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Why Rune Of The Trapper Needs To Go - Short Video Inside


Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:Thematically it's fine for DH to have access to stealth.

snip

Guardian is the polar opposite of what thief is, so of course it's fine for them to have access to the same tools. After all they are being different by being the same. Dude what?

Yeah pretty simple, DH has access to Longbow and Ranger has access to longbow. Ranger has access to stealth so for DH is fine to have access to stealth.

So because ranger has access to longbow, DH is allowed to have stealth. W H A T ?

Also DH thematically is a hunter

"As dragons continue stirring in the land of Tyria, guardians have been honing their light into a physical nature, sharp and deadly enough to pierce scales. The dragonhunter specialization will look to viciously purge the lands of dragons and their ilk, with longbow and traps now at hand. As their prowess with light has increased, they are able to physically manifest their virtues into the world."

So ehm... sounds like a fighter to me. How is this the description of a hunter? Or is it thematically a hunter because it has hunter in its name? That would make deadeye thematically dead... which would honestly explain some things.

with a single target weapon,There is nothing single target on DH-s longbow. The autoattack bounces, True Shot Pierces, DS has no target cap whatsoever, slot 4 and 5 are just plain old AoE-s.

so it should be fine for a hunter get access to some sort of stealth. Because the weapon is single target is fine also to get access to stealth as a defensive utility when it is fighting a group.

Literally nothing you're saying makes sense. Stealth as a defensive utility works on sidenodes, or offpoint chases, where the enemy actually has to avoid traps. In the chaos of a teamfight your traps are usually instantly set off. Burn DH does not teamfight, it pokes at teamfights, combos with Dragons Maw, but never sticks around. That's not a playstyle guardian should have access to, period.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardian is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.That just make it... good at AoE.

1v1 a trapper DH is one of the worst condi specs in my experience fighting them with a 1v1 specced heavier condi bruiser. Its predictable and has little to no cover condis.

A thief is far more dangerous, unpredictable and can easily build to be tougher (cleanse on evade is my nemesis).

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

If he's using his heal, elite and a utility to disengage. Yes.How is this any different from a scrapper stealth gyro and superspeeding away?

Because medium class Engineer from day 1 was designed around the idea to have a bit of stealth, team AoE stealth even. Guardian on the other hand, has been being balance for years around being a heavy bruiser spec and sometime support, that is slow and doesn't have stealth. It was given a lot of statistical parameters to make up for NOT having high mobility and stealth.

This isn't too hard to figure out here, why it's over performing.

@Megametzler.5729 said:I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

  1. I double checked: You run around there for
    12 seconds
    until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed.
    He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.
  2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap.
    Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!

This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it.

What does that have to do with the fact that he can stealth and traverse that long of a distance, regardless of the time taken, without me being able to tell where he is?

That's the point, DHs being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers.

I don't understand the attention deficit here in this thread. Next I'm going to have someone come in here and argue with me about the colors of the outfits the characters in the video were wearing.

Its almost as if trapper runes were added with DH. Meaning dh was very much designed around that rune in mind.

But hey, what do i know.

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I actually agree that trapper rune stealth should be removed, because I think it will help expose just how bad a state guardian is actually in now

Superspeed stealth of course is a strong mechanic and it seems odd that something so powerful would be based in rune choice rather than class and spec choice.

Quite frankly playing anything other than condi DPS or a variant of condi DPS on guardian is straight up trolling. Guardian has always suffered more than any other class a severe lack of mobility and a total inability to kite away from chasing players.

Support is slow, telegraphed, easy to read and extremely clunky in PvP (seriously axe autos are terrible in PvP and guard slow speed in general makes melee autos basically impossible to land on good players) and power is even more telegraphed and easy to avoid.

Here's the 3 main issues with cond right now, and more specifically Dragon Hunter condi.

  1. Permeating wrath is obnoxiously strong in teamfights. This skill has been overperforming for so long. For those that don't know, permeating wrath increases the rate at which you activate burning passive by 40%, then applies it in AoE for good measure. This needs a nerf from 3 hits to 4

  2. Dragonhunter has a skill that refreshes passive on block. Dragonhunter can block, a lot. F3 can give several seconds of frontal block. If the DH is blocking stuff and spamming scepter 1 or even manages to land a symbol whilst blocking a multihit burst, it can refresh the passive multiple times per second in ideal circumstances. If this situation involves you walking into procession of bladestoo, chances are you are going to be suddenly hit with large numbers of burn stacks very quickly.There used to be builds that would burn enemies on block automatically, but this was considered so broken and strong that it was removed entirely. Why does an even more powerful, non cool down gated version exist on DragonHunter?

  3. Maw is a great skill. Maw that is somehow able to port with the player if he times sword 2 properly is a broken mess. Guard used to be able to do the awesome greatsword 3 into Judges intervention that was apparently considered so broken OP they decided to remove it from the game. Now we have something with a much stronger effect, and honestly this time the interaction really is stupidly broken.

I see cries for nerfs on traps, passive burning etc but the above issues are causing most problems for 9/10 complainees. These must be addressed if guardian can ever have some proper balance.

It's a shame I so rarely see these issues brought up and it strongly leads me to believe that a lot of complaints about a lot of classes come from a severe lack of understanding of strengths and weaknesses of classes, which is exacerbated by most players meta slaving rather than experimenting and really getting to grips with the classes they play.

Guard desperately needs better and faster animations for tomes, and more importantly guard needs some kiting options that exist outside of DH F2. It just sucks to play now when one of your most effective builds is a cheesy meme that makes forumers cry way too much (and who don't understand the root of the problems)

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If you spec your build for a specific purpose, it should be able to do it to some extent, regardless of how similar it is to other classes. Nobody cares about class themes, those went out the window long ago with elite specs that are supposed to change how a class plays.

If building to be mesmer or thieflike means they sacrifice pretty much all forms of sustain for damage and mobility, which is only raw movement speed outside of F2 and sword port, then it sounds like they earned it. Seriously, immob this build and they can't run anywhere without a target to sword port away to, whereas thief and Mesmer have numerous other means of escape in situations they get caught up in. Is shiro rev too thief and mesmer like because it's super mobile? Oh it doesn't have stealth so that makes it different, maybe? Not really because rev is still much harder to catch.This build has serious flaws that people refuse to exploit and continue to bash their heads against then come to the forums. It's depressing, especially when any statements not calling it busted gets you accused of defending it because we supposedly play it. Nope, I just know how to deal with it. Either learn how to do so as well or continue to be frustrated by it.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.

Right.

But his point was that you shouldn't be able to be a heavy-bruiser AND be able to skip around teamfights with stealth.

MY point was that trapper-DH is NOT both a heavy-bruiser and a stealthy-boy. It's just a stealthy-boy that is just as vulnerable as thief if you take away stealth.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.

More like the part where you can drop everything on point and go somewhere else yet still contribute to the team fight, a lot. I like how people here think that massive AoE spam on point is somehow the same as squishy thief smashing his single target dagger attack, in melee range.

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Wow good ol gw2 forum members lol these reasonings being posted defending guards access to stealth is humourous lol.Regardless of hp does guards have stealth in their innate kit, do any of guards specs have stealth in their kits? Where any of the specs designed to use stealth in or out of combat judging by their kits? Do u think the dh spec was designed with the use of trapper rune? If one random run (trapper was removed would any guard specs have on demand access to stealth? Is trapper rune innate part of guard or its specs kits?Was guard and its specs designed to engage in combat without the use of stealth and thus given defensive skills to do so thus was balanced around sustaining itself in combat without stealth?Sry but only the last question is a yes.Anyone saying they cant understand why players are saying guard and its specs wernt designed to have on demand access to stealth are 1- being disingenuous and just arguing against the fact cuz the like the broken combination or 2- shouldn't be on forums making any discussions as they clearly are not knowledgeable nor do they have the level of understanding of the game to be making claims within a thread.Just saying.Good example for u all.Let's add a ruin that gives a spec aegis on reveal or at the end of a teleport, would the community rally for its removal due to the fact it would be broken on thief? I think it would and their totally reasonable arguement would be thst thief wasn't designed to have access to a on demand block like aegis right :). The community would be in a uproar but not surprisingly this community are hypocrites when it serve them and their chosen class bias.

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@CutesySylveon.8290 said:If you spec your build for a specific purpose, it should be able to do it to some extent, regardless of how similar it is to other classes. Nobody cares about class themes, those went out the window long ago with elite specs that are supposed to change how a class plays.

None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness.Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:If you spec your build for a specific purpose, it should be able to do it to some extent, regardless of how similar it is to other classes. Nobody cares about class themes, those went out the window long ago with elite specs that are supposed to change how a class plays.

None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness.Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter.

This^ rework trapper & speed runes.Good thing necro staff skills which function similar to traps aren't effected by trap runes as well, we'd have teleporting stealth necro's abound lol.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:(...)

@Megametzler.5729 said:I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

  1. I double checked: You run around there for
    12 seconds
    until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed.
    He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.
  2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap.
    Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!

This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it.

What does that have to do with the fact that he can stealth and traverse that long of a distance, regardless of the time taken, without me being able to tell where he is?

That's the point, DHs being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers.

I don't understand the attention deficit here in this thread. Next I'm going to have someone come in here and argue with me about the colors of the outfits the characters in the video were wearing.

He "traversed a long distance"? He walked. Yes, 3 seconds of stealth, but if you didn't stand in a canyon without any view to the sides you could have seen him. Hell, just looking at your pet for a second would have helped you.

There is a lot of points against the current iteration of burn DH, but this is not one. Your whole starting point is wrong because he never teleported or had long stealth duration nor was he quick at all. The DH is not "thieving" or "mesmering" or even "reving" at all, he walked over to his point in 12 seconds.

But maybe that is some time perception deficit by some people without any idea what actually happened and just like to complain about things that never have happened at all...

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Wow good ol gw2 forum members lol these reasonings being posted defending guards access to stealth is humourous lol.Regardless of hp does guards have stealth in their innate kit, do any of guards specs have stealth in their kits? Where any of the specs designed to use stealth in or out of combat judging by their kits? Do u think the dh spec was designed with the use of trapper rune? If one random run (trapper was removed would any guard specs have on demand access to stealth? Is trapper rune innate part of guard or its specs kits?Was guard and its specs designed to engage in combat without the use of stealth and thus given defensive skills to do so thus was balanced around sustaining itself in combat without stealth?Sry but only the last question is a yes.Anyone saying they cant understand why players are saying guard and its specs wernt designed to have on demand access to stealth are 1- being disingenuous and just arguing against the fact cuz the like the broken combination or 2- shouldn't be on forums making any discussions as they clearly are not knowledgeable nor do they have the level of understanding of the game to be making claims within a thread.Just saying.Good example for u all.Let's add a ruin that gives a spec aegis on reveal or at the end of a teleport, would the community rally for its removal due to the fact it would be broken on thief? I think it would and their totally reasonable arguement would be thst thief wasn't designed to have access to a on demand block like aegis right :). The community would be in a uproar but not surprisingly this community are hypocrites when it serve them and their chosen class bias.

Trapper runes were added with hot. Same expansion that have guardian traps. Guardian was the only class that got given traps, so more likely than not; the rune was designed for dh.

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@Math.5123 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Wow good ol gw2 forum members lol these reasonings being posted defending guards access to stealth is humourous lol.Regardless of hp does guards have stealth in their innate kit, do any of guards specs have stealth in their kits? Where any of the specs designed to use stealth in or out of combat judging by their kits? Do u think the dh spec was designed with the use of trapper rune? If one random run (trapper was removed would any guard specs have on demand access to stealth? Is trapper rune innate part of guard or its specs kits?Was guard and its specs designed to engage in combat without the use of stealth and thus given defensive skills to do so thus was balanced around sustaining itself in combat without stealth?Sry but only the last question is a yes.Anyone saying they cant understand why players are saying guard and its specs wernt designed to have on demand access to stealth are 1- being disingenuous and just arguing against the fact cuz the like the broken combination or 2- shouldn't be on forums making any discussions as they clearly are not knowledgeable nor do they have the level of understanding of the game to be making claims within a thread.Just saying.Good example for u all.Let's add a ruin that gives a spec aegis on reveal or at the end of a teleport, would the community rally for its removal due to the fact it would be broken on thief? I think it would and their totally reasonable arguement would be thst thief wasn't designed to have access to a on demand block like aegis right :). The community would be in a uproar but not surprisingly this community are hypocrites when it serve them and their chosen class bias.

Trapper runes were added with hot. Same expansion that have guardian traps. Guardian was the only class that got given traps, so more likely than not; the rune was designed for dh.

Thief had traps but were changed and are now preperation and don't work with the rune and ranger has traps as well, I assure u the trappers rune was not added and designed for dh, it was simply a rune added that ended up having a broken interaction with the dh class, simple as that.

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@Math.5123 said:Its almost as if trapper runes were added with DH. Meaning dh was very much designed around that rune in mind.

But hey, what do i know.

Actually rune of the dragon hunter was designed to work with dh traps, seeing how dh traps are purely power and as the runeset gives power and ferocity and lots of might.Rune of the trapper was designed to work primarily with (the now deleted) thief traps as they were based on condition damage and cc, and due to the major fact that thief traps dealt no power damage upon triggering meaning the stealth from the rune would not have gotten removed by someone triggering said traps. Rangers were the 3rd class with traps, and theirs were a mix between power and condi.

Now to run through some memories: thief traps got nerfed to do damage upon triggering in order to prevent stealth camping (this was done only when a thief managed to solo a literal raid boss with a trapper build), and later thief traps got removed altogether for preparations. Meanwhile rangers had a trap gm trait, one which allowed them to throw traps as if they were grenades, that enabled them to stack stealth by yeeting traps aside so they wouldn't get triggered and reveal the ranger. This trait got removed and reworked in to the skirmishing trap trait we have today.All of this paints a picture that this rune set breaks the trap utility type, and will be a HUGE issue if another elite spec gets traps as a utility skill.

Rework the 6th runeset effect to something else; end of story.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@foste.3098 said:All of this paints a picture that this rune set breaks the trap utility type, and will be a HUGE issue if another elite spec gets traps as a utility skill.Yet here people are, arguing the dh when theres trapper druids running around with just as deadly condi specs, more mobility and immo for years on top.

Ur not wrong, imob driud is a very strong build but the difference is the the druid doesn't absolutely need the trapper rune to be effective, it just synergize well with it and whether in combination makes it op is another argument but it doesn't 100% need the rune. What makes druid build part of the spam braindead squad is its access to imobilize and how its applied, the vines hp need a hard nerf in hp and the seed trait reworked. Again like guard if buffs are in order for druid to compensate to keep druid viable but requiring a more skillful playstyle and less brain dead cheese than I'm 100% for it.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Wow good ol gw2 forum members lol these reasonings being posted defending guards access to stealth is humourous lol.

Indeed.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. If you diagree, why don't you list some of the sustain tools that would allow a burn-trapper-DH to stay in a 4v4, that a thief could not build an equivalent for?

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true. Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.
And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.
Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.
And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.
Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a
heavy bruiser
too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so
heavy
outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.
And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.
Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously.

Why are you allowed to discount damage mitigated by evade? Can I discount damage blocked?

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@"Ragnar.4257"

lol you're right actually. We did have two supports in that match.

Doesn't change my point though that Trap DH is not as squishy as a Thief in a 4v4. DHs have a lot of front loaded defenses like Focus 5, F3 Shield, Sword 3 which stops projectiles, Shield 5 bubble, and they get protection. And that's not even going into the truth behind how a lot of offensive pressure is as good as a defense. When a lot of offensive pressure//CC is laid down, it forces players to defense cycle rather than attack to begin with. Then most of the condi damage in the game aside from Necros & Guardian burn, rolls off of projectile based attacks right now, which Guardian is good at nullifying. It appears as if Trap DH had less sustain due to the lack of defensive utilities & traits, but realistically they have so much AoE dps pressure & CC, as well as a few other defensive measures, that they fair just fine in the middle of a team fight, clearly.

A Thief on the other hand, it doesn't matter how much support is riding it. A Thief still explodes on impact in the middle of a team fight if 2 or 3 guys target him, regardless of if he had a FB glued to his hip. We both know that's true so stop acting like it isn't.

But rewinding back to the original point of this post: Keep in mind that I never claimed DH or Trap Rune was OP. I said that DHs shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like actual thieves & mesmers. Some of you keep trying to turn this into some kind of justification that "DH needs the runes or that DH isn't as strong as everyone seems to think", which isn't the point of what I said. I merely stated my opinion that it was dumb in 2021 when we have heavy classes thieving & mesmering off the use of a rune #6 ability.

It would be different if they designed a new elite spec for oh say a Guardian, that was entirely configured around granting it stealthing measures in a balanced sort of way. But when something like a DH is getting a lot of stealth & super speed off a rune #6 ability, lol come on man. I mean come on. I mean if people want to justify this, how would they feel when Reapers had 3+ seconds of stealth and super speed each time they entered shroud, or if a Spellbreaker had 3+ seconds of stealth every time he swapped weapons? At some point people need to recognize when too much is too much.

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