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Can we have back the second dodge on Power Mirage?


whoknocks.4935

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I was thinking of changing the trait Elusive Mind this way:

Dodging Removes ConditionsConditions Removed: 1

Endurance Threshold Increase: 50-1000 Condition damage

This way nobrainer condi builds cannot benefit from the extra dodge and become broken again, to be fair condi/hybrid mirage is still pretty retard talking of WvW.

Power Mirage will come back to life to be "viable" again, not broken, but VIABLE, because now it's seriously underperforming and the one and only who got hit heavily by the dodge nerf.

Opinions?

This is the best idea I came up with, I don't care of condi mirage mains opinions, since you are just the same as condi herald mains, noobs carried by a broken spec, nothing else.

Thanks.

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I don't agree, 2 dodges should be the minimum of dodge given for an elite spec based on dodge. No trait should give mirage another dodge, mirage already has 2 dodge in PVE and it should have also 2 in PvP. Thief daredevil, which is a dodge base elite has THREE dodges. Having only 1 dodges create a big disruptency in the gameplay of the game and it has been repeated 1000 times but they don't want to revert this change. If elusive mind could give one more dodge, everybody is going to take this trait and not the two other because it's too much essential to have 2 dodges to survive in PvP.

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@Woltarion.6829 said:I don't agree, 2 dodges should be the minimum of dodge given for an elite spec based on dodge. No trait should give mirage another dodge, mirage already has 2 dodge in PVE and it should have also 2 in PvP. Thief daredevil, which is a dodge base elite has THREE dodges. Having only 1 dodges create a big disruptency in the gameplay of the game and it has been repeated 1000 times but they don't want to revert this change. If elusive mind could give one more dodge, everybody is going to take this trait and not the two other because it's too much essential to have 2 dodges to survive in PvP.

Wrong, for condi IH is an essential trait, and pretty broken one.

If you give 2 dodges again leaving IH untouched, condi no brainer mirage return meta again.

Probably give mirage 2 dodges, but change IH to Endurance Threshold Decrease: 50.

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@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Woltarion.6829 said:I don't agree, 2 dodges should be the minimum of dodge given for an elite spec based on dodge. No trait should give mirage another dodge, mirage already has 2 dodge in PVE and it should have also 2 in PvP. Thief daredevil, which is a dodge base elite has THREE dodges. Having only 1 dodges create a big disruptency in the gameplay of the game and it has been repeated 1000 times but they don't want to revert this change. If elusive mind could give one more dodge, everybody is going to take this trait and not the two other because it's too much essential to have 2 dodges to survive in PvP.

Wrong, for condi IH is an essential trait, and pretty broken one.

If you give 2 dodges again leaving IH untouched, condi no brainer mirage return meta again.

Probably give mirage 2 dodges, but change IH to Endurance Threshold Decrease: 50.

it wont return, ih ambushes dont deal dmg anymore, staff ate 50% dmg nerf, scepter lost all its dmg due to bleed on crit trait.staff clone has more dps with auto-attacks rather then ambushes. Axe is the only good IH ambush but those clones are melee anyways.IH is better for power IH then for condi now.

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it wont return, ih ambushes dont deal dmg anymore, staff ate 50% dmg nerf, scepter lost all its dmg due to bleed on crit trait.staff clone has more dps with auto-attacks rather then ambushes. Axe is the only good IH ambush but those clones are melee anyways.IH is better for power IH then for condi now.

Essentially Mirage is a write off E-Spec all because people love to complain. Feels great getting an expansion that catored to everyone else and we ended up getting nothing out of it...ASIDE from using the Spec in PvE. Yippie.

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@Fueki.4753 said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

i dunno if this comment was serious or not but i dont see any other classes getting tradeoff for a revert on a MECHANICAL nerf.I think the whole history of balance patches for mesmer is a big enough tradeoff.

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@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

i dunno if this comment was serious or not but i dont see any other classes getting tradeoff for a revert on a MECHANICAL nerf.I think the whole history of balance patches for mesmer is a big enough tradeoff.

Current Arenanet needs their trade-offs though.Mirage's current trade-off is the loss of one dodge in PvP.If they were to undo that, Arenanet would have to introduce a different trade-off.And given their track record with these trade-offs, an idea like damage feedback from illusions wouldn't be out of Arenanet's domain.Their "balance" history, however, does not count as one.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

i dunno if this comment was serious or not but i dont see any other classes getting tradeoff for a revert on a MECHANICAL nerf.I think the whole history of balance patches for mesmer is a big enough tradeoff.

Current Arenanet needs their trade-offs though.Mirage's current trade-off is the loss of one dodge in PvP.If they were to undo that, Arenanet would have to introduce a different trade-off.And given their track record with these trade-offs, an idea like damage feedback from illusions wouldn't be out of Arenanet's domain.Their "balance" history, however, does not count as one.

Well, my idea of tradeoff is, Mirage loses his F4 Distortion too same as chrono and instead F4 will be: Gain Mirage Cloak for X seconds for each clone shattered, this may be with 40 seconds or more cooldown.Kinda works like a third dodge invuln, but not quite, can still be interrupted by certain CCs which are not evadable, you lose all synergies with distort, but gain mirage cloak synergies (ambushes etc.).It is very similar to thief tradeoff that Steal got reduced range but compensated with unblockable.

And considering holosmith, herald, renegade and to some extent other professions have near to zero if not zero tradeoffs, why not?

@Yasai.3549 said:Restore 2 Dodge.

New trade off?Max 2 Clones. Let's go.

This way, IH gets indirectly nerfed, and Mirages get 2 dodges back, and there still is a tradeoff.Win win win.

So basically you kill greatsword power combo with this change, I don't like much.

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@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

i dunno if this comment was serious or not but i dont see any other classes getting tradeoff for a revert on a MECHANICAL nerf.I think the whole history of balance patches for mesmer is a big enough tradeoff.

Current Arenanet needs their trade-offs though.Mirage's current trade-off is the loss of one dodge in PvP.If they were to undo that, Arenanet would have to introduce a different trade-off.And given their track record with these trade-offs, an idea like damage feedback from illusions wouldn't be out of Arenanet's domain.Their "balance" history, however, does not count as one.

Well, my idea of tradeoff is, Mirage lose his F4 Distortion too same as chrono and instead F4 will be: Gain Mirage Cloak for X seconds for each clone shattered, this may be with 40 seconds or more cooldown.Kinda works like a third dodge invuln, but not quite, can still be interrupted by certain CCs which are not evadable, you lose all synergies with distort, but gain mirage cloak synergies (ambushes etc.).It is very similar to thief tradeoff that Steal got reduced range but compensated with unblockable.

And considering holosmith, herald, renegade and to some extent other professions have near to zero if not zero tradeoffs, why not?

@Yasai.3549 said:Restore 2 Dodge.

New trade off?Max 2 Clones. Let's go.

This way, IH gets indirectly nerfed, and Mirages get 2 dodges back, and there still is a tradeoff.Win win win.

So basically you kill greatsword power combo with this change, I don't like much.

I think all the ideas has a good point, i like them all.

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@"Yoci.2481" said:The trade-off is the lack of directional mobility on dodge.

Which is made up with their GM Minor which grants them 66% Movespeed so they can actually cover similar or more ground than a regular dodge roll.So it's not that they don't have that "weakness" covered.And tbh, Mirage Cloak is actually stronger in certain situations, like getting Immob spammed, where they can still dodge on the spot, whereas other dodges are simply unable to function.

They need a sort of mechanical tradeoff, but 1 dodge is not it.Something on the same level as Chrono's Shatters would be nice tbh.

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Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s 1.66 0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

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@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s 1.66 0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

and to top it off speed of sand is a TRAIT.so not only it covers less ground but also occupies a trait slot that other classes get some of their OP shit.holo gets lasers edge for example in that slot.

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@Fueki.4753 said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

What kind of question is this lol?Let myself and people who actually have played the Mesmer for a long time fill you in on something. Mesmers should've NEVER had a dodge removed from them for PvP/WvW for the Mirage Spec. They crippled the entire spec doing that while everyone else gets to retain two dodges? You really think that's a fair trade off? Let's be realistic... because if you think that's fair then by all means, REMOVE two dodges from Thiefs Daredevil and then see the forums spike with uproars.

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s
1.66
0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

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@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s
1.66
0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

What? It's 3/4s as the base dodge is.

March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for >ambush skills.

It used to be 1s. Because of its duration extension and easily-accessed vigor, using Dodge food to reach the endurance-refund cap, the mirage had higher evasion uptime than Acrobatics thief in WvW.MC also lets you dodge even while CC'ed, without EM. That's stupidly OP with consecutive evasion opportunities because it denies CC from being useful. Especially in the current iteration of the game where really, the only way to kill people is using specialized burst skills with the CC itself dealing .01 damage across most skills on most professions. Being able to dodge during CC invalidates any use of CC on the mirage at all.

They should just give up the whole Mirage Cloak mechanic and try something different. It's impossible to balance. No cast animations is bad design which requires people to look at status bars for punishing, and allows the same damage-during-defense mechanics like immunes which the community has been fighting hard against since this game's launch. The idea stands against literally everything GW2 was built on, and keeping it in check forces the mesmer to be weak.

There are just better options out there which don't hinge on removing visual clarity which are also much easier to balance and not implicitly weaker.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s
1.66
0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

What? It's 3/4s as the base dodge is.

March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for >ambush skills.

It used to be 1s. Because of its duration extension and easily-accessed vigor, using Dodge food to reach the endurance-refund cap, the mirage had higher evasion uptime than Acrobatics thief in WvW.MC also lets you dodge even while CC'ed, without EM. That's stupidly OP with consecutive evasion opportunities because it denies CC from being useful. Especially in the current iteration of the game where really, the only way to kill people is using specialized burst skills with the CC itself dealing .01 damage across most skills on most professions. Being able to dodge during CC invalidates any use of CC on the mirage at all.

They should just give up the whole Mirage Cloak mechanic and try something different. It's impossible to balance. No cast animations is bad design which requires people to look at status bars for punishing, and allows the same damage-during-defense mechanics like immunes which the community has been fighting hard against since this game's launch. The idea stands against literally everything GW2 was built on, and keeping it in check forces the mesmer to be weak.

There are just better options out there which don't hinge on removing visual clarity which are also much easier to balance and not implicitly weaker.

Technically it doesnt ever let you dodge. It replaces dodge. Dodge becomes gaining basically a boon called MC that gives you evade for 3/4 sec (yes was 1 sec and gave super speed originally). Because you dont dodge you can still use non-instant cast skills, however, EVERYONE can use instant cast at any time just like a mirage regardless of if its dodge, Dash, Mirage Cloak. So the idea that this cannot be done with other classes is false. Every class can cast instant cast skills during a dodge (yes mid dodge).

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s
1.66
0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

What? It's 3/4s as the base dodge is.

March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for >ambush skills.

It used to be 1s. Because of its duration extension and easily-accessed vigor, using Dodge food to reach the endurance-refund cap, the mirage had higher evasion uptime than Acrobatics thief in WvW.MC also lets you dodge even while CC'ed, without EM. That's stupidly OP with consecutive evasion opportunities because it denies CC from being useful. Especially in the current iteration of the game where really, the only way to kill people is using specialized burst skills with the CC itself dealing .01 damage across most skills on most professions. Being able to dodge during CC invalidates any use of CC on the mirage at all.

They should just give up the whole Mirage Cloak mechanic and try something different. It's impossible to balance. No cast animations is bad design which requires people to look at status bars for punishing, and allows the same damage-during-defense mechanics like immunes which the community has been fighting hard against since this game's launch. The idea stands against literally everything GW2 was built on, and keeping it in check forces the mesmer to be weak.

There are just better options out there which don't hinge on removing visual clarity which are also much easier to balance and not implicitly weaker.

Technically it doesnt ever let you dodge. It replaces dodge. Dodge becomes gaining basically a boon called MC that gives you evade for 3/4 sec (yes was 1 sec and gave super speed originally). Because you dont dodge you can still use non-instant cast skills, however, EVERYONE can use instant cast at any time just like a mirage regardless of if its dodge, Dash, Mirage Cloak. So the idea that this cannot be done with other classes is false. Every class can cast instant cast skills during a dodge (yes mid dodge).

And absolutely nowhere did I mention instant-cast skills. These are universally utilities with longer cooldowns and are mostly run as cleanses and stunbreaks on every other profession. So what exactly are you saying?It lets the mirage cast normally while evading, or really, lets the mirage evade while casting without interruption. That removes visual clarity when fighting against an opponent without looking deeply at their status bar by removing the visual cues for both when they can interrupt, or when they can apply CC to punish in advance.

There's an old video before GW2 launched with either CJ or MO about combat visibility, and how they wanted to make this game be more about what you see on-screen and what people are doing rather than traditional MMO's like WoW where you stare at status bars. Mirage goes directly against this mantra and it's a slap in the face to why a lot of people joined the game in the first place.

If I wanted to play a game based on status effects, I'd play WoW.

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Just give them back their dodge. I don't understand why there has to be some sort of compromise. You've got classes and builds running around hitting people for 10k with one button press, or having 3-4 blinks on less than 15 second cooldowns each. What's the problem? A two dodge mirage is going to be the least of anyone's problem.

It honestly seems absurd.

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