Disappointing Dragonhunter

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

Heya! I'm an overall new player to the game; I've played GW2 on and off for a while, never really could get into it - I've been a Game Master for Blizzard, I've put over 4,000 hours into Archeage, and I've probably burnt more hours into MMOs than I've spent on any other game combined. Actually, if you include Runescape in those hours, I've probably spent around 10% of my total life playing MMOs. Because of this, I'm pretty well acquainted with many aspects of most MMOs. While I'm not a GW2 Veteran, I feel like I can safely vent at this point.

I love the idea of longbows; favorite weapon by far in any game I've played. Archery has always been my draw, right behind healing - in fact, my main class in Archeage was Ranger, which was devoted to stealth, bows, and healing. So when I first started playing GW2 within the past few months, I scoured over the wiki looking for something to fill that niche. And I thought I had it, a few choices at least. At first, I wanted to try Druid Hunter - but I didn't like the playstyle of it, and I've never been a fan of pets. So after unlocking Druid, I tried it out for a bit, and slowly lost interest to the point of starting a Guardian. Which I did, so that I can grind out to 80 quickly and unlock Dragonhunter. On paper, reading the build over (without trying to spoil it through forums) was a big draw to me - massive healing potential, Aegis procing, wings - I adore wings - it had everything I wanted, without a pet mechanic.

But, when I reached level 80, dumped a ton of points into Dragonhunter and equipped my longbow - I found myself kinda at a loss. I was already so used to massive DPS from Greatsword, support from Staves or consistent ranged DPS from scepters, that equipping the longbow and firing on my first target... with nearly all points in power, mind you, with the right procs... it was kinda sickening seeing how low the PvE damage was all around. The wings were pretty, the improved Virtues and traps were cool - but literally none of it, in the end, "jived" with Longbows at all (except perhaps the upgraded Shield of Courage, which seemed perfect for a Ranged skillset). It was simply a massive, and I mean outright massive DPS loss to equip a longbow, no matter if it was ST or AoE. In PvE, it was outright nerfing my damage into the ground. I had stupidly tossed my soulbound GS thinking I had it, my first real weapon. And now I suddenly found myself dealing half the damage for none of the reward.

I thought maybe I was built wrong. I finally decided to break my tradition and start digging the forums to see if I was simply choosing all wrong - that perhaps I just needed to focus more points into Power, more crit rate, more crit damage - but no. It turns out that Longbows were so absolutely abysmal on Dragonhunter that it was considered completely unviable to use. Unless if you wanted to do PvP, then you had some strength - but even then, only with True Shot.

Needless to say, I felt that I had completely and utterly wasted my time, and that I had to move on to my third option, which is Berserker Warrior with a Longbow and Torch secondary. Which is basically the only PvE viable LB build that wasn't Hunter. And it would be cutting out healing entirely, which I would miss immensely. Already trying it out, and I just miss Guardian even more.

I should have read the wiki a little more closely. I know many other people feel this way, too, from what I've read. I hope this little outcry resonates with some of you as it did with me - how you could be so ready to unlock and try an exciting thing, only to find that it's absolutely abysmal in the content you enjoy. In the next post, I'll cover the proposed class fantasy, what I saw when I as an outsider looking in - and then I'll give a list of changes I feel would do well for the Longbow on Dragonhunter. Do note that I'd love your input on all of it, and I'm not saying my word is final - but if you feel you have a change of your own, that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading so far.

Nephalem.8921 · February 12, 2021

Why did you play longbow druid instead of longbow soulbeast? soulbeast also doesnt have a pet. Longbows are damage oriented weapons so they have very little support by default.Longbow dh was always a meme though. It had some uses in pvp but the last balance patch nerfed it into the ground. Anet has like 2 persons working on game balance who are busy with the new expansion specs currently. the management in this game was always questionable. Game balance was always low priority. entire classes were unusable in some gamemodes for sometimes years.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

@Nephalem.8921 said:Why did you play longbow druid instead of longbow soulbeast? soulbeast also doesnt have a pet. Longbows are damage oriented weapons so they have very little support by default.Longbow dh was always a meme though. It had some uses in pvp but the last balance patch nerfed it into the ground. Anet has like 2 persons working on game balance who are busy with the new expansion specs currently. the management in this game was always questionable. Game balance was always low priority. entire classes were unusable in some gamemodes for sometimes years.

Because I also enjoy support when I can - which may be counter intuitive (forcing you to split power/healing power) but it's my playstyle. I actually didn't expect a post this quick. Thanks.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

When I saw Dragonhunter for the first time, the class fantasy it struck me was something akin to a Valkyrie - a winged protector that used a bow to strike from a range. But in truth, LB DH is more like... well, taking on the skills of an NPC. All of that attacks on LB are exceptionally long casts, except deflecting shot. Which was the shortest, and somehow the most useful albeit completely unguided attack that basically serves as your only means of decent damage outside of chosen abilities (like Spirit Weapons, etc). It really made no sense to me why it was set up to be free-aim - in PvP, unless if you're super hyper aware in a 2v1 and knew someone was about to launch a ranged attack at you, you'd have very little chance of actually deflecting a ranged attack with this. In fact, you'd more often than not just outright miss. It's poorly thought out, but let's get back in order.

Puncture Shot is quite possibly the worst designed basic attack in the game. It's slow - okay, that's fine. Is the damage good to compensate? No. Actually, it's pretty abysmal. Surely it can hit multiple targets? Nope - two. Two targets. And only if they're within range, and in a certain position. With average power, it deals around 4%-6% overall damage to the enemy, which is an average of 20 seconds of basic attack to kill (1 arrow a second). On a normal enemy, mind you - not anything above that. It has no attack chains - each arrow is the same effect, therefore consistent, like the scepter.

True Shot on paper looks amazing. Right? Not.... really. It's pretty terrible overall. It's a 1 second root - you're entirely immobile while casting this attack, its damage isn't great (something around... 12%-15%? IIRC) and it can "pierce" targets. Or, more often than not, it will hit 1 target, then proceed to miss three other mobs to the side of it. Sure, it has higher range - but it's completely irrelevant. It's only a good toss up in PvP, where people expect you to charge in with a GS. A side note - Staff on Guardian has less hardcast abilities than Longbow. And the staff is a Support weapon. With better damage/AoE, and healing potential. Why.

Deflecting Shot is good because it's the only ability that consistently does damage to a large group of mobs, and provides pretty much the only form of Crowd Control that DH LB has. Because Hunter's Ward is the absolute worst ability I have ever seen. But that's another topic. It's very fast casting - it'll blaze through a chunk of enemies, it'll blow them down, give you some breathing room... and it'll completely spread them all apart, removing AoE potential. Sigh. Oh, and for some reason, you have to manually target this. The basic "always center attacks on my target" option in the configuration menu does nothing, and if you're not entirely aware of your mouse, you're going to shoot it directly to the right and miss all of the mobs.

Symbol of Energy is such an odd symbol. It's not instant cast - it has a projectile tied to it, unlike all other symbols that appear instantly where you put them. It does decent damage, but unless you're dropping it on an entirely immobile enemy or something, they'll walk right past it (unless if you fire at your feet, which kind of defeats the purpose). And it does a lot of condition damage, which is splitting up the damage of your attacks quite a bit (power for Puncture Shot, True Shot, Deflecting Shot, and Hunter's Ward - and Symbol of Energy scales mostly off of Condition Damage). It does grant Endurance - which means firing at your feet IS viable... I guess.

Hunter's Ward is trash. Nearly a 4 second root, pretty much no damage while it's firing, and only the last blast actually applies any effects. This makes no sense. On top of that, it's AoE - and while the disable tied to it is strong, it just takes too long to be effective, and is therefore wasted potential.

DH LB is a joke. Let me propose some changes that keep it within the same area while being more effective.

Diak Atoli.2085 · February 12, 2021

Druids in Guild Wars 2 are the Ranger's support spec. If you wanted damage, either core or Soulbeast would've been much better. Soulbeast damage modifiers, in particular, makes Longbow's Rapid Fire and Barrage very potent skills.

As well, core and Soulbeast have the ability to support allies with stances and spirits, though to a more limited degree.

Eekasqueak.7850 · February 12, 2021

Yeah DH felt super disappointing for me as well so I ended up just switching to firebrand.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

@Diak Atoli.2085 said:Druids in Guild Wars 2 are the Ranger's support spec. If you wanted damage, either core or Soulbeast would've been much better. Soulbeast damage modifiers, in particular, makes Longbow's Rapid Fire and Barrage very potent skills.
As well, core and Soulbeast have the ability to support allies with stances and spirits, though to a more limited degree.

I'm kinda over it now, I'm afraid - I enjoy baseline Guardian more than Hunter overall. Thank you for the comments, it means a lot.

Sylvyn.4750 · February 12, 2021

Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

@Sylvyn.4750 said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Not quite the point of this thread; I understand there are other classes, but I'd like to talk more in-depth about possible changes to Dragonhunter Guardian. It has so much potential in its unlock, but it's wasted.

Westenev.5289 · February 12, 2021

Yeah, this game has ALOT of noob traps. People come into this game with expectations of being an archer/sniper, a longbow druid, a artillery mage elementalist or a hit and run speedtank...

... unfortunately this games PvE is kinda balanced heavily towards melee stacking in a 360 range circle to receive group buffs like might, fury, healing, quickness and alacrity. If your build can't do that, you're playing super casual at best or dragging the team down at worst.

I think Anet needs to redesign PvE combat a little so ranged weapons aren't so punishing to play at range, or to play in general as a main weapon in group content. This also includes healing and buffs, most of which you need to be practically holding hands to apply.

Sobx.1758 · February 12, 2021

@Bastrii.3047 said:
@"Sylvyn.4750" said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Not quite the point of this thread; I understand there are other classes, but I'd like to talk more in-depth about possible changes to Dragonhunter Guardian. It has so much potential in its unlock, but it's wasted.

It's not really wasted potential imo. It's just still guardian's espec. If you were looking for ranger build, you could play ranger. If you disliked pet... pretty much pick soulbeast and merge with the pet. Staying merged 24/7 won't be absolutely optimal, but that's probably what you were looking for. I expect your "set of changes" to be pretty much an attempt to turn dragonhunter into [merged pet]soulbeast. But that's not exactly the point of having different classes with different playstyles and capabilities. You're free to have your fantasies about the class, obviously. The main mistake you probably made was an expectation that you know and understand the game just because you've played other mmorpgs before.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Bastrii.3047 said:
@"Sylvyn.4750" said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Not quite the point of this thread; I understand there are other classes, but I'd like to talk more in-depth about possible changes to Dragonhunter Guardian. It has so much potential in its unlock, but it's wasted.

It's not really wasted potential imo. It's just still

guardian's

espec. If you were looking for ranger build, you could play ranger. If you disliked pet... pretty much pick soulbeast and merge with the pet. Staying merged 24/7 won't be absolutely optimal, but that's probably what you were looking for. I expect your "set of changes" to be pretty much an attempt to turn dragonhunter into [merged pet]soulbeast. But that's not exactly the point of having different classes with different playstyles and capabilities. You're free to have your fantasies about the classes, obviously.

I already looked over Soulbeast, and none of it really interests me. It feels much too close to Feral Druid from WoW, and I know a lot of people are trying really hard to push "just do spirit beast lmao" but I don't find it interesting or a big draw for me. I'm sorry. And I like Guardian baseline 10x more than I enjoy Hunter baseline, but again - people are glazing over it because Hunter has the better bow game.

Let's say you wanted to ride your bike, but the rear tire is flat. You're trying to get help to fix the tire, but instead, everyone else is saying "just ride the kick scooter instead", "the bike is bad, kick scooter is better", "stop complaining about the tire, you have a kick scooter".

This is the conversation everyone is trying to force right now. I do not nor will I ever play Soulbeast Hunter. I'm sorry. End of that discussion, as it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

Puncture Shot should no longer target multiple targets. Increase the attack speed. Instead, LB1 should deal AoE burning condition when striking burning targets. This gives it a lot more synergy with Spear of Justice, and will benefit other changes.
True Shot should no longer root you, but slow you down while charging. It no longer pierces enemies, just strikes the primary target. It will instead always crit on burning targets, and burning targets within range of the primary target will also take a portion of the damage inflicted.
Deflecting Shot needs a final rework. Instead of deleting or blocking projectiles, it creates a Shield of Courage effect in front of your position for 2 seconds (not bound to you), essentially giving you cover from ranged attacks. It's no longer a free aim ability, and will always seek towards your target quickly like an arrow should. It uses the old piercing effect of True Shot; enemies that are pierced are knocked back towards the main Target's position, grouping them effectively instead of knocking them out of the way. This gets rid of the RNG around this ability; knocking targets all around and not really grouping them.
Symbol of Energy fires a much quicker arrow at the target, not at the position of your mouse. If it hits, the main target explodes and gains the Burning Condition, creating the symbol at the target's position. Otherwise acts as normal.
The big change; Hunter's Ward. 1 second cast time to initiate the spell; in a large target area, it begins to rain arrows as per usual over the course of 2 seconds. During this time, it deals four ticks of damage, with the third tick inflicting burning. The fourth tick explodes, inflicting barriers on the enemies as per usual. This gives you two seconds to group enemies together with your abilities, in an attempt to hold them down and control the battle. Like a Dragon Hunter would do.
Spear of Justice Change: Spear of Justice no longer pierces; the main target instead becomes the focal point, and is essentially marked. Enemies around the target receive pulses of burning each second for a small amount of condition damage. When Hunter's Verdict is cast, all targets within range are pulled into a pile together, and knocked down for 1 second. Guardian already has abilities to move to the target; they don't need an ability to move the target to them. Instead, a control ability like this would work wonders, and the cooldowns are already set up for it.

I feel like a control-based Guardian fits the fantasy well for two reasons; it's relevant to tanking by CC, and it can further support allies by keeping enemies more condensed. It also defines its roll as a control weapon, while Greatsword can be defined as a damaging weapon, Staff a support weapon, and Sword and Board a defensive set. It expands the toolkit of the espec dramatically while also putting a focus on benefitting off of a proc Guardians get for free, nearly all the time - and granted already in bulk by other movesets.

Sobx.1758 · February 12, 2021

@Bastrii.3047 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Bastrii.3047 said:
@"Sylvyn.4750" said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Not quite the point of this thread; I understand there are other classes, but I'd like to talk more in-depth about possible changes to Dragonhunter Guardian. It has so much potential in its unlock, but it's wasted.

It's not really wasted potential imo. It's just still

guardian's

espec. If you were looking for ranger build, you could play ranger. If you disliked pet... pretty much pick soulbeast and merge with the pet. Staying merged 24/7 won't be absolutely optimal, but that's probably what you were looking for. I expect your "set of changes" to be pretty much an attempt to turn dragonhunter into [merged pet]soulbeast. But that's not exactly the point of having different classes with different playstyles and capabilities. You're free to have your fantasies about the classes, obviously.

I already looked over Soulbeast, and none of it really interests me. It feels much too close to Feral Druid from WoW, and I know a lot of people are trying really hard to push "just do spirit beast lmao" but I don't find it interesting or a big draw for me. I'm sorry. And I like Guardian baseline 10x more than I enjoy Hunter baseline, but again - people are glazing over it because Hunter has the better bow game.

I think it would be more helpful all around if you stopped bringing up WoW or whatever else and instead of saying "it's too close to this class from that game", you'd actually start explaining what you like/dislike about the class/build/spec.

Let's say you wanted to ride your bike, but the rear tire is flat. You're trying to get help to fix the tire, but instead, everyone else is saying "just ride the kick scooter instead", "the bike is bad, kick scooter is better", "stop complaining about the tire, you have a kick scooter".

Sorry, but this is yet another comparison that has nothing to do with gw2 or your personal preferences related to classes and gameplay patterns. Stop operating in unrelated comparisons to real life and other games, because it seems a bit pointless... I'm not trying to tell you what you want to play or what you're allowed to like/dislike. But what you've described is pretty vague and filled with "I played wow, so I knew what to expect from gw2" (not a direct quote, just a general feeling I got from reading your initial posts :p). I think that's a pretty misguided way to get into a new (for you) game.

This is the conversation everyone is trying to force right now. I do not nor will I ever play Soulbeast Hunter. I'm sorry. End of that discussion, as it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Nobody is trying to force anything on you. You came and said you normally enjoyed ranger and wanted some longbow gameplay with solid dps, so people respond accordingly. Pretty sure that's all there is to it.

ElijahFitzroy.5762 · February 12, 2021

@Bastrii.3047 said:
@Sylvyn.4750 said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...

Not quite the point of this thread; I understand there are other classes, but I'd like to talk more in-depth about possible changes to Dragonhunter Guardian. It has so much potential in its unlock, but it's wasted.

Hello Bastrii,

Unfortunately the first thing you did was compare GW2 to other MMOs like WoW. This game is specifically meant to not be like those games. Secondly, unfortunately GW2 is very unbalanced like others have mentioned before me.

To get to the root of the problem you are trying to make dragon hunter something it is not. It is nothing even close to a healing build. Support yes but healing no. Another thing to keep in mind is that no build is going to be dps/healer and be able to kill things in one shot. Dps can but you give up the healing for that power and vice versa.

The other thing to keep in mind is where you are using this build/class. Open world PvE, raid/fractal PvE, WvW and PvP. There are different builds for all playing platforms but remember a mixed build won’t work in anywhere but open world PvE and you have to realize that by having a mixed build you are basically making a survivability build. One in which you can kill things but it will take longer to do so.

I am a main ranger but I have played all content and classes. The dragon hunter in my experience is strictly survival or dps. It really isn’t meant to be a healer. If you are looking for healing then look to druid, firebrand,tempest and scourge. If you want heals for guardian then I would go firebrand since there is major healing but do not expect it to be dps if you go the healing route. You can certainly make it a happy medium but remember it will take longer to kill things.

ANet I highly doubt will change the dragon hunter to be what you want since it’s other elite specialization covers healing. While vanilla guardian covers boon support/dps and dragon hunter used to cover dps. I understand wanting everything in the esthetics of the build you like but when something else in that same class covers healing it is unlikely they will change it to make two elite specializations to cover the exact same use.

The best thing for you to ask would be to free the weapons from elite specializations and allow vanilla, and elite specializations to use the elite specialization weapons. Then you could create a guardian with long bow or a firebrand with long bow and have it closer to the healing ranged attack you want.

If you want help finding another class or finding a decent survival build or any build feel free to message me and I’ll give you some pointers and links to builds.

All I ask is you don’t give up on the game and try some other classes or builds and to keep your mind open to the different possibilities even if they might not hit every note you want but might be able to come close.

Dawdler.8521 · February 12, 2021

TL;DR you had a preconcieved notion of what the longbow would play like (of course it will be great on the class you like in the game mode you like with the high dps you want!) and it turns out its like every other weapon in GW2, just another tool for your build.

Fixing that rear tire wont do much if you dont want to pump it.

Bastrii.3047 · February 12, 2021

@ElijahFitzroy.5762 said:
@Bastrii.3047 said:
@"Sylvyn.4750" said:Boonbeast Ranger is kinda fun...absorb the pet to get special skills and boons (I use owl), use a warhorn for more boons as well as from some of your utilities, swap to longbow for pew pew...