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Hammer on Guardian Poll - should it be left alone?


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@Yggranya.5201 said:Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if the CC actually made sense? Like, why would i EVER want to launch/push an enemy away from my limited melee reach?You could use it to try and get the enemy off a point in PvP.Or, if you are close to an edge, you could push and enemy away from it to have more room to move.Or you could push enemy players off cliffs in WvW.

It has multiple reasonable applications.But one second cast time is too long.

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Last time I used Guardian's hammer was like 4-5 years ago. Warrior's hammer around 3 years ago. Rev's hammer like 1.5-2 years ago. That's related to all game modes. Sometimes I use Scrapper's hammer, but only in PvE because I don't play Engineer in PvP. Outside bruiser Scrapper builds I would say that the hammer is a weapon that doesn't exist in GW2, and have been this way for a while.

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@Brokensunday.4098 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:Guardian? How about warrior hammer? By the time you've used all CC abilities on a group of enemies, any other melee weapon would have killed them and the next group, maybe even more. Same for maces. In PvE, they have no purpose except to break the defiance bar. Good? I guess, but i would rather use them exclusively. Besides, warrior has more than enough CC utility. Not like the bar is high enough to require more than that since they are designed for groups, and the cooldown is so long on the bar that you'll have the skills ready again before it can be broken again.

You havent played fractal 100 cm I see.

Yes, i have not, and never will. Still, if it's good in one thing, that doesn't mean it's any better in the other, now does it?

Guardian has the second highest number of weapons after Warrior. It can afford to have one or two that have specialised uses rather than competing for the role of top glass cannon DPS.

Staff is utility, shileld is utility, focus is combo damage and utility, mace is utility mostly, hammer is supposed to be damage and utily but is lacking the damage excluding the skill 2.Guarian need a change on gammer because even as an “utility” weappon as is right now is mostly useless outside of some super rare ocassions.

Hammer is tanking and crowd control. With Writ of Persistence, you've got pretty much permanent protection and healing, which makes it very useful for situations when running sword, greatsword, or axe will mean you don't have the durability to remain in melee with whatever it is you're fighting.

In reality you will not tank nor heal much with hammer even runnin kitten the chain is supper slow to practically use it, is even a dps loss just auto attaking with it, as a cc weappon banish is too predictible and the knockback weakens your dps more, ring of warding is decent but it lack damage inside the ring to force people of running out of it or making them waste their stab.On pve i can see how i can work as a tanking weappon but again guardian has sooo much more ways to do that and even better ways of doing it rendering the weappon useless, and on pvp is just not competitive you wont hit with autos and hammer 2 are supper predictibles. Extreme risk medium reward is the weappon as right now.

You've got a symbol up pretty much permanently. That symbol provides permanent protection and constant healing. It might not look like much, but it's another 3000+ healing in the thirty second recharge of most guardian heals. That's significant, especially with protection reducing the damage incoming.

And in the meantime, you're damaging everything near you. Lots of melee adds? No problem, the permanent symbol will clear them out. And if you can fit in Zeal, then all the traits that trigger based off symbols will be active permanently as long as you're able to keep standing there and swinging away (and with the damage mitigation and healing, you probably can). That's not something that the other weapons can do.

Meanwhile, you're not relying on utility skills for your base damage mitigation, so you can freely fill them with whatever fits best for the instance. Sure, it's not the only source of protection Guardian has - but keeping protection up permanently by other means takes a fair amount of investment.

I'm speaking from experience here. I do a lot of instances solo, often in berserker gear, and I've had quite a few cases where switching to hammer meant smooth sailing when doing the same content with the "preferred" weapons made it longer and more hectic because I had to focus more on the "don't stop not dying" part.

Again, this is not to say that it couldn't stand a few usability improvements, like speeding up the CC skills (including making Ring of Warding something you can cast while moving, even though I THINK it's supposed to be used as a 3-4-5 chain) and the final stroke of the autoattack sequence. But I'd really rather not see hammer's unique features stripped out to make it just like the other weapons. Guardian has six autoattack-capable weapons before we even get into elite specialisations (of which guardian is one of the few to have an autoattack-capable weapon with each elite spec), while most professions have four. It can afford to have one or two that are optimised for more specific situations rather than being cookie-cutter DPS weapons.

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the problem is the perma symbol relies on constant auto, which isnt fun. I'd like to combo some skills together like I do with greatsword etc. but fact is the best thing to do in terms of both support and damage is to auto 90% of the time. it makes the sight of a breakbar actually exciting. It fares a bit better in pvp since you can throw people around a bit, but I wish it offered some built in stability somewhere so I could actually finish casts.

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So i have been trying to play with hammer after seeing some posts on forum about hammer. I tried it in WvW in small group runs.Skill 1 is meh. 3rd chain attack is almost impossible to hit but decent damage (if it hits by luck).Skill 2 is good burst. I am using glacial heart.Skill 3 is hard to hit if target is moving. Misses easily.Skill 4 is fun to use if it lands. I dont like the fact that its single target.Skill 5 again a slow skill and easily avoided.

Yes hammer as a weapon is supposed to be clunky but there is not much to gain or a trade-off from being clunky. Longbow does most of hammer stuff from 1200-1500 range.The only reason i continue using it because no one expects a hammer guardian.

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I used to equip it for the WvW memes. The burst had the potential to instagib unsuspecting roamers. Then they nerfed the trait. Then they nerfed the whole thing during the competitive split.

Now it's the big brother of the Warrior's off-hand Sword.

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Main weapon of one of my Guardians and I find it fun and useful (Zeal/Honor/Firebrand, solo PvE) .The hammer is not a dps weapon, there is no point in complaining about it; even if tweaked it will never supplant the greatsword and there is no need of 2 weapons with the same role.

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@hash.8462

Wouldn’t that just be the equivalent of playing croquet with PvE mobs when you can just kill them?

I can definitely see it being brought as an extra cc utility for certain bosses in in PvE, but for all the other mobs? I feel you would lose health or get killed before you finished laying down all your hammer skills, or that some of them would miss.

I don’t have a problem necessarily with hammer not being a DPS weapon, but it could definitely use improvements to speed, type of skill casts and etc.Maybe some type of special trait that synergies with the protection output, or something that makes it feel more useful in a fun and innovative way would be cool.

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@hash.8462

Wouldn’t that just be the equivalent of playing croquet with PvE mobs when you can just kill them?

I can definitely see it being brought as an extra cc utility for certain bosses in in PvE, but for all the other mobs? I feel you would lose health or get killed before you finished laying down all your hammer skills, or that some of them would miss.

I have perma quickness/protection/25xmight/25xvulnerability and a 240 radius symbol that hit 5 targets and decent healing, is hard to be killed;at golem damage is around 10k with only self boons and I'm fine with it,when fighting a boss, adds generally melt around me, personally I like hammer on guardian.Not a party build of course, my dps don't rise much in party.

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@"Fipmip.7219" said:the problem is the perma symbol relies on constant auto, which isnt fun. I'd like to combo some skills together like I do with greatsword etc. but fact is the best thing to do in terms of both support and damage is to auto 90% of the time. it makes the sight of a breakbar actually exciting. It fares a bit better in pvp since you can throw people around a bit, but I wish it offered some built in stability somewhere so I could actually finish casts.

That's certainly a consideration, but one that I think is a matter for personal taste. The other skills on hammer are mostly there for utility - skill 2 is a gap closer, and the other skills are about controlling the enemy's positioning. I don't think it's a bad thing to have some weapons where the majority of the damage comes from autoattacking rather than having a series of skills that are basically "press on recharge to deal more damage".

As I've said a few times, guardian has one of the highest number of weapons in the game, alongside warrior. It can afford to have some uniqueness to it for use in situations where it shines, while we've already got sword and greatsword as traditional melee DPS weapons. Making hammer more like greatsword would only put it in more direct competition with it.

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here's what I'd do:symbol of stability on hammer 2, making it the only guard weapon with two symbolshammer 3 pulls enemies towards you in PvE only, stays the same in PvPhammer 4 can hit up to 3 opponentsring of warding no longer roots the caster

This gives hammer much more attractive CC options. the extra symbol hopefully puts it on par with greatsword for dps over a long period of time, while greatsword is still best for bursting.

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I have used hammer for some time just to test it against other weapons and I think hammer skills need a complete rework, maybe make hammer a condi weapon with a hard CC in the mix to save it from oblivion. I can't see myself using hammer on my guardian anytime with the current skills.

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@hash.8462 said:

I have perma quickness/protection/25xmight/25xvulnerability and a 240 radius symbol that hit 5 targets and decent healing, is hard to be killed;at golem damage is around 10k with only self boons and I'm fine with it,when fighting a boss, adds generally melt around me, personally I like hammer on guardian.

I would like to see how your hammer performs just vs a mundane veteran bristleback.

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@"JesusDrinksLatte.5091" said:It doesn't help that Glacial Heart is not only not a very good trait, but also competes with one of the strongest traits they have. I remember running quite a fun hammer medi guard build using it but that was years ago, before they reworked the trait system into what it is now. RIP.

In all fairness, there's a degree of that. To optimise a hammer build you really want Zeal and Honor - doesn't leave a lot of space to fit Glacial Heart in. When I do run hammer, I usually don't bother running Glacial Heart unless I'm already bringing Virtues for some other reason.

One wonders if it should also have a reaper-esque "chills you inflict also inflict bleeding", so it can help produce a quasi-condi build, but that might be overloading the trait.

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  • 1 month later...

Glacial Heart shouldn't have been put in the Virtues traitline. In fact, hammer interacts the least with virtues out of every weapon

  • Hits slowly so it triggers Virtue 1 less often. You can try and use Symbolic Power and Permeating Wrath together for burns but greatsword/axe/sword benefit more from multi hits
  • No heals on hammer unless symbol traited. But then any weapon can do that and mace/shield already has heals and regen, even greatsword 3 has a heal for some reason
  • Choosing Glacial Heart means Virtue 2 cannot be a condi cleanse
  • No block on hammer, unlike sword 3 (for projectiles) or mace 3... Or focus 5... or shield 4... greatsword 3 has a blind for some reason

We've got a bunch of power weapons, may as well make hammer a fast hitting condi weapon. I don't think any class has a condi based hammer at the moment

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Personally I think they need to redo/readjust hammer.Make it a condi weapon as guardian doesn't have many. Torch that's all it has.

Give it burning with either confusion or torment.Replace the Ring of warding with some AoE ring that pluses condiAdd condi to the symbol that hammer has.

Hammer and Longbow the two weapons on guardian REALLY feel unpowered and slow.

Hammer on guardian is niche and never really used in any game mode, its so rare that People forget guardian can even use a hammer, I did for while.

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Overall I see it as too slow with punishing cool downs. Speed and cast time is everything and if you look at the other professions Hammer skills you'll see that Guardians is the slowest and needs some tuning to get in line with others (Scrapper has longer windows to support as defensives with #3 leap+evade frames and #4 block frames, and longer offense on #2 whirl).

My personal suggestions:. Skills #4 and #5 get shorter CD that would be a good start - maybe 14 seconds for #4 and 25 for #5. The #4 knockback could do with having a better 3/4 cast time.. Be able to move, albeit at a reduced speed, when casting #5 warding circle; the reason for this is because it cancels itself upon movement.. Auto attack final chain speed to match other Hammer speeds at 3/4 - not sure what can be done to balance the symbols that come from the last AA chain but the current speed at 1^1/4 is brutal, and youre forced to make sure that the last chain hit lands for symbol and protec and light field so your stuck trying to make it work.. Glacial Heart to also include chill on the final blow of the AA chain - I dare suggest making the entire attack #2 unblockable but I feel that would bring in hugely powerful abuse

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  • 2 weeks later...

Honestly hammer just feels slow and its trait is useful for slapstick builds that hit hard one time but i think guardian just lacks synergy in general with the trait outside of hammer.

Hard CC on other guard mainhand weapons:GS has 1 AoE hard CC, mace has none (honestly this would be a perfect opportunity to give it some), axe has most CC when you add the axe trait, scepter has none, sword has none, staff has some on the ward line but thats genuinly hard to land. LB has 1-2 but also has its own issues.

Hard CC on offhands:Torch none, shield 1, focus none.

Guard lacks CC on its weapon skills. And weapon skills benefit the most form the hammer trait.

I think making hammer more fluent on AA, remove the symbol form AA and add the symbol to the hammer 2 skill or to the ward ring (or both actually) and you will get a more synergistic weapon that interacts more with traits and combos.

Further maybe add some more CC capabilities to mace mainhand and maybe also shield to make a CC build more viable paired with glacial heart.

If they would do that, i would play hammer, definetly.

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