Question of what if...

[Axl.8924]

What if chronomancer and only chronomancer was nerfed high in sustain but shatters have devastating type of damage and were made team players, and what if their tools were retooled to shatter a lot and balanced around having low hp illusions that shattered and calling out cc to shatter for 15k skilfully to kill people?

You would have the counterplay damage you desired kill power and it would fit within pvp no? anyways thats what i think they should do for chrono

[Dadnir.5038]

This would lead to players complaining in the sPvP subforum and then to a nerf that would hurt the profession as a whole instead of just chrono (because, you should know it now, ANet's devs would rather nerf things around a new change than accept readily that this change was the wrong one).

ANet nerfed damage in sPvP/WvW as an answer to a similar suggestion. As a follow up, players have been out for blood for any skill that could deal more than 3-4k damage. You can see that it doesn't really please anyone now and it probably motivate your suggestion but, bringing shatter to 15k will just rekindle the bloodthirst of these players that don't want one shot mechanisms in the game (which would be exacerbated by the fact that players have been neglecting damage reduction stats/traits in order to compensate for their lack of damage).

All in all, your suggestion would be equivalent to kicking an beehive.

[Axl.8924]

But with low hp you can practically 1 shot all of the illusions. It would be the equivalent of necromancers being team players and being focused down if they balance.

Ok maybe not 15k dmg but what about 8k dmg? it has to be enough dmg to give a risk reward.

Also: I was thinking more along the lines of: somehow getting all 4-5 illusions to shatter onto a person to deal a lot of damage which is what 3k per shatter?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Axl.8924 said:But with low hp you can practically 1 shot all of the illusions. It would be the equivalent of necromancers being team players and being focused down if they balance.

Ok maybe not 15k dmg but what about 8k dmg? it has to be enough dmg to give a risk reward.

Also: I was thinking more along the lines of: somehow getting all 4-5 illusions to shatter onto a person to deal a lot of damage which is what 3k per shatter?

mesmer is trash and leave it be, nothing will change, if its remotely viable people will cry out for blood.

[Axl.8924]

But why? don't you want it to be viable?

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Axl.8924" said:But why? don't you want it to be viable?

We do, but history has shown us that whenever mesmer is "ok", everyone cries how OP we are and we get nerfed from "doable" to "completely trash" because of other people whining about us. Ironically, we never got nerfed when something was actually OP. Because nothing was ever OP on a mesmer.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:But why? don't you want it to be viable?

We do, but history has shown us that whenever mesmer is "ok", everyone cries how OP we are and we get nerfed from "doable" to "completely trash" because of other people whining about us. Ironically, we never got nerfed when something was actually OP. Because nothing was ever OP on a mesmer.

there was and still is some OP things, but my perspective on the matter is that EVERYONE has overpowered skills, and this is how classes are made unique and interesting.problem is that mesmer has very little of them and very niche. I just made ranger to play with a new friend, and having gs2 on fucking 4s cd is such a nice thing... so unused to not having 1 year long cds ;p

[Axl.8924]

I just had a inspiration idea of how possibly chrono could work in SPVP without being overpowered but it wasn't 100% perfect due to not understanding the mechanics as well as you guys. I was just thinking and thinking well: hold on if it were like this then wouldn't it be considered balanced in anets eyes? after all the idea of balance is counterplay no? and it would have counterplay since illusions easily die.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Axl.8924 said:I just had a inspiration idea of how possibly chrono could work in SPVP without being overpowered but it wasn't 100% perfect due to not understanding the mechanics as well as you guys. I was just thinking and thinking well: hold on if it were like this then wouldn't it be considered balanced in anets eyes? after all the idea of balance is counterplay no? and it would have counterplay since illusions easily die.

what do you mean ?

[Axl.8924]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I just had a inspiration idea of how possibly chrono could work in SPVP without being overpowered but it wasn't 100% perfect due to not understanding the mechanics as well as you guys. I was just thinking and thinking well: hold on if it were like this then wouldn't it be considered balanced in anets eyes? after all the idea of balance is counterplay no? and it would have counterplay since illusions easily die.

what do you mean ?

I mean that if chronomancer has to land all 5 illusions to do big damage i think its balanced and killing it gets rid of that damage, thus balancing out the risk reward aspect for chrono.

It would have what others call counterplay. It would also give viability and possibly make chrono fun.

[Dadnir.5038]

I think you don't grasp the possibilities of the mesmer properly. The main issue is that by doing what you suggest you will have mesmers more or less pidgeonholing themself into a "One shot from stealth" gameplay. This gameplay have already been used and isn't especially difficult to pull of (1 invisibility skill, GS#2, mirror image and burst with F1. Congratulation, your foe took more than 15k damage before being able to react or even see you if they are australians. You can also count on the sword option: Sw#3.1, Sw#3.2, Sw#2, mirror image, F1 -> the good old shattercat), bringing it back will only hurt the mesmer afterward more than it already is.

[Axl.8924]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I think you don't grasp the possibilities of the mesmer properly. The main issue is that by doing what you suggest you will have mesmers more or less pidgeonholing themself into a "One shot from stealth" gameplay. This gameplay have already been used and isn't especially difficult to pull of (1 invisibility skill, GS#2, mirror image and burst with F1. Congratulation, your foe took more than 15k damage before being able to react or even see you if they are australians. You can also count on the sword option: Sw#3.1, Sw#3.2, Sw#2, mirror image, F1 -> the good old shattercat), bringing it back will only hurt the mesmer afterward more than it already is.

I didn't even mention stealth, don't know where you got that idea. Like i said: my idea was to have your group help cc for you in group situations not 1v1 where you wait for cc and use shatter in the right moment to deal damage.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Axl.8924 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I think you don't grasp the possibilities of the mesmer properly. The main issue is that by doing what you suggest you will have mesmers more or less pidgeonholing themself into a "One shot from stealth" gameplay. This gameplay have already been used and isn't especially difficult to pull of (1 invisibility skill, GS#2,

mirror image

and burst with F1. Congratulation, your foe took more than 15k damage before being able to react or even see you if they are australians. You can also count on the sword option: Sw#3.1, Sw#3.2, Sw#2,

mirror image

, F1 -> the good old shattercat), bringing it back will only hurt the mesmer afterward more than it already is.

I didn't even mention stealth, don't know where you got that idea. Like i said: my idea was to have your group help cc for you in group situations not 1v1 where you wait for cc and use shatter in the right moment to deal damage.

I'm only pointing to you where your suggestion lead. The mesmer already own these abilities (Torch#4, veil, mass invisibility and we should not forget that mesmer is a treasure trove of CC by himself), increasing shatter damage even at the cost of illusions being easier to destroy can only lead to that. 1v1 capabilities impact any group capabilities whether we like it or not (beside, players that got owned while alone tend to cry even louder than players that got owned while in group).

I know that you've got a nice picture of what it's supposed to create but players are and will always turn things in their own way. Shatters are already strong enough, in fact there is already so much investment in shatter that it's starting to become a rigid mechanism. For mesmer's own good, ANet shouldn't put "more" into shatter (and that is outside the fact that mental anguish already increase your shatter damage by 20% if your foes aren't casting skill, a situation in which a CC'd foe is).

[Veprovina.4876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:But why? don't you want it to be viable?

We do, but history has shown us that whenever mesmer is "ok", everyone cries how OP we are and we get nerfed from "doable" to "completely trash" because of other people whining about us. Ironically, we never got nerfed when something was actually OP. Because nothing was ever OP on a mesmer.

there was and still is some OP things, but my perspective on the matter is that EVERYONE has overpowered skills, and this is how classes are made unique and interesting.problem is that mesmer has very little of them and very niche. I just made ranger to play with a new friend, and having gs2 on kitten 4s cd is such a nice thing... so unused to not having 1 year long cds ;p

Tell me about it. I alt a Berserker and a Revenant. Its so nice when all your skills are consistent and actually do damage.But that's my point, why shouldn't Mesemer be good at something? Everyone else is.

[Axl.8924]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:But why? don't you want it to be viable?

We do, but history has shown us that whenever mesmer is "ok", everyone cries how OP we are and we get nerfed from "doable" to "completely trash" because of other people whining about us. Ironically, we never got nerfed when something was actually OP. Because nothing was ever OP on a mesmer.

there was and still is some OP things, but my perspective on the matter is that EVERYONE has overpowered skills, and this is how classes are made unique and interesting.problem is that mesmer has very little of them and very niche. I just made ranger to play with a new friend, and having gs2 on kitten 4s cd is such a nice thing... so unused to not having 1 year long cds ;p

Tell me about it. I alt a Berserker and a Revenant. Its so nice when all your skills are consistent and actually do damage.But that's my point, why shouldn't Mesemer be good at something? Everyone else is.

So am i mistaken is chrono viable in SPVP? that was the whole reason i thought of this because i heard it wasn't good.

And if so then if the excuse to not buff something if its needed because other players will cry op op defeatism?

[Yasai.3549]

Too complicated, just make Clones invincible and untargetable.

The only reason that Mesmers get dabbed on is because Clones and Phantasms are such an unreliable source of damage due to the simple fact that they can be interrupted and/or killed.

Phantasms being susceptable to interruption and damage, whatever.Makes no sense that Shatters, when activated and are running to their target, can still be killed essentially nullifying that attack and putting it into cooldown anyway.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Axl.8924 said:But why? don't you want it to be viable?

We do, but history has shown us that whenever mesmer is "ok", everyone cries how OP we are and we get nerfed from "doable" to "completely trash" because of other people whining about us. Ironically, we never got nerfed when something was actually OP. Because nothing was ever OP on a mesmer.

there was and still is some OP things, but my perspective on the matter is that EVERYONE has overpowered skills, and this is how classes are made unique and interesting.problem is that mesmer has very little of them and very niche. I just made ranger to play with a new friend, and having gs2 on kitten 4s cd is such a nice thing... so unused to not having 1 year long cds ;p

Tell me about it. I alt a Berserker and a Revenant. Its so nice when all your skills are consistent and actually do damage.But that's my point, why shouldn't Mesemer be good at something? Everyone else is.

So am i mistaken is chrono viable in SPVP? that was the whole reason i thought of this because i heard it wasn't good.

And if so then if the excuse to not buff something if its needed because other players will cry op op defeatism?

It's not viable anywhere really. :tongue:I'm not against buffing mesmers, i mean, look at the threads in this subforum, every other thread complains how badly the mesmers are treated.But the reality is that Anet doesn't want mesmers to be good. Or they don't care. Or whatever, i don't know why they're so hard on mesmers.

I'd love to have strong shatters, i mean, anything on a memser currently is a joke. Shatters are weak, clones die instantly in WvW, no support capabilities, weak boonstrip...

But the reality is that even stronger shatters wouldn't solve mesmers issues because those issues go way deeper than just some damage number modifications.

For instance, if you buff shatters for sPvP, they're still worthless in WvW because you'll never have even 1 clone to shatter, they'll die due to low HP. Now, in sPvP you can get away with that mechanic, but in WvW that still has nothing to do with your skill and wouldn't change a thing. You're at the mercy of the core mechanic that is weak, unreliable and completely broken at times (as is the case with some phantasms).

So any damage modifications will never have impact on skill when you're not in control of the mechanics. To be "skillful" you need reliable mechanics to work with. If something works once, but doesn't 3 times after that, and then starts working again 5 times in a row, that's not skill, that's luck and you're at the mercy of it when you play the class.

They need to dig deeper to fix mesmer, not just slap a few damage modifiers and call it a day.Like they did with mirage. Just remove a dodge without any thought whatsoever on how that will affect literally every other aspect of the gameplay. Dodge not only gives you ambush skills and damage, but also evasion, and with 1 dodge it is impossible to get out of even 1 bigger AOE, let alone it being viable in group fights, or simmilar. It's not even viable anymore 1v1. Especially since you no longer do damage.

Those are the types of "fixes" anet does for mesmers. Something that is not thought through or at all, and is based on other classes crying because they can't tell the difference between a real mesmer and a clone (which is the point of the class). So they "fix" us by making us weak in every aspect on top of us already having bad core mechanics that never work.

So tldr; i don't mind your suggestion, i just think that it's not what we need right now, we need something way bigger and thorough to make the class on par with others. And since there was almost never a buff to the class, people are demoralized and have given up, and i don't blame them. There's only so much abuse you can take in what is supposed to be entertainment before you go "screw it, i'm out".