lich form auto still at 2.34

[Stand The Wall.6987]

get off your ass and bring this down with everything else (competitive only).

[Grand Marshal.4098]

They recently changed the tool tip for Lich Form. Don't expect them to touch upon a skill/trait so soon after such a big change. EoD balance patch will be nuts!

[Noah Salazar.5430]

blind, weeknes, duble cc, missile block/reflect, block, transfortm to moa?

but i agree, dmg schold be reduced by 2-5% or auto incrested to 1s, so ppl at silver/gold will not be punished too hard for lack of any of that

[Nimon.7840]

but the thing is. if you drastically decrease lich dmg. the skill will become utter useless. which will make any power necro build pretty bad. sure it can be nerfed. but i think you have to give compensation as necros power damage is already pretty low unless you play reaper, or you have to be really careful with the numbers.

no?

[Axl.8924]

I saw a post like this guy asking for nerfing not only sustain but of dmg as well for reaper.

Might as well just delete nec while your at it since at that point what will they be good for in SPVP?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

q fuckin q. necro will be fine with a nerfed lich, grow up. this high of a coefficient exists no where else, it has no reason to exist on lich. if necro is dead for you after a lich auto nerf, you were carried by lich and should be just fine finding the next fotm build.

[Axl.8924]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:q kitten q. necro will be fine with a nerfed lich, grow up. this high of a coefficient exists no where else, it has no reason to exist on lich. if necro is dead for you after a lich auto nerf, you were carried by lich and should be just fine finding the next fotm build.

Saying QQ as if a child is crying because they can't have chocolate shows bias. There are ramifications to changes.

What if for instance they decided to nerf ele more cause of weaver/Tempest and core got nerfed into the ground?

I really dislike comments like these which don't put any thought into a actual argument of balance about classes.

Personally i would delete the lich form and just have some abilities integrated elsewhere like core shroud and change it and put the power into core shroud in some way to keep core desireable and dangerous.

[KrHome.1920]

Lich:

• slow classes (necro, guard) can facetank it in shroud or with blocks up
• mobile classes (every other class) can disengage for the uptime
• ranged builds (deadeye, lb ranger) can generally laugh at it

The earlier you use it, the easier your encounter will avoid it (because defensive sills are off cooldown) and the later you use it, the more vulnerable you are into it (casting lich on low health is suicide).

Lich form needs a rework... not because it is OP, but because it is a skill that either wins fights that would have been won anyway or that kills the caster. And all that uselessness has a 120s cooldown.

[Shroud.2307]

I'm very conflicted with Lich because I agree with those that say it's too strong, but at the same time I feel like it deserves to be.

Necro needs some buffs on other elites before Lich can be nerfed again IMO. Although they're all strong in their own right, none are as reliable as Lich.-

"Chilled to the Bone!" has a long cast time even with Quickness, coupled with a very obvious tell.Plaguelands is a stationary AOE again with a lengthy cast time, very long recharge, and that isn't particularly lethal until a few ticks in.Flesh Golem is unreliable at best and easily killed without Death Magic (even with, it isn't incredibly durable).And Ghastly Breach is again like Plaguelands in that it is stationary, although it benefits from a much lower recharge and more immediate effects.

Lich on the other hand, you transform and blast people with damage. Although there are many ways to negate it, it is much more reliable than other elites in that it isn't stationary or reliant on AI, and the damage is immediate. It also has a kit that provides it with more versatility than fire and forget.

I think the nerfs should instead be directed at other skills and functionality.Lich's Gaze should have the ammo cost removed, the recharge fixed at 5 seconds, and instead should fire an attack in multiple directions. As is it is too easy to spam it to remove Blind, which should be a counter to Lich.Stability could also be removed since it only grants one stack anyway, and should instead grant pulsing Retaliation during and Swiftness on ending.

Lich is already very easy to counter, but it is also dependent on whether or not you have the resources to do so. If you're in an open area and don't have any mobility available, you're pretty much toast. You could argue "well then the Necro played well and deserves to be rewarded", but not necessarily. It's a bit like saying a Ranger deserves to be rewarded for using Rapid Fire. It has plenty of counters but some situations are so favorable that it isn't about how well they play.

Counters to Lich should be more reliable not necessarily more abundant.

Why I think Lich deserves to do as much damage as it does- it's slow and vulnerable. It fits the theme of Necro having poor scaling defenses but having a devastating amount of offense to make up for that. You're taking a risk transforming because you're making yourself a giant beacon as well as removing your Shroud and any mobility you might have slotted (Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm, Sand Swell, Death's Charge) in exchange for consistent high damage. If it became easier to Blind or CC the Lich while still being a game changing Elite, it would require more intelligent usage while still having high reward for proper game play.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:this high of a coefficient exists no where else

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photonic_Blasting_Module5.0

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tidal_Wave4.6

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket2.25

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault2.25

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gun_Flame2.2

EDITAlso, I'd like to cite Rampage."Damage reduction has been increased from 25% to 50%."90 second recharge by the way. Also grants mobility which Lich Form does not. Has multiple sources of CC and on auto attacks of which Lich has only one. And similarly high damage, granted not as high and also at the cost of being melee.I understand it's unfair to compare skills across professions, but I've always found the disparity between these two elites to be a bit strange.

Also I now realize that some of the above coefficients are different in PvP/WvW, but I stand by what I'd said in my previous comment. High coefficient or not, I feel it deserves to have it perhaps at the cost of some defensive nerfs if ANet ever gets around to changing it.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Shroud.2307 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tidal_Wave

4.6You do understand that Tidal wave is a underwater skill? No need to spend resource on it if there is no underwater combat :P (In PvP at least) although there is hardly any in WvW too

[Axl.8924]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Shroud.2307 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tidal_Wave

4.6You do understand that Tidal wave is a underwater skill? No need to spend resource on it if there is no underwater combat :P (In PvP at least) although there is hardly any in WvW too

Thats not the point though, point is: The attack is slow and nec is also really slow and vulnerable in lich mode. so nerfing dmg and no reward and create issues with core and the elite spec.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@KrHome.1920 said:Lich form needs a rework... not because it is OP, but because it is a skill that either wins fights that would have been won anyway or that kills the caster. And all that uselessness has a 120s cooldown.

wrong. it fundamentally shifts the tables of any fight because the auto does 7k unbuffed to light armor, and its fairly easy to get quickness and a good amount of might on necro.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Shroud.2307 said:snips

none of those are auto attacks on a class that can self buff with might and quickness. your entire argument is moot.

[Shroud.2307]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:snips

none of those are auto attacks on a class that can self buff with might and quickness. your entire argument is moot.

Yes none of those are elite skills either meaning they don't have 120 seconds of down time. But it's nice to see you casually ignored all the other points I made in the other comment.

Again, I do think Lich is pretty stupid as is. But if we're just going to cry for nerfs because something does a lot of damage easily, there are a lot of other things that fit the bill.

How about we start with this one? Taken just a month ago.

[The Boz.2038]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Shroud.2307 said:snips

none of those are auto attacks on a class that can self buff with might and quickness. your entire argument is moot.

Lich Form isn't an autoattack. Leave.

[Dadnir.5038]

Still hope that ANet will get rid of Lich form at one point or another. I mean, Plagueform was hundred time more pleasant to play than Lich form, why did they get rid of the nice little bleeding cloud while they kept this big clumsy ugly thing that Lich form is?

Reducing the AA damage wouldn't break the game for the necromancer but at the same time it wouldn't fix the fact that Lich form exist. Can't we just have a nice skill similar to spectral armor instead?

[Axl.8924]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Still hope that ANet will get rid of Lich form at one point or another. I mean, Plagueform was hundred time more pleasant to play than Lich form, why did they get rid of the nice little bleeding cloud while they kept this big clumsy ugly thing that Lich form is?

Reducing the AA damage wouldn't break the game for the necromancer but at the same time it wouldn't fix the fact that Lich form exist. Can't we just have a nice skill similar to spectral armor instead?

My issue is with lazy wishes.

If lich which is slow easy to counter gets its damage deleted, it might as well be deleted as well. In my opinion nec already has plenty of counters in core that are exploitable.

What bothers me, is the possibility after this people won't be done and decide reaper needs nerfed hard in 1 then have that gutted then blood magic again until nec is completely decimated with nerfs. Where will it end? especially when absolute balance is a fantasy, it can never happen. Only way to have perfect balance is to have stick figured with the same attack same weaknesses.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Axl.8924 said:Where will it end?

I can easily answer this question: It will never end. Modern people cannot be satisfied, it's in our nature.That said, in the case of Lich form, I'd rather have a simple elite skill than the current transformation which is currently abused for it's AA gimmick. It would just be healthier for the necromancer.

[Black Storm.6974]

Lich Form.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Shroud.2307 said:Yes none of those are elite skills either meaning they don't have 120 seconds of down time. But it's nice to see you casually ignored all the other points I made in the other comment.

Again, I do think Lich is pretty stupid as is. But if we're just going to cry for nerfs because something does a lot of damage easily, there are a lot of other things that fit the bill.

the only skills you mentioned that are worth talking about are vault and gun flame. while both are low cd they both have very obvious animations. showing their coefficients is pretty funny when you take into account that they are similar to lich form but like i've mentioned repeatedly lich form is doing that on an auto attack. why do you think its ok to take away half of someones health with a 1200 range auto attack? i mentioned quickness before, but if reaper they also have that shout which gives them up to i think its 10 uses of unblockable hits, which negates most of the counter play. everything you mentioned has counter play, lich form has significantly less. the cd is IRRELEVANT when you consider it can delete a team in pvp. every other team fight, if they can't counter it (and like i said there are ways to ensure this, having a half competent support on your team is another chuck of counter play gone) then the other team wipes and the match is snowballed. how is that ok? why is lich form granted immunity to the megapatch where most everything else similar in nature was nerfed in damage?

[KrHome.1920]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the cd is IRRELEVANT when you consider it can delete a team in pvp.It can't.

Seriously: It can't, unless you suck at the game to an incredible extent!

snowballedA necro goes lich, I press CTRL+T and the snowball begins for my (!) team, because the lich necro is dead in 2 seconds and the most dangerous team fighter in the opposing team is gone.

[Shroud.2307]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:Yes none of those are elite skills either meaning they don't have 120 seconds of down time. But it's nice to see you casually ignored all the other points I made in the other comment.

Again, I do think Lich is pretty stupid as is. But if we're just going to cry for nerfs because something does a lot of damage easily, there are a lot of other things that fit the bill.

the only skills you mentioned that are worth talking about are vault and gun flame. while both are low cd they both have very obvious animations. showing their coefficients is pretty funny when you take into account that they are similar to lich form but like i've mentioned repeatedly lich form is doing that on an auto attack. why do you think its ok to take away half of someones health with a 1200 range auto attack? i mentioned quickness before, but if reaper they also have that shout which gives them up to i think its 10 uses of unblockable hits, which negates most of the counter play. everything you mentioned has counter play, lich form has significantly less. the cd is IRRELEVANT when you consider it can delete a team in pvp. every other team fight, if they can't counter it (and like i said there are ways to ensure this, having a half competent support on your team is another chuck of counter play gone) then the other team wipes and the match is snowballed. how is that ok? why is lich form granted immunity to the megapatch where most everything else similar in nature was nerfed in damage?

I already wrote ways I think it could be changed to have more counter play.

The damage isn't necessarily "okay", but considering the options there are for dealing with it, that it has a high cooldown, and a very short duration, I don't think it's as bad as you or some others feel.Again, I don't necessarily disagree that the damage is too high, but I also don't think it's the thing that should be nerfed if any changes are to be made. See my initial comment for more thoughts if you missed it.

All I know for certain is that I don't only play Necro, and no matter what else I'm playing at the time, Lich is rarely a problem in an encounter. There are enough ways to deal with it that the only time it's scary is if I'm already stacked on cooldowns and have nothing to hide behind. But I mean in that situation, pretty much anything high damage is going to finish me anyway.