unhappy mac player - [Merged]

[voltaicbore.8012]

@Sol.6340 said:I've logged thousands of hours in the game and just spent over $100 in gems, and ANet is just telling me that I'm not a valuable player. There are dozens if not more ways to allow Mac players to continue to play without having to invest in new hardware or switching to the PC world. Especially during the time of the pandemic, this is an extremely poor decision. I'm disappointed, I'm angry, and I'm unable to comprehend why there's almost no notice on ANet's part (they've known for at least 2 years this was going to be an issue) and also just... depressed. WvW was my game mode of choice, I spent countless hours playing, defending, and making friends and in one slash you've taken that all away from me. There are no words to describe how upset I am.

Poor choice. All the way around.

• Persistence (Purrsi), Carissa

All is not lost. Just like many Mac users who find ways to use Windows programs on their Apple machines for work purposes, the exact same thing can be done with the Windows client for GW2. It might sound daunting if you've never done it, but anyone with even passing experience with IT can assure you that it's not hard. I'm sure Reddit threads on how to get Windows GW2 to run on Mac will be pushed to the forefront, if they're not already.

[Sobx.1758]

No, it's not. And it's apple that "drops you" (and devs), not anet.

---

[this comment doesn't make much sense now, as it was referencing the title of "Dropping Mac is Ultimately the Beginning of the End" thread, now merged with this one]

[Veprovina.4876]

Apple is telling you that gaming is not worthy of your time, not Anet. They forced Anet's hand. Had they continued support for OpenGL instead of saying they'll drop it, and continued to produce x86 x64 architecture chips this wouldn't have happened. As it is, sadly, not everyone has the resources to re-code everything from scratch to support the new architecture and drivers while also doing exactly that for a completely different system. Because that's what it's come to now. Apple wants to be different and closed from everything else so they can have control over everything that happens on their platform. On one hand that's cool for security and stuff, probably performance too, but it comes with a big caveat as we've now come to see...

That being said, you can still use tons of really good options to run the Windows client on a Mac, the hardware is certainly capable if you have one of the beefier ones, and i think it still can be done on M1 for now, so just use that.

But yeah, it sucks, i feel you... Blame Apple, their the ones responsible for this, it's been a trend for a long time - making their systems increasingly closed and anti consumer, and honestly, people should have seen that coming.

They make great monitors though!

EDIT: Also, if you buy a cheap laptop or a cheap desktop PC, it should run Guild Wars more or less fine (when they eventually optimise the client/server). So i don't think you need to spend a lot of money if you want a PC to play Guild Wars 2 on. I know it's not ideal compared to playing it on what you already own but, idk.. I'm sure there's some people that know some cheap ways of getting it to run. I know this all sucks, but yeah... Currently, Apple forced everyone to either adapt or gtfo and well, not everyone can. :disappointed:

[Solvar.7953]

Apple is notorious for giving few details about upcoming releases (when the release will happen, what will be in it). I suspect Anet wants to get ahead of this, and doesn't want to be surprised by Apple releasing the next OS with very little notice that removes support for OpenGL, and people unable to play when they update to that OS. Now they have potentially give lots of refunds (anyone who is not going to play anymore and bought things recently), explain to players why they can't play, etc.And as other have mentioned, there is the cost to develop and maintain the MacOS version. Even if it works right now, every time they do a new build, they need to do some amount of testing on it to make sure nothing breaks, and especially any new features work. And if they know they are going to drop support, it then becomes a business decision - does it make sense to keep supporting it for 6 more months, and then end support then? Or better to end support now and take those resources that are maintaining & testing it and have them doing something else.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I am often critical of the current iteration of Arenanet and the choices they make, but this one is entirely Apple's fault. Anet's just too small and has too limited resources to keep up with Apple's changes and other bullshit. Your claim that Anet's going to drop going to start dropping other systems or hardware willy-nilly is unnecessary hyperbole, nor is your claim that GW2 requires a computer that costs thousands of dollars, you could play this game on a computer that costs a fraction of what you paid for that Mac you have. Or you could do as Veprovina suggested and run Windows on your Mac, the other threads on this Mac issue have people posting workarounds just like this and ow to do them.

[Veprovina.4876]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"Sol.6340" said:Tell me, you're wvw players aren't you? I wasn't looking to get flamed, and that's all sorts of rude. I'm expressing my displeasure and that's allowed. Bug off.

No, while I dabble now and then, I don't qualify as a WvW player. And if you think that any of the above responses were "Flaming" you either need to learn how discussions and criticisms work between adults or just spend less time on the internet. Also this is a forum open to all GW2 players, so while you started this thread you don't

OWN

this thread, anyone can respond to you however they want within the bounds of the forum rules.

All we did was point out the truth of the matter, that Anet didn't have a choice in the matter, Apple were the ones that forced their and with their changes and proprietary kitten. We also tried to help you to continue playing this game with suggestions of work-arounds, but if you're going to become personally offended that we didn't immediately agree with you and similarly decry Arenanet as the worst thing ever, then you can get your own help. I don't care anymore.

Aaaand seconded. :smile:Except i am a WvW player, not that it matters what mode i play at all in this conversation lol.

Don't you just love it when you try to help someone and they tell you to bugger off?

[Fenom.9457]

Ok well correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding of the post was that Apple is dropping support and anet is out of things they can do - it’s going to stop working and they can’t fix that. This is all on Apple. It’s not great by any means, but blaming anet is misplaced. And your account will still exist - not much help to many people I suppose, but at least if you ever do get a gaming computer (or a pc at all I guess), you can play again

[Nephalem.8921]

@Sol.6340 said:... spend thousands of dollars on a computer only to be told, again with little or no warning, that my operating system/graphics card/whatever is no longer viable? ...

You dont have to spend 1000 on a pc. Not sold by apple afterall. 600 are probably more than enough. The good thing about a pc is that you can upgrade just your graphics card if its too weak.You dont have to buy a new computer like with macs all the time.

[Nephalem.8921]

@tetmikem.5608 said:

@Dayra.7405 said:If you want a computer for gaming you shouldn't buy a Mac, and if you can affort a Mac, you don't really care about a little bit more money for an additional windows gaming computer :)

Absolutely not true, even if you are just being flippant.

The first part is true though. I get if you dont like windows but you could still game on linux with some workarounds. You get a lot better hardware for the same price that way.Getting high end hardware in a mac is just incredible expensive.

[Fuchslein.8639]

My gaming PC is now 6 years old. When I put it together back then, it cost me about 700€ because I needed everything, including the monitor. The only thing I have changed in the last 6 years was the graphics card and I have added Ram (for GW2) and a second monitor. And I can play latest games on Ultra with it without any problems.I was interested in the Ipad Pro for a long time because I draw a lot and love BJ, Youtube got me hooked. Do you know how much that would have cost? Exactly over 1kI ended up getting a Samsung Tab for half that and still don't regret it.

What I'm trying to say. I doubt THIS will be the end of GW2. On the contrary, most people who can afford Apple can also buy laptops or PC's for gaming (from 500€+ you can get good laptops and excellent pc's). If they don't already have one. I know many people who use Apple + gaming laptop.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I admit, sometimes I don't understand Apple's business practises.

I mean, I have a bias for Vulkan because I game on Linux as well but here's the thing: A good number of developers have been using Vulkan on Windows, Nintendo uses it on their Switch console, and its adoption is rising. Not only that, but it's the successor to OpenGL and a natural way to evolve from anything that uses OpenGL.

If Apple had decided to support Vulkan instead? You'd have a better Wine experience. However, shifting from OpenGL to Metal at the same time as switching from x64 architecture to ARM was... foolish. ArenaNet isn't the only developer who simply just does not have the resources to make these changes. You have to understand that it would require a substantial recreation of much of the code running within their currently used engine to work moving forward.

On top of that—ArenaNet would be forced to choose between supporting x64 (Intel) architecture or ARM architecture. So they'd likely have to abandon one of these anyway due to their limited resources, which would still make some fans happy. Let me try to put this in perspective a little bit, if I may? Asking for an Apple Silicon port of Guild Wars 2 is like asking for a Raspberry Pi port of Guild Wars 2.

Now, Linux users don't have a native port—they use Wine. As I understand, a lot of progress has been made with the performance of both Wine64 and DXVK on x64 Macs. So do what Linux people have had to do since day one and use Wine64. If you don't want to compile it, you can probably find precompiled binaries out there for your platform, I imagine. The same would probably be true for DXVK.

Just use a guide for setting up a Wine64 environment and use that to run the 64-bit Windows client for Guild Wars 2. This is your best option moving forward. If you have chosen to use Silicon? Well... The capacity seems to be there to run Guild Wars 2 in perhaps not the most performant way but it is there. The Catalina version of the client runs under Rosetta. I wouldn't mind betting, if I'm honest, that performance might actually be better under Wine64 than it is with the native Catalina client.

At the end of the day though, the ball rests in Apple's court and it's entirely unfair to blame anyone else. The problem is is that ArenaNet is owned by a publically traded corp who's always going to fixate on their bottom-line for their shareholders. If it's hugely unprofitable to sink money into developing Metal-based (which is a dead-end API, of that there can be no doubt), then ArenaNet has to make the call to abandon Mac. Otherwise they might make their company look undesirable to NCSoft.

This is a point I bring up a lot.

An investor corp recently bought a dominating share in Intel and now they're making demands that Intel stop making their own chips. This is what you have to deal with as a publically traded company—you're beholden to your shareholders. And the kind of leaders that shareholders want are often the cut-throat types who'll maximise profits above all else. Forward-thinking isn't exactly their forte.

So whilst it might be possible that Mac would lead to more profitability in the future—maybe even the distant future, if Guild Wars 2 lives that long—it would take a big hit to profitability in the immediate future. This is something that would be untenable to their shareholders. I know, I hate capitalism too.

This puts a very small company like ArenaNet in a difficult spot. They have to upset their Mac fans, they don't really have any choice. Their hands are tied. The only choices they have available to them are a.) Abandon Mac because ARM and Metal are simply too expensive to develop for, or b.) Sink their own ship trying. In all honesty, I'd like to think no one's greed is great enough that they'd want to see so many people lose their jobs, especially when they're happy working there. I'm not saying this as a manipulation, but simply as a matter of fact. ArenaNet is one of the good developers, and you can see this in how happy those working there are. The current leadership seems to be doing well, by both NCSoft and their employees.

Please understand that Apple did something that's actively hostile to game developers of their own volition. Instead of adopting industry standards, they took the hipster, status-symbol path of adopting fancy new technologies before they were even nearly ready. Both Silicon and Metal are half-baked and I doubt they'll last. It isn't because I don't think that chips like ARM are the future—to the contrary, I could easily see that being the case—but rather that now wasn't the time to adopt them. Compounding the adoption of ARM with a graphical API that only a niche Apple audience would patronise? That's a bad decision.

What I'm getting at is that only the big names with big money are going to be able to bankroll the development of anything for ARM and Metal. See, this isn't like making a Linux port because both Linux and Windows have OpenGL and Vulkan available to them, just as Linux and Windows use x64 chips. The only difference between the two is the operating system: Windows or Linux. What Apple has done is made it far more viable to develop for Linux instead.

Now, when Mac was running on x64 and had access to OpenGL, it had these portability paths. Does that make sense? OpenGL is on other platforms, it's well known and easy to use. The biggest pool of gamers is on x64 architecture. It made porting to Mac a small expenditure compared to what it would be now.

The way ArenaNet looks at it is that it's better to cut off Mac fans now rather than deal with demands for Silicon, it's better to deal with this now rather than later because of the expense. ArenaNet is looking at a shrinking market of users on Intel architecture chips, a vanishing market, and NCSoft will be paying close attention to that too. Why continue to spend money on a tiny market that's shrinking by the day?

Apple has made it so that it's no longer viable for small companies to even support x64 Macs as they're now a dead platform. It's like continuing to support the XBox One X after the release of the XBox Series X.

None of this is the fault of ArenaNet—they have to keep NCSoft happy.

The thing is—and I'm sorry to say this—is that for a long time Apple users will be heading back into the dark ages of the Apple computer. That isn't the fault of anyone but Apple for rushing to adopt half-baked technologies that simply aren't ready. This is something that Apple does. I mean, sure, it's nice to feel like you're some kind of fancy elite, but you're a fancy elite that doesn't play PC video games—you're a fancy elite that plays mobile games in desktop environments.

These feel like some sick burns but it isn't intentional, it's just reality. I've tried to explain this to friends before but many don't seem to understand what it's like to be a company that's owned by a publically-traded corporation. So please try to understand.

Moving forward, you'll see an initial burst of interest from the biggest names. This will probably have something to do with Apple quietly handing them big bags of money in the background. That won't last. The market share is big enough to develop for an environment where only the operating system is different, but it isn't big enough to be worth the cost of developing for both a new chip architecture and a new API.

You're going to see indies and smaller devs drop off first as they can't just cross-compile. It won't be a simple matter of porting anymore as the portability paths won't be there. There's no valid path for going from x64 and DirectX/Vulkan/OpenGL to ARM and Metal. It's too big of a risk. Before, it was a throwaway effort and now it isn't. How do I explain this? I know people like car analogies so let's try that. Let's say that there's a company that creates car interiors to a Universal standard that's been adopted by numerous car manufacturers. Suddenly, they switch to something else that only they're using, the layout is different, the size and shape of the seats, none of it fits the existing standards being used by car manufacturers.

Now, since this maker of interiors is desirable, one or two big car manufacturers might start a production line of cars designed for these new interiors but most won't. In the long run though it might not be profitable for even them to do it so even some of the biggest might decide to pull out early due to the costs of building all those extra production lines.

That's effectively what Apple has done. There are existing Universal standards which everyone uses that they've chosen to shirk.

I don't know if anyone is going to bother to read this but being angry at ArenaNet is pointless. You could be angry at NCSoft's shareholders, I suppose, but they're doing what shareholders will always do—protecting their bottom-line. Money is dopamine. That's not going to change. You can't be angry at ArenaNet because they have to do whatever makes NCSoft happy, that's just the way of it. The only ones to be angry at are Apple for, once again, adopting half-baked technologies—of both hardware and software—that absolutely no one beyond hobbyists is using.

Guild Wars 2 is just going to be the first game gone. This is the beginning of a long, long drought of games, a dry period where almost no desktop games will be released for Mac platforms and the only options will be mobile games.

If you want desktop games, you have to adhere to the standards—they eixst for a reason. Like it or not, this is a capitalist world so you want the most customers. That isn't going to be people using Apple devices running on ARM and using the Metal API moving forward. In fact, Apple's desktop market is likely to shrink as it did in their silly PowerPC drought. This is just the PowerPC days all over again and... It's Apple being Apple. They do this. If you buy an Apple device, this is what you're buying into.

It's going to lead to a lot of Apple users—because of the coming drought of desktop games—switching to PCs with x64 architecture again. This is Apple's choice. They had to know this would happen. It's all about being a status symbol and making their home machines an elite club again. It really is Apple being Apple.

You can't blame anyone but Apple for Apple being Apple. Ask older Apple users what the PowerPC days were like, and consider jumping ship.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Sol.6340 said:I've logged thousands of hours in the game and just spent over $100 in gems, and ANet is just telling me that I'm not a valuable player. There are dozens if not more ways to allow Mac players to continue to play without having to invest in new hardware or switching to the PC world. Especially during the time of the pandemic, this is an extremely poor decision. I'm disappointed, I'm angry, and I'm unable to comprehend why there's almost no notice on ANet's part (they've known for at least 2 years this was going to be an issue) and also just... depressed. WvW was my game mode of choice, I spent countless hours playing, defending, and making friends and in one slash you've taken that all away from me. There are no words to describe how upset I am.

Poor choice. All the way around.

• Persistence (Purrsi), Carissa

Which ones? Name a few please. Anet will not block you out of their game. They just wont give you a native client anymore.There are still ways to run the windows client on mac. Multiple other studios already made the decision and more will make the same. Native support for mac is not worth it unless a port is simple and in anets case it wouldnt be simple at all. OpenGLsupport discontinued. Now if gw would use vulkan instead it could be possible with moltenvk but will most likely not happen.Vulkan could also help with performance problems but changing the api this late would require a lot more engine devs than they currently have.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Can> @Fuchslein.8639 said:

My gaming PC is now 6 years old. When I put it together back then, it cost me about 700€ because I needed everything, including the monitor. The only thing I have changed in the last 6 years was the graphics card and I have added Ram (for GW2) and a second monitor. And I can play latest games on Ultra with it without any problems.I was interested in the Ipad Pro for a long time because I draw a lot and love kitten, Youtube got me hooked. Do you know how much that would have cost? Exactly over 1kI ended up getting a Samsung Tab for half that and still don't regret it.

What I'm trying to say. I doubt THIS will be the end of GW2. On the contrary, most people who can afford Apple can also buy laptops or PC's for gaming (from 500€+ you can get good laptops and excellent pc's). If they don't already have one. I know many people who use Apple + gaming laptop.

Can't say I'd recommend gaming laptops, I used them for a number of years myself and to be frank they just aren't worth the money. For the most part you can't upgrade them, they have a lot of heating issues, they don't last as long, and generally aren't worth what you pay for them. Build your own desktop, its what I did last year after my last gaming laptop died. Its surprisingly easy to do, I mean, if I could pull it off anyone else could too.

[Dragon Priestess.9760]

My man, this is Apple's fault, not Anet's.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

seriously... another doom and gloom post?.. Tiresome...

Just get a PC and move on with your life, since you get triggered by people in here just trying to help you...

Sorry not sorry...

[Fuchslein.8639]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Can> @Fuchslein.8639 said:

My gaming PC is now 6 years old. When I put it together back then, it cost me about 700€ because I needed everything, including the monitor. The only thing I have changed in the last 6 years was the graphics card and I have added Ram (for GW2) and a second monitor. And I can play latest games on Ultra with it without any problems.I was interested in the Ipad Pro for a long time because I draw a lot and love kitten, Youtube got me hooked. Do you know how much that would have cost? Exactly over 1kI ended up getting a Samsung Tab for half that and still don't regret it.

What I'm trying to say. I doubt THIS will be the end of GW2. On the contrary, most people who can afford Apple can also buy laptops or PC's for gaming (from 500€+ you can get good laptops and excellent pc's). If they don't already have one. I know many people who use Apple + gaming laptop.

Can't say I'd recommend gaming laptops, I used them for a number of years myself and to be frank they just aren't worth the money. For the most part you can't upgrade them, they have a lot of heating issues, they don't last as long, and generally aren't worth what you pay for them. Build your own desktop, its what I did last year after my last gaming laptop died. Its surprisingly easy to do, I mean, if I could pull it off anyone else could too.

I did not recommend anything. Only shared my experience. And even if laptops are not the best, many still prefer a laptop.For example, I have a friend who has a gaming laptop instead of a pc because of space issues. That this is more expensive and not as durable as a PC is no question.

[Shaogin.2679]

@Sol.6340 said:I've logged thousands of hours in the game and just spent over $100 in gems, and ANet is just telling me that I'm not a valuable player. There are dozens if not more ways to allow Mac players to continue to play without having to invest in new hardware or switching to the PC world. Especially during the time of the pandemic, this is an extremely poor decision. I'm disappointed, I'm angry, and I'm unable to comprehend why there's almost no notice on ANet's part (they've known for at least 2 years this was going to be an issue) and also just... depressed. WvW was my game mode of choice, I spent countless hours playing, defending, and making friends and in one slash you've taken that all away from me. There are no words to describe how upset I am.

Poor choice. All the way around.

• Persistence (Purrsi), Carissa

I mean, it is Apple's fault, not Anet's. But of course you already know this by now. And why do people always lead with all the hours and money they wasted on the game, as if that matters in the slightest? No matter how long you've been playing or how much you've spent, you are but a grain of sand amongst the dessert. Maybe you should go to Apple's forums instead and let them know how angry you are.

[Cyninja.2954]

I get it. Players come to the forums, complain about game related stuff. Complain about balance. It makes sense.

I mean sure, we could lay the blame with Arenanet. Why isn't GW2 more successful as to warrant a larger studio and more developers? That would have maybe allowed multi OS development.

We could lay the blame with players and the way this game is monetized. Why is GW2 one of the least expensive MMORPGs to play? Why are players not willing or forced to spend more as to increase revenue? More revenue again might have lead to more developers, a bigger studio and maybe the ability to manage multi OS development.

In this case though, sorry but the blame lies neither with Arenanet, nor with the players. The blame lies completely with Apple.

[Naxos.2503]

OP didn't read the dev post further than the title.

[maddoctor.2738]

A simple forum search would show you there are multiple threads on the subject

[tetmikem.5608]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@tetmikem.5608 said:

@Dayra.7405 said:If you want a computer for gaming you shouldn't buy a Mac, and if you can affort a Mac, you don't really care about a little bit more money for an additional windows gaming computer :)

Absolutely not true, even if you are just being flippant.

The first part is true though. I get if you dont like windows but you could still game on linux with some workarounds. You get a lot better hardware for the same price that way.Getting high end hardware in a mac is just incredible expensive.

Ok, yeah the first part is true. I was talking about the second part. I didn't get a Mac for gaming, I got it for photography work. But having spent so much on a macbook, I definitely didn't have funds left over for an additional windows gaming rig!

[Raknar.4735]

Not Anet's fault. Anet doesn't have any saying on what Apple is doing with their platforms.

As the community and your friends are what you'll be missing, may I suggest creating something like a Discord server as an alternative place to meet, as long as you don't have access to the game? Even if you're unable to play, this way you will still be able to connect to your peers until you find another way to play GW2.

(Technically speaking, the "Beginning of the end" of GW2 was the creation of GW2, as something has to exist in order to end.)

[aspirine.6852]

Afaik Diablo 4, not the smallest franchise in the world, also will not be doing a Mac supported game. If I remember correctly. It's not the game devs but the arrogant apple that is at fault here..

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

The nerve of apple supporters never ceases to amaze me. This is purely Apple's fault for dropping support for the infrastructure used for almost all games. Take your complaints up with Apple because, I'm certain that if Apple didn't drop support for OpenGL, or at least kept it as usable on the new systems, there wouldn't be an issue.

[Luthan.5236]

I think it can also be an opportunity to locate resources to other stuff. (Though the resources they might want to spend on the game might just get lower in general.) Personally I don't like Mac. When I saw the thread title I wanted to make a joke like "time to buy a real computer". (If you don't have one besides the Mac - for other games that do not support mac.)

But after reading the OP ... I can understand him a bit. Probably not playing that many other games besides GW2. And it is similar for me. I basically only watch anime + GW2 and some indie games or RPG maker games. I have a non-mac computer. But very old/low specs. I would be in a similar situation if they suddenly increased the system minimum requirements. (Cause some people sometimes want graphics updates and stuff.)

The game being easily accessible to lots of people is a main factor for selling - combined with how it targets a broad audience of casuals instead of (compared to others) focusing only on a handful hardcore gamers.

Hopefully the Nvidia think can help as workaround. With Steam actually they seemed to try getting more people ( maybe people that are too lazy to register accounts here but have a steam account - or just for the attention that steam brings). Even that got put on hold/delay in favor of the upcoming expansion now.