If the commander can come back to life so should Trahearne and Vlast

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Touchme.1097 said:Are you in charge to dictate the rules of resurrection or am I missing something?

Obviously not, but resurrection has been in the lore for quite some time, and there are common threads seen.

The biggest one being: a body in good condition.

Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such.

@Touchme.1097 said:I am not talking about all the NPCs in the game, I am pointing my finger to the main NPCs who follow the commander in almost every story chapter, I have played all the available story PoF has to offer and I am currently playing LS2 and there are always Taimi, Caithe, Kasmeer, Marjory and Rox as female characters and Braham, Canach and Rytlock as male NPCs.

I don't think you can include Caithe, Kasmeer, and Marjory in that list, and exclude Logan and Gorrik. Logan and Gorrik has been more involved since Season 4 than those three were. And in IBS, as Weindrasi said, there's Efram who's been a persistent ally as well (and Smodur and Crecia, to be fair).

[Fenella.2634]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The biggest one being: a body in good condition.

Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such.The Commander and Aurene didn't, either. One was burnt, the other impaled.But we had very special circumstances that can't be easily done again, not by us and not by other characters.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

@Fipmip.7219 said:

I never thought of trahearne as stealing credit. If you think about the original story, he organizes the pact and cleanses orr. The commander is sent on missions by trahearne and is generally used as a beat stick to clear out key objectives and kill high ranking enemies. The backup, the means, the intel, is mostly provided by allies. You get to be the sword that kills the foe, but you were wielded by trahearne. I think perhaps people might have whined due to not getting enough recognition in the dialogue, perhaps being referred to as the dragon slayer might have helped. But I never truly understood it. In any case, I think giving full reigns to the commander wasn't really the right move. the commander at this stage feels more like a plot device than a character.

i agree with this, but this is probably not what people dislike him, its the way it is is portrayed, and the voice actor.

same with game of thrones's final season, i understand she had to go mad and arya had to ignore her list, but it was all portrayed so badly.

But i have a feeling thats very common these days, alot of great stories are ruined because things arent portrayed in a way that makes sence and blatand disregard for established lore

[Touchme.1097]

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

I never thought of trahearne as stealing credit. If you think about the original story, he organizes the pact and cleanses orr. The commander is sent on missions by trahearne and is generally used as a beat stick to clear out key objectives and kill high ranking enemies. The backup, the means, the intel, is mostly provided by allies. You get to be the sword that kills the foe, but you were wielded by trahearne. I think perhaps people might have whined due to not getting enough recognition in the dialogue, perhaps being referred to as the dragon slayer might have helped. But I never truly understood it. In any case, I think giving full reigns to the commander wasn't really the right move. the commander at this stage feels more like a plot device than a character.

i agree with this, but this is probably not what people dislike him, its the way it is is portrayed, and the voice actor.

same with game of thrones's final season, i understand she had to go mad and arya had to ignore her list, but it was all portrayed so badly.

But i have a feeling thats very common these days, alot of great stories are ruined because things arent portrayed in a way that makes sence and blatand disregard for established lore

I am totally fine with the voice of Matthew Brenher, his voice acting was decent. Anet should really stop to listen to those minorities who don't like characters based on gut feelings and start valuing the remaining characters more than they do. I would trade Braham for Trahearne anytime, I don't like that spoiled norn baby, I like male characters who have a good attitude to lead and have a strong personality and at the moment I can't see any of the male NPCs being up to these standards unless Anet chooses to fix masculinity in this game and make it more relevant.

[Fenella.2634]

@Touchme.1097 said:I am totally fine with the voice of Matthew Brenher, his voice acting was decent. Anet should really stop to listen to those minorities who don't like characters based on gut feelings and start valuing the remaining characters more than they do. I would trade Braham for Trahearne anytimeChange the audio to German, then. ^^ From LS4 forward the German VA of Trahearne took over Braham's role. It's hilarious. (But he's doing a pretty good job, all in all.)

[Randulf.7614]

People disliked Trahearne for the same nonsense reasons they want rid of Braham - because they are unable to comprehend differences and ongoing evolutions in character and thus end up parroting phrases like "stole our thunder" in Trahearnes case or "spoiled brat" in Brahams case - neither of which are correct, yet appear over and over and over again on the forums

Trahearne worked better in charge of the Pact than we ever could - a flawed academic whose initial lack of leadership were outweighed by his inoffensive style in uniting 3 bickering factions until he grew into the role. We are adventurers - heroes looking to establish our legacy or fight against tyranny and so forth. Our personalities are too varied to establish ourselves as the leader of the group and it's never really worked. Using our role to keep fragmenting guild members together didn't make for compelling heroic fantasy writing. His VA was stilted aboslutely, but that was likely intended with the overall style with all the Sylvari VA at the time.Trahearne's biggest issue was the inconsistency in how he was introduced. Sylvari got to know him, but otehr races had him thrust upon them. That isn't a fault of the character, just a fault of the writing.

As for Braham, he has never been spoiled. He is a young Norn who having struggled in the shadow of a legendary Mother who barely had much to do with him, reunited with her only to see her massacred in front of him. Him going off on one, lashing out at others and wanting to storm on Jormag was actually fairly on point and allowed them to explore his character a bit before allowing him to grow. Not many characters get that opportunity in the game. He was meant to be annoying to everyone around him and for players to dislike him to ensure that his eventual redemption had meaning. Given the direction of the story in LS3, he was probably a much better fit for Jormag's free will Champion than Ryland was, but apart from rushing the scenario of breaking the tooth (which I still find unforgivable), Braham has been handled rather well for what they intended for him.

As for "unless Anet chooses to fix masculinity in this game and make it more relevant", I'm not sure what that really means.

[EdwinLi.1284]

@"Randulf.7614" said:People disliked Trahearne for the same nonsense reasons they want rid of Braham - because they are unable to comprehend differences and ongoing evolutions in character and thus end up parroting phrases like "stole our thunder" in Trahearnes case or "spoiled brat" in Brahams case - neither of which are correct, yet appear over and over and over again on the forums

Trahearne worked better in charge of the Pact than we ever did - a flawed academic whose initial lack of leadership were outweighed by his inoffensive style in uniting 3 bickering factions until he grew into the role. We are adventurers - heroes looking to establish our legacy or fight against tyranny and so forth. Our personalities are too varied to establish ourselves as the leader of the group and it's never really worked. Using our role to keep fragmenting guild members together didn't make for compelling heroic fantasy writing. His VA was stilted aboslutely, but that was likely intended with the overall style with all the Sylvari VA at the time.Trahearne's biggest issue was the inconsistency in how he was introduced. Sylvari got to know him, but otehr races had him thrust upon them. That isn't a fault of the character, just a fault of the writing.

As for Braham, he has never been spoiled. He is a young Norn who having struggled in the shadow of a legendary Mother who barely had much to do with him, reunited with her only to see her massacred in front of him. Him going off on one, lashing out at others and wanting to storm on Jormag was actually fairly on point and allowed them to explore his character a bit before allowing him to grow. Not many characters get that opportunity in the game. He was meant to be annoying to everyone around him and for players to dislike him to ensure that his eventual redemption had meaning. Given the direction of the story in LS3, he was probably a much better fit for Jormag's free will Champion than Ryland was, but apart from rushing the scenario of breaking the tooth (which I still find unforgivable), Braham has been handled rather well for what they intended for him.

As for "Anet chooses to fix masculinity in this game and make it more relevant", I'm not sure what that really means.

I think a lot of people forget that Braham is literally a teenager dealing with a lot of things far out of most people's teenage years experience.

Braham is born on 1309 A.E, Heart of Thorns happened in 1328 A.E., and the year is now 1330 A.E..

He literally had to watch his mother die at the age of 17 years old after finally reconsolidated their family relationship after growing up without her most of his life. He also grew up in a era that is thrown into constant war because beings of great power called Elder Dragons constantly attacking his own home and murdering or corrupting his friends, family, and people he has known growing up.

We can't really put our own standards on Braham due to the type of world he lives in which is in constant war everywhere people go.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

'stealing the spotlight'"Oh my god, why am I just a side character?"

• Big T Leaf dies"OH MY GOD ANET, WHY AM I THE CHOSEN ONE, EVERY GAME DOES THIS!"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The biggest one being: a body in good condition.

Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such.The Commander and Aurene didn't, either. One was burnt, the other impaled.But we had very special circumstances that can't be easily done again, not by us and not by other characters.

The Commander's body was in one piece. There might have been burns, but burns can be healed. Exploding is a different matter. If you replay the instance, the Commander's body is in solid condition when resurrecting (from being a corpse on the ground to floating up). Any injuries would be healed.

If the Commander was a pile of ash as some people believe because of this misleading item, then the Commander wouldn't have been capable of resurrecting without a new body (like Shiro).

As for Aurene, technically she never died. Her heart was pierced and she couldn't heal herself with Kralk's brand still imbedded, so it seemed like death, but it was more of a comatose state.

And even then, Vlast's body had literally exploded into a few dozen pieces. Trahearne's body seems similar given the final cinematic in HoT. These are very different from being stabbed and burned a bit.

[Touchme.1097]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The biggest one being: a body in good condition.

Neither Vlast nor Trahearne have such.The Commander and Aurene didn't, either. One was burnt, the other impaled.But we had very special circumstances that can't be easily done again, not by us and not by other characters.

The Commander's body was in one piece. There might have been burns, but burns can be healed. Exploding is a different matter. If you replay the instance, the Commander's body is in solid condition when resurrecting (from being a corpse on the ground to floating up). Any injuries would be healed.

If the Commander was a pile of ash as some people believe

because of this misleading item

, then the Commander wouldn't have been capable of resurrecting without a new body (like Shiro).

As for Aurene, technically she never died. Her heart was pierced and she couldn't heal herself with Kralk's brand still imbedded, so it

seemed

like death, but it was more of a comatose state.

And even then, Vlast's body had literally exploded into a few dozen pieces. Trahearne's body seems similar given the final cinematic in HoT. These are very different from being stabbed and burned a bit.

I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references.The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body.Second point is you don't have the authority to claim which character is considered to be retired from the game, only ArenaNet has that authority and you should leave that kind of claim to them.Your assumption is not even a theory because you revolve your claims over one case of death experience in canon, the commander, and that is neither enough to expand the rule on everything else nor a factual theory you can generalize with.I believe death has a lot of voids to fill in this game's lore with a lot of questions that are still unanswered and the only authority to answer these questions about the afterlife falls again on those who write and approve the lore, not you.We know dragons feed on ley-line energies to grow bigger like Aurene and the other elder dragons did. We know ley-line energies can convert into matter so it's still valid to assume that a spirit can come back to life on its own physical body if there is enough energy available to be consumed in order to achieve this task, this doesn't contradict the way the commander came back to life if you have played the story and remember what you had to do to escape the domain of the lost.This also means that any NPC, good or bad, big or small, could come back to life if there is enough energy to be spent to perform the task, I would extend this concept to Gods as well because they are NPCs. This implies the consequences that a dead powerful being would come back to life weakened, especially if the energy of its original body has been consumed or absorbed by other NPCs.Nothing stays dead unless a gaming company chooses to retire an NPC permanently and even this doesn't automatically imply that it cannot be resurrected, it just means that the NPC has been retired from the game and it won't make a new appearance.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Gee, why bother having a Lore Sub-Forum at all then?

[anninke.7469]

@"Touchme.1097" said:I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references.The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body....As much as I like some of your points... Right back at you there. Do you have any relevant source of information about precise state of the commander's body to support your claims? After all, regardless of race the commander is quite a capable fighter and supposedly has a decent amout of magical support from their equipment, so the level of bodily damage is not as easy to guess as you seem to think.

Also, please don't do the "you don't have the authority" thing just because someone says what you don't like. Of course Anet has the final word over their game, but I hope they don't overuse it at the cost of lore consistency (too much).

And last but not least - please leave Trahearne alone, he's had his much-more-than-sufficient heap of kitten so the rest is well deserved.

[Touchme.1097]

@anninke.7469 said:

@Touchme.1097 said:

I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption

before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references.The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body....Do you have any relevant source of information about precise state of the commander's body to support your claims?

The answer to your question can be found watching the cinematic, I don't have to prove to you any more details as the cinematic speaks for itself.Of course you can't see all the gore and violence the commander suffers in the cinematic, it's a PEGI 12 game, I have explained my point about this and I have been very clear.@anninke.7469 said:Also, please don't do the "you don't have the authority" thing just because someone says what you don't like. Of course Anet has the final word over their game, but I hope they don't overuse it at the cost of lore consistency (too much).

You just contradicted yourself reinforcing my point by claiming Anet has the final word over their game, what makes your assumption a valid claim? You provided no evidence to support your assumption therefore it's not even a theory.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Touchme.1097 said:I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references.The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body.

Resurrection was a common magic in GW1, and usually those resurrected suffered from various wounds. So, since you seem to be insisting that "good condition" means no injuries at all, that very much isn't the case. The only solid evidence of why someone couldn't be resurrected in GW1 were three things:

1. Their soul was unavailable to be put in their body (e.g., Chosen killed atop of Bloodstones).
2. Too much time had passed (e.g., Rurik).
3. Their body is severely damaged beyond repair (e.g., Gadd, who died in an explosion).

Typical battle wounds wouldn't be apart of such. And as for the Commander - the only solidly canonical damage they took was a magic sword from the ground, and a fireball to the face. They were not skewed by Balthazar's sword in the cinematic (which is only "wide enough to split the body in two" for asura and thin sylvari, really). If you don't believe they they were hit with a fireball and not Balthazar's greatsword, I recommend you look up the cinematic on youtube. After chaining Aurene, Balthazar summons a fireball and hurls it at you.

Sufficient to kill, but not burn and certainly not cut in half.

@Touchme.1097 said:Second point is you don't have the authority to claim which character is considered to be retired from the game, only ArenaNet has that authority and you should leave that kind of claim to them.

I never said anything about being retired from the game. Souls are a thing, and we've seen ghosts return. Trahearne and Vlast can 100% return as souls. But their bodies are in no condition to be resurrected, nor do I think either (especially Vlast) would want to be resurrected.

Of course, this isn't to say there is absolutely no way in any shape or form for them to come back as living beings - Shiro Tagachi managed to create a new body through powerful and ancient rituals and curse breaking, so in theory anyone could. But the conditions needed for such are extensive and rather unique. Shiro had a fallen god of knowledge behind him, was an Envoy that commanded a legion of souls, was cursed by a magically powerful bloodline of Canthan emperors, and required said bloodline (among additional unknown things) to perform his own resurrection.

Your assumption is not even a theory because you revolve your claims over one case of death experience in canon, the commander, and that is neither enough to expand the rule on everything else nor a factual theory you can generalize with.

One? Let me site the number of deaths in canon where resurrection was readily available, but the figure was not resurrected:

• Mordakai - Abandoned body
• Prince Rurik - Abandoned body
• Saidra - Abandoned body
• Master Togo - used in ritual
• Ahtok - death by siege explosion
• Kehanni - used in ritual
• Gadd - explosion
• Several hundred soldiers, civilians, adventurers, and hundreds of Chosen in GW1 that aren't directly part of the main plot.

I am not pulling this out of my ass. I'm basing this off of the lore present when resurrection magic was a common enough thing in the world to actually be mentioned casually in a very much not-forth-wall-breaking moment.

Resurrection may be a lost magic in GW2's time, but it was pretty common place in GW1. And yet, despite this, there were notable deaths without resurrection. And in my list above, you can see some reoccurring themes.

And since you seem to have it stuck in your head, let me clarify: I am NOT proclaiming to determine the lore. No, I am merely reciting the established lore that was determined by the writers - not I.

We know dragons feed on ley-line energies to grow bigger like Aurene and the other elder dragons did. We know ley-line energies can convert into matter so it's still valid to assume that a spirit can come back to life on its own physical body if there is enough energy available to be consumed in order to achieve this task, this doesn't contradict the way the commander came back to life if you have played the story and remember what you had to do to escape the domain of the lost.

life force != magical energy

I'm not sure why you're trying to make the relation. While lore does show that life force could be tapped into as a replacement of magical energy (hence why things like soul batteries existed), there's no evidence of the inverse happening. And with the Commander's very unique situation, they were using the life force of souls being freed from a powerful demon to jump start a resurrection spell (had they relied on GW1's method of resurrection, too much time would have passed most likely).

This also means that any NPC, good or bad, big or small, could come back to life if there is enough energy to be spent to perform the task

And this would just be poor writing. There's a reason why the DC and Marvel comics are so convoluted that both had been given "restarts" several times over in the main runs.

I would extend this concept to Gods as well because they are NPCs.

Well, no. The lore implications presented throughout GW1 and GW2 indicate that the gods' magic is their soul - that, unlike for mortals, the two are one and the same. Similarly, a god's death results in their magic being volatilely unleashed, and the need for said magic to be contained or it would run out of control and destroy things (as seen with both Abaddon and Balthazar). Those who contain said magic would effectly be consuming the former god's soul - hence why Kormir establishes that she has Abaddon's power and knowledge but "his will is broken"; similarly, Aurene firmly establishes that she somehow has knowledge from Balthazar that she otherwise shouldn't at the beginning of War Eternal, by citing Balthazar's scriptures and by explaining where in the Mists they are despite never being there before.

And, again to pre-emptively deny you, I am not dictating the lore here. I am merely citing established lore dictated by the writers.

And retconning established lore is just bad writing that few would enjoy. Even you.

@Touchme.1097 said:

@anninke.7469 said:

@Touchme.1097 said:

I am sorry but I have to disagree with your flawed assumption

before Anet chooses to consider it canon for future references.The commander has suffered serious burns, cut wounds and ultimately been skewered by a huge big greatsword wide enough to split the body in two, the reason why you see no such conditions on the commander's body is because this game is PEGI 12 and it's not supposed to be too graphic on gore and violence. This doesn't mean the commander's body was resurrecction-worthy as you assume. For instance we don't know which race or gender the commander belongs to in canon so it could perfectly be an asura and the body ending as badly as Vlast or a Norn with a 30 inch hole on his/her body....Do you have any relevant source of information about precise state of the commander's body to support your claims?

The answer to your question can be found watching the cinematic, I don't have to prove to you any more details as the cinematic speaks for itself.Of course you can't see all the gore and violence the commander suffers in the cinematic, it's a PEGI 12 game, I have explained my point about this and I have been very clear.Ironic, since the cinematic doesn't at all establish anything you say, since the only thing the cinematic shows is a fireball to the face that deals the final blow. And the only

forced

hits on the player throughout the fight is the skill The Judgment of War, which is a magic sword coming out of the ground (this is the same skill that downs the player in the Flashpoint climactic battle, and is also used in scripted moments during the final battle if you don't interrupt him with Aurene).

[Touchme.1097]

@Konig Des Todes.2086I won't quote your post in my reply because it's really long. Thank you for doing your research and taking your time to write a lot of information about the lore in GW1.I have to admit I have made a mistake while presenting my argument so I am going to rephrase my point about the cinematic: "The commander suffered stab wounds, severe skin burns and a fireball the size of an Asura being thrown to his/her face capable to make the commander's head explode for the impact". I am sure we can agree about this now that we both double checked the cinematic.

Regards

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Touchme.1097 said:@Konig Des Todes.2086I won't quote your post in my reply because it's really long. Thank you for doing your research and taking your time to write a lot of information about the lore in GW1.I have to admit I have made a mistake while presenting my argument so I am going to rephrase my point about the cinematic: "The commander suffered stab wounds, severe skin burns and a fireball the size of an Asura being thrown to his/her face capable to make the commander's head explode for the impact". I am sure we can agree about this now that we both double checked the cinematic.

Regards

A fireball the size of an asura? Not really. The size of an asura's head? Maybe. Perspective can be a bitch at telling sizes, and that's got a warped perspective (and other filter effects going on) that makes it hard to make an exact measurement and comparison.

Also, "capable to make the commander's head explode for the impact" is also a huge stretch there, and unfounded statement you're trying to pass as true (the very thing you claimed I was doing). There is zero indication that the Commander's body was disfigured - and before you say "but PEGI 12!" we literally have a headlesss model in game. Two in fact. Possibly more I'm unaware of. Cross-section of the neck included! We also have severed arms, even as a weapon, and a model without hands with dialogue stating said hands were cut off. There's even dialogue about placing rotting pumpkins on hanged men's heads.

PEGI 12 allows for quite some gruesome stuff, in all honesty. Americans can be weird when it comes to appropriate and inappropriate things. Blood and gore? Okay. Swear words OH GOD NO OH GOD WHY WOULD YOU INCLUDE THAT!?

If nothing else, dialogue would indicate that the Commander's body was in very bad condition, especially if they were burned to ashes or had a missing head. But given that it never came up, and the only thing mentioned is that the Commander was confirmed dead, there's no reason to believe that the Commander's body was in such poor condition.

[Fenella.2634]

Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :)

However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make.So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace.

[EdwinLi.1284]

@Fenella.2634 said:Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :)

However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make.So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace.

I believe it is not just having the body in good condition but also the magical energy used to make it possible. Undead rising magic only has the effect of the body not fully functioning normally mostly because the magical energy for necromancy focus on keeping only the flesh functioning but does not restore the other functions that keeps the body from rotting.

The type of Magical energy used is always the largest factor on how the magic take its form and what results it produces.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Fenella.2634" said:Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :)

However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make.So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace.

While you are correct that the Commander's circumstances were very unique, no resurrection results in undeath of any form simply because of the spellcaster/school of magic/magical energy involved. In GW1, resurrection spells belonged exclusively to healer classes - monks, ritualists, and paragons - which seem to utilize the school of Preservation (and mechanically, used holy/light energy)- all three also merged into the Guardian; meanwhile, undeath spells belonged exclusively to the necromancer profession (no surprise), which utilized the school of Aggression (and mechanically, dark/unholy energy). So the Commander not becoming undead is rather "the very same as all other resurrections in the GW universe".

Also, there seems precedence that - outside of mechanics - being turned into an undead voids the possibility of resurrection (at the very least, no undead was ever later resurrected, nor was such attempted, and when labeling the two acts together as something Dhuum despised, they were mentioned as separate things).

Whether an individual would be resurrected or become undead would most likely depend on whether it's a guardian or necromancer spell being performed (to use GW2 professions), but there's the entire matter of would it even work to consider.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Touchme.1097" said:I am not talking about all the NPCs in the game, I am pointing my finger to the main NPCs who follow the commander in almost every story chapter, I have played all the available story PoF has to offer and I am currently playing LS2 and there are always Taimi, Caithe, Kasmeer, Marjory and Rox as female characters and Braham, Canach and Rytlock as male NPCs.Taimi wasn't seen at all from the end of S4 until last ep of Icebrood.Caithe wasn't seen at all from the end of S4 until last ep of Icebrood.Kasmeer has had maybe 5 lines in Icebrood? Weren't she and Jory in some undisclosed location during the bulk of s4?Have we even seen Rox since Dragonfall?Marjory had maybe 3 lines in Icebrood Ep 1, freaked out and didnt return until the DRMs?

I dunno man.... your post seems kinda weird.

Do you want to know what I don't like? I don't like NPCs who behave like teenagers, I am tired of listening to the annoying voice of *Taimi and the Kasmeer+Marjory sisteromance. Enough boys, Anet, give this game proper manly NPCs.oh.... one of "those".

[Touchme.1097]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Touchme.1097" said:I am not talking about all the NPCs in the game, I am pointing my finger to the main NPCs who follow the commander in almost every story chapter, I have played all the available story PoF has to offer and I am currently playing LS2 and there are always Taimi, Caithe, Kasmeer, Marjory and Rox as female characters and Braham, Canach and Rytlock as male NPCs.Taimi wasn't seen at all from the end of S4 until last ep of Icebrood.Caithe wasn't seen at all from the end of S4 until last ep of Icebrood.Kasmeer has had maybe 5 lines in Icebrood? Weren't she and Jory in some undisclosed location during the bulk of s4?Have we even seen Rox since Dragonfall?Marjory had maybe 3 lines in Icebrood Ep 1, freaked out and didnt return until the DRMs?

I dunno man.... your post seems kinda weird.

Do you want to know what I don't like? I don't like NPCs who behave like teenagers, I am tired of listening to the annoying voice of *Taimi and the Kasmeer+Marjory sisteromance. Enough boys, Anet, give this game proper manly NPCs.oh.... one of "those".

My argument is not weird at all, if you think so please quote the parts you see any weirdness and define weirdness please so we can understand each other.Also, what do you mean I am one of "those"? Are you calling me one of those because I mentioned the word manly? Does masculinity in an online game scare you or what?What is wrong in being manly exactly? You tell me...This thread so far has been very useful and the people writing here polite enough, the debate helps people understand and make sense of the current Lore available to us, this goes perfectly in line with the topic.I am very pleased with all the lore debate I have had so far as I have never played GW1 before and that part of the lore is not well known to me and I think many other people will find it interesting to dive deep into the lore.

[Fenella.2634]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Fenella.2634" said:Well, alright, I also was not aware it was actually established lore from GW1 that bodies had to be in a reasonably good shape. :)

However, that whole argument aside. What also sets apart the PC from most other resurrections in the GW universe, is that the PC did not become Risen, Awakened, a necromancer's minion or any other kind of undead. Even with resurrections being a thing in this universe, death always matters. Our circumstances were very, very special and unique. I don't suppose other characters could easily find their own Eater of Souls to kill, plus a deal with an Avatar of Grenth to make.So, even if Trahearne, Vlast or anyone else could somehow manage to get a body back, they would most likely not return like the PC did, but as an undead. Do we really want that? Maybe it's better to let them rest in peace.

While you are correct that the Commander's circumstances were very unique, no resurrection results in undeath of any form simply because of the spellcaster/school of magic/magical energy involved. In GW1, resurrection spells belonged exclusively to healer classes - monks, ritualists, and paragons - which seem to utilize the school of Preservation (and mechanically, used holy/light energy)- all three also merged into the Guardian; meanwhile, undeath spells belonged exclusively to the necromancer profession (no surprise), which utilized the school of Aggression (and mechanically, dark/unholy energy). So the Commander not becoming undead is rather "the very same as all other resurrections in the GW universe".Wait, player gameplay deaths are canon deaths? I always thought they were just unconscious or something and the resurrection spells were not exactly resurrections.

[Keith McManus.4208]

please not trahearne. first, his sacrifice is noble and important. 2nd, he is super chatty, my friends and i have spent so much time cursing at his lengthy dialogues in storyline. leave him in peace, please.

[Teratus.2859]

Hmm..I'm going to throw this one out there but I don't think the physical "condition" of the corpse is as relevant as some of you have been arguing about here.

Thinking back on Gw1.. Minions were a thing and back then they used and were made from corpses, so you could die and your corpse could have been defiled to create minions and you could still be resurrected despite your spine and muscular system running around smacking things, you simply get new ones XDI know this is just a mechanical thing but lets just consider it for the sake of argument.

When you die in these games your soul finds it's way to the mists, I would say that this natural process is basically the time limit for resurrection before your soul becomes part of the mists and there is no longer enough life in your body for you to be resurrected.Once the Soul is gone for too long, resurrection becomes almost impossible.In Gw1 resurrection magic was very common as Konig has pointed out several times and yet there were still deaths in the game which all ultimately shared a common circumstance.That being there were no friendly beings around to revive them in time.. so they died for good.

In Gw2 this resurrection magic has been lost because Grenth and Dwayna have left Tyria and resurrection was largely possible because of those two Gods.I believe the resurrection magic itself largely came from Dwayna but it was Grenth that allowed fresh souls to leave the mists and return to their bodies while it was still possible.In regards to Dhuum, he actually wished to stop this practice as he hated the concept of resurrection and ruthlessly hunted down those who cheated death.. the greatest of insults that he took very personally.This mechanically took form in his Gw1 fight as well as defeated players were not allowed to resurrect and their souls were instantly torn from their bodies and became spirits which had to continue the fight in their dead form.

Without Dwayna and Grenth resurrection is now extremely rare magic.And as has been said the Commander's circumstances were special as well.We ended up in the Domain of the Lost rather than the afterlife we were meant to go to due to the circumstances of our death.We were able to speak to and learn of a possible way to resurrect ourselves from The Judge, one of the last servants of Grenth.We were able to harvest the life force of a powerful "living" Demonic creature to fuel our resurrection after we had been dead for too long.

So the requirements appear to be.You need a corpse to go back too.. in the case of Vlast and Traherne this wasn't an option, Vlast blew up and Traherne was physically corrupted and mutated.. had he been resurrected he would have been revived in the same state he was and would probably have died again due to the dead, rotting dragon he was connected too.

There also needs to be enough life in your body or you must find an adequate living substitute in the afterlife (a Demon or living being) and take that life energy, while we were able to do this in the story this is not something most would be able to accomplish very easily or even have the option of trying in most case's.

I think it may also be important to note the difference between resurrection and reanimation as well.Resurrection magic appears to restore the body and the soul upon revival, This is why the Commander is not an Undead being and is very much alive and not decaying.

Reanimation revives the corpse in a state of undeath under the control of a "master" being and can be done with or without the soul, like the Awakened.

Honestly the odd one out here is Aurine since the circumstances of her "resurrection" was the very very very bad excuse of "Lich magic"By all rights she should be an undead being since Lich Magic is strongly speculated to be associated with Necromancy but these kinds of arguments have been had many times in the past and there's no point getting into all that again.Lich's in the Guildwars franchise are far far to poorly explained and there is far far too little information and lore about them despite them having such prominent roles in some of this franchises campaigns..This is one of the reasons why so many of us were so annoyed by the whole "Lich Magic" excuse for Aurine's revival in the first place.

Once this whole Elder Dragon story is over and we can see Gw2 go in new directions then I am heavily in favour of exploring and fleshing out Lich's in this franchise, as well as Demons and diving more into the afterlife concepts.These areas are all high interests for me personally and I want to know more about them and experience them more in game.

[deatine.2498]

I always wondered: Sylvari sometimes say about other dead Sylvari "they are with our mother again" or something like that. And we know memories and thoughts of Sylvari can be accessed through the dream by each other, or at least by the mother tree, even if just vaguely.

If it is actually true that the afterlife for Sylvari (normally) means returning to the dream, can they simply be reborn into another body?

The whole species is like what, 30 years old? Not that many Sylvari have actually died. Necromancer/resurrection lore from before the Sylvaris' existence might not apply to them.