Eventscaling and instant killing mobs

[moony.5780]

Does anyone else have issues with the currect events in central tyria? And also in some other events with monster waves.The difficult part in the event are not the monster, but the other player that kill the mobs in a blink of an eye. So its hard to get even a lil loot.

[Tyncale.1629]

There are some classes that have extreme burst damage for sure, you see a clump of enemies, then some flashy whirlwind attack and 2 seconds later they are all gone. But I guess they can't keep that up forever. :) I am doing ok tagging mobs with my scourge and sand shades, it must be a lot worse for other classes.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I do experience the problem quite often, more frequently in lower-level areas.

There are a couple of events which do not scale very well with the numbers. There is a cap, once that is reached the NPCs neither increase in numbers or strength. Most of the old world-bosses fall into that category, as well as a couple of random dynamic events. When this happens at worldbosses, you can watch their HP melt within < 1 min.

It is actually not the event-scaling that causes the problems, it is the level-scaling and the non-existent power-creep. The level scaling was introduced as a mechanic to allow highlevel players to participate in low-level areas without feeling like being on god-mode. In theory, your level and stats get adjusted by the algorithm to be almost equal with players who only have the recommended level of the area.

The algorithm works best, the smaller the gap between your real level and the level of the environment is. If an outmaxed level 80 character enters a level 1-15 map, they can still almost 1-shot everything. They have exotic gear, superior runes & sigils, full access to traitlines, sometimes even Elite Specializations and are quite often very well buffed. It can be very difficult to land a single hit during certain events. If you happen to suffer from network issues, it is a gamble.

There is even a possibility to mess up badly. As I mentioned before, the algorithm does a great job in lower levels. If you happen to use a level 40 character, with level 20 gear and you happen to enter a zone below your current level, your stats will drop massively. The algorithm thinks "Oh boy, there is a level 40 player who is geared properly, I'll do my job and lower that players stats properly." This can hurt a lot.

[Dawdler.8521]

This has been an issue since the launch 8 years ago so dont hold your breath for a fix... The problem is that traps/marks trigger before the spawned mob is even visible. With enough of them mobs instantly die.

[Fuchslein.8639]

While I started my new account and lvlt without mounts and everything, I encountered this a lot. The advantage there was that most move on as soon as they have once killed a wave of an event so that you later still had enough mobs to kill.But I've also experienced many things where I got absolutely nothing because even Vet's are absolutely no problem for many to kill in few seconds. And if they also make the first hit with the mount you have simply lost if you do not stalk these events and be always there before it starts. I had one day really bad luck, I think there were dailies for Queensdale and when an event popped up at me I could already forget it ... Even if it was a bit longer, the lvl 80er are often rushed there full rota to have to stay no second longer. After that I have a week or so no longer played because I was so annoyed ^^''.(And then I used my earned folianten and jumped straight to POF x) )

The scaling was once really good, but with HOT and now POF is everything what Core is simply in the disadvantage.

[BlueJin.4127]

For zergs and daily map events, I recommend using a long range weapon and skills with good AOE so that you can tag. Keep in mind that all you need is to get in like 1 hit to get credit for most regular events.

Warrior: Longbow. This actually sucks, but rifle has no AOE.Guardian: Longbow, scepter, Sword of Justice.Revenant: Hammer.Ranger: Axe bounces. Longbow can pierce with the right talent, but may not be easy to AOE with.Thief: Shortbow bounces.Engineer: Pistols, rifle, Grenade Kit, and turrets.Necromancer: Axe and shout skills.Elementalist: Scepter, staff, AOE skills.Mesmer: Greatsword.

It really doesn't matter if there's a huge group of players melting things. With the above weapons/skills, you really shouldn't have any problems getting credit.

[Hesione.9412]

The problem isn't so much the mobs as it is inconsiderate players. The number of times I have asked in map chat for players with mounts to not use them, and to hold back on dps so the lower level players can get credit.....

Perhaps one way to go forward is to make mobs on all central Tyria maps immune to mount skills, in addition to the player nerf.

Or, as I have suggested in a thread long ago, stop the events in central Tyria being a daily for level 80 players. Level 80s who mentor other players will still be on those maps, because they are there for altruistic reasons, and it should stop the swarm of 80s descending on the maps and ruining the experience for the lower level players.

If anyone reading this thread is one of the posters about "the game is dying", this is how you kill a game. Make the play experience frustrating/negative for new players.

[moony.5780]

Im usually playing staff on elementalist...so im doing kinda fine if i know exactly where the monster gona spawn. But its so much stressig to land a hit on the monster at least 1 time, that i dont even rezz people anymore (bcs it takes time and they steal my loot) which is horrible!! and actually teamplay should be first and suppported.....my current favorite event is when there r 10 dead player so i can kill the small monster wave of 7 monster by myself :/

Bcs i felt so horrible about my behaviour i got myself 1 tab for only lvl 5 gear...now i need like 20 hites for a kill (can also be pretty fast if full AOE with ele :/) and that way im really more relaxed and can heal other more.

@"Hesione.9412" said:The problem isn't so much the mobs as it is inconsiderate players. The number of times I have asked in map chat for players with mounts to not use them, and to hold back on dps so the lower level players can get credit.....If anyone reading this thread is one of the posters about "the game is dying", this is how you kill a game. Make the play experience frustrating/negative for new players.

I think what u said is so true! and honestly it really annoys me how the events and characters r scaled. Thats why i tried out myself many things :

• Lvl 80 Character on full asc minstrels gear -> Overpowered
• Lvl 80 Character with no gear except weapon -> still very overpowered
• Full lvl 5 gear only and no power stats -> a little overpowered
• Full lvl 5 gear only and only defencive traits without any boons like might,furry, quickness -> Perfect in events, but weak normal play

So for me the last option is really working great also because i like challanges. But it made me realise how weakly events r scaled....for example in this screenshot u can see how many wurms came at 1 wave with 6 player beeing there:

(Anyone knows how to insert a screenshot here? :D)

The Picture shows 4 wurms for 6 player.....so if 1 player can make aoe damg for like 3-5 monster..then only 1 of the 6 player can kill them fast and a 2nd get maybe also some hits. So by default 3 get nothing for beeing in the event for like 4 minutes...... And all of them are new character ! How can this be not a problem?

So now...to investigate more, i got a 60 years old guy with no MMO or Action experience (who usually do play games, but only played pure strategy games before) to install gw2 and i watch him play while explaining what to do.He was able to kill everything with 2-4 hits with autoattack on ranger longbow. I noticed how confused he was when the fight was over so fast, while he just noticed that there is a fight going on. Honestly, walking and controlling the camera was so hard for him, that his pet usually killed everything.After a while i came with my weakest version of my elementalist and helped out with fights. I lured like 3-5 monster and made them attack me. I tried my best to stay alive without hitting any monster...Such a fight usually took around 5-10 seconds, untill all ~4 Monster are dead.

So ready for battle, we went for the events....We have missed around 30% of the events while walking towards them. If we went to events with a Mentor/Commander Tag, we missed around 70%.I only remember 1 event that was really great at start. It was the Bandit waves at Queensdale. I told him they spawn at the house...so there were like 30 player within the area, but only 6 playing activly at the spawn. That was the first time after the tutorial he actually felt like something big is going on and it is really an event. But once more player came to the spawn, he only saw the monster wave for like 3 seconds....could attack only 1 maximum..and see the monster dying while he just noticed they were there.... It was really depressing for him and also for me, because all i could tell him was "sorry, u need to be the fastest if u want to get loot".....

I played the game at launch....it was a completly different experience for me back then. Events easily had 100 monster per wave. It was a complete war/massacre. And i loved it so much!

I know that making such monster waves again will be a problem, because people might just farm a few events then. But what if events r scaled better that every event of the same cathegory would be the same rewarding? And that every event will leave an impression, either by its difficulty and how happy u r to finish it+get the great reward. Or if u see someone u r even happier, because there will be a bigger monster wave comming at you with loot.

I wrote a lot..but i just noticed how bad the game became at something that made guild wars 2 really special.People should be happy so see each other and make stuff together and the more the better! In ANY event, not just metas.

Every person plays different and need a difficulty that is just right for him/her. In most solo games someone can choose the difficulty. What about adding this also here for open world? If outside battle everyone can just adjust his/her own downscaling with just 1-3 mouseclicks? Then people have the chance to fast switch back fast to normal, if there is a really strong metas going on, that might fail.But if there was no special reward for downscaling urself, then i guess less people would do that. So what if the magic find would be like +15% per downscaled lvl (max 10 lvl below recomended lvl). Or what do u guys think would be a good but non gamebreaking reward?

[Naxos.2503]

A sidenote to your remarks : Staff elementalist frequently require windups and is generally a slow but powerful weapon. It doesn't surprise me that enemies are killed by someone else before you can land a couple of hits. Staff is the equivalent to an artillery support weapon. It is efficient when you have a group protecting you and you attack another group. For fast and mobile range combat, I'd recommend a scepter, whose projectiles are much faster and windups near instant. Secondary weapon could be either a focus or dagger, both complement Scepter well.

The "issue" with the game as it is, is that many strong and high level players will frequently roam low level areas for various reasons, all legitimate. They could be trying to get materials, do map completion, hunt events, or actually try to accompany a new player through the game for example. And many of those high level players are using top of the shelf gear, along with dedicated builds. Among those builds, High DPS is very prominent, as many game modes glorify the high numbers, and many players do not change gear between modes (why would they, it works just as well). Downscaling is meant to do just that, and it does it most of the time. Now the problem is : A dedicated DPS build Still would do -that- much damage even when their level is much lower. That's just how the combination of specializations, rune, sigil and skill use works, even without stats backing them up.

Theorically, if you wanted to put Everyone into the same level playing field, you'd need to remove specializations from those high level players, depending on which zone level area they are in, and then, you'd cause a massive mess for those players, because you'd either remove specialization lines (a player would have only 2 or even 1 specialization line available at one time) or the traits themselves (to simulate a player not having unlocked some of those traits at this stage of the game). There are two problems with that : Beside the elite specialization line, it's impossible to guess which specialization players slot in what line, and just removing the line would mean having players stop and remake their build every time they enter a map, a major frustration. Secondly, it negates the progress they've achieved with their character completely, a very unpleasant feeling, that few developpers would risk causing in their playerbase.

[Luthan.5236]

Are there a lot of specific events where this is being a problem - cause of achievements and stuff? Or for unique rewards? Cause just for exp and normal loot you can go elsewhere.

I remember the shatterer crystal (still have not finished it cause it is boring to farm) achievement needed me some time to be fast (when I tried at the beginning with mount) to even get credit for 1.

[moony.5780]

I think it would be nice if player could choose if they 1 shot everything full geared or get 2-4 lvl downscaled more but get better rewards

[moony.5780]

Also to be fair,...some of the new events in central tyria r really cool :) challanging and u r happy if a lvl 80 character is there

[Fuchslein.8639]

@moony.5780 said:I think it would be nice if player could choose if they 1 shot everything full geared or get 2-4 lvl downscaled more but get better rewards

Why should there be better rewards because you get downscaled a lil bit in a low LVL area? oo

[moony.5780]

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@moony.5780 said:I think it would be nice if player could choose if they 1 shot everything full geared or get 2-4 lvl downscaled more but get better rewards

Why should there be better rewards because you get downscaled a lil bit in a low LVL area? oo

1) Killing 10 mobs in 5 sec should not give 90% less loot compared to killing 1 mob in 5 sec2) people will have a benefit from choosing the volenteer downscaling and will use it maybe more often (if someone doesnt want then he/she just dont activate it :))

2-4 lvl downscaling can sometimes be already good and enough...but i guess making it more flexible (with a cap of 15 maybe? there should be some cap) and each lvl downscaling is forexample 10% mf.

But also in lvl 80 areas this should work, bcs also there sometimes the 1 shot problem is there.

[Fuchslein.8639]

@moony.5780 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@moony.5780 said:I think it would be nice if player could choose if they 1 shot everything full geared or get 2-4 lvl downscaled more but get better rewards

Why should there be better rewards because you get downscaled a lil bit in a low LVL area? oo

1) Killing 10 mobs in 5 sec should not give 90% less loot compared to killing 1 mob in 5 sec2) people will have a benefit from choosing the volenteer downscaling and will use it maybe more often (if someone doesnt want then he/she just dont activate it :))

2-4 lvl downscaling can sometimes be already good and enough...but i guess making it more flexible (with a cap of 15 maybe? there should be some cap) and each lvl downscaling is forexample 10% mf.

But also in lvl 80 areas this should work, bcs also there sometimes the 1 shot problem is there.

For me, this is more of an invitation that low lvl areas will be overrun by veteran's who will take little consideration for newcomers (as it is atm already during dailies).In many areas you would have to be extremely set down, not only in LVL.I find Hesione.9412 idea much better to simply remove very low LVl areas completely from the Event-dailies.

[moony.5780]

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@moony.5780 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@moony.5780 said:I think it would be nice if player could choose if they 1 shot everything full geared or get 2-4 lvl downscaled more but get better rewards

Why should there be better rewards because you get downscaled a lil bit in a low LVL area? oo

1) Killing 10 mobs in 5 sec should not give 90% less loot compared to killing 1 mob in 5 sec2) people will have a benefit from choosing the volenteer downscaling and will use it maybe more often (if someone doesnt want then he/she just dont activate it :))

2-4 lvl downscaling can sometimes be already good and enough...but i guess making it more flexible (with a cap of 15 maybe? there should be some cap) and each lvl downscaling is forexample 10% mf.

But also in lvl 80 areas this should work, bcs also there sometimes the 1 shot problem is there.

For me, this is more of an invitation that low lvl areas will be overrun by veteran's who will take little consideration for newcomers (as it is atm already during dailies).In many areas you would have to be extremely set down, not only in LVL.I find Hesione.9412 idea much better to simply remove very low LVl areas completely from the Event-dailies.

well yes...ur r right, that could be a problem.

But on the other hand, I think its actually a feature in GW2 that everyone can play everywhere and also play together with lower lvl characters. Vetrans could help new player and interact with them. But as u said..it should definitly not ruin the gameplay for the new player.

Also...i think there is nothing wrong with maps filling up with people, if the events r balanced well, so that everyone can have fun. There could also be another solution for this..mine was just an example. It can also be without rewards,but...i honestly think..that maybe just 5% of the player gone actually volenteerly downgrade themselfs which will not help. And forcing everyone to be downgraded strongly is unfair as Naxos.2503 said.

Edit: Maybe the extra reward should not be in lvl 1-15 areas. These r usually pretty full, but the others r often empty..

[moony.5780]

So...now after checking a few things....I got this build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAwilZwQYZsQGJm2WXvfA-zRJYvhvEceA-e with lvl 5 weapon on healing power.Thats the first time things feel perfect. My autoattacks hit like 2-4% and stronger skills can hit like 20-40%.Now the biggest problem with playing low lvl events are the other noob player...a lvl 3 player can 1 hit all lvl 2 mobs before i even arrive :') and for 2 player the monster wave contain only 1 monster.... This really need to be changed

[maddoctor.2738]

This has been going on since release, although it became more pronounced with the addition of ascended and of course elite specs. But the single biggest offender is the mount engage skill, a player with a mount can 1-shot an entire group of mobs, while a fresh player doesn't get any chance to fire a single shot.

@"Hesione.9412" said:Or, as I have suggested in a thread long ago, stop the events in central Tyria being a daily for level 80 players.

This! Sending end-game players to lower level zones has benefits as it makes the zones feel alive, new players will get to see other people, but I think the potential drawbacks far outweigh the benefits. Especially on starter zones, "complete events in Plains of Ashford" is a terrible daily.

[moony.5780]

@maddoctor.2738 said:This has been going on since release, although it became more pronounced with the addition of ascended and of course elite specs. But the single biggest offender is the mount engage skill, a player with a mount can 1-shot an entire group of mobs, while a fresh player doesn't get any chance to fire a single shot.

When i played the game at release i remember like monster waves of 100-200 because there r 40 player around. It was a huge big massacre. And when it were only 5 player, the groups were still so huge that everyone could land a hit. But that time unlocking weapon skills was faster and lvling up slowlier. Maybe its because i played staff elementalist back then, but i never killed stuff in 2 or 3 hits. Today i saw a lvl 3 necro killing a lvl 4 Bandit in just 1 sec with axe nr 2....and it killed the only monster comming from this event....and there were 3 people around.....1 monster for 3 people? not even a ventran or any stronger monster...

@"Hesione.9412" said:Or, as I have suggested in a thread long ago, stop the events in central Tyria being a daily for level 80 players.

This! Sending end-game players to lower level zones has benefits as it makes the zones feel alive, new players will get to see other people, but I think the potential drawbacks far outweigh the benefits. Especially on starter zones, "complete events in Plains of Ashford" is a terrible daily.

I guess that would solve the problem of the lvl 80s killing all stuff, but not from the lvl 1-15s killing all stuff with 1 hit.

Well,..if everyone need to wait a few lvl to unlock all skills, sure the autoattack must be stronger....but 3 hits?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"moony.5780" said:When i played the game at release i remember like monster waves of 100-200 because there r 40 player around. It was a huge big massacre. And when it were only 5 player, the groups were still so huge that everyone could land a hit. But that time unlocking weapon skills was faster and lvling up slowlier. Maybe its because i played staff elementalist back then, but i never killed stuff in 2 or 3 hits. Today i saw a lvl 3 necro killing a lvl 4 Bandit in just 1 sec with axe nr 2....and it killed the only monster comming from this event....and there were 3 people around.....1 monster for 3 people? not even a ventran or any stronger monster...

You no longer unlock weapon skills, they are instantly available now, the moment you equip a weapon, back on release you had to use a weapon to "train" with it. Leveling speed in Core tyria (for new players) is the same as nothing really changed, experienced players will level up much faster, taking advantage of everything the game has to offer. Mob numbers in events didn't change either. That level 3 necro was probably a high level player that was downscaled, although Axe 2 does deal a lot of damage. If only one mob spawned and the event ended you must've been there only near the end, events tend to last some time and multiple mobs will spawn over their duration.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"moony.5780" said:Does anyone else have issues with the currect events in central tyria? And also in some other events with monster waves.The difficult part in the event are not the monster, but the other player that kill the mobs in a blink of an eye. So its hard to get even a lil loot.

That's actually how PVE maps tend to work at "best" anything that puts a fight and isnt a boss players would complain its to hard, just like they did on HoT release, and dont forget Tyria core maps were from a diferent time, where classes werent overbuffed with new spec gimmicks.

In pve maps everything melts to some autos, its casual pve, it is ment to work that way.

[moony.5780]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"moony.5780" said:When i played the game at release i remember like monster waves of 100-200 because there r 40 player around. It was a huge big massacre. And when it were only 5 player, the groups were still so huge that everyone could land a hit. But that time unlocking weapon skills was faster and lvling up slowlier. Maybe its because i played staff elementalist back then, but i never killed stuff in 2 or 3 hits. Today i saw a lvl 3 necro killing a lvl 4 Bandit in just 1 sec with axe nr 2....and it killed the only monster comming from this event....and there were 3 people around.....1 monster for 3 people? not even a ventran or any stronger monster...

You no longer unlock weapon skills, they are instantly available now, the moment you equip a weapon, back on release you had to use a weapon to "train" with it.You need to have a specific lvl to unlock a weapon skill.

@maddoctor.2738 said:That level 3 necro was probably a high level player that was downscaled, although Axe 2 does deal a lot of damage.i was downscaled to lvl 4..so this necro was really only lvl 3.

@maddoctor.2738 said:If only one mob spawned and the event ended you must've been there only near the end, events tend to last some time and multiple mobs will spawn over their duration.It depeneds on the event...some are really horribly scaled. Only 4 monster appear for 6 player...and only 4 waves of them during the whole event. So...1 player can kill all in 1 sec and 5 player have nothing

[moony.5780]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"moony.5780" said:Does anyone else have issues with the currect events in central tyria? And also in some other events with monster waves.The difficult part in the event are not the monster, but the other player that kill the mobs in a blink of an eye. So its hard to get even a lil loot.

That's actually how PVE maps tend to work at "best" anything that puts a fight and isnt a boss players would complain its to hard, just like they did on HoT release, and dont forget Tyria core maps were from a diferent time, where classes werent overbuffed with new spec gimmicks.

In pve maps everything melts to some autos, its casual pve, it is ment to work that way.

i remember how much i suffered at gw2 launch. It was never easy for me. Also Orr back then was a big loot fest even outside events....Im not saying that core tyria should not be casual...but just 4 mobs for 6 player per wave is too little. A player alone can have an aoe with attacking 5 and stealing everything...and that steals also the fun.Today i ran around with 2 random bloody gw2 beginner...they usually enjoyed the big events with big waves more...also they loved it when i lured 7 monster around me, so they attack it while i heal myself...

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Am I incorrect in recalling that buffing players in an event helps towards event inclusion?

I am not, I just tested it.

I took my staff Ele into an event (Troublemakers in Amnoon) and only used my heals. Confirmed no dmg dealt in log, and got Bronze inclusion.

This is a tact I use in any zerg or whatnot, is to always be buffing/healing players to help increase my inclusion. That you do not need to target and hit the enemy but instead buff players is helpful.

The cases where I miss an event is usually being unable to buff friendlies or target an enemy (usually in the final seconds of an event).

As a follow up, just did Choya Pinata, got Gold inclusion with a total of 3 regen healing and no DPS by spamming heals and protection.

[Khisanth.2948]

Never had any issues with this despite doing dailies on two accounts. I use reaper, berserker, tempest, renegade and soulbeast and just reaper and tempest prior to PoF's release.

@"Mungo Zen.9364" said:I took my staff Ele into an event (Troublemakers in Amnoon) and only used my heals. Confirmed no dmg dealt in log, and got Bronze inclusion.

Ressing people also works. That is how a friend got credit for the event in Dragon Stand where you help the skritt grow mushrooms. Anyone attempting to do it without the poison mastery will die from the poison. My friend didn't have it but fortunately neither did a bunch of other people! He just stood near the edge and ressed the people that went in without paying attention. ;)

This is a tact I use in any zerg or whatnot, is to always be buffing/healing players to help increase my inclusion. That you do not need to target and hit the enemy but instead buff players is helpful.

This is the tactic I used for the Halloween lab :)Don't just tag mobs, tag all the players too.

The cases where I miss an event is usually being unable to buff friendlies or target an enemy (usually in the final seconds of an event).

Some events are just picky about what they count. There are a few events where some mobs just don't count for some reason.For example this event, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escort_the_Vigil_to_the_Tower_of_Modius. If you ONLY tag the last group of veteran hyleks that spawn after the small wooden bridge it doesn't give event credit.