Are the devs happy with fractal balance?

[Katary.7096]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Oh I forgot about that. I thought they were referring to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo since the one you mentioned is used for heal renegade.Do people actually run heal renegade? I have not seen one of those in over a year. Heal firebrands seem to be everywhere though.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Katary.7096 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Oh I forgot about that. I thought they were referring to

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo

since the one you mentioned is used for heal renegade.Do people actually run heal renegade? I have not seen one of those in over a year. Heal firebrands seem to be everywhere though.

Some do in fractals and definitely more often that a revenant without an elite spec.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cyninja.2954 said:I wouldn't go so far in saying a majority of the player base struggles. I personally believe a large part of the player base simply does not care. Many are perfectly fine and happy with just logging in and doing some relaxing pve and open world stuff. The main difficulties arise from wanting to transition from this world to more dedicated content.

I don't think that's true, I think that many players don't feel they can make the jump, not that they don't care. And you made an indirect, but a good assessment that current end-game PVE design is anything but relaxing (and in a previous post you made the assessment that it encourages being more stringent as opposed to inclusive), all things that play into not wanting to make that jump. The only exception is if you're playing a support because managing your rotation against mechanics is generally not as bad for supports as the rotation tend to be simplistic. A good game will cater to both ends of its player base in its content. In order for the content to valuable, most of the player base needs to enjoy it. In order for it to have the following/social support for hype, it has to cater to hard core players in some way. Mighty teapot is a valuable member of our community. And there is value in having more engagement from the playerbase as a whole. WoW raids have different tiers for a reason. The balance the devs can create is reward vs. difficulty, which already kind of exists with fractal CMs. The 2 top CMs give mystic coins, so there's huge incentive to do them, but you're still rewarded for doing non-CMs and climbing that ladder.

I'm really salty that the DRM CMs are part of the meta achieve for Champions. I want them to exist as an achieve and it to be rewarding to do them, but at their current difficulty, it kinda feels ridiculous and I think it would be a mistake for Arenanet to try to make the open world as intense as some of their end-game PVE experiences, i think that would kill the player base. If the next level of Dragon Mastery doesn't significantly improve puggability of CMs, then I might just be done (maybe). I actually like raids better. It feels wrong seeing some of the LFG posts for them if they're supposed to be so mainstream it's sane to have as part of the meta-achieve.

I actually ran a DPS meter one some of my successful DRMs and it looked something like this:

raid god DPS person carried us.

I barely pulled my weight with my ranged build (as an average of our total DPS vs. # of players)

Everyone except me, the raid god and the support died all the time (sometimes support still did).

The raid god was a reaper or a cqb, without exception, I think those classes have inherent mitigation that helps with the mechanics and still allows high DPS.

[Katary.7096]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Some do in fractals and definitely more often that a revenant without an elite spec.I guess I simply don't run into them then. And my earlier statement should not suggest that non-elite spec revenant builds are a great idea, both herald and renegade are pretty much guaranteed to be upgrades over core rev.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Firebeard.1746" said:I'm really salty that the DRM CMs are part of the meta achieve for Champions. I want them to exist as an achieve and it to be rewarding to do them, but at their current difficulty, it kinda feels ridiculous and I think it would be a mistake for Arenanet to try to make the open world as intense as some of their end-game PVE experiences, i think that would kill the player base.You need to take a solid look at what happened to this game from the release of Dragonfall up until Icebrood Saga ep1. One that isn't fettered by your confirmation bias.For almost 5 months this studio went all-in on the casual, "chill open world experience". Feeding us a never ending stream of "community events" like the Champion Rush, the World Boss Rush ect and culminating with the release of the Prologue.Grothmar Valley is essentially a love letter to the players who had been complaining that the game is too hard, that they just wanted to chill out, hop on their mounts and enjoy the scenery. It has zero ambient threat (outside the dynamic events) other than some devourers.The story instances from the prologue were by far the easiest we had been delivered since Core. The final combat sequence offers a veteran mob that doesn't even have a breakbar. The strike that released with it remains to this day, the easiest group encounter in this game.

The end result for Arenanet?The worst financial quarter this game had ever seen.Numbers that were SO bad that the game director at the time just....disappeared.

So before you start going off about what would "kill the playerbase", you should consider that Arenanet already knows how . They actively did so under Mike Z....and it wasn't done by catering to the people who were asking for more challenging content.

If the next level of Dragon Mastery doesn't significantly improve puggability of CMs, then I might just be done (maybe).You "might just", "maybe" be done?Because your pug teams cannot complete full CM DRMs?You really have two choices here:

1. Recognize that the CMs of these DRMs are not made for standard mismatched PUG groups. Recognize that the regular versions of the DRMs are just fine for the gemstore warriors and those who creditcard farm their legendaries. but that the CMs are meant for those who play harder. Understand that the content is meant for a group of people that spent over a year in this game being ignored by Arenanet. The recognition that these players are also paying customers and part of the playerbase might help ease your pain of seeing CMs on the meta achievements.
2. Play better and carry harder.

Though I suppose "taking your ball and going home" because Arenanet doesn't magically enable every low-effort player in the game contribute at an acceptable level via a Mastery is also an option.

I barely pulled my weight with my ranged build (as an average of our total DPS vs. # of players)Found the real problem

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Obtena.7952" said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

So, that "higher tuned" threshold in other games quite often can be passed with far less skill than the supposedly "easier" content from GW2.

This is, btw, a reason why those other games have it easier when it comes to balancing the content for different types of players. Because putting way more emphasis on gear - the part that all types of players, regardless of skill, can have in common, makes it so the gap between more casual and more hardcore content becomes way smaller. And that every type of content you create can be aimed at a much wider band of your game population.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

OK ... I'm not debating how skill and gear interact here compared to other games. GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with. Many other MMO's don't. Success threshold is low and this is why you can take "40% less DPS" builds and win. If you did that in other games, you would be crushed. Some games are even gear-gated it's that obvious. GW2 doesn't do any of that to it's players.

So, that "higher tuned" threshold in other games quite often can be passed with far less skill than the supposedly "easier" content from GW2.

Yeah maybe .. but I'm not making an argument about player's skill here.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

OK ... I'm not debating how skill and gear interact here compared to other games. GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with. Many other MMO's don't. Success threshold is low and this is why you can take "

40% less DPS

" builds and win. If you did that in other games, you would be crushed. Some games are even gear-gated it's that obvious. GW2 doesn't do any of that to it's players.

So, that "higher tuned" threshold in other games quite often can be passed with far less skill than the supposedly "easier" content from GW2.

Yeah maybe .. but I'm not making an argument about player's skill here.But it is very relevant. How big the threshold is depends on the game's mechanics. That "40% less dps" means something different in GW2, where the dps difference between average and top is 10x, and, say FF XIV where it's more around 3x. If you look at that, you will see that 40% leeway threshold in gw2 is more like 12% threshold in FF XIV. And that's usually less than the difference between you in the gear that's available when the content gets released, and you after you geared up in a better stuff (either from this very content, or from next patch in the cycle). Basically, wait 3 months and you have that much advantage even without the instance having any leeway at the start (and, obviously, they always do have some leeway).

So, again, what is easier and what is harder?

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

OK ... I'm not debating how skill and gear interact here compared to other games. GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with. Many other MMO's don't. Success threshold is low and this is why you can take "

40% less DPS

" builds and win. If you did that in other games, you would be crushed. Some games are even gear-gated it's that obvious. GW2 doesn't do any of that to it's players.

So, that "higher tuned" threshold in other games quite often can be passed with far less skill than the supposedly "easier" content from GW2.

Yeah maybe .. but I'm not making an argument about player's skill here.But it is very relevant. How big the threshold is depends on the game's mechanics. That "40% less dps" means something different in GW2, where the dps difference between average and top is 10x, and, say FF XIV where it's more around 3x. If you look at that, you will see that 40% leeway threshold in gw2 is more like 12% threshold in FF XIV. And that's usually less than the difference between you in the gear that's available when the content gets released, and you after you geared up in a better stuff (either from this very content, or from next patch in the cycle). Basically, wait 3 months and you have that much advantage even without the instance having any leeway at the start (and, obviously, they always do have some leeway).

So, again, what is easier and what is harder?

I don't know what's easier and harder. I know that GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with when other MMO's don't. Does that mean you need to be more skilled to play GW2 with low performance builds than MMO's that need players to play high threshold builds to be successful? I don't think you can conclude that for any case. I mean, maybe ... but I really think it doesn't matter because what other MMO's do isn't contingent on GW2 being successful or not. GW2 is successful because it DOESN'T do many of the things other MMO's do.

I think any claim Anet needs to follow other MMO trends in content difficulty and design is an attempt to justify Anet ALSO balance classes like other MMO's for same content. The fact is that GW2 need NEITHER follow other MMO content design NOR class balancing philosophies. It has it's own and they work. The things that make players successful in this game are knowing the encounters and knowing how to play their build. Even when content does factor build/gear into success, it's NOT as significant a factor in knowledge of build and encounters.

[Erzian.5218]

I don't think gw2 is that difficult from other MMORPGs anymore when it comes to its "endgame" content. It's trinity is certainly less rigid than, e.g. FF14 where your class defines your role, but it's not too different from ESO where you can play any class as any role. In terms of difficulty it isn't largely different from ESO either. I think this a fair comparison of the difficulty levels of both games:

1. ESO normal: basically low level fractals
2. ESO veteran: similar to t4 fractals and raids

3. ESO veteran hard mode: Kind of the same as CMs in gw2. Their difficulty varies largely, some are easier than gw2's equivalent, some are more difficult

   I don't think the skill requirement is very different either. ESO has more gear farm than gw2, but most gear can be farmed in normal mode in a couple of hours(or at least a non-perfected version of it, which is only a very minor dps difference: ~2% dps in the worst cases, less in other cases). Then you have the matter of item quality but that pretty much only matters for your weapons, and the rest can be one tier lower which is almost free.However, through achievements/titles, ESO has kind of a fourth difficulty level: Veteran hard mode combined with a time limit and a no death requirement, called trifecta. Again, the difficulty varies on the content but most of them are more challenging than anything gw2 has to offer, e.g. the trifecta of the raid that was released more than 1.5 years ago would still be unobtainable for the average veteran raider even if they were immortal, simply because they don't meet the dps checks required to complete it within the time limit - not because of gear but because of player performance. With veteran raider, I refer to someone who does veteran raids (including some hard modes) regularly, not your average dungeon pug dps player who doesn't even do 10 % of what he should be doing. I wish gw2 had something similar (no death should become no downed player) as it could provide the challenging content that gw2 lacks.

[medivh.4725]

Only complaint is the repeated dailies for rec, and certain frac like Sunqua is too long.A daily and rec should not be the same as nobody wants to do a stage twice in a day

[Agrippa.1693]

@mindcircus.1506 said:At what point does the Guild Wars 2 community stop pointing at team compositions from a small Speed Running guild as something for Anet to base their balance around?

At what point do people see that that's very predictive behaviour of ANY community. We are sheep after all! Follow the leader, leader, leader, follow the leader!

[Cynz.9437]

Are devs happy with it? I assume so otherwise we wouldn't have guardians dominating EVERY CONTENT in this game, be it pvp, wvw, raids or fractals in this case. It is just beyond stupid how obvious their bias regarding guards is. Quickness and alac are must have? Why not give it to everyone then. Then we wouldn't have such strict comps like we have now, imo. Also, change how instabilities work and redesigning/adding new fractals lead to the necessity to bring certain build. You can't just 5 man dps 100 CM like you maybe could do highest lv fractals in old times. You don't get rewarded for doing mechanic and avoiding hard hitting attacks - you get rewarded for simply outhealing that crap because in many cases you can't even dodge/block it all due to endurance restriction and frequency of attacks. That is just my 2ct.

At this point i am so bitter about whole fractal team comps and how thief handled regarding this content, i just want Detonate Plasma from every enemy in fractals if i can't have anything else.

[paulelle.6813]

@Cynz.9437 said:Are devs happy with it? I assume so otherwise we wouldn't have guardians dominating EVERY CONTENT in this game, be it pvp, wvw, raids or fractals in this case.

Ah and I thought that pchronos are dominating raids...but they are actually guardiands, I see :)

[Cynz.9437]

@paulelle.6813 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Are devs happy with it? I assume so otherwise we wouldn't have guardians dominating EVERY CONTENT in this game, be it pvp, wvw, raids or fractals in this case.

Ah and I thought that pchronos are dominating raids...but they are actually guardiands, I see :)

When did you raid last time? I do it weekly and yes, guards (dhs, qfb, hfb specially) are wanted in most group and often replace chrono. I never said that chrono is not nearly must have for most bosses. I did deimos CM for example not on my thief, rev, chrono or any other class i have, no, i did it on HFB because it is that stupidly easy and effective.

[paulelle.6813]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@paulelle.6813 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Are devs happy with it? I assume so otherwise we wouldn't have guardians dominating EVERY CONTENT in this game, be it pvp, wvw, raids or fractals in this case.

Ah and I thought that pchronos are dominating raids...but they are actually guardiands, I see :)

When did you raid last time? I do it weekly and yes, guards (hfb, dhs, qfb specially) are wanted in most group and often replace chrono. I never said that chrono is not nearly must have for most bosses.

I raid about 6 days per week, fullclearing with 2 accounts and speedclearing with 2 statics. When was the last time you were in a good group or saw a raid record? Because they are all pchrono/cchrono stack.

[Cynz.9437]

@paulelle.6813 said:@Cynz.9437 said:

@paulelle.6813 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Are devs happy with it? I assume so otherwise we wouldn't have guardians dominating EVERY CONTENT in this game, be it pvp, wvw, raids or fractals in this case.

Ah and I thought that pchronos are dominating raids...but they are actually guardiands, I see :)

When did you raid last time? I do it weekly and yes, guards (hfb, dhs, qfb specially) are wanted in most group and often replace chrono. I never said that chrono is not nearly must have for most bosses.

I raid about 6 days per week, fullclearing with 2 accounts and speedclearing with 2 statics. When was the last time you were in a good group or saw a raid record? Because they are all pchrono/cchrono stack.

Raid records, really? You really assume that 100% of raid population is there for raid records? Is chrono good? Yes, i never denied it. Still doesn't change the fact that guards are dominating in most contents of this game. Please tell me how great is chrono in strikes for example or fractal? They may pass as "dps" lol.

[paulelle.6813]

Is chrono good in stirkes? Yep, pretty goodhttps://dps.report/HfWA-20210107-212948_fallnhttps://dps.report/LZ7f-20201228-213036_bone

[lare.5129]

Is chrono good in stirkes? Yep, pretty goodno, it is not good.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

OK ... I'm not debating how skill and gear interact here compared to other games. GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with. Many other MMO's don't. Success threshold is low and this is why you can take "

40% less DPS

" builds and win. If you did that in other games, you would be crushed.

This is just not true! Have you played any other MMO's?Just like in GW2, when you hit endgame content in pretty much any other MMO, you have a very wide range of viable builds available! Not to mention the fact, that pretty much every MMO has some sort of a carry option/buying success option out there, so if you look at it from that point of view, you can be successful with literally anything / any build in any MMO! So, the argument of being able to be successful in GW2 (or any other game for that matter) is a non argument.

Optimal or near optimal builds on the other hand: I don't know if there's any other game out there that's worse than GW2 at the moment, or if that's possible, even! I mean: GW2 has only a handful (near) optimal builds in the endgame (not even 1 in every single class!), whereas, I don't know any other MMO out there that has at least twice the amount of that, or far more common, around 10x the amount of very close to optimal builds available.

Btw: I think I see where you might be confused: builds are something different than for instance a character level or gear level, or gated content. That has nothing to do with builds. As far as I know, you have to be level 80 to get into raids in GW2 as well. It's just gated like that! But once you hit that (gear) level and can open that gate in any MMO, builds are going to matter, and really, you would be surprised how many viable builds there are in any MMO, just like there is in GW2.

So again, we can talk a lot about the viability of builds on these forums (i.e. can you be successful with a build, or not), but it's just talking about the weather, it doesn't get you anywhere and is only mildly interesting to talk about, imo. (near) Optimal builds, on the other hand, is a very painful topic here in GW2!

[Obtena.7952]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low.Except it isn't. Those other games with content tuned-up higher (relatively) than in gw2? Those are also games where balance of impact between skill and gear is shifted massively away from skill compared to gw2.

OK ... I'm not debating how skill and gear interact here compared to other games. GW2 allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with. Many other MMO's don't. Success threshold is low and this is why you can take "

40% less DPS

" builds and win. If you did that in other games, you would be crushed.

This is just not true!

What I know is true ... GW allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with, including the "40% less DPS" builds. That's what the important take away here is. maybe for you that's a non-argument because your goal is to get Anet to focus on optimal build balance. The fact is that the game philosophy of playing how you want that allows people to be successful with "40% less DPS" builds results in not needing a focus on optimal build balance.

Optimal builds, on the other hand, is a very painful topic here in GW2!

Only because players make it a topic of discussion. That is actually an unnecessary topic to make pain over since the game mechanics do NOT make optimal builds necessary for success. It's actually pretty irrelevant to worry about the balance of high performance builds in this environment. It's just baggage from other MMOs; people's perception of what they need or some misplaced idea that they don't need to learn to play differently in this game design.

[Obtena.7952]

Here is some abstract thinking everyone should try: EVERY build that you can play and be successful with ... is balanced. What is your definition of balance? How do you measure that? I can assure you ... the DPS number from hitting a golem ... is NOT a measure of balance.

[Fuchslein.8639]

But when you start something like this, you also have to take the group factor into account.After all, this is about fractals and fractals are played 99% with other people.If you run with friends, they may accept if you can the class and not die, but makes as good as zero DMG.But with strangers who just want to make their dailies quickly, such a thing is simply disrespectful in my eyes. I don't know how many times I read "But I live while everyone else dies", yes they die because you don't make any dmg and drag out the fight unnecessarily.

I personally am not someone who expects people to play meta. But I do expect you to do your part and that's not just 2-3k dmg(which I've seen a lot in my time in gw2). And that limits the build diversity already very much.

Or you just run around with the pink-glasses. Feel free to run with all the people who play all these wonderful builds you always talk about. It's your time, not mine.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"Obtena.7952" said:What I know is true ... GW allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with, including the "40% less DPS" builds. That's what the important take away here is. maybe for you that's a non-argument because your goal is to get Anet to focus on optimal build balance. The fact is that the game philosophy of playing how you want that allows people to be successful with "40% less DPS" builds results in not needing a focus on optimal build balance.

Depends on what you define as successful. Certain strategies require high amounts of dps and speed up completion time a lot. Some players want to complete all raids in one day because they dont have more time.It makes an even bigger difference in fractals where its 45min vs 1.5h daily.

Optimal builds, on the other hand, is a very painful topic here in GW2!

Only because players make it a topic of discussion. That is actually an unnecessary topic to make pain over since the game mechanics do NOT make optimal builds necessary for success. It's actually pretty irrelevant to worry about the balance of high performance builds in this environment. It's just baggage from other MMOs; people's perception of what they need or some misplaced idea that they don't need to learn to play differently in this game design.

And thats why there cant be challenging content in the game. Always balanced for the worst builds so decent ones steamroll it.

[Obtena.7952]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:What I know is true ... GW allows players to choose from a wide range of builds that they can be successful with, including the "

40% less DPS

" builds. That's what the important take away here is. maybe for you that's a non-argument because your goal is to get Anet to focus on optimal build balance. The fact is that the game philosophy of playing how you want that allows people to be successful with "

40% less DPS

" builds results in not needing a focus on optimal build balance.

Depends on what you define as successful. Certain strategies require high amounts of dps and speed up completion time a lot. Some players want to complete all raids in one day because they dont have more time.

Well, that's the thing ... 'we' don't define success. If we want to talk about how game mechanics or parameters impact on gameplay, we are talking about what you need to do for either getting loot from an activity or an achievement. How you actually do that is pretty wide open and includes a very WIDE range of DPS. If players want to impose additional restrictions on what successful means to them, like "have to be fast because no time" or "want to break a completion record"... that's not something Anet must consider in how they design the game because they can't accommodate everyone's ideas about what success means.

Optimal builds, on the other hand, is a very painful topic here in GW2!

Only because players make it a topic of discussion. That is actually an unnecessary topic to make pain over since the game mechanics do NOT make optimal builds necessary for success. It's actually pretty irrelevant to worry about the balance of high performance builds in this environment. It's just baggage from other MMOs; people's perception of what they need or some misplaced idea that they don't need to learn to play differently in this game design.

And thats why there cant be challenging content in the game. Always balanced for the worst builds so decent ones steamroll it.

Yet somehow lots of content challenges people so I think you need to reconsider that statement is not generally applicable. What does DPS output have to do with challenging? It doesn't ... Tryhards proved it years ago when they took low-DPS builds and soloed dungeons with them. No one should conclude content is balanced around 'the worst' builds because being successful in content has nothing to do with the available builds. Being successful is about knowing the encounter and knowing how your build works.