Will we ever get respect from Anet? Or Thief just doesnt deserve it?

[Yasai.3549]

@"Cynz.9437" said:

As thief you would have even less success probably tbh. But it think the main point of this thread is not 1v1 but while community hates us a lot they also don't want to have us on their team because we provide little to the group. Given nature of MMORPG and what kind of end game content exists in gw2 it kind of does mean that thief players are excluded from the game to extend.

When a Profession such as Thief plays by different rules which govern the rest of the Professions (Ini system vs weapon cooldowns), people tend to take performance differences much more serious.

Revenant was and still is the subject of ire from mains of every other Profession because of their spammable utility, and now they are only resting on a fence because they have received really drastic and debilitating nerfs over the course of their lifespan since their introduction.

Thief is not gonna stop being the subject of hate until they have been "nerfed into a controlled state" like how Rev was.

Notice how Rev and Thief balance approaches are mainly the same?Reduce Burst on individual skills, increase costs on mobility skills.

Yea, it's not gonna stop until Thief is either crippled or they rework ini system for healthier gameplay.Because to be fair, Ini system and their 0 cooldowns is what makes Thief so busted when played by skill players.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Cynz.9437" said:

As thief you would have even less success probably tbh. But it think the main point of this thread is not 1v1 but while community hates us a lot they also don't want to have us on their team because we provide little to the group. Given nature of MMORPG and what kind of end game content exists in gw2 it kind of does mean that thief players are excluded from the game to extend.

When a Profession such as Thief plays by different rules which govern the rest of the Professions (Ini system vs weapon cooldowns), people tend to take performance differences much more serious.

Revenant was and still is the subject of ire from mains of every other Profession because of their spammable utility, and now they are only resting on a fence because they have received really drastic and debilitating nerfs over the course of their lifespan since their introduction.

Thief is not gonna stop being the subject of hate until they have been "nerfed into a controlled state" like how Rev was.

Notice how Rev and Thief balance approaches are mainly the same?Reduce Burst on individual skills, increase costs on mobility skills.

Yea, it's not gonna stop until Thief is either crippled or they rework ini system for healthier gameplay.Because to be fair, Ini system and their 0 cooldowns is what makes Thief so busted when played by skill players.

Implying rev has been significantly nerfed, but thief hasn't, lmao. Try reading patch notes for more than one class.

[Yasai.3549]

@Sobx.1758 said:Implying rev has been significantly nerfed, but thief hasn't, lmao. Try reading patch notes for more than one class.

Thief has, but obviously not enough :^)Rev also needs more nerfs, especially Mallyx and TN Demon.

Let's be real, people won't stop wanting Thief nerfed until Black Powder > Heartseeker Stealth Combo is neutered.Even if we manage to convince Anet to give every single Profession a Reveal, people just won't stop till that one combo is removed or made inefficient to perform.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Implying rev has been significantly nerfed, but thief hasn't, lmao. Try reading patch notes for more than one class.

Thief has, but obviously not enough :^)Rev also needs more nerfs, especially Mallyx and TN Demon.

Oh see, now you're saying something different than before ("Thief is not gonna stop being the subject of hate until they have been "nerfed into a controlled state" like how Rev was.") ;)

Let's be real, people won't stop wanting Thief nerfed until Black Powder > Heartseeker Stealth Combo is neutered.Even if we manage to convince Anet to give every single Profession a Reveal, people just won't stop till that one combo is removed or made inefficient to perform.

Nah, neutering that combo wouldn't stop much. People will always complain about something and try to nerf what they don't touch -thief or not.

[Yasai.3549]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nah, neutering that combo wouldn't stop much. People will always complain about something and try to nerf what they don't touch -thief or not.

Neutering the combo will get people off Thief for a while, and they attack the next "unfair" thing. (Probably gonna be stuff like Rune of the Trapper in WvW or something)I personally think adding more reveals would be nice though.

[Sobx.1758]

Oops, someone dodged half of the post again :D

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nah, neutering that combo wouldn't stop much. People will always complain about something and try to nerf what they don't touch -thief or not.

Neutering the combo will get people off Thief for a while, and they attack the next "unfair" thing. (Probably gonna be stuff like Rune of the Trapper in WvW or something)

So it will do what any other significant nerf would do. Mostly nerf players that use the class until they find a way to play around/despite the nerf at which point someone somewhere will still complain about whatever they want. Which in the end comes down to what I said: it won't stop complaining because there's always some bandwagon complaining about something -rightfully or not- in any given class there is in the game. Pretending that "hey, just nerf THIS and people will stop complaining!" is just false.And people already complain about rune of the trapper in wvw :d

I personally think adding more reveals would be nice though.

I personally think balancing stealth around itself would be better than "you either build specifically for this and your opponent is kittened or you don't and probably you are". Even moreso when your ""solution"" is to just -probably mostly randomly- tack an "anti-effect" on more skills, lmao.

[Cynz.9437]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Implying rev has been significantly nerfed, but thief hasn't, lmao. Try reading patch notes for more than one class.

Thief has, but obviously not enough :^)Rev also needs more nerfs, especially Mallyx and TN Demon.

Let's be real, people won't stop wanting Thief nerfed until Black Powder > Heartseeker Stealth Combo is neutered.

Even if we manage to convince Anet to give every single Profession a Reveal, people just won't stop till that one combo is removed or made inefficient to perform.

Wrong. BP -> HS has been neutered in the past when s/d, condi d/d even staff DD was meta. Guess what? People still cried bloody murder until those builds got nerfed to the ground. Truth is, thief has mostly active defenses built around avoiding damage, not mitigating it. This leads to possibly frustrating experience because that target dummy you spend your spells on actually dares to avoid some of those spells. Meanwhile a scourge or guard just sits there and soaks up all damage and barely anyone has issues with it even though those 2 probably live much longer than thief could ever do hence why 2v2 and 3v3 are filled exactly with those classes and not thieves. Thieves (or similar classes in other games) are usually very squishy, it paints HUGE target on their head and it makes enemies mad they can't kill something that is actually so close to dying. Sometimes i wish thieves were like rogues in wow (stun to death with high damage), maybe then people would understand how weak thieves are in comparison.

I was never fan of reveal the way it was implemented - it just disables class specific mechanic usually with just 1 button on short CD. I am still the opinion reveal should just make enemy targetable but not remove stealth. And, if current reveal is ok, then thief steal should disable class specific mechanics for other classes then, e.g. disable shatters, disable shades etc. Sounds broken? That is how broken reveal is for thief, imo.

I will just repeat myself: give thief support spec so they can play something else and be more group friendly so maybe, just maybe community will also start to like us and be thankful to have us on team.

[Carnifex.3275]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Implying rev has been significantly nerfed, but thief hasn't, lmao. Try reading patch notes for more than one class.

Thief has, but obviously not enough :^)Rev also needs more nerfs, especially Mallyx and TN Demon.

Let's be real, people won't stop wanting Thief nerfed until Black Powder > Heartseeker Stealth Combo is neutered.

Even if we manage to convince Anet to give every single Profession a Reveal, people just won't stop till that one combo is removed or made inefficient to perform.

Wrong. BP -> HS has been neutered in the past when s/d, condi d/d even staff DD was meta. Guess what? People still cried bloody murder until those builds got nerfed to the ground. Truth is, thief has mostly active defenses built around avoiding damage, not mitigating it. This leads to possibly frustrating experience because that target dummy you spend your spells on actually dares to avoid some of those spells. Meanwhile a scourge or guard just sits there and soaks up all damage and barely anyone has issues with it even though those 2 probably live much longer than thief could ever do hence why 2v2 and 3v3 are filled exactly with those classes and not thieves. Thieves (or similar classes in other games) are usually very squishy, it paints HUGE target on their head and it makes enemies mad they can't kill something that is actually so close to dying. Sometimes i wish thieves were like rogues in wow (stun to death with high damage), maybe then people would understand how weak thieves are in comparison.

I was never fan of reveal the way it was implemented - it just disables class specific mechanic usually with just 1 button on short CD. I am still the opinion reveal should just make enemy targetable but not remove stealth. And, if current reveal is ok, then thief steal should disable class specific mechanics for other classes then, e.g. disable shatters, disable shades etc. Sounds broken? That is how broken reveal is for thief, imo.

I will just repeat myself: give thief support spec so they can play something else and be more group friendly so maybe, just maybe community will also start to like us and be thankful to have us on team.

Preach ! Very good analogy of reveal. Nailed it. It's thieves specific class mechanics. So then.. let's disable guardians f1f2f3, lets disable shades or life force, lets disable shatters or clones, lets disable the whole legend swap for revenant etcetc. And yet.. people still cry thief is OP and deserves further nerfs / increased initiative costs / less stealth uptime...

And yea.. give us a support spec. So we can be useful atlast. Or buff us up and let us be the true rogue-type killers like we're supposed to be. And most importantly.... get off of our backs and mind your own business. Thief basically feels like a bullied kid in this game.

[Yasai.3549]

@Cynz.9437 said:

I was never fan of reveal the way it was implemented - it just disables class specific mechanic usually with just 1 button on short CD. I am still the opinion reveal should just make enemy targetable but not remove stealth. And, if current reveal is ok, then thief steal should disable class specific mechanics for other classes then, e.g. disable shatters, disable shades etc. Sounds broken? That is how broken reveal is for thief, imo.

But Ranger, Mesmer and Engi also has Stealth, so yu can't really argue it is a Thief specific mechanic.Ranger and Engi also has Smoke Field and Leaps, but they can't abuse it as much as Thief can.

Stealth being Thief specific mechanic is just wrong, but the Ini system allowing them to abuse the combo is their true Profession mechanic.Thief being able to access Stealth so easily with a weapon combo is a byproduct of the Ini system, not because Thief was designed to be able to Stealth easily with Dagger/Pistol.

Thief DOES have plenty of access to Stealth as well without using weapons too, in the form of Traits from SA as well as Utility skills like Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge.

Also what's this 1 button short CD thing.Shortest cooldown skill is probably Dragonhunter's Spear which is 20s cooldown, and applies 6s of Revealed, which definitely has more limitation than being able to Stealth every 3s.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Yasai.3549

Thief DOES have plenty of access to Stealth as well without using weapons too, in the form of Traits from SA as well as Utility skills like Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge.

To be fair, compare Blinding Powder to, say, necromancer's Spectral Ring. Or Roll for Initiative to Lightning Reflexes. A lot of the thief utilities seem / are powerful when combined with something else, but as standalones they're weaker than a lot of the other classes' utilities. A few exceptions stand out, 'course; i.e. Smoke Screen.

This is another example of Anet's philosophy in regards to balancing out the initiative system, and why every nerf to the initiative costs is actually stacked.

[Yasai.3549]

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

To be fair, compare Blinding Powder to, say, necromancer's Spectral Ring. Or Roll for Initiative to Lightning Reflexes. A lot of the thief utilities seem / are powerful when combined with something else, but as standalones they're weaker than a lot of the other classes' utilities. A few exceptions stand out, 'course; i.e. Smoke Screen.

Eh, I'm just mentioning utilities that give Stealth here for my point, not really comparing skill strength.And besides, isn't Lightning Reflexes like..... kinda bad? 30s CD, Evade stunbreak which removes immobI'll say Riposting Shadows is way more overloaded, but it costs 40 Energy :p

This is another example of Anet's philosophy in regards to balancing out the initiative system, and why every nerf to the initiative costs is actually stacked.And the effects are felt, at least with SB5.

I'm suggesting, in regards to the topic at hand, that people probably won't stop asking for nerfs to Thief until they are more or less "brought down to earth" from what their Ini system grants them.

All in all, it can be seen as people just not feeling "it's fair" that Thief plays by different rules and will call for nerfs/reworks in order to "normalize" them.The vocal forum community has seen to that with Revenant, so following that trend, Thief is undergoing that same thing.

[kash.9213]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

To be fair, compare Blinding Powder to, say, necromancer's Spectral Ring. Or Roll for Initiative to Lightning Reflexes. A lot of the thief utilities seem / are powerful when combined with something else, but as standalones they're weaker than a lot of the other classes' utilities. A few exceptions stand out, 'course; i.e. Smoke Screen.

Eh, I'm just mentioning utilities that give Stealth here for my point, not really comparing skill strength.And besides, isn't Lightning Reflexes like..... kinda bad? 30s CD, Evade stunbreak which removes immobI'll say Riposting Shadows is way more overloaded, but it costs 40 Energy :p

This is another example of Anet's philosophy in regards to balancing out the initiative system, and why every nerf to the initiative costs is actually stacked.And the effects are felt, at least with SB5.

I'm suggesting, in regards to the topic at hand, that people probably won't stop asking for nerfs to Thief until they are more or less "brought down to earth" from what their Ini system grants them.

All in all, it can be seen as people just not feeling "it's fair" that Thief plays by different rules and will call for nerfs/reworks in order to "normalize" them.The vocal forum community has seen to that with Revenant, so following that trend, Thief is undergoing that same thing.

You keep talking about thief Initiative in terms of being abused or exploited and needing to be "brought down to earth" for "healthy gameplay". Why are you against thief Initiative? You take every opportunity to insinuate that the mechanic is unfair somehow. Do you think Initiative is unfair? We've seen the devs hit our Initiative use hard and none of the problems people have with thief were solved for them but you think the mechanic itself just needs to be replaced if it can't be nerfed any further. You mask your actual opinion by giving warnings of how other players perceive thief skills and mobility, but it's a guise for you to attack Initiative again. Why do you hate Initiative so much. Why do you hate signature thief mechanics so much?

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

I was never fan of reveal the way it was implemented - it just disables class specific mechanic usually with just 1 button on short CD. I am still the opinion reveal should just make enemy targetable but not remove stealth. And, if current reveal is ok, then thief steal should disable class specific mechanics for other classes then, e.g. disable shatters, disable shades etc. Sounds broken? That is how broken reveal is for thief, imo.

But Ranger, Mesmer and Engi also has Stealth, so yu can't really argue it is a Thief specific mechanic.Ranger and Engi also has Smoke Field and Leaps, but they can't abuse it as much as Thief can.

Stealth being Thief specific mechanic is just wrong, but the Ini system allowing them to abuse the combo is their true Profession mechanic.Thief being able to access Stealth so easily with a weapon combo is a byproduct of the Ini system, not because Thief was designed to be able to Stealth easily with Dagger/Pistol.

Thief DOES have plenty of access to Stealth as well without using weapons too, in the form of Traits from SA as well as Utility skills like Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge.

Also what's this 1 button short CD thing.Shortest cooldown skill is probably Dragonhunter's Spear which is 20s cooldown, and applies 6s of Revealed, which definitely has more limitation than being able to Stealth every 3s.

At this point you actually need to go back to basics and read what each of the profession mechanics are and then connect the dots between stealth and thief's actual class mechanic.

[Dadnir.5038]

@MisterDizzy.4713 said:I took my Thief into HOT and it was miserable. Such a glass cannon. If you get caught even a little in a stray aoe you're going to die. Every time you get randomly cc'd its basically instant death. The slight high single target damage is NOT worth the rest of the class being basically unplayable. Especially since regular pve rewards high AOE damage, which the thief doesn't even have.

Not everybody have the same experience with each profession. Personally, I've raised all professions (bared revenant) pre HoT, playing since then each of them in a steady rotation and doing new content for all profession. I usually break this rotation for new content and use thief to trailblaze through new map/mobs. From my point of view it's the safest and quickest character to do that.

Thief for open PvE content have quite a few advantage:

• mobility
• stealth
• blind

When you're used to take advantage of these 3 factors open PvE content is a breeze.

[lare.5129]

thief is skill depend class. Not use it. There is more proper way to find valid class.

[Yasai.3549]

@Sobx.1758 said:At this point you actually need to go back to basics and read what each of the profession mechanics are and then connect the dots between stealth and thief's actual class mechanic.

Isn't Thief's core mechanic Stealing for Bundles and Ini system?It doesn't have any Stealth baked into the core mechanic anywhere so..... I don't think it's right to say Stealth is considered a Class specific mechanic.

@"kash.9213" said:

You keep talking about thief Initiative in terms of being abused or exploited and needing to be "brought down to earth" for "healthy gameplay". Why are you against thief Initiative? You take every opportunity to insinuate that the mechanic is unfair somehow. Do you think Initiative is unfair? We've seen the devs hit our Initiative use hard and none of the problems people have with thief were solved for them but you think the mechanic itself just needs to be replaced if it can't be nerfed any further. You mask your actual opinion by giving warnings of how other players perceive thief skills and mobility, but it's a guise for you to attack Initiative again. Why do you hate Initiative so much. Why do you hate signature thief mechanics so much?

Because Dagger/Pistol is so easy to pick up and use without skill.Stealth spam promotes no counterplay because it removes the player from sight, and breaks targeting.Gw2 is not a true free action combat game : many skills require targeting to take effect.Being able to break targeting and remove themselves from sight is a very powerful and easily abusable mechanic.

Just like how people take issue with Rune of the Trapper on DHs and Rangers, giving them many instances of Stealth access and Superspeed, spammable Stealth is pretty much the same thing on an already mobile Profession like Thief.

I'm okay with Stealth tied to cooldowns, like Blinding Powder and Hide in Shadows, because those skills being cooldown gated are punishable if misused, just like other Professions, but I'm just not okay with easily accessible Stealth anytime anywhere which happens to only exist on 1 weapon set for Thief (Dagger/Pistol)

If constant Stealth access was truly designed for Thief, then we would see it appear on more weapon sets than just Dagger/Pistol. (and on Dagger 5, but it is more unreliable)As it is now, I can only see Stealth access from these sources as abusing the Ini system.

It's just my opinion though, and honestly no one has tried to convince me otherwise.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:At this point you actually need to go back to basics and read what each of the profession mechanics are and then connect the dots between stealth and thief's actual class mechanic.

Isn't Thief's core mechanic Stealing for Bundles and Ini system?It doesn't have any Stealth baked into the core mechanic anywhere so..... I don't think it's right to say Stealth is considered a Class specific mechanic.

Ok. How many classes have actual stealth attacks? Do you think stealth attacks are forgotten about while anet balances the class/es?

[Yasai.3549]

@Sobx.1758 said:Ok. How many classes have actual stealth attacks? Do you think stealth attacks are forgotten about while anet balances the class/es?

Good point, but they also have more utility skills than other Professions that can access Stealth, so by design, they do have the methods to access Stealth and pull off Stealth attacks, without using weapon skills.

But now that yu mention it, doesn't it feel that way for a good number of weapons?It does feel like Stealth attacks are mostly forgotten on all weapons except Dagger and Rifle, which heavily use Stealth.

[kash.9213]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:At this point you actually need to go back to basics and read what each of the profession mechanics are and then connect the dots between stealth and thief's actual class mechanic.

Isn't Thief's core mechanic Stealing for Bundles and Ini system?It doesn't have any Stealth baked into the core mechanic anywhere so..... I don't think it's right to say Stealth is considered a Class specific mechanic.

@"kash.9213" said:

You keep talking about thief Initiative in terms of being abused or exploited and needing to be "brought down to earth" for "healthy gameplay". Why are you against thief Initiative? You take every opportunity to insinuate that the mechanic is unfair somehow. Do you think Initiative is unfair? We've seen the devs hit our Initiative use hard and none of the problems people have with thief were solved for them but you think the mechanic itself just needs to be replaced if it can't be nerfed any further. You mask your actual opinion by giving warnings of how other players perceive thief skills and mobility, but it's a guise for you to attack Initiative again. Why do you hate Initiative so much. Why do you hate signature thief mechanics so much?

Because Dagger/Pistol is so easy to pick up and use without skill.Stealth spam promotes no counterplay because it removes the player from sight, and breaks targeting.Gw2 is not a true free action combat game : many skills require targeting to take effect.Being able to break targeting and remove themselves from sight is a very powerful and easily abusable mechanic.

Just like how people take issue with Rune of the Trapper on DHs and Rangers, giving them many instances of Stealth access and Superspeed, spammable Stealth is pretty much the same thing on an already mobile Profession like Thief.

I'm okay with Stealth tied to cooldowns, like Blinding Powder and Hide in Shadows, because those skills being cooldown gated are punishable if misused, just like other Professions, but I'm just not okay with easily accessible Stealth anytime anywhere which happens to only exist on 1 weapon set for Thief (Dagger/Pistol)

If constant Stealth access was truly designed for Thief, then we would see it appear on more weapon sets than just Dagger/Pistol. (and on Dagger 5, but it is more unreliable)As it is now, I can only see Stealth access from these sources as abusing the Ini system.

It's just my opinion though, and honestly no one has tried to convince me otherwise.

Okay. So, the next time you want to tackle the issues around stealth, deal with stealth and leave Initiative alone.

• "Dagger/Pistol is so easy to pick up and use without skill". It's easy once you learn it like everything else. Regardless, deal with that weapon kit and leave Initiative alone if there's no reason to mess with it.
• "Stealth spam promotes no counterplay because it removes the player from sight, and breaks targeting." Deal with those issues and leave Initiative alone.
• "Gw2 is not a true free action combat game : many skills require targeting to take effect." what does that have to do with Initiative?
• " Being able to break targeting and remove themselves from sight is a very powerful and easily abusable mechanic." It's annoying but not all that powerful. What does Initiative have to do with that?

You're trying to nerf everything except what you have issues with and trying to kill the signature thief mechanics that got people into the class to begin. I'd ask you to stop if I thought the devs cared about the thief forum.

[Yasai.3549]

Okay. So, the next time you want to tackle the issues around stealth, deal with stealth and leave Initiative alone.

• "Dagger/Pistol is so easy to pick up and use without skill". It's easy once you learn it like everything else. Regardless, deal with that weapon kit and leave Initiative alone if there's no reason to mess with it.
• "Stealth spam promotes no counterplay because it removes the player from sight, and breaks targeting." Deal with those issues and leave Initiative alone.
• "Gw2 is not a true free action combat game : many skills require targeting to take effect." what does that have to do with Initiative?
• " Being able to break targeting and remove themselves from sight is a very powerful and easily abusable mechanic." It's annoying but not all that powerful. What does Initiative have to do with that?

You're trying to nerf everything except what you have issues with and trying to kill the signature thief mechanics that got people into the class to begin. I'd ask you to stop if I thought the devs cared about the thief forum.

But the Stealth spam is a byproduct of the ini system tho :/And as a result of that Stealth spam, other problems arise.And Ini system was also part of the reason for SB5 nerfs.

I don't know if devs actually care bout the entire Forums that isn't PvP and WvW tho.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Ok. How many classes have actual stealth attacks? Do you think stealth attacks are forgotten about while anet balances the class/es?

Good point, but they also have more utility skills than other Professions that can access Stealth, so by design, they do have the methods to access Stealth and pull off Stealth attacks, without using weapon skills.

They do have access to stealth and they need it because of their profession mechanic. The point here is you're apparently trying to have a widespread source of shutting down the stealth and then pretend it's equally fair between the classes "because stealth isn't a unique profession mechanic". Stealth isn't class specific, but stealth as the only way to trigger class mechanic IS class specific. What here is hard to understand for you?

It does feel like Stealth attacks are mostly forgotten on all weapons except Dagger and Rifle, which heavily use Stealth.

No, it doesn't seem like it for the weapons/builds that are supposed to rely on it. And just look which weapon you're talking about while you talk about gutting stealth, hmm...

[kash.9213]

@"Yasai.3549" said:

Okay. So, the next time you want to tackle the issues around stealth, deal with stealth and leave Initiative alone.

• "Dagger/Pistol is so easy to pick up and use without skill". It's easy once you learn it like everything else. Regardless, deal with that weapon kit and leave Initiative alone if there's no reason to mess with it.
• "Stealth spam promotes no counterplay because it removes the player from sight, and breaks targeting." Deal with those issues and leave Initiative alone.
• "Gw2 is not a true free action combat game : many skills require targeting to take effect." what does that have to do with Initiative?
• " Being able to break targeting and remove themselves from sight is a very powerful and easily abusable mechanic." It's annoying but not all that powerful. What does Initiative have to do with that?

You're trying to nerf everything except what you have issues with and trying to kill the signature thief mechanics that got people into the class to begin. I'd ask you to stop if I thought the devs cared about the thief forum.

But the Stealth spam is a byproduct of the ini system tho :/And as a result of that Stealth spam, other problems arise.And Ini system was also part of the reason for SB5 nerfs.

I don't know if devs actually care bout the entire Forums that isn't PvP and WvW tho.

• Stealth spam is a byproduct of everything that gives stealth. It's also not a huge problem right now. We can deal with stealth duration and stealth attack windows instead of taking a lazy knee jerk reaction approach like you are doing and going for the signature thief mechanic because....it's what people see us doing so we should nerf it so they feel better? You're still not explaining yourself very well at all and haven't really answered.
• What problems are arising from stealth spam aside from WvW forum spam? I still hit people in stealth and they need to come out to do anything. That's their wasted resources.
• Ini was an easy target for the devs to nerf SB5 when there were better options, we discussed this in this forum, you should remember that for someone who claims to have the answers.

The little faces at the end of your sentences don't drive home your point and it doesn't make the person you're responding to look unreasonable like you're hoping. You need to either explain your reasoning for nerfing Initiative far better than you're doing or you need to ask yourself why you're still on about that.

[Skada.1362]

Shadow arts paired with d/p set is totally busted, everybody knows this. Don't matter if it's thief, daredevil or deadeye. It's absurdly OP and should not be a thing anymore. Imagine if shadow arts and the d/p set saw nerfs and thieves were forced to go back to deadly arts or even SD builds again, it would be so much more fun for everyone. One thing I rarely see people complain about which is surprising to me is Shadow Shot, it does too much for it's cost. "but but it already saw a nerf by increased initiative cost" dont care, it's still busted. It does great damage and its unblockable blind lasts way too long, reduce the blind duration to max 2 seconds and maybe shave some damage.As a thief main I never really had to suffer being bullied by shadow arts thieves that much since I am one myself, but latley when trying to get back into other classes it's really noticeable how cancer it is to fight something that can stealth as much as it wants and keep you perma blinded while bursting you down. You either can't target the thief, or if you can, you are now blinded and your counters will miss. ANET, get rid of this silly shit already, bring back SD meta.

edit: on topic - if anyone claims that thieves are being treated "unfairly" or that they are underpowered in any way, seriously l2p. Thief is totally, insanely, omega, ridonkelusly over powered in PVP/WVW.

[Axl.8924]

So i was watching a video now saw a guy doin open world with SB saw him doin lotsa dmg on daredevil, at least i think so since the guy had a staff.

Did SB get buffed recently? dmg looked really nice.

Nevermind its prob being inflated by others. There was a deadeye there too a engi and buncha other folks and prob not seeing real numbers on SB1

[Cynz.9437]

@Yasai.3549 thief has whole trainline dedicated to stealth. It also has stealth based attacks that other classes don't have. Yes, stealth is mostly thief mechanic. Frankly, i don't think other classes should even have access to it. Stealth is brain check mechanic. Many seem to not like to turn it on. Understandable. Should something be nerfed because people are lazy? Really? It has been done, look at pvp meta. Yeaaaahhhh. ZZzzzzzzZZZzzz.

All in all, judging by your posts across all forum sections what you actually ask already exists: it is called revenant.