90% of Stat Sets are Un-Used

[Firebeard.1746]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The important thing to remember is that the META is largely about community enforcement. The community is focusing on speed clears and defined roles when they recommend builds. A strong case can be made for creating builds that don't do things quickly, but comfortably. Even for raids, you don't need to run the super-effective comps with pure glass builds to win. A community can have expectations where the players prefer not to wear glass cannon gear, because they don't want to spend their time dealing with losses from thin margins of error.

The gear prefixes are there largely to help with preference in play. Factoring in overworld preferences and WvW builds of limitless specialization, there are far more uses for gear sets than you'd expect. I myself have a Marshall Weaver for WvW and particularly stubborn PVE overworld bosses.

I both agree and disagree with this. I feel like there are lots of PVE encounters like Largos and DRMs that force glass cannon. It's actually my main gripe with them. Also there is a required floor of DPS for raids. That was one of the things I loved about Forging steel: it was a squad-based activity but more about mechanics.

[Firebeard.1746]

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

[Hesione.9412]

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

[Cuks.8241]

@Firebeard.1746 said:Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

Most support roles in gw2 are just buff coverage. That is not much different to other games, they are just not called support usually, just DPS. When I was raiding in wow, the raid comps were just as complex and more strictly defined to get the optimum buff coverage and synergy. And buffs had unique effects per class (not like here where quickness is the same regardless who applies it) so the top meta was much narrower. With time blizzard tried to break that with giving more classes more options and unify buff effects because before that some classes never saw high-end raids.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

You're pretty generous in what you consider a class "role" in GW2. For instance, alacrity is a class role now? I'd call boon application a support role. However, in games with better class balance, every class also brings unique support. Thus "support" is not considered a distinct role so much as something a tank/healer/dps does in addition to their primary function.

Far more difficult than WoW? That's hilarious. You honestly believe that guilds competing for world first in WoW would struggle with GW2's one-size-fits-all raiding? I love GW2 and my WoW days are over, but this is just not consistent with reality.

[Katary.7096]

This topic is somewhat weird. The opening statement claims most stat sets serve no purpose in any game mode, yet the current sPvP meta is using seven different amulets in total. In addition, the claim that Berserker is best in slot for most cases is something that might hold up in PvE, so this probably isn't about multiple game modes. The proposed solution is actually more imbalanced than the current state of the game. The argument that a stat conversion trait which would give a character 100% of their thoughness as a bonus to power could lead to greater build diversity is just plain false. In fact, a power damage build would not run zero thoughness if the remaning traits in that specialization were at least decent. It would effectively mean that a Valkyrie build would be outperformed in damage output and survivability by a Soldier build, which is actually a problem since it makes one stat set truly useless. maddoctor gave a similar example earlier with the comparsion of Sinister and Viper, as long as you can pick Viper the existence of Sinister is pointless, as it is always inferior to Viper. That is something I would want to see changed, but certainly not by giving some professions traits which increase their condition damage by 100% of their precision.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I can make a strong case that Marauder is actually the best set in the game, because it has 90% of the damage of Berserker with 6,330 additional health on top. You won't end up doing worse overall by going with tankier gear.
That is certainly true, though Marauder is likely going to be edged out by Trailblazer. The combination of effective health and damage potential on that one is just plain unfair.

@"Veprovina.4876" said:A lot of people would probably be more open towards raids if there wasn't a timer on doing them and just 1 build that is succesful at defeating a boss.There is just one build that can beat a raid boss? Surely you were being hyperbolic when you posted that. The Keep Construct boss has a reputation for encouraging power damage builds with strong burst and yet you can beat it like this:

The content wouldn't be any less challenging if you can finish a boss whenever without a timer telling you when you failed, you'd still need to learn the mechanics if you want to do it and not take a week fighting one boss, there would still be skill involved, just a lot less toxicity and more build variety.Imagine a boss that has five abilities which it uses against players. Further assume that there is a Thief on a glass cannon build fighting that boss. Let us say that four out of the five boss abilities will put that Thief into downed state if he or she gets hit by them, even at full HP. Compare that to a Thief who is running a full Celestial build and who will be downed by only two of the boss attacks. Now consider an elementalist with a Nomad build, only one of the five boss abilities with put them into downed state should they get hit. The party essentially has infinite time to fight the boss. How do you know that beating such a boss would not be more or less challenging depening on the survivability of the builds which you bring into that fight?

@Hannelore.8153 said:This is of course excepting the support builds like Nomad's, which were meant to be carried by other players in exchange for heals.With major toughness, minor vitality and minor healing power Nomad is better classified as a sustain or survivability focused set.

[sorudo.9054]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

[Hesione.9412]

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

Yes, for multiple-player encounters where the boss is attracted to the person with the greatest toughness. You will hold the aggro and you have to stay alive.

Also, healers/support who do very little DPS are a role. So, even ignoring tanks, that gives us two roles: DPS plus support/healer. No tank required to show that there is more than one role.

[Firebeard.1746]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

You're pretty generous in what you consider a class "role" in GW2. For instance, alacrity is a class role now? I'd call boon application a support role. However, in games with better class balance, every class also brings unique support. Thus "support" is not considered a distinct role so much as something a tank/healer/dps does in addition to their primary function.

Far more difficult than WoW? That's hilarious. You honestly believe that guilds competing for world first in WoW would struggle with GW2's one-size-fits-all raiding? I love GW2 and my WoW days are over, but this is just not consistent with reality.

BS support is too broad a classification, each boon is necessary, and you're skirting the fact that some level of skill is needed to apply them. Even though the druid rotation is simple, it's still more effort than pushing a button for a 30 minute buff. I honestly wish they used that model instead of weaving in a role with a rotation. Alac ren is super easy, not sure about QB, but chrono is definite involved (and sometimes reliant on another chrono)

I've already had an argument about this with someone else, I found instances from BFA where heroic was downed 24-48 hours after the new raid launch. Mythic difficulty is just an illusion, there's a veritable stat climb that must happen to clear it, and the top guilds use proc-based classes as a way around it. They may only have 2% chance of succeeding (the procs all happen the right way), but they'll roll the dice over and over to beat the time gating. You can look that up, it's verifiable. I'm not wrong. How hard is a frost mage rotation? Now compare that to say, any Power DPS build hitting its cap and you tell me which is harder. I won't argue about this, but anyone with a brain will tell you and know frost mage is much easier to master than just about any meta build in this game. Also the DPS floors in WoW are much higher. This game IS FAR MORE technically challenging and it's difficult to balance without an artificial power climb. Make it too easy, top-end players lose their crap, make it too hard, too many of the people here not used to being challenged give up. Heck you can hit only 50% DPS while still trying a rotation in this game.

The stat climbs in other MMOs also reduce the skill cap by artificially inflating DPS. I know people in this forum won't agree, but I"ll just say, take a look at unique abilities being cast and how often between the games, as well as Actions per minute, and you'll realize this game is far more challenging than WoW. Not sure about FFXIV, but I can say WoW is far easier and I've raided heroic on and off in PuGs there.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

Most support roles in gw2 are just buff coverage. That is not much different to other games, they are just not called support usually, just DPS. When I was raiding in wow, the raid comps were just as complex and more strictly defined to get the optimum buff coverage and synergy. And buffs had unique effects per class (not like here where quickness is the same regardless who applies it) so the top meta was much narrower. With time blizzard tried to break that with giving more classes more options and unify buff effects because before that some classes never saw high-end raids.

I think you're oversimplifying "just buff coverage" in this game =/= the same in WoW. In this game you actually have to weave those buffs into a real rotation, and you also have to make a stat sacrifice to give them over raw healing and/or DPS. Wow is "I press this button once every X MINUTES". Right now in WoW, there's only 3 buffs + heroism that matter. I actually really hate GW2's buff system in the context of group content. It's been around too long to change it, but it's annoying to say the least.

[Linken.6345]

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

Yes you can it will take you quite awhile to kill anything but you are viable.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Katary.7096 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:A lot of people would probably be more open towards raids if there wasn't a timer on doing them and just 1 build that is succesful at defeating a boss.There is just one build that can beat a raid boss? Surely you were being hyperbolic when you posted that. The Keep Construct boss has a reputation for encouraging power damage builds with strong burst and yet you can beat it like this:

The content wouldn't be any less challenging if you can finish a boss whenever without a timer telling you when you failed, you'd still need to learn the mechanics if you want to do it and not take a week fighting one boss, there would still be skill involved, just a lot less toxicity and more build variety.Imagine a boss that has five abilities which it uses against players. Further assume that there is a Thief on a glass cannon build fighting that boss. Let us say that four out of the five boss abilities will put that Thief into downed state if he or she gets hit by them, even at full HP. Compare that to a Thief who is running a full Celestial build and who will be downed by only two of the boss attacks. Now consider an elementalist with a Nomad build, only one of the five boss abilities with put them into downed state should they get hit. The party essentially has infinite time to fight the boss. How do you know that beating such a boss would not be more or less challenging depening on the survivability of the builds which you bring into that fight?

Lol, i love the Raider contrarian attitude on this forums. :sweat_smile:

Every time someone writes a forum poston not being allowed into raids because they don't have the meta build and want to play their own build raiders are like "You're so entitled if you think we're here to carry you, meta builds are here for a reason, you do the work on the golem, you practice that rotation and don't expect a handout, play the snowcrows build!".

But as soon as someone like me says that there's like 1 build or so that's meta and for Raids there's always the obligatory contrary youtube video "proving" otherwise like "meta is not the only build allowed in raids, see this video it's possible, raids are doable with all the builds". So there's more builds now?

Are you telling me that all the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build are full of shit and all the raiders that enforce that don't exist? I mean, what are you arguing exactly? :smiley:

I don't know what to tell you, lol! :sweat_smile:

Pick a side and stick with it. It's either meta builds because enrage timers and no one else can join cause "we won't carry", or everyone is welcome and can get a pug raiding squad started and join with whoever, whenever.

[Linken.6345]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:A lot of people would probably be more open towards raids if there wasn't a timer on doing them and just 1 build that is succesful at defeating a boss.There is just one build that can beat a raid boss? Surely you were being hyperbolic when you posted that. The Keep Construct boss has a reputation for encouraging power damage builds with strong burst and yet you can beat it like this:

The content wouldn't be any less challenging if you can finish a boss whenever without a timer telling you when you failed, you'd still need to learn the mechanics if you want to do it and not take a week fighting one boss, there would still be skill involved, just a lot less toxicity and more build variety.Imagine a boss that has five abilities which it uses against players. Further assume that there is a Thief on a glass cannon build fighting that boss. Let us say that four out of the five boss abilities will put that Thief into downed state if he or she gets hit by them, even at full HP. Compare that to a Thief who is running a full Celestial build and who will be downed by only two of the boss attacks. Now consider an elementalist with a Nomad build, only one of the five boss abilities with put them into downed state should they get hit. The party essentially has infinite time to fight the boss. How do you know that beating such a boss would not be more or less challenging depening on the survivability of the builds which you bring into that fight?

Lol, i love the Raider contrarian attitude on this forums. :sweat_smile:

Every time someone writes a forum poston not being allowed into raids because they don't have the meta build and want to play their own build raiders are like

"You're so entitled if you think we're here to carry you, meta builds are here for a reason, you do the work on the golem, you practice that rotation and don't expect a handout, play the snowcrows build!"

.

But as soon as someone like me says that there's like 1 build or so that's meta and for Raids there's always the obligatory contrary youtube video "proving" otherwise like

"meta is not the only build allowed in raids, see this video it's possible, raids are doable with all the builds"

. So there's more builds now?

Are you telling me that all the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build are full of kitten and all the raiders that enforce that don't exist? I mean, what are you arguing exactly? :smiley:

I don't know what to tell you, lol! :sweat_smile:

Pick a side and stick with it. It's either meta builds because enrage timers and no one else can join cause "we won't carry", or everyone is welcome and can get a pug raiding squad started and join with whoever, whenever.

Ever thought that they can do that because they are really good players and can squeeze every inch out of their kittens to make it work?

You can clear raids in greens if you are good enough.I am not and never will be.

EditThe reason people say go meta or dont come at all is that the meta classes have good synergy and they can be sure they dont get my own build here kind of players that do 2-3k dps and think thats enough.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:A lot of people would probably be more open towards raids if there wasn't a timer on doing them and just 1 build that is succesful at defeating a boss.There is just one build that can beat a raid boss? Surely you were being hyperbolic when you posted that. The Keep Construct boss has a reputation for encouraging power damage builds with strong burst and yet you can beat it like this:

The content wouldn't be any less challenging if you can finish a boss whenever without a timer telling you when you failed, you'd still need to learn the mechanics if you want to do it and not take a week fighting one boss, there would still be skill involved, just a lot less toxicity and more build variety.Imagine a boss that has five abilities which it uses against players. Further assume that there is a Thief on a glass cannon build fighting that boss. Let us say that four out of the five boss abilities will put that Thief into downed state if he or she gets hit by them, even at full HP. Compare that to a Thief who is running a full Celestial build and who will be downed by only two of the boss attacks. Now consider an elementalist with a Nomad build, only one of the five boss abilities with put them into downed state should they get hit. The party essentially has infinite time to fight the boss. How do you know that beating such a boss would not be more or less challenging depening on the survivability of the builds which you bring into that fight?

Lol, i love the Raider contrarian attitude on this forums. :sweat_smile:

Every time someone writes a forum poston not being allowed into raids because they don't have the meta build and want to play their own build raiders are like

"You're so entitled if you think we're here to carry you, meta builds are here for a reason, you do the work on the golem, you practice that rotation and don't expect a handout, play the snowcrows build!"

.

But as soon as someone like me says that there's like 1 build or so that's meta and for Raids there's always the obligatory contrary youtube video "proving" otherwise like

"meta is not the only build allowed in raids, see this video it's possible, raids are doable with all the builds"

. So there's more builds now?

Are you telling me that all the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build are full of kitten and all the raiders that enforce that don't exist? I mean, what are you arguing exactly? :smiley:

I don't know what to tell you, lol! :sweat_smile:

Pick a side and stick with it. It's either meta builds because enrage timers and no one else can join cause "we won't carry", or everyone is welcome and can get a pug raiding squad started and join with whoever, whenever.

Ever thought that they can do that because they are really good players and can squeeze every inch out of their kittens to make it work?

You can clear raids in greens if you are good enough.I am not and never will be.

EditThe reason people say go meta or dont come at all is that the meta classes have good synergy and they can be sure they dont get my own build here kind of players that do 2-3k dps and think thats enough.

Well that's exactly my point here.

There's just the meta builds for raids. Meaning, build diversity is practically non existent because you need that DPS to clear the boss before the timer. That's why all the DPS. I'm not arguing that at all. And of course, if someone is super perfect and whatever, they can do raids in suboptimal gear but then again, not really - you still need the DPS, and that's just like someone playing Dark Souls with a guitar hero peripheral, it's just for show, not really something to make an argument around.

I'm just saying that, if there was no timer on raids, there would be more build diversity in raids. There would be no need for X amount of DPS to clear, and people would probably accept pugs more readily even if they don't have meta builds. There would still be an element of learning the encounter, etc., but would be way more forgiving due to some builds being more tanky, so if someone does mess up, people wouldn't be as annoyed as they are now.

But that's not the case right now, and right now, you can't raid if you don't have a snowcrow build. That's just a fact, i can't just go in raids with my "Crit Kitten" build and expect people to let me raid with them. Hence why i said, there's only small amounts of builds that are allowed in at all.

[Linken.6345]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:A lot of people would probably be more open towards raids if there wasn't a timer on doing them and just 1 build that is succesful at defeating a boss.There is just one build that can beat a raid boss? Surely you were being hyperbolic when you posted that. The Keep Construct boss has a reputation for encouraging power damage builds with strong burst and yet you can beat it like this:

The content wouldn't be any less challenging if you can finish a boss whenever without a timer telling you when you failed, you'd still need to learn the mechanics if you want to do it and not take a week fighting one boss, there would still be skill involved, just a lot less toxicity and more build variety.Imagine a boss that has five abilities which it uses against players. Further assume that there is a Thief on a glass cannon build fighting that boss. Let us say that four out of the five boss abilities will put that Thief into downed state if he or she gets hit by them, even at full HP. Compare that to a Thief who is running a full Celestial build and who will be downed by only two of the boss attacks. Now consider an elementalist with a Nomad build, only one of the five boss abilities with put them into downed state should they get hit. The party essentially has infinite time to fight the boss. How do you know that beating such a boss would not be more or less challenging depening on the survivability of the builds which you bring into that fight?

Lol, i love the Raider contrarian attitude on this forums. :sweat_smile:

Every time someone writes a forum poston not being allowed into raids because they don't have the meta build and want to play their own build raiders are like

"You're so entitled if you think we're here to carry you, meta builds are here for a reason, you do the work on the golem, you practice that rotation and don't expect a handout, play the snowcrows build!"

.

But as soon as someone like me says that there's like 1 build or so that's meta and for Raids there's always the obligatory contrary youtube video "proving" otherwise like

"meta is not the only build allowed in raids, see this video it's possible, raids are doable with all the builds"

. So there's more builds now?

Are you telling me that all the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build are full of kitten and all the raiders that enforce that don't exist? I mean, what are you arguing exactly? :smiley:

I don't know what to tell you, lol! :sweat_smile:

Pick a side and stick with it. It's either meta builds because enrage timers and no one else can join cause "we won't carry", or everyone is welcome and can get a pug raiding squad started and join with whoever, whenever.

Ever thought that they can do that because they are really good players and can squeeze every inch out of their kittens to make it work?

You can clear raids in greens if you are good enough.I am not and never will be.

EditThe reason people say go meta or dont come at all is that the meta classes have good synergy and they can be sure they dont get my own build here kind of players that do 2-3k dps and think thats enough.

Well that's exactly my point here.

There's just the meta builds for raids. Meaning, build diversity is practically non existent because you need that DPS to clear the boss before the timer. That's why all the DPS. I'm not arguing that at all. And of course, if someone is super perfect and whatever, they can do raids in suboptimal gear but then again, not really - you still need the DPS, and that's just like someone playing Dark Souls with a guitar hero peripheral, it's just for show, not really something to make an argument around.

I'm just saying that, if there was no timer on raids, there would be more build diversity in raids. There would be no need for X amount of DPS to clear, and people would probably accept pugs more readily even if they don't have meta builds. There would still be an element of learning the encounter, etc., but would be way more forgiving due to some builds being more tanky, so if someone does mess up, people wouldn't be as annoyed as they are now.

But that's not the case right now, and right now, you can't raid if you don't have a snowcrow build. That's just a fact, i can't just go in raids with my "Crit Kitten" build and expect people to let me raid with them. Hence why i said, there's only small amounts of builds that are allowed in at all.

Get a squad with gasp people you form a friendship with play raids every week and run Crit kitten with those people.Random people in lfg of course dont know you so why should they embrace you meme build?

[Cuks.8241]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

Most support roles in gw2 are just buff coverage. That is not much different to other games, they are just not called support usually, just DPS. When I was raiding in wow, the raid comps were just as complex and more strictly defined to get the optimum buff coverage and synergy. And buffs had unique effects per class (not like here where quickness is the same regardless who applies it) so the top meta was much narrower. With time blizzard tried to break that with giving more classes more options and unify buff effects because before that some classes never saw high-end raids.

I think you're oversimplifying "just buff coverage" in this game =/= the same in WoW. In this game you actually have to weave those buffs into a real rotation, and you also have to make a stat sacrifice to give them over raw healing and/or DPS. Wow is "I press this button once every X MINUTES". Right now in WoW, there's only 3 buffs + heroism that matter. I actually really hate GW2's buff system in the context of group content. It's been around too long to change it, but it's annoying to say the least.

My experience from WoW raiding comes from burning crusade and Wolk. Especially BC had probably the tightest meta in history. 25 man raid format and every group (e.g., tank group, caster group...) had a strict class and build combo for best synergy.

I would say rotations are harder in GW2, the combat is more action-oriented. DPS checks are tighter in wow. But playing a "support" is usually no harder than playing a pure dps. Alaren, qfb, BS hard?

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

@Mortifera.6138 said:90% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That's true 72.8% of the time.

And, its a great way to drive home a solution when you get to frame a 'problem' with it.

[Katary.7096]

@"Veprovina.4876" said:Lol, i love the Raider contrarian attitude on this forums. :sweat_smile:Glad that you are enjoying yourself, I guess? I am not a raider though.Every time someone writes a forum poston not being allowed into raids because they don't have the meta build and want to play their own build raiders are like "You're so entitled if you think we're here to carry you, meta builds are here for a reason, you do the work on the golem, you practice that rotation and don't expect a handout, play the snowcrows build!".There are players who will demand that other players play certain builds, especially in pug groups, where there are inherently more unknown variables at play. There are also players who will play with people who run non-meta builds.But as soon as someone like me says that there's like 1 build or so that's meta and for Raids there's always the obligatory contrary youtube video "proving" otherwise like "meta is not the only build allowed in raids, see this video it's possible, raids are doable with all the builds". So there's more builds now?There have always been multiple builds, but sure, let's say there are a lot more builds now then there were in the past. And what is it supposed to mean when you say someone like you is saying it? Who are you and why does that matter here? You did not say that there is like one build or so that is meta, you said that there is just one build that is successful at defeating a boss. The first statement makes sense, the second one does not and yes, that video is evidence in that regard. Is that a problem or why did you put "proving" in quotations?Are you telling me that all the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build are full of kitten and all the raiders that enforce that don't exist? I mean, what are you arguing exactly? :smiley:I was arguing that you cannot have been serious when you made that statement, because it is obviously not true. Now I am going to argue that raiders do not have a monopoly on who gets to play raid content. They cannot report a group for having players using non-meta builds and get them banned from the game. In your words: "All the people that complained how they're not getting into raids unless they run the approved meta build" could have started their own community.I don't know what to tell you, lol! :sweat_smile:You can tell me why you think that content with a timer would be as challenging as the same content without a timer.Pick a side and stick with it. It's either meta builds because enrage timers and no one else can join cause "we won't carry", or everyone is welcome and can get a pug raiding squad started and join with whoever, whenever.No thanks, both sides get some things wrong and some things right. I will stick with the middle ground.

[Teratus.2859]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Raids are even worse, the whole concept of Enrage Timers is essentially all or nothing.

Judging the game by content that was intentionally made for powercreep isn't particularly wise. We're talking about encounters that were designed to fail if you don't come at them with an "all-in" approach, and that's not a good benchmark.

Do you think that, if they removed enrage timers and you had all the time you want (per week) to finish a boss that there would be more build variety in Raids/overall?And would more builds be accepted into Raids with less "toxicity" debate surrounded by it?

Absolutely to the first, definitely not to the second.

Dungeon's already proved that time will always be an in high demand element in certain content, even without enrage timers there will be people being bhurt about groups that take a few minutes longer to beat the content and still bickering about DPS being too low.

Raids can already be beaten with less optimal groups.. people have proven this over and over again and some even actively handicapped themselves for the sport of it, such as those groups that beat the content with masterwork gear builds etc just to prove they could.

Most people just don't want to play outside the meta or their own skill level, nor do they want to play with others who don't match those requirements.So removing enrage timers really wouldn't make that much of a difference for them overall other than probably getting into more arguments with people who join their groups despite not living upto the requested requirements.It may attract a few more players but there's no guarantee they will stay.. if they can't easily find groups that will accept that they don't want to play meta then nothing will really change.

There's also the problem that removing rage timers would make most some of these bosses easily soloable by tank builds.. it would just take a lot of time.So they do serve a purpose.. but I do agree with the previous poster about the poor choice of benchmark.

Ultimately it comes down to the same old argument.. should the content have an easy mode?.I still vote yes on that and have made my arguments many times.However I also believe the content should have a "hard" mode as well for those who really want that high level difficult experience and some raids do have that in the form of CM's.Options.. that's what people want in games like this, the ability to enjoy content at their own pace.

[sorudo.9054]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

Yes, for multiple-player encounters where the boss is attracted to the person with the greatest toughness. You will hold the aggro and you have to stay alive.

Also, healers/support who do very little DPS are a role. So, even ignoring tanks, that gives us two roles: DPS plus support/healer. No tank required to show that there is more than one role.

and toughness isn't working as well as power, if it did tanks would be far more common.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Not sure you could argue this. In OW you can build whatever you want and get away with it, in PVE there are specialized roles way more than other MMOS (quick, alac, might, bs, spirits, healing, tanks, DPS) some builds can cover multiple bases sure, but comps in this game are way more complicated and support buffs can take skill to have to apply based on class (chrono specifically). At top end PVE, this game is FAR more difficult than anything I'd done in WoW.

Most support roles in gw2 are just buff coverage. That is not much different to other games, they are just not called support usually, just DPS. When I was raiding in wow, the raid comps were just as complex and more strictly defined to get the optimum buff coverage and synergy. And buffs had unique effects per class (not like here where quickness is the same regardless who applies it) so the top meta was much narrower. With time blizzard tried to break that with giving more classes more options and unify buff effects because before that some classes never saw high-end raids.

I think you're oversimplifying "just buff coverage" in this game =/= the same in WoW. In this game you actually have to weave those buffs into a real rotation, and you also have to make a stat sacrifice to give them over raw healing and/or DPS. Wow is "I press this button once every X MINUTES". Right now in WoW, there's only 3 buffs + heroism that matter. I actually really hate GW2's buff system in the context of group content. It's been around too long to change it, but it's annoying to say the least.

My experience from WoW raiding comes from burning crusade and Wolk. Especially BC had probably the tightest meta in history. 25 man raid format and every group (e.g., tank group, caster group...) had a strict class and build combo for best synergy.

You talking about the shadow priest shadow weaving/ruin warlock combo that was meta in BC and they took just enough of every other class to provide buffs/heals/tank? If you weren't doing that hyper debuff efficient comp, Really it was some combo of 1 mage, 1 priest, 1 Shaman, 1 druid, 2 locks, + enough unique pallies for buffs (2-3 iirc), so we're looking at ~30% of your raid

I would say rotations are harder in GW2, the combat is more action-oriented. DPS checks are tighter in wow. But playing a "support" is usually no harder than playing a pure dps. Alaren, qfb, BS hard?

As long as you can kill 1 boss with a higher ilvl, your group will start climbing in dps, and with easier rotations, it's easier to hit that cap. Heck, frost mage in BC was a 1 button every 2s rotation and a 2nd every 45s, you just used utility as situation demands. The rotations being so simple makes the dps demands as i've mentioned earlier, nothing but a gear/consumable/synergy check.

Also note, what % of your raid is a unique support role, even in BC? Far lower than in this game, at least half your raid is providing some sort of utility

Also if your boon support dies in this game you lose the boon. Definently harder here than WoW

In fact the only deadly death in wow is the tank, sometimes healer. Here it can be any of the supports + anyone filling a raid mechanic role, or even 1 dps depending on the boss. The few times i raided back in your era you could still kill a boss with a dead person or 2.

And the mechanics in gw2 feel way more intense than anything i experienced in wow, back then or even BFA when i still raided.

The only reason why raiders in this game think it's easier is because this game isn't famous for its raiding and the content get so stale with new raid releases being so sparse, after the players learn the raids they just don't feel hard any more.

From a player skill perspective, this game is far more intense.

I don't play any of those classes, but their rotations are definitely more involved than the games i was comapring. I did have a guildie with an alacren who started refusing to play it because he couldn't hit its DPS capabilities. SO people tap out when they struggle.

[Hesione.9412]

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

Yes, for multiple-player encounters where the boss is attracted to the person with the greatest toughness. You will hold the aggro and you have to stay alive.

Also, healers/support who do very little DPS are a role. So, even ignoring tanks, that gives us two roles: DPS plus support/healer. No tank required to show that there is more than one role.

and toughness isn't working as well as power, if it did tanks would be far more common.

You are shifting the goalposts and ignoring what I said. Anyone who wishes to can expand this quote to find the comment where you said "roles are reduced to 1". My reply was that there was more than one, showing the roles.

Then you shifted the goalposts to only the tank. I then replied to you about how there is a tank role in raids.

Now you're saying there aren't enough tanks. That is shifting the goalposts for the second time.

I get it, you're invested in playing a tank. It's great to pick something you enjoy playing, and it's wonderful that these games allow us to do so. But lacking a tank role that you are used to in other games does not make your statement "roles are reduced to 1" true.

[Schimmi.6872]

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

answer me this, can i make a tank and be called viable?if not then you just answered my statement being true.

Yes, for multiple-player encounters where the boss is attracted to the person with the greatest toughness. You will hold the aggro and you have to stay alive.

Also, healers/support who do very little DPS are a role. So, even ignoring tanks, that gives us two roles: DPS plus support/healer. No tank required to show that there is more than one role.

and toughness isn't working as well as power, if it did tanks would be far more common.

But the gear is not the reason for this, tanks aren't common, because most parts of the game have no aggro-mechanics a tank could control.So with the exception of some raid bosses with controllable tank-mechanics, this role doesn't exist.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"sorudo.9054" said:and toughness isn't working as well as power, if it did tanks would be far more common.

Maybe tanks aren't so common because you only need one in the specific content that requires them... Some encounters might be better with two tanks, but that's it.Power has all the power (pun intended). The dominance of Power in the damage equation means Precision and Ferocity aren't working as well as Power, yet most damage sets use them. It's not the "relative" strength of a stat that matters.

[Svarty.8019]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:The important thing to remember is that the META is largely about community enforcement. The community is focusing on speed clears and defined roles when they recommend builds. A strong case can be made for creating builds that don't do things quickly, but comfortably. Even for raids, you don't need to run the super-effective comps with pure glass builds to win. A community can have expectations where the players prefer not to wear glass cannon gear, because they don't want to spend their time dealing with losses from thin margins of error.

I would like to know how to "comfortably" counter gankers or zergs in WvW :disappointed:

Joking aside, I think the tank-averse doctrine seems to force people go burst or go home. Slow-and-steady damage could get out-healed, so instead it's about spikes. That's as true with conditions (supposedly DoTs) as it is with power damage - and it's as true with NPCs/Mobs vs player as it is with player vs player. Mobs drop giant spikes and often heal periodically, nullifying the option of comfortable damage.

A dead enemy can't hurt you. Kill it before it kills you. Attack is the best form of defense. A more nuanced system would be very expensive.

The saving graces of GW2 are Dodge and Downed State : They prevent this system from looking silly.