuses from nearby other players such as Assassin's Presence, banners, etc. and hit you with Steal+CnD in the last fractions of a second before they expired from leaving the effect radii, since the hit will pretty much be instant with a precast. Otherwise there really shouldn't be a case where CnD does nearly as much or more damage than backstab if it was a hit from behind, and definitely not a case where a lone thief can hit for 10k CnD + 20k backstab.

It being in a zerg combat environment is likely to get a ton of extra damage from the effects of nearby players. The thief absolutely does not have the ability to hit this hard solo, however, and even then, it'd still be in an optimal or nearly-optimal group environment to buff its damage this highly.

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@Lillbryschan.3281 said:CnD while in One Wolf Pack? Been one shot by a thief this way myself, HS that time though.

Edit: at least what I think it was. Dropped from 100 to 40 in one hit, then the rest like 0,5 sec later. Log only showed 1 HS though.

OWP shows in logs as seperate hits (and it has a minimal delay), not as directly added dmg to the skill that hits.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lillbryschan.3281 said:CnD while in One Wolf Pack? Been one shot by a thief this way myself, HS that time though.

Edit: at least what I think it was. Dropped from 100 to 40 in one hit, then the rest like 0,5 sec later. Log only showed 1 HS though.

OWP shows in logs as seperate hits (and it has a minimal delay), not as directly added dmg to the skill that hits.

Ok. The OWP theory came some time after, so not too sure. It might have been there, only me missing it when checking. Looking only for thief skills I guess. Or some good old wvw lag.

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@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:10k cnd? Never see them numbers. 7k is pushing it

It was doable before the Feb patch on signet builds. Approx 4100 power and 261 crit damage if you built correctly. The problem was the build was still bad and way too difficult for most people to play reasonably well beyond the first target going down assuming they didn't see you coming and couldn't react in time to the CnD damage, because it was 100% engage-based and relied solely on using D/D to survive after that, with no stunbreak, defensive traits, or utilities to navigate away from the fight.8t2w01G.jpg

Currently, the same build is lucky to hit 6k+9k into most medium armor targets without protection, which obviously kills... basically nothing. Maybe a glass marauder ele without defenses up, which is uncommon. They've removed about 30% in damage modifiers and about 55% overall damage from the full glass all-in assassination DA/CS/Tr backstab builds over the last two years between trait reworks and the 30% nerf in February.

Seeing as it carries no disengage and no defenses condition cleanses, stealth, etc., I've rerolled into SA since it does the same damage as DA when factoring mug vs life steal on stealth attacks and venoms, and even then, there's no reason to run any of the signets when ISignet is worse than virtually every other stunbreak on thief + removal of ambient creatures in WvW, ASignet only adds around 2k damage per entire skill rotation due to reduced coefficients and modifiers (SoS is better regardless for the 10 vuln), and SoS is pointless for the passive since everyone has rune of speed and perma-swiftness anyways, and the defenses on other utilities vastly outweigh 10 vuln because it's again, not like you can burst a single target down, regardless. Also, condi meta, so everyone's running dual cleansing sigils at least, meaning the vuln won't stick long enough to make a difference.

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This is mostly the reason why I've been able to get away with dropping durability rune and air sigil on my DE and use antitoxin+cleansing instead.

Those that stuck to bursty type thieves are quite a rare sight to see nowadays. They are like the last of the 1shot KO in the scene (with Slb's).

The big DMG CC patch neutered holos. The subsequent nerfs to nades and explosives further sealed their fate for those that tried the scrapper suprise stealth gyro gankers. Mesmers and plasma beam ele's don't pack the same oomph since and so they do have been dwindling in presence.

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@"aleron.1438" said:This is mostly the reason why I've been able to get away with dropping durability rune and air sigil on my DE and use antitoxin+cleansing instead.

Those that stuck to bursty type thieves are quite a rare sight to see nowadays. They are like the last of the 1shot KO in the scene (with Slb's).

The big DMG CC patch neutered holos. The subsequent nerfs to nades and explosives further sealed their fate for those that tried the scrapper suprise stealth gyro gankers. Mesmers and plasma beam ele's don't pack the same oomph since and so they do have been dwindling in presence.

It's really just that there's absolutely zero incentive to doing so. The stacking damage modifiers which made it even somewhat worthwhile are almost literally all gone. It's down from like 68% to a hair over 20%. Daredevil offers more damage options than CS, and Trickery more than DA outside of PvE via Lead Attacks alone. Then the signet nerfs, then the damage nerf patch, and the -10% damage food... the list goes on.

The weapons which don't offer defenses/utility have no purpose because there just isn't enough damage in the game to justify taking the damage weapons. Heck, the assassination thief build was actually really strong on D/P prior to all the nerfing (discovered years late for some reason when Sind started playing ASignet) because unlike D/D, it still has stealth stacking to pick its engages and disengages whenever it wants (which is really OP and nigh impossible to counter unlike D/D) with a lot of blind and sticking pressure to boot, and if you start a 1v2 by immediately downing the first guy, D/P can out-duel the second by virtue of kit strength with a small skill difference into most builds.

Per the usual, the rationale behind "uncounterable damage" is stemming from underlying issues with some weapon combos and traits just being way too dominant over others, and nothing will get resolved until those interactions are fixed or the other possible options buffed exclusively.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If one focused on percent adds in WvW

You can go DE to get the 10 percent to Iron sight +10 for eagles runes when target under 50 and 20 for Executioner for the same. Obviously this predicated on health at under 50 percent .You can then add in force and night sigil for 15 more . Exposed weakness is in there as well but I would not consider it as more then say 4 percent.

As to signets I find I use the Signet of shadows more. This allows me the eagles runes while still not hitting my land speed too much while adding another blind source with added vuln/weakness. This gives a little boost to what you get from exposed weakness. (6 percent boost if no other conditions were on meaning 6 plus the 10 from vuln). What also nice is it can hit multiples so if you are up close and engaged against two or three the blind can give you an out.

That all said I have found you should invest more in perception/ferocity. It used to be you could do fine with a crit rate base 50 but I find more and more you need it at 90+ so that every shot a crit. You will lose too many matches if you rely on getting a big hit in and then having it not crit and the enemy can recover too fast. With blocks/invulns/dodges and the like a miss hit miss hit better see those two hits crit.

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@babazhook.6805 said:If one focused on percent adds in WvW

You can go DE to get the 10 percent to Iron sight +10 for eagles runes when target under 50 and 20 for Executioner for the same. Obviously this predicated on health at under 50 percent .You can then add in force and night sigil for 15 more . Exposed weakness is in there as well but I would not consider it as more then say 4 percent.

As to signets I find I use the Signet of shadows more. This allows me the eagles runes while still not hitting my land speed too much while adding another blind source with added vuln/weakness. This gives a little boost to what you get from exposed weakness. (6 percent boost if no other conditions were on meaning 6 plus the 10 from vuln). What also nice is it can hit multiples so if you are up close and engaged against two or three the blind can give you an out.

That all said I have found you should invest more in perception/ferocity. It used to be you could do fine with a crit rate base 50 but I find more and more you need it at 90+ so that every shot a crit. You will lose too many matches if you rely on getting a big hit in and then having it not crit and the enemy can recover too fast. With blocks/invulns/dodges and the like a miss hit miss hit better see those two hits crit.

Yeah, going to echo what babaz is saying here. Crit rates can be complex how you get there but the higher the better. Especially for DE which relies so heavily on Malice for damage.

SPvP is harder, but in WvW (and PvE) you can get solo crit chances of 93+. It helps in WvW to pick up an Objective Aura too for a roughly 5% crit chance bonus. Every little bit helps ensure you do the damage you need to do to pressure the opponent(s) before they counter attack.

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