Can we have back the second dodge on Power Mirage?

[Atille.5047]

Imagine making a trait that literally quadruples ambush attacks, and then nerfing everything but that trait until it becomes balanced on the virtue of original attacks being this much weaker.

IH should've been purely visual, or reworked entirely. Other nerfs that resulted out of it's obvious dominance should be reverted. PvE mirage would also not mind having something that makes them a viable condi spec not just on a handful of raids purely because torment/confusion are weirdly situational conditions.

I'd want something akin to PBS in spirit, maybe. Something like, "Generating clones above limit triggers a special sandy attack around you that applies this and that, consuming clones in the process". Essentially filling same purpose of being a pressure source, but instead of relegating it to literal multiplication of ambushes it becomes kind of a new way to trigger a new shatter, also with enough of a tell that it's coming PvP wise.

As far as Elusive Mind goes, I'd love for it to get an autouse of Jaunt (minus most damage) in the direction you're "dodging" - that'll open up ditching Deceptive Evasion in favor of Self-Deception as your main clone-gen and would make perfect sense with trait's theme of, like, being elusive. The current "cleanse tbh" thing barely feels like enough.

I can't even remember what's the third grandmaster for Mirage is, and that's telling in itself about how useful or memorable it is.

[Yasai.3549]

@hanabal lecter.2495 said:Imagine making a spec that relies around evading to use most of your skills, but then go you know what we dont want you to use them so lets give you less evades.

It just makes no sense.

Mirage can't be balanced the same way other classes with dodge benefits are balanced.

Their dodge is unique and special, with its own merits and demerits.Last thing they should have ever touched was the dodge, and rather balance things which the dodge was empowering.

Like hey, maybe if they put a 3s ICD on IH, it would have toned down the IH Mirage Condi spam abit yu know, but nah, remove 1 dodge.

[Dadnir.5038]

Mirage got it's second dodge removed because he can generate shards that give him dodge frame.Just remove the shard thing and bring back the 2nd dodge.

[Curunen.8729]

The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

F4 should be Desert Distortion only - ie gain 1s mirage cloak (no invuln, only evade), and all clones become mirrors. Additionally, breaking mirrors from any source should give 1s mirage cloak (maybe this could be the replacement trait - buffing mirrors or something).

Then give the second dodge back.

In terms of visual effects of MC - the bright white flash could be reduced in intesity (it's excessively bright in my opinion). Aside from that, I belive it's kind of the point of the spec to be difficult to identify what is going on in terms of animations.

But here, they should instead reduce it's ability to deal massive burst by reducing F1 damage potential on Mirage only, as part of shatter modifications. Maybe even the crude -50% nerf. And buff direct damage of player ambush only. Force it to be a sustained damage spec, direct or condi, and force it to play with its unique mechanic of ambushes.

That way no ability to one-shot, no surprises - but on the flipside, more difficult to see what they are doing/what is going on - more emphasis on eg detargeting and obscuring the mirage's actions.

I strongly believe core mesmer should be the big "100-0" F1 wombo combo old school shatter playstyle. Mirage should not be the same, neither power nor condi - all damage application of mirage should be more gradual than core, but the benefit being less downtime (ie not massive burst and gtfo) and more difficult to pin down.

[Yasai.3549]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Mirage got it's second dodge removed because he can generate shards that give him dodge frame.Just remove the shard thing and bring back the 2nd dodge.

That's like a more cumbersome way to get dodges over something like Riposting Shadows or Agility Signet or one of the myriad of ways for Thief to get endurance.

So should Endurance gain just be removed in general?

I mean for the case of Riposting Shadows, removing it to reduce skill bloat could allow it to bear a lower cost.

Endurance gain removal from DD would definitely hurt it's playstyle no?Why would yu wish this onto another Espec then?

[Zoser.7245]

@Curunen.8729 said:The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

F4 should be Desert Distortion only - ie gain 1s mirage cloak (no invuln, only evade), and all clones become mirrors. Additionally, breaking mirrors from any source should give 1s mirage cloak (maybe this could be the replacement trait - buffing mirrors or something).

I can't watch mirrors as a realiable source for replace distortion. Clones, unless your at melee range, can be elsewhere in undesirable places to use those mirrors. So F4 will be a waste almost always with only 1s of mirage cloak. They also often not survive enough to profit them for increase of F4 duration. For change F4 to something worse better don't touch it with the excuse of give back the second dodge. We don't need extra nerfs with the trade off excuse.

One of the worst things that have happened to mesmers is, in fact, the rework of traits and skills only with only PvP in mind and a narrow vision of the matter. Each time that they do it we lose diversity and effectiveness in other game modes. Even WvW suffered it. That also happen if you only take into the account a single game mode, only PvE, for example. We actually have several traits that are only useful or relevant in a single game mode and práctically useless in others. The best is first fix the purpose of the trait/skill and once you know it find a way to make it useful in every game mode, even if those traits and skills must have some extra effects depending of the game mode without changing its design goal..

Can't even imagine what more they'd ruin the next time they make some rework on Mesmers/Mirage. But with the next expansion i can visualice the next hits to us. I actually almost not use my Mirage but i'll suffer them too. I can only hope that, with a bit of luck, they'll at least have a clever vision of how improve several things instead of ruin them like they often do with mesmers. Wel, time will show it.

[Yasai.3549]

@Curunen.8729 said:The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

I think they should keep other Shatters and modify Distortion instead.Would be cool if Mirage's Distortion gave base amount of Invul but allow them to Mirage Cloak upon attacked, stacking up to 3 times based on how many clones Shattered.

So instead of having 1 - 4s Invul, they will instead get 1s Invul and 3 instances of auto Mirage Cloak which lasts for about 5sThis gives them abit of counter pressure when being attacked after they used Distortion.

Ofc, IH has to be rebalanced if this were to happen.

[Curunen.8729]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

F4 should be Desert Distortion only - ie gain 1s mirage cloak (no invuln, only evade), and all clones become mirrors. Additionally, breaking mirrors from any source should give 1s mirage cloak (maybe this could be the replacement trait - buffing mirrors or something).

I can't watch mirrors as a realiable source for replace distortion. Clones, unless your at melee range, can be elsewhere in undesirable places to use those mirrors. So F4 will be a waste almost always with only 1s of mirage cloak. They also often not survive enough to profit them for increase of F4 duration. For change F4 to something worse better don't touch it with the excuse of give back the second dodge. We don't need extra nerfs with the trade off excuse.

One of the worst things that have happened to mesmers is, in fact, the rework of traits and skills only with only PvP in mind and a narrow vision of the matter. Each time that they do it we lose diversity and effectiveness in other game modes. Even WvW suffered it. That also happen if you only take into the account a single game mode, only PvE, for example. We actually have several traits that are only useful or relevant in a single game mode and práctically useless in others. The best is first fix the purpose of the trait/skill and once you know it find a way to make it useful in every game mode, even if those traits and skills must have some extra effects depending of the game mode without changing its design goal..

Can't even imagine what more they'd ruin the next time they make some rework on Mesmers/Mirage. But with the next expansion i can visualice the next hits to us. I actually almost not use my Mirage but i'll suffer them too. I can only hope that, with a bit of luck, they'll at least have a clever vision of how improve several things instead of ruin them like they often do with mesmers. Wel, time will show it.

I agree that mirrors aren't exactly an ideal mechanic - especially reliance on clone positions for mirror spawns on F4 which can be a mess compared with utility mirror generators, but the main motivation is that having mirage cloak as before with 2 dodges, in addition to normal Distortion was excessive in terms of survivability - and instead of nerfing the unique mechanic they should do similar to what they did to Chrono and make mirage F4 different (perhaps weaker) than core.

The idea being that MC is strong enough, and dodge access is reliable enough with 2 dodges, that F4 becomes more of a "luxury" that needs some additional work to get the benefit from - as mirage cloak on the dodge button is virtually the same in practice as hitting F4 aside from obvious difference of evade and invuln, it is reasonable to encourage mirage in the way it is unique, while further differentiating from core.

There are other changes I'd like to see to support this - one of which is restoring Jaunt to 20s charge cooldown (they can leave it at 2 charges if necessary).Also would be making IH grandmaster minor, offloading most condi application and any direct damage to player ambush, and reworking F1-F3 to function as Riddle of Sand does for F2 (shatters having weaker upfront effect, but each shatter activating a buff to enhance the subsequent ambush attack, for direct, condi and cc respectively).

If losing normal Distortion is that bad, they could even go back to increasing dodge to 1s duration - though this may be swinging too much the other way again. Edit - see below for addition to this reply, sorry didn't think of it at the time of writing.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

I think they should keep other Shatters and modify Distortion instead.Would be cool if Mirage's Distortion gave base amount of Invul but allow them to Mirage Cloak upon attacked, stacking up to 3 times based on how many clones Shattered.

So instead of having 1 - 4s Invul, they will instead get 1s Invul and 3 instances of auto Mirage Cloak which lasts for about 5sThis gives them abit of counter pressure when being attacked after they used Distortion.

Ofc, IH has to be rebalanced if this were to happen.

For F1-3 I was thinking Riddle of Sand style. Eg:

• F1 minus 50% direct damage. Gain a buff that the next ambush attack deals +100% damage
• F2 direct application changed to bleeding. Riddle of Sand baseline (next ambush deals 2 stacks confusion)
• F3 is a bit weird. Could stay as it is tbh but gain a buff that the next ambush does "something"... (many thoughts about changing cc application, but not sure which way to go at the moment).

Yep, IH and clone ambushes are crucial to look at - I still am of the same opinion that it should be minor and most clone ambush effects should be shifted to the player, with them being visual red herrings. And Sword/Trident clones shouldn't cc on ambush.

Yeah perhaps as with Chrono F4, Mirage F4 could have 1s initial invuln - though I'm leaning more towards just make everything Mirage Cloak on mirage.

Maybe F4 could be a flipover skill to make this all work out. Eg:First press - all clones turn into mirage mirrors (you gain 1s mirage cloak)Second press (flipover skill) - instantly shatter all mirage mirrors to gain x seconds mirage cloak (1s per mirror)

Thereby having the option to either:

• leave them on the ground until needed
• "consume" them to get short duration chain evasion (at the cost of only one ambush activation)

Could be the best of both worlds.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Mirage got it's second dodge removed because he can generate shards that give him dodge frame.Just remove the shard thing and bring back the 2nd dodge.

That's like a more cumbersome way to get dodges over something like Riposting Shadows or Agility Signet or one of the myriad of ways for Thief to get endurance.

Indeed, but in practice it mean that you technically have more dodges.

So should Endurance gain just be removed in general?

I mean for the case of Riposting Shadows, removing it to reduce skill bloat could allow it to bear a lower cost.

Doesn't make sense, you're comparing apple and orange here. The shard/mirror directly give the evade frame when used, they don't provide endurance. But most of all, they increase significantly the number of evade frames the mirage have over core mesmer, which create an effect called "powercreep". On the other hand, riposting shadow being a core ability, it is hard to qualify any of it's effects as "powercreep".

Endurance gain removal from DD would definitely hurt it's playstyle no?

Here, you are not wrong. DD indeed is powercrept on dodge, though it does have a tradeoff in some limitations related to it's mobility now. (I won't argue whether it's a proper tradeoff or not. Afterall, this is the mesmer subforum not the thief's subforum.)

Why would yu wish this onto another Espec then?

Why would I wish ANet to remove clumsy bundles that are a pitiful excuse for the loss of 50 point of endurance (the second dodge)? I think the way I changed your question is enough of an answer in itself, right?

NB.: The same way I'm all for revenant "healing orbs" and scourge's "magical sand" being replaced by anything else that's not as clumsy to use. Beware, this is my own opinion, you can totally be in love with such mechanisms if it's your taste, but, personally, I don't. I'd rather have a simple effect that don't require balance than an unnecessarily complex effect that require balance and end up crippling core mechanisms for the sake of keeping them in game.

[Yasai.3549]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

Why would I wish ANet to remove clumsy bundles that are a pitiful excuse for the loss of 50 point of endurance (the second dodge)? I think the way I changed your question is enough of an answer in itself, right?

NB.: The same way I'm all for revenant "healing orbs" and scourge's "magical sand" being replaced by anything else that's not as clumsy to use. Beware, this is my own opinion, you can totally be in love with such mechanisms if it's your taste, but, personally, I don't. I'd rather have a simple effect that don't require balance than an unnecessarily complex effect that require balance and end up crippling core mechanisms for the sake of keeping them in game.

From yur initial comment what can be inferred is that yu meant :"2nd dodge was removed because of Mirrors giving them access to MC, therefore if Mirrors were removed, they deserve their 2nd dodge back"

That's just so wrong.

Just as much as Mirage should have their second dodge back, as a Espec relying on their Mirage Cloak for gameplay, they still need that access to Mirage Cloak, no matter how cumbersome they may be.

And this is not to say that Mirage builds don't already use them effectively : Staff Condi Mirages do use Mirrors pretty effectively.Yu also mentioned simply removing them so that they can have their 2nd Dodge back, which makes it seem that yur implying that all they need is their 2nd dodge back.

Sure if Mirrors were REPLACED with another way to easily attain more Mirage Cloaks, it would be much better overall for Mirage. (But only if IH is rebalanced at the same time)

If yu meant something else entirely, then please clarify, because it just seems like yu want Mirage to have 2nd Dodge back but lose all other avenues of gaining MC, so that their ONLY way of attaining MC is dodging.

[Yoci.2481]

Removing distortion from F4 but getting back the second dodge sounds like an acceptable trade to me, but not in a vacuum. Mesmer in general has problems that need to be addressed.

[Heika.5403]

@Yoci.2481 said:Removing distortion from F4 but getting back the second dodge sounds like an acceptable trade to me, but not in a vacuum. Mesmer in general has problems that need to be addressed.

It won't be a vacuum package, but a pile of useless crap. We lost the effective CC builds, also no phantasms build today, no glamour builds or any diversity that works. When do you think they will give us all that back? I see them more changing what it works well just by add something new than rework all the garbage that they added in recent years. They said that Mirage Cloak was a design mistake, right? Be ready to watch that changed to something else that make people stop playing the Mirage specialization anymore. It could end being like Chronomancer, a raid thing but with condition damage build.

[Moradorin.6217]

Mirage Mirrors are a shitty mechanic. Forcing people to pickup things everyone can see (super predictable when its getting picked up) makes them basically a joke. THe opponent can stop u from reaching them or just wait for you to be done picking them up before they burst. Either way, the Mirage is at a disadvantage trying to get more evade frames. Stop trying to say Mesmer doesn't need 2nd dodge cause it has a shitty mirror no body (should) want.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Moradorin.6217" said:Mirage Mirrors are a kitten mechanic. Forcing people to pickup things everyone can see (super predictable when its getting picked up) makes them basically a joke. THe opponent can stop u from reaching them or just wait for you to be done picking them up before they burst. Either way, the Mirage is at a disadvantage trying to get more evade frames. Stop trying to say Mesmer doesn't need 2nd dodge cause it has a kitten mirror no body (should) want.

following their " mirror " logic spb should lose dodge since it has fullcounter.

[Sobx.1758]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

and to top it off speed of sand is a TRAIT.so not only it covers less ground but also occupies a trait slot that other classes get some of their OP kitten.holo gets lasers edge for example in that slot.

It's a TRAIT, but it's a MINOR one, so it's not like you need to pick it IN PLACE OF SOMETHING ELSE and instead it's just ALWAYS THERE when you pick the spec and it's not different from many other minor traits like this which are meant to actually refine the PLAYSTYLE of especs and their mechanics. Not sure why you're trying to pretend it being "a [minor] trait" is something that actually matters here.Not sure how "can't dodge jump" is such a huge deal in most cases. And it can be used while immobilized. And it doesn't break your actions. \

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

And pretty sure this is wrong. Maybe you're confused, because before it got nerfed, it actually had longer evade than the regular dodge and now that it's the same, you somehow think it's lower?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

and to top it off speed of sand is a TRAIT.so not only it covers less ground but also occupies a trait slot that other classes get some of their OP kitten.holo gets lasers edge for example in that slot.

It's a TRAIT, but it's a MINOR one, so it's not like you need to pick it IN PLACE OF SOMETHING ELSE and instead it's just ALWAYS THERE when you pick the spec and it's not different from many other minor traits like this which are meant to actually refine the PLAYSTYLE of especs and their mechanics. Not sure why you're trying to pretend it being "a [minor] trait" is something that actually matters here.Not sure how "can't dodge jump" is such a huge deal in most cases. And it can be used while immobilized. And it doesn't break your actions. \

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

And pretty sure this is wrong. Maybe you're confused, because before it got nerfed, it actually had longer evade than the regular dodge and now that it's the same, you somehow think it's lower?

some minor traits boost damage by 10%, some by 15%, some by more, some remove boons or whatever.not mirage. Mirage cloak removes your movement from dodge and gives it back as a trait. its like having spb lose access to F1 skill and implement another minor trait that gives it back, its jut a ruse to make mesmer have 1 less trait then other classes nothing else.Its not about being a huge deal or not. what you get from elite should be fucking good. OFC mirage cloak dodging when stuned,casting,immob is good but its supposed to be good. You dont see me complaining that SPB gets OP full-counter and loses nothing in return. He takes entire traitline to make it work and its supposed to be fucking good. Gimping the base mechanic is no way to balance things.

BTW I looked what some of the other elites get in its slot.DRD gets 0,5 dodge every time they land steal ( drd steal has what, 16s cd ? ) following your logic we should remove this trait from the game, make swipe BLOCKABLE and introduce MINOR trait that makes steal unblockable ItS meant to actually refine the PLAYSTYLE of especs and their mechanics after allsame logic, but drd loses a trait, awesome idea.Lets do another one! remove daze from full counter, remove attackers insight from the game and make another trait that makes full-counter daze.who gives a shit right? those are just MINOR traits RIGHT?cough coughextra 0,5 dodge every 16s -> drdextra 450 offensive stats -> spbextra boon duration and dmg per boon -> heraldextra chill duration and 10% dmg to chilled targets -> reaperbut hey those are just MINOR traits so they are not strong right

[Lonami.2987]

@Fueki.4753 said:If it gets its dodge back in PvP, what's going to be the new trade off?The Mesmers receive damage each time one of their illusions is killed?

I think this tradeoff philosophy is a mistake, and should have never happened. I mean, who cares if the core professions are useless, they're still there as a foundation for elite specializations, which should be the only ones to matter.

Still, if I were to give mirages a tradeoff, it would be making illusions weaker. The special mechanic is not just Mirage Cloak replacing Dodge Rolling, but Ambush skills being unlocked upon using Mirage Cloak. Ambush skills require illusions to be useful, so just make illusions weaker, so ambush skills become harder to use.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Mirage got it's second dodge removed because he can generate shards that give him dodge frame.Just remove the shard thing and bring back the 2nd dodge.

True, mirage mirrors are kinda pointless imo, too situational to be useful. I wouldn't mind if they were removed.

Alternatively, just remove/rework the Desert Distortion trait instead. For example, replace it with a new trait that gives endurance upon gaining distortion.

[Sobx.1758]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

and to top it off speed of sand is a TRAIT.so not only it covers less ground but also occupies a trait slot that other classes get some of their OP kitten.holo gets lasers edge for example in that slot.

It's a TRAIT, but it's a MINOR one, so it's not like you need to pick it IN PLACE OF SOMETHING ELSE and instead it's just ALWAYS THERE when you pick the spec and it's not different from many other minor traits like this which are meant to actually refine the PLAYSTYLE of especs and their mechanics. Not sure why you're trying to pretend it being "a [minor] trait" is something that actually matters here.Not sure how "can't dodge jump" is such a huge deal in most cases. And it can be used while immobilized. And it doesn't break your actions. \

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s

1.66

0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

All of that combines into a pretty reasonable trade-off.

edit: And you can't dodge jump.

Keeping it 100%

on top of tht the actual dodge itself is lower then a normal dodge just the visual effects dont line up so people think its longer then it actually is

And pretty sure this is wrong. Maybe you're confused, because before it got nerfed, it actually had longer evade than the regular dodge and now that it's the same, you somehow think it's lower?

some minor traits boost damage by 10%, some by 15%, some by more, some remove boons or whatever.

Some do, some don't, some add, some take, it's irreleavnt. They still mostly do what I said they do and trying to pretend that periodical additional speed of espec is somehow worse, because it takes minor trait is just misrepresenting the facts to pretend you're in a worse position than you really are.

Mirage cloak removes your movement from dodge and gives it back as a trait.

Yeah, that's TOTALLY what it does, it's not like it replaces a mecahnic with another one and then adds another on top of it actively feeding off its usage. Instead it really "just removes movement from dodge to add it later as a trait". :lol:

Its not about being a huge deal or not.

Yes, it is, because minor traits in a lot of cases just put a frame on especs playstyle and its related mechanics. This is nothing out of ordinary or negative opposed to how you've tried to present it.

what you get from elite should be kitten good.

Said who? You and your bias? Seeing how optimally especs aren't even supposed to be direct upgrades over the core, the above claim is just false. It's perfectly fine to "give some take some" and it is the case here whether you like it or not.

OFC mirage cloak dodging when stuned,casting,immob is good but its supposed to be good.

See, this is what you do here. We gain something? GREAT! We lose a bit in return? WHAT?! THIS IS NOT WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE!Again: since when?

You dont see me complaining that SPB gets OP full-counter and loses nothing in return. He takes entire traitline to make it work and its supposed to be kitten good. Gimping the base mechanic is no way to balance things.

Well, this is just false. :D

BTW I looked what some of the other elites get in its slot.DRD gets 0,5 dodge every time they land steal ( drd steal has what, 16s cd ? ) following your logic we should remove this trait from the game, make swipe BLOCKABLE and introduce MINOR trait that makes steal unblockable ItS meant to actually refine the PLAYSTYLE of especs and their mechanics after all

Buddy, not only nothing about what you said here ""follows my logic"" (because how exactly does it follow it? Are you sure you've understand what I wrote? Because it seems you didn't), but you also clearly keep talking about skills and traits you don't understand or know (and you've only tried bringing up 2 isolated elements of 2 classes for now) . If all I'm here for is to correct what you don't know about the game basic skill facts then it's a waste of time. Play other classes and then start pretending you know what you're talking about, oof.

Actually not only that, but also on the way here you've apparently lost some context of what you or I wrote before and as much as previously you've just tried to pretend "added speed doesn't count because it's a minor trait!", now you somehow try to claim that any other class' minor trait that adds something is unfair? This victim mentality is getting hilarious.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Sobx.1758I will explain it once again so even you can understand it.Mesmers elite takes something away from mesmer, and then gives it back as a trait, to my knowledge, there is no other class that does this shit.All it does is leaves a dead trait. I dont get why is this so hard to grasp for you.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Sobx.1758I will explain it once again so even you can understand it.Mesmers elite takes something away from mesmer, and then gives it back as a trait, to my knowledge, there is no other class that does this kitten.All it does is leaves a dead trait. I dont get why is this so hard to grasp for you.

I'd rather have that as to be able to regain core functionality AND the elite spec at a small cost than mechanics which actively work against core game or weapon skill ones. A few immediately come to mind.

• Transfusion actively works against Reaper, a melee AoE spec meant to scale into enemy numbers, so it brings downs to you to immediately die. Dead Trait. Actually, a big part of BM is and historically was transfusion. Most of BM as a whole trait line is not useful or counter-productive on reaper.
• Almost all of the warrior traits based on adrenaline level are self-nerfed with Berserker and spellbreaker counted as only one bar such as Cleansing Ire, one of the premier condition clear abilities it has access to.
• Bounding Dodge AND Impaling Lotus are incompatible with OH dagger on thief as it self-reveals when cast after using CnD. Dash often actively works against getting into 130 range to land CnD/Backstab, so all three are dead traits for D/D where it's usually better to just not take any of the GM traits at all.

I'm sure there are other obvious ones, and there are tons of anti-synergy traits found all over the other classes that aren't as egregious.It's not a mirage-only problem.

[Sobx.1758]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Sobx.1758"I will explain it once again so even you can understand it.Mesmers elite takes something away from mesmer, and then gives it back as a trait, to my knowledge, there is no other class that does this kitten.

Yeah, that's TOTALLY what it does, it's not like it replaces a mecahnic with another one and then adds another on top of it actively feeding off its usage. Instead it really "just removes movement from dodge to add it later as a trait". :lol:(yup, had to copy-paste what I already wrote just so "even you can understand it")

All it does is leaves a dead trait. I dont get why is this so hard to grasp for you.

...probably because that's oversymplification that ignores the facts just because you want to pretend this is a dead trait instead of a mechanic swap that comes with its own "rewards". I already wrote that above, not sure why it's so hard to grasp for you.

[Raven.8531]

Since ANET probably will not restore the second dodge, how about making each mirage dodge cost 25 endurance instead of 50. That way you can still have one dodge on mirage but it cuts the time between dodges.

[Tseison.4659]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Raven.8531 said:Since ANET probably will not restore the second dodge, how about making each mirage dodge cost 25 endurance instead of 50. That way you can still have one dodge on mirage but it cuts the time between dodges.

Or how about for once, Anet ackgnowledges they made a mistake, returns the 2 dodges, and apologizes to thousands of players they screwed over and constantly bullied over the years? We shouldn't be beaten over the head with a metal bat, then be greatful when they decide to beat us with a wooden one.

To add to this as well; Anet had no VALID right to remove Mirages dodge while EVERY.OTHER.PROFESSION, gets to keep all two. ADDITIONALLY, there should be no reason Mirage loses a dodge and Daredevil gets to keep their THREE dodges intaked! So when people say “oh well there has to be a trade-off.” Here’s a trade off, if they're gonna remove Mirages 1 dodge, then I suggest you do the same for Daredevil and heck, why not do it for everyone else. Won’t happen but everyone should understand the point I’m making.

So when anyone in the GW2 community or say their “part” of the Mesmer community and are okay with the removal of Mirage dodge for the sake of “balance”, are no better than Anet. #Facts

[Yoci.2481]

GS 3 teleport. :)

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

I honestly like one dodge mirage and think it fits as a good example of what other classes should be balanced around. As a class it requires timing, mechanics, and game sense in order to have value. This is as opposed to many builds that play for you and have value just by just existing or spamming skills off cooldown. I think Mirage would be in a good place if those builds were taken care of.