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Legendary insight & Legendary Divination(Message for developpers.


Arimus.8310

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@AgentMoore.9453 said:

@Katary.7096 said:And I doubt that the developers made raid content with the expectation that it would become one of the game's main pillars. They were likely aware that it is niche content and only serves to fill a gap in the game's assortment of content.

You're saying raids, in their entirety, were purposefully made for a small amount of players? To me, that seems
unlikely
. That's a
lot
of effort for a niche.

If you ask me, ArenaNet wanted more people to be raiding, and their explanation of strike missions was 'look guys! a ramp to help you get into raiding!!'. When that didn't work, they switched over to Dragon Response Missions and Sunqua Peak (the upper level fractal) as additional ways of trying to get people into more 'challenging end-game content'.

I think they had every expectation that far more people would raid than the amount that actually do, and they're doing all the wrong things to try and make it happen.

Anet actually made raids to be niche, and even said that participation was higher than expected and that raids were a success.

Yes without me linking any source for this im just a guy shouting at forums, some1 else feel free to link source because i dont like to use forum search with my phone.

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Anet actually made raids to be niche, and even said that participation was higher than expected and that raids were a success.

Yes without me linking any source for this im just a guy shouting at forums, some1 else feel free to link source because i dont like to use forum search with my phone.Yes, they sure said that, but there's few things you need to consider.

First, Anet is always hyperoptimistic about any of their new content. They were praising their build templates as well, if you haven't noticed. You may also not remember, that LS2 was a big success that clearly shown that Anet was fully capable of developing this game without expansion and releasing an expension-level content through LS. And it has been such a "big success" up until the very point they revealed they were working on HoT. If you look at dev statements, it would be very hard to find a part of this game that isn't a success. And yet here we are.

Second, they were sending mixed messages about that "niche" content. Sure, they were saying that it's the content for the chosen few, but at the same time they were clearly expecting most mainstream PvE players to be funneled into that content. They wanted raids to be popular, and to become the endgame for all PvE players. So, i believe the "elite" and "for the chosen few" remarks were just kind of PR speech, but not their actual desire.

Third, when they were saying that, they were still during the initial wave of popularity any relatively new content gets. Ultimately, though, that popularity didn't last, and eventually raids became more and more niche, way beyond Anet's expectations. So niche they finally realized it's hard to justify supporting them any further.

Also, it's clear that they heavily underestimated the effort required for making legendary armor set. We don't know if they originally intended more sets for different parts of the game, but they definitely had to cancel any such idea after the Envoy set as released a whole year late. The WvW and SPvP sets are without any unique skins not because "legendary with unique skin set" schtick was somehow reserved for raids, but simply because they could not devote enough resources to make more sets of comparable, legendary quality (and introducing an unique, legendary set look that would be significantly inferior to Envoy would cause probably even more pushback than those armor sets simply inheriting ascended armor look)

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@"AgentMoore.9453" said:You're saying raids, in their entirety, were purposefully made for a small amount of players? To me, that seems unlikely. That's a lot of effort for a niche.

Raids were made as the ultimate challenge, how many would be up to that challenge was anyone's guess when they launched. Keep in mind that the game always advertised as having this "challenge" for players but unfortunately the challenging content of the game proved to not be really challenging in the end.

I think they had every expectation that far more people would raid than the amount that actually do, and they're doing all the wrong things to try and make it happen.

Or rather, Raid participation exceeded their expectations and instead of following on that success they decided to send the Raid team to build 2 of the living world episodes of Season 3. And then make LOADS of design/management mistakes with Raids. The lack of rewards in the POF raids, the disastrous release cadence, the mistake of releasing the harder Raid wing before the easier ones, the complete neglect and miscommunication with the community. The first Raids were released after being tested by actual players, the community play-tested and helped developed them, then that partnership stopped. After ALL that neglect and gross mismangement, obviously participation rates plummeted, and we arrived where we are now.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Second, they were sending mixed messages about that "niche" content. Sure, they were saying that it's the content for the chosen few, but at the same time they were clearly expecting most mainstream PvE players to be funneled into that content. They wanted raids to be popular, and to become the endgame for all PvE players. So, i believe the "elite" and "for the chosen few" remarks were just kind of PR speech, but not their actual desire.

That's pure guess work on your part and in no way reflected in either the initial statement about raids, nor at any point in time. You are making this claim trying to justify your own displeasure with raids and at the same time absolutely not providing ANY facts to support this.

Raids being conceptualized as niche was there from the very start. They were literally advertised as challenging group content with the expectation that this type of structure and organization would be required. That speaks for its self.

@Astralporing.1957 said:First, Anet is always hyperoptimistic about any of their new content. They were praising their build templates as well, if you haven't noticed. You may also not remember, that LS2 was a big success that clearly shown that Anet was fully capable of developing this game without expansion and releasing an expension-level content through LS. And it has been such a "big success" up until the very point they revealed they were working on HoT. If you look at dev statements, it would be very hard to find a part of this game that isn't a success. And yet here we are.

Yes a developer praising their work, who would have guessed. Meanwhile LWS2 was followed by nearly 1 year of no content during which the studio was working on HoT and player devotion was driven by expectations, much like the current expectations for the next expansion.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Third, when they were saying that, they were still during the initial wave of popularity any relatively new content gets. Ultimately, though, that popularity didn't last, and eventually raids became more and more niche, way beyond Anet's expectations. So niche they finally realized it's hard to justify supporting them any further.

Raids were always niche. The statements made by the developers were always in praise of better results than anticipated. You can try to turn this how every you want, but just some food for thought:the current champion releases and reduced content for the Saga have been a thing for approximately 3 months, 5 months if we count the last major Living World release of Drizzlewood Coast (and that's still a minor amount of content even if players might be unhappy with the size of the Champion episodes). Meanwhile players are heavily feeling the content drought. After 3-5 months. Now imagine how niche communities feel with lack of content for YEARS.

Raids became more and more niche and lost their player base due to content drought. Much like WvW and especially Spvp have too. At this moment in time it's amazing that there is even any niche players left. If the niche communities were approaching this game like a majority of the only open world or story crowd, this game would have been dead ages ago.

Meanwhile the worst financial results were achieved right after a different period of this games development when the focus was ONLY on living world and no expansion was announced. To be honest, I find it mind-boggling that there is even a fraction of payers left who assume this game would be better off without some devotion to niche content, no matter if raids, fractals, WvW or Spvp.

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@"AgentMoore.9453" said:You're saying raids, in their entirety, were purposefully made for a small amount of players? To me, that seems unlikely. That's a lot of effort for a niche.Pretty much, yes. Think how the introduction of the "Mordrem" enemies in LWS 2 or the open world content on the release of HoT were received by the general playerbase. For both of those examples the developers ended up nerfing the content to make it more fitting for the majority of players. Given that they had this knowledge, how could they expect raid content to appeal to the general playerbase? Though if you want further clarification from me I need to know how you define "a small amount of players."If you ask me, ArenaNet wanted more people to be raiding, and their explanation of strike missions was 'look guys! a ramp to help you get into raiding!!'. When that didn't work, they switched over to Dragon Response Missions and Sunqua Peak (the upper level fractal) as additional ways of trying to get people into more 'challenging end-game content'.I agree, they wanted, and probably still want, more people to play raid content. But I wrote that I believe they expected few people to play raids, not that they wanted only a few people playing raids. Ah yes, strike missions, the side project of the Icebrood Saga for which we do not know if it is finished, discontinued or still being worked on. Did they get people to play raids? I don't know.In fairness, Sunqua Peak has a CM so it should qualify as 'challenging end-game content' and Dragon Response Missions seem to have replaced the Story Missions.I think they had every expectation that far more people would raid than the amount that actually do, and they're doing all the wrong things to try and make it happen.Well, the developers can't simply update the bulk of their playerbase to be interested in raid content, though if they had that power they would likely increase gemstore sales instead.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"AgentMoore.9453" said:You're saying raids, in their entirety, were purposefully made for a small amount of players? To me, that seems
unlikely
. That's a
lot
of effort for a niche.

Raids were made as the ultimate challenge, how many would be up to that challenge was anyone's guess when they launched. Keep in mind that the game always advertised as having this "challenge" for players but unfortunately the challenging content of the game proved to not be really challenging in the end.

I think they had every expectation that far more people would raid than the amount that actually do, and they're doing all the wrong things to try and make it happen.

Or rather, Raid participation exceeded their expectations and instead of following on that success they decided to send the Raid team to build 2 of the living world episodes of Season 3. And then make LOADS of design/management mistakes with Raids. The lack of rewards in the POF raids, the disastrous release cadence, the mistake of releasing the harder Raid wing before the easier ones, the complete neglect and miscommunication with the community. The first Raids were released after being tested by actual players, the community play-tested and helped developed them, then that partnership stopped. After ALL that neglect and gross mismangement, obviously participation rates plummeted, and we arrived where we are now.

Oh you mean the first Raids was tested by a top guild , internally .And when the Raid was released , that guild , having played it /tested all the time /already new the strategies , came up with the 1st world kill and on the twitter , they typed "it was easy:P" ?

I prefer the GW1 version , where top Korean PvP teams , where saying Ezzy what to buff , got booted at GW2 development and cried about anti-meele game at GW2 launchAhh that War Machine Warrior... :)

edit:KP and LI , should come up from other sources , just like Raids must have the same rewards at the latest Open Areas(which after a while , they are no longer profitable because of the over farming)

Or DRM , should be improved to scale up to 15 people (scalable raids) , so there won't be a need for linking KP/gear

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@"Luci.7018" said:Oh you mean the first Raids was tested by a top guild , internally .

No. They were tested by multiple guilds so as to have a better quality product in the end. The guilds that got banned from breaking the rules weren't involved in future raid development anyway. Are you saying every single one of them broke the rules so during later POF Raids there was no guild involvelment? I highly doubt so, there were bad apples, but that wasn't all of them. And even if a guild said "easy" after having experience with raids during development, who cares?

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@"AgentMoore.9453" said:I happen to think adding different modes of difficulty to raids (with scaling rewards) would be a much more sensible way to resolve the whole thing. Zoop through your legendary journey quickly on harder modes, or take your time on more relenting modes - I wager you'd see less threads like this one.No.The threads would just be replaced with:"ANET HATES CASUALS... EASY MODE TOO HARD"or"WHY ARE EASY MODE REWARDS SO LOW?...WHY DOESN'T ANET LIKE IT'S CUSTOMERS??"

The fact is we got "Easy Mode" raiding via Strikes and the low-effort forum warriors jumped on here and started dozens of threads filled with false rhetoric in order to control the narrative and dissuade Arenanet from continuing to develop the content.

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