unhappy mac player - [Merged]

[FrizzFreston.5290]

Its like asking to allow your personal formula 1 race car to be able to drive on public roads. Sure to some extend its possible, and the infrastructure can be adapted to your fancy machine. But this comes at a cost, sometimes it just costs too much and then your fancy car is sadly not supported on your usual roads.

Is it the people who make the roads or the people who buy the incompatible machine?

[Radiobiology.6185]

Make sure you get that refund they offered, maybe it will help with buying a windows pc.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Roads.5130 said:

@Sol.6340 said:Tell me, you're wvw players aren't you? I wasn't looking to get flamed, and that's all sorts of rude. I'm expressing my displeasure and that's allowed. Bug off.

The thing is you are just pointing the finger at the wrong person. And for some reason also denying the possibility of a solution to losing all those years of wonderful memories and community and everything else.

Sometimes the machine you own is more valuable than the friendships you made and maintained with them.

[Astralporing.1957]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Arenanet has not said anyone on Mac OS cannot play the game. They stated they will not

support

any users with issues and it's no surprise given the complaint thread this past month by someone getting support information that was incorrect or outdated.

They explicitly said they're sunsetting the game client:

Starting February 18 , we will be discontinuing support for the Mac OS version of Guild Wars 2. This means the Mac client will no longer work after this date.

You can still find workarounds for running GW2 but it's not as simple as "we give up on support tickets," they're literally turning off users' current client at a specified date.They are not "turning it off". They will

stop updating it

. Unfortunately, client needs to be updated every patch, to be inline with the rest of the game, so it will become obsolete at that date, as it will be a patch day.

TL/DR: you will still have a working client, not a "disabled" one. Unfortunately, this client will be obsolete and no longer compatible with the game.

[Pandora X.2063]

Parallels now works with Apple Silicon, and by all accounts runs Windows 10 better than most Intel PC's do natively. And plus you don't feel like you're sitting in front of a box full of turbines.

And this is merely with the first entry-level M1 chips. These are the worst and slowest chips Apple will be making, going forward, and things will only get better.

[maddoctor.2738]

@BnooMaGoo.5690 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@BnooMaGoo.5690 said:I've been playing for almost 6 years.I can continue possibly if I go through Nvidia meaning I can play one hour a day for free or I can pay another amount to buy a membership.Not sure what I will be doing.You can blame Apple & there might me some truth to it but that's between the businesses.Where does it leave the player?

Koda the judge & kodan the jury.Yes I could use Bluestacks or some other windows emulator.But that seems counter-productive.It's like how bad do you want to play, customer?Not my idea of customer service/player support but I have a few decades of life before the internet & video games.Thanks for the tips.

Just curious... have you made a similar complaint/thread on apple's forum

Just curious... why did you respond to this?Apple's forum?Which one?Are you going to suggest buying a pc next?This isn't about whether pcs are better than Apple despite any attempts to guide the conversation there.It's about ArenaNet choosing not to support a platform going forward period.

It's not ArenaNet that chooses not to support a platform going forward, but about a platform that chooses not to support Arenanet anymore.

[Randulf.7614]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@BnooMaGoo.5690 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@BnooMaGoo.5690 said:I've been playing for almost 6 years.I can continue possibly if I go through Nvidia meaning I can play one hour a day for free or I can pay another amount to buy a membership.Not sure what I will be doing.You can blame Apple & there might me some truth to it but that's between the businesses.Where does it leave the player?

Koda the judge & kodan the jury.Yes I could use Bluestacks or some other windows emulator.But that seems counter-productive.It's like how bad do you want to play, customer?Not my idea of customer service/player support but I have a few decades of life before the internet & video games.Thanks for the tips.

Just curious... have you made a similar complaint/thread on apple's forum

Just curious... why did you respond to this?Apple's forum?Which one?Are you going to suggest buying a pc next?This isn't about whether pcs are better than Apple despite any attempts to guide the conversation there.It's about ArenaNet choosing not to support a platform going forward period.

It's not ArenaNet that chooses not to support a platform going forward, but about a platform that chooses not to support Arenanet anymore.

Beat me to it

[Pandora X.2063]

Going by their track-record, Apple will continue to support the last Intel Macs for the next five years at least. And that includes the Open GL they need to do stuff.

That's hardly 'dropping support'.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Arenanet has not said anyone on Mac OS cannot play the game. They stated they will not

support

any users with issues and it's no surprise given the complaint thread this past month by someone getting support information that was incorrect or outdated.

They explicitly said they're sunsetting the game client:

Starting February 18 , we will be discontinuing support for the Mac OS version of Guild Wars 2. This means the Mac client will no longer work after this date.

You can still find workarounds for running GW2 but it's not as simple as "we give up on support tickets," they're literally turning off users' current client at a specified date.They are not "turning it off". They will

stop updating it

. Unfortunately, client needs to be updated every patch, to be inline with the rest of the game, so it will become obsolete at that date, as it will be a patch day.

TL/DR: you will still have a working client, not a "disabled" one. Unfortunately, this client will be obsolete and no longer compatible with the game.... This still mean the client is technically, factually and intentionally disabled by Anet. To put in an even easier perspective, if you download the small client loader after the 18th, it's useless because it no longer work. Not a game that they "stopped updating". It's a disabled client.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@NotTooFoolish.7412 said:The decision of Anet is understandable no one is blaming them for not investing more resources to fit Apple's vision of an OS.

This has proven demonstrably false by some of the posts in this or other threads on the topic.People have and will continue to do so.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@"NotTooFoolish.7412" said:Soon enough Gw2 will have more toxic community than League of Legends...

That's hardly going to happen just because some of the Mac users leave this game (cause lets be honest, a plurality of the ones that care still care about GW2 will find a work around) and frankly I have no reason to believe that the GW2 player base is going to become exceptionally "Toxic" anytime soon.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I admit, sometimes I don't understand Apple's business practises.

I mean, I have a bias for Vulkan because I game on Linux as well but here's the thing: A good number of developers have been using Vulkan on Windows, Nintendo uses it on their Switch console, and its adoption is rising. Not only that, but it's the successor to OpenGL and a natural way to evolve from anything that uses OpenGL.

If Apple had decided to support Vulkan instead? You'd have a better Wine experience. However, shifting from OpenGL to Metal at the same time as switching from x64 architecture to ARM was... foolish. ArenaNet isn't the only developer who simply just does not have the resources to make these changes. You have to understand that it would require a substantial recreation of much of the code running within their currently used engine to work moving forward.

On top of that—ArenaNet would be forced to choose between supporting x64 (Intel) architecture or ARM architecture. So they'd likely have to abandon one of these anyway due to their limited resources, which would still make some fans happy. Let me try to put this in perspective a little bit, if I may? Asking for an Apple Silicon port of Guild Wars 2 is like asking for a Raspberry Pi port of Guild Wars 2.

Now, Linux users don't have a native port—they use Wine. As I understand, a lot of progress has been made with the performance of both Wine64 and DXVK on x64 Macs. So do what Linux people have had to do since day one and use Wine64. If you don't want to compile it, you can probably find precompiled binaries out there for your platform, I imagine. The same would probably be true for DXVK.

Just use a guide for setting up a Wine64 environment and use that to run the 64-bit Windows client for Guild Wars 2. This is your best option moving forward. If you have chosen to use Silicon? Well... The capacity seems to be there to run Guild Wars 2 in perhaps not the most performant way but it is there. The Catalina version of the client runs under Rosetta. I wouldn't mind betting, if I'm honest, that performance might actually be better under Wine64 than it is with the native Catalina client.

At the end of the day though, the ball rests in Apple's court and it's entirely unfair to blame anyone else. The problem is is that ArenaNet is owned by a publically traded corp who's always going to fixate on their bottom-line for their shareholders. If it's hugely unprofitable to sink money into developing Metal-based (which is a dead-end API, of that there can be no doubt), then ArenaNet has to make the call to abandon Mac. Otherwise they might make their company look undesirable to NCSoft.

This is a point I bring up a lot.

An investor corp recently bought a dominating share in Intel and now they're making demands that Intel stop making their own chips. This is what you have to deal with as a publically traded company—you're beholden to your shareholders. And the kind of leaders that shareholders want are often the cut-throat types who'll maximise profits above all else. Forward-thinking isn't exactly their forte.

So whilst it might be possible that Mac would lead to more profitability in the future—maybe even the distant future, if Guild Wars 2 lives that long—it would take a big hit to profitability in the immediate future. This is something that would be untenable to their shareholders. I know, I hate capitalism too.

This puts a very small company like ArenaNet in a difficult spot. They have to upset their Mac fans, they don't really have any choice. Their hands are tied. The only choices they have available to them are a.) Abandon Mac because ARM and Metal are simply too expensive to develop for, or b.) Sink their own ship trying. In all honesty, I'd like to think no one's greed is great enough that they'd want to see so many people lose their jobs, especially when they're happy working there. I'm not saying this as a manipulation, but simply as a matter of fact. ArenaNet is one of the good developers, and you can see this in how happy those working there are. The current leadership seems to be doing well, by both NCSoft and their employees.

Please understand that Apple did something that's actively hostile to game developers of their own volition. Instead of adopting industry standards, they took the hipster, status-symbol path of adopting fancy new technologies before they were even nearly ready. Both Silicon and Metal are half-baked and I doubt they'll last. It isn't because I don't think that chips like ARM are the future—to the contrary, I could easily see that being the case—but rather that now wasn't the time to adopt them. Compounding the adoption of ARM with a graphical API that only a niche Apple audience would patronise? That's a bad decision.

What I'm getting at is that only the big names with big money are going to be able to bankroll the development of anything for ARM and Metal. See, this isn't like making a Linux port because both Linux and Windows have OpenGL and Vulkan available to them, just as Linux and Windows use x64 chips. The only difference between the two is the operating system: Windows or Linux. What Apple has done is made it far more viable to develop for Linux instead.

Now, when Mac was running on x64 and had access to OpenGL, it had these portability paths. Does that make sense? OpenGL is on other platforms, it's well known and easy to use. The biggest pool of gamers is on x64 architecture. It made porting to Mac a small expenditure compared to what it would be now.

The way ArenaNet looks at it is that it's better to cut off Mac fans now rather than deal with demands for Silicon, it's better to deal with this now rather than later because of the expense. ArenaNet is looking at a shrinking market of users on Intel architecture chips, a vanishing market, and NCSoft will be paying close attention to that too. Why continue to spend money on a tiny market that's shrinking by the day?

Apple has made it so that it's no longer viable for small companies to even support x64 Macs as they're now a dead platform. It's like continuing to support the XBox One X after the release of the XBox Series X.

None of this is the fault of ArenaNet—they have to keep NCSoft happy.

The thing is—and I'm sorry to say this—is that for a long time Apple users will be heading back into the dark ages of the Apple computer. That isn't the fault of anyone but Apple for rushing to adopt half-baked technologies that simply aren't ready. This is something that Apple does. I mean, sure, it's nice to feel like you're some kind of fancy elite, but you're a fancy elite that doesn't play PC video games—you're a fancy elite that plays mobile games in desktop environments.

These feel like some sick burns but it isn't intentional, it's just reality. I've tried to explain this to friends before but many don't seem to understand what it's like to be a company that's owned by a publically-traded corporation. So please try to understand.

Moving forward, you'll see an initial burst of interest from the biggest names. This will probably have something to do with Apple quietly handing them big bags of money in the background. That won't last. The market share is big enough to develop for an environment where only the operating system is different, but it isn't big enough to be worth the cost of developing for both a new chip architecture and a new API.

You're going to see indies and smaller devs drop off first as they can't just cross-compile. It won't be a simple matter of porting anymore as the portability paths won't be there. There's no valid path for going from x64 and DirectX/Vulkan/OpenGL to ARM and Metal. It's too big of a risk. Before, it was a throwaway effort and now it isn't. How do I explain this? I know people like car analogies so let's try that. Let's say that there's a company that creates car interiors to a Universal standard that's been adopted by numerous car manufacturers. Suddenly, they switch to something else that only they're using, the layout is different, the size and shape of the seats, none of it fits the existing standards being used by car manufacturers.

Now, since this maker of interiors is desirable, one or two big car manufacturers might start a production line of cars designed for these new interiors but most won't. In the long run though it might not be profitable for even them to do it so even some of the biggest might decide to pull out early due to the costs of building all those extra production lines.

That's effectively what Apple has done. There are existing Universal standards which everyone uses that they've chosen to shirk.

I don't know if anyone is going to bother to read this but being angry at ArenaNet is pointless. You could be angry at NCSoft's shareholders, I suppose, but they're doing what shareholders will always do—protecting their bottom-line. Money is dopamine. That's not going to change. You can't be angry at ArenaNet because they have to do whatever makes NCSoft happy, that's just the way of it. The only ones to be angry at are Apple for, once again, adopting half-baked technologies—of both hardware and software—that absolutely no one beyond hobbyists is using.

Guild Wars 2 is just going to be the first game gone. This is the beginning of a long, long drought of games, a dry period where almost no desktop games will be released for Mac platforms and the only options will be mobile games.

If you want desktop games, you have to adhere to the standards—they eixst for a reason. Like it or not, this is a capitalist world so you want the most customers. That isn't going to be people using Apple devices running on ARM and using the Metal API moving forward. In fact, Apple's desktop market is likely to shrink as it did in their silly PowerPC drought. This is just the PowerPC days all over again and... It's Apple being Apple. They do this. If you buy an Apple device, this is what you're buying into.

It's going to lead to a lot of Apple users—because of the coming drought of desktop games—switching to PCs with x64 architecture again. This is Apple's choice. They had to know this would happen. It's all about being a status symbol and making their home machines an elite club again. It really is Apple being Apple.

You can't blame anyone but Apple for Apple being Apple. Ask older Apple users what the PowerPC days were like, and consider jumping ship.

You deserve more helpfuls and thumbs up. Seriously. This is the best explanation of what is happening right now and every Mac user should read this first before commenting on how Anet is to blame.

This reminds me of the Microsoft's Universal Windows Platform thing a while ago, except, Apple being Apple went full exclusive "you're not invited" club and not only changed the software side of things like UWP did but the hardware as well. And now where is UWP? No one wanted to develop for that and that worked on x86/64. Apple is banking on its name that developers will follow but the simple truth is, with this - Apple is doubling everyone's job for basically no gain whatsoever and it's no wonder no one wants to develop for that. Maybe in the future they will, but i don't see that really, any game developed for any x86/64 architecture would need to be re-programmed basically from scratch to work on the new Apple architecture. That's not something everyone can do.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Pandora X.2063" said:Going by their track-record, Apple will continue to support the last Intel Macs for the next five years at least. And that includes the Open GL they need to do stuff.

That's hardly 'dropping support'.

They ended suppoort 2 years ago.

"In 2018, Apple ended support for the OpenGL graphics technology that Guild Wars 2 uses on the Mac. While games and other software that rely on OpenGL still work for now, Apple has made it clear that this will not always be the case in new OS versions. They have also stopped actively fixing problems on Mac OS related to OpenGL, including graphics hardware driver issues. "

[NotTooFoolish.7412]

Re-post: Because the comment I quoted was removed :)

Well, people complain about shrinking community of GW2. Having the Mac users lost as well does not particularly help anyone.

The decision of Anet is understandable no one is blaming them for not investing more resources to fit Apple's vision of an OS. I thought this thread was to share information on how to play the game on Mac machines after the support ends. Of course, the easy way out is buying PC, it's not an appealing solution for people who 1. don't need an additional computer, 2. don't play much outside of GW2.

There are many criteria considered when one buys a computer, it may have been just a better choice for someone else.

Soon enough Gw2 will have more toxic community than League of Legends...

EDIT to comment on the above:

@Sigmoid.7082Many will blame Anet for what happened, but it is a reasonable decision. Why cater to every Apple's wish? Fortnite was removed from the store because they couldn't adhere to the Apple's policies. Was it ok? Not exactly, because they wanted to treat their players equally by offering everyone a discount. It was the breach of contract though.Anet had a choice at the beginning to skip iOS completely, they decided not to and they did great. MTG Arena forces users to reboot after 4-5 matches regardless of the OS. I've never experienced that with GW2. I will probably return to the game with some workaround, less frequently but still, what good does it do everyone to be mad.

@The Greyhawk.9107The toxicity I'm referring to is not related to the Mac users leaving but the people staying and using the opportunity to offend those who will be cut off from the game in Feb (not really cut off, but asked to jump through some hoops). It's really sad that given the current state of the world all we do is flame each other in forums. Not everyone is that kind of the player but as a frequent raider I can say that there are plenty running around in GW2.

The game is great for non-subscription based MMORPG, but the community nowadays... ugh :'(

[Sobx.1758]

@NotTooFoolish.7412 said:@The Greyhawk.9107The toxicity I'm referring to is not related to the Mac users leaving but the people staying and using the opportunity to offend those who will be cut off from the game in Feb (not really cut off, but asked to jump through some hoops). It's really sad that given the current state of the world all we do is flame each other in forums. Not everyone is that kind of the player but as a frequent raider I can say that there are plenty running around in GW2.

The game is great for non-subscription based MMORPG, but the community nowadays... ugh :'(

A lot of the people just point out that it's not anet's fault, but something that apple did. You wrote it yourself. I think that's pretty far from somehow using the situation to offend mac users and subsequentially claiming that community is becoming more toxic.

[lare.5129]

yes, it smell fail how I see .. for anet. very sad. will see many de-motivators pictures soon

[lare.5129]

@Nephalem.8921 said:The first part is true though. I get if you dont like windows but you could still game on linux with some workarounds.only on old macs linux is currenly possible

Getting high end hardware in a mac is just incredible expensive.that is not high end. This is common in first world.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Donutdude.9582 said:Such a shame. Typical Apple. It is why I despise them so.

Dito. M$ is already bad enough with their monopolization of the market, but Apple is worse with their policies. Don't know why most designers believe they need to work on Apple computers - most of the software runs fine on other platforms.

[Maikimaik.1974]

@Sol.6340 said:Or do I buy a current generation PC to game on, spend thousands of dollars on a computer

Almost every single mid tier PC that is able to run GW2 just fine is going to be several times cheaper while simultaneously several times more powerful (in terms of gaming) than any Mac out there.

[lare.5129]

@"Sobx.1758"A lot of the people just point out that it's not anet's faultit not fault, if you not support technological leader this is called "fail"I am also in future have plan buy new pro mac, and if they not support I will think - stay old pc or find new mmoI am no only one I am sure who have plan buy new mac

[lare.5129]

@anduriell.6280 said:Well I don’t think the game would run in a macbook air with integrated graphics anyway...in nearest 2 year all product line will be updated to M1 and others common cpu. Started from ligher version, but it only start.Someone start, someone end ? but not be so sad

[Sobx.1758]

@lare.5129 said:

@"Sobx.1758"A lot of the people just point out that it's not anet's faultit not fault, if you not support technological leader this is called "fail"I am also in future have plan buy new pro mac, and if they not support I will think - stay old pc or find new mmoI am no only one I am sure who have plan buy new mac

Apple drops support for something you've used for 8 years and you still want to use on your computer... and in response you're buying new mac instead of investing into something that doesn't cut itself off from devs. You make your own decisions here, just make sure you understand them instead of misplacing your blame.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@NotTooFoolish.7412 said:Re-post: Because the comment I quoted was removed :)@"The Greyhawk.9107"The toxicity I'm referring to is not related to the Mac users leaving but the people staying and using the opportunity to offend those who will be cut off from the game in Feb (not really cut off, but asked to jump through some hoops). It's really sad that given the current state of the world all we do is flame each other in forums. Not everyone is that kind of the player but as a frequent raider I can say that there are plenty running around in GW2.

The game is great for non-subscription based MMORPG, but the community nowadays... ugh :'(

Most of us have been trying to help you and others have are losing the Mac client, yes some haven't been very diplomatic about it but this is the internet, and frankly the response return from a lot of Mac users has been just as "toxic". There seems to be a sizeable degree of entitlement among a plurality of Mac users that seems to prevent them from understanding that what has happened here isn't the fault of the small and allegedly struggling gaming company called Anet but that of the Tech Giant that seems to obsessively need to control everything from the hardware and software they use to the user experience. Apple's been notorious for this behavior for years , even if the Mac you use is a necessity for work, and I do know that it can be for some jobs, its still something that you have to take into account when purchasing one of their products.

As for any alleged increase in "toxicity" in the playerbase, keep in mind you said you're a raider , that kinda behavior tends to come with that form of gameplay, its not something the rest of us experience a lot of in most other areas of GW2....well, at least in PvE.

[lare.5129]

@Sobx.1758 said:Apple drops support for something you've used for 8 years and still want to use on your computer... and in response you're buying new mac instead of investing into something that doesn't cut itself off from devs.in this allegory you suggest play another mmo game and forget old?

[Sobx.1758]

@lare.5129 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Apple drops support for something you've used for 8 years and still want to use on your computer... and in response you're buying new mac instead of investing into something that doesn't cut itself off from devs.in this allegory you suggest play another mmo game and forget old?

What allegory? I literally didn't use any.And no, I'm not suggesting anything. As I said: you make your own choices, but try understanding those choices and stop misplacing the blame.