Does anyone saw that amazing EoD Engineer concept spec on reddit?

[hugo.4705]

Spec made by TPenny5071, check it out. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/lkt9e5/eod_elite_speculation_4_engineer/The spec name is "Mechanist" I did think about a spec named identically but mine was more on electricity and gadgets using shortbow.

The artwork is amazing and I'm very stunned by the details, skills and thoughts put into it. I think it would work very well as the next elite spec.In the trailer of EoD, you have the aetherblade flag; and I'm thinking, why not making a spec based on them? If you have good memories, during LS1, many strong elites and champions aetherblade used graphically impressing attacks, you can find some remnants in twilight arbor, with a boss using mechanical/electrical rotating axes aoes attack. But they used to make a network of electical wires on ground, stomping and shaking the ground, having a force field taking all the damage to throw them back with a lightning bolt and so on. Without to forget that many twisted watchworks were sent along the aetherblades during the event happening at queen jubilee and assaults.

I will argue that Holosmith is also, a LS1 based spec, Scarlet prime hologram used chain prime light beam, and she did used holosmith like skills but with her rifle instead of a sword. But let's return to that spec topic:

Many can argue "Oh nu another minions specs go away!". I disagree, I prefer that spec concept of having clockwork/steam minions than having glyphs, spells, attacking with a dagger or a greatsword... Shortbow could be a thing with modified arrows making electrical fields, exploding and so on, but I kinda think those are covered by the core kits. This spec also have a cool mechanic of a suit you can control, and gathering cogs to build machines. About the weapons skills, it basically zapping enemies to turn them against each other, having lightning chain attack and stealthing.Here I think mace may be a better weapon by scepter but who knows.

What I just love, is the spec icon and name. It is very fitting to me. What are your opinions? To me it is a plausible and cool essay/concept.One of the big con to me is the damage, maybe too low compared to Holosmith or Scrapper.

[bambi.6214]

I hate it:

1. Scrapper already is heavily steampunk-themed.
2. Oh nu another minions specs go away
3. Even ANet admitted minions are dumb and reworked Scrapper, thankfully so.
4. "hop into a golem" is basically a worse version of Holosmith
5. If I understand correctly, this spec relies on picking something up from the ground? Well I would like to remind you this also is a mechanic that already exists and nobody uses - on revanent (most people are not even aware it's there...) and engi (again thankfully, on engi it is present only on one trait and F5 on core, situational at best) - also, was on medkit, nobody used it, medkit got reworked, now it's meta for support engi.
6. Another power spec on engi, it would add lots of variety to all engi builds...

This spec has literally everything I would like NOT to see added to the game

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@"Samug.6512" said:I hate it:

1. Scrapper already is heavily steampunk-themed.
2. Oh nu another minions specs go away
3. Even ANet admitted minions are dumb and reworked Scrapper, thankfully so.
4. "hop into a golem" is basically a worse version of Holosmith
5. If I understand correctly, this spec relies on picking something up from the ground? Well I would like to remind you this also is a mechanic that already exists and nobody uses - on revanent (most people are not even aware it's there...) and engi (again thankfully, on engi it is present only on one trait and F5 on core, situational at best) - also, was on medkit, nobody used it, medkit got reworked, now it's meta for support engi.
6. Another power spec on engi, it would add lots of variety to all engi builds...

This spec has literally everything I would like NOT to see added to the game

I don't disagree, but it's commendable that they went this far to present this idea. Very well made and leagues superior to your basic "here is my espec theory" thread. Very nice work from them. Doesn't matter if they propose something good, I wish we see more people from the community go creative like this. For example I wouldn't want a monk warrior. Too passive. I want a duelist warrior, but still good presentation.

[Kodama.6453]

Have to commend the effort put into this concept, but in the end I have to agree with Samug that I definitely do not want this elite spec to happen.

Thematic: Thematically, this spec is just repeating what was already done with scrapper, focusing on constructing mechanical minions. In general, thematically this just feels like a different take on the scrapper, even the "parts" mechanic could be represented with "scrap" instead and actually was even suggested many times as a mechanic for scrapper before it got it's big rework. Engineer has a wide array of thematics and since the "mechanist" is already explored, I would personally enjoy more to look into the chemical aspects of engineering next.

Gameplay: The gameplay mostly reads like another bruiser spec and once again, that is scrapper already. What engineer needs is: a proper support elite spec and condition damage. So basically something that fills the same niche like scourge for the necromancer. This spec here does basically everything, but just very little.... It has some conditions, some power damage, some healing, some boons, but it doesn't really excel at anything.

[tyrellian.3706]

The author's clearly put a lot of work into the artwork and feel of the class - but I can't support it as an elite spec. It's got a lot of issues - some minor, some major, some fundamental.

Fundamental

• It's yet another minion spec. We've had too many of these before - turrets from base and gyros from Scrapper (before they got completely reworked to be wells). Players don't like them - the AI tends to be terrible, the minions themselves are too squishy, and the gameplay is too passive. Anet eventually came around to this viewpoint too, gutting core turrets and reworking gyros to be non-minion-based. Minions - especially mechanical ones - are often touted as 'cool' by those who've not played engi much. Those that have, hate them.
• There's no clear purpose of the class. Its power damage is poor. Its condi damage is poor. Its support is negligible. Its mobility is non-existent. It's not a healer. It's not great at debilitating opponents. It doesn't have the defences to be a tank (other than hopping in the golem, and that's got a huge CD). What is it supposed to be used for?

Major

• The cast times are far too long on all the skills that have them. A long, interruptable channel on the auto-attack is particularly yikes from a competitive POV - but honestly all of the non-zero cast times are far too high here for everything except perhaps the elite.
• Conversely, a zero-cast time on a CC is a no-no balance-wise - they need tells. So scepter-2 needs to be non-instant.
• The cooldowns are excessive - especially on scepter 2.
• The damage output is far too low. To give an example, scepter-1's tooltip DPS is 114/s, lower if it has any aftercast. Contrast that with pistol-1, arguably our weakest current attack, whose tooltip DPS is ~178/s including aftercast, and not including the extra from the bleed.
• The elite transform's skills are copy-pasted straight from the alpha siege golem. Quite aside from being disappointingly unoriginal, most WvW players will tell you that the alpha (and for that matter the omega) is actually really poor at fighting anything other than siege. Players have no trouble beating these up if they're not escorted, and they're particularly prone to condi. The only thing they have going for them is the large hitpoint pool - but that's not transferred to this elite spec (nor would it sensibly be).

Minor

• Break enemy targetting's kinda pointless on a skill that stealths you, as that'll break targetting anyway. This would only be useful in the extremely niche situation where the engi is already revealed. And 2s stealth isn't really enough to do anything useful.
• It's unclear what benefits allies receive from shared salvage.
• It's unclear how much health all the summons have.
• The available combo fields are lacking, as there's only one and it's light. Similarly, there's only one finisher, and it's a leap.

[The Boz.2038]

Nice art. Appreciate the effort.Tool belts are flip-over skills, though. Why?

[Teratus.2859]

Thematically it looks superb.. Minions are skill type that would fit the Engineer really well.

Other than theme though I'll have to agree with others here who are criticising it.Well agree with everything except the trash talking of minions as a mechanic, I like Minions and have made great builds using them over the years and would love to see more classes get minion mechanics so I say Minion's are awesome and the haters can shut it!! lmao

But in all seriousness, I would support engi minions but it would have to be done very very right to make it worth it.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Teratus.2859" said:Thematically it looks superb.. Minions are skill type that would fit the Engineer really well.

Other than theme though I'll have to agree with others here who are criticising it.Well agree with everything except the trash talking of minions as a mechanic, I like Minions and have made great builds using them over the years and would love to see more classes get minion mechanics so I say Minion's are awesome and the haters can shut it!! lmao

But in all seriousness, I would support engi minions but it would have to be done very very right to make it worth it.

Minions aside, how is it thematically superb? This spec basically is "a mechanic who builds mechanical units to aid him".

That is literally what the scrapper is. But instead of mechanical minions with different shapes, he has gyros to aid him which share a general design with nuances based on their function. I can not agree that something that just repeats what another elite spec already did is "thematically superb".

[Oxstar.7643]

As much as I appreciate the effort into this, I do not want another minion specc - I want them to fix turrets already, dangit. Not try to replace it with more minion stuff and then try to forget it exists. Core engi needs fixes, and that will not changing by smothering it in new elite specc stuff.

[Teratus.2859]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Thematically it looks superb.. Minions are skill type that would fit the Engineer really well.

Other than theme though I'll have to agree with others here who are criticising it.Well agree with everything except the trash talking of minions as a mechanic, I like Minions and have made great builds using them over the years and would love to see more classes get minion mechanics so I say Minion's are awesome and the haters can shut it!! lmao

But in all seriousness, I would support engi minions but it would have to be done very very right to make it worth it.

Minions aside, how is it thematically superb? This spec basically is "a mechanic who builds mechanical units to aid him".

That is

literally

what the scrapper is. But instead of mechanical minions with different shapes, he has gyros to aid him which share a general design with nuances based on their function. I can not agree that something that just repeats what another elite spec already did is "thematically superb".

Because Gyros are not minions, nor were they technically ever minions.They were more akin to summons mechanically and now they're "wells"

Thematically they're little floating drones.. hardly minion like at all and not impressive as a visual summon creature, They fit the scrapper style sure but I would categorically disagree with anyone who claims that Gyros would be the same thing as large mechanical creatures like a Mechanical Devourer or Spider.They are vastly different visually and especially since the rework, mechanically.

When people want minions they don't want little floating orbs or special effects that have a visual companion like creature like Gyros are now.. they want AI controlled companions that aid you in battle, same applies to Ranger pets.Gyros as they work today have far more in common with the Hammers that Revenant can summon around them, they're not even remotely minion like.

You can argue they used to be minion like but it's a moot point really since they're not anymore so the way I see it that re-opens the door for a Machinist like spec for the Engineer.Why this is a thematically superb concept is because Engineer is an inventor spec that greatly meshes well with both Charr and Asura's technological advancements, especially Asura and their tendency to construct Golems as multipurpose utility vehicles that they use for Transport, protection, combat, warfare, exploration and construction etc.Having an Engineer spec that focuses on building powerful mechanical companions to protect and fight along side them like Pets and Minions absolutely fits the theme of this profession, and Gyros while also fitting the theme are more akin to Smart Mines or Grenades than they are to mechanical companions that fill the minion role perfectly.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Teratus.2859" said:Because Gyros are not minions, nor were they technically ever minions.They were more akin to summons mechanically and now they're "wells"

Thematically they're little floating drones.. hardly minion like at all and not impressive as a visual summon creature, They fit the scrapper style sure but I would categorically disagree with anyone who claims that Gyros would be the same thing as large mechanical creatures like a Mechanical Devourer or Spider.They are vastly different visually and especially since the rework, mechanically.

When people want minions they don't want little floating orbs or special effects that have a visual companion like creature like Gyros are now.. they want AI controlled companions that aid you in battle, same applies to Ranger pets.Gyros as they work today have far more in common with the Hammers that Revenant can summon around them, they're not even remotely minion like.

You can argue they used to be minion like but it's a moot point really since they're not anymore so the way I see it that re-opens the door for a Machinist like spec for the Engineer.Why this is a thematically superb concept is because Engineer is an inventor spec that greatly meshes well with both Charr and Asura's technological advancements, especially Asura and their tendency to construct Golems as multipurpose utility vehicles that they use for Transport, protection, combat, warfare, exploration and construction etc.Having an Engineer spec that focuses on building powerful mechanical companions to protect and fight along side them like Pets and Minions absolutely fits the theme of this profession, and Gyros while also fitting the theme are more akin to Smart Mines or Grenades than they are to mechanical companions that fill the minion role perfectly.

I guess I didn't get my point across well here. When I think about a "thematically superb" concept for a new elite spec, then it would be something that explores yet unexplored niches of the engineer thematics.

Artificial devourers and spiders are different from gyros. But they share one trope with each other, which is mechanical constructs. What I don't understand is that people seem to always associate the engineer profession with these mechanical constructs, but the class represents so much more.

Holosmith was a great elite spec after scrapper because it was exploring a completely different niche. Instead of mechanical constructs and electricity, this time lasers and the hard light technology has been the focus. Which feels quite different and refreshing.

This is why I can't see this concept here as thematically superb. It is exploring the theme of mechanical constructs once again, which was already done with scrapper. What I would truly consider to be great thematically would be a focus on once again a completely different thematical niche of the engineer.Bioengineering or chemicals would be such an opportunity, for example, since neither scrapper nor holosmith explored these themes in the slightest and thy are part of the engineer niches as well.

I prefer to have more diversity when it comes to the elite specs.

[Teratus.2859]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Because Gyros are not minions, nor were they technically ever minions.They were more akin to summons mechanically and now they're "wells"

Thematically they're little floating drones.. hardly minion like at all and not impressive as a visual summon creature, They fit the scrapper style sure but I would categorically disagree with anyone who claims that Gyros would be the same thing as large mechanical creatures like a Mechanical Devourer or Spider.They are vastly different visually and especially since the rework, mechanically.

When people want minions they don't want little floating orbs or special effects that have a visual companion like creature like Gyros are now.. they want AI controlled companions that aid you in battle, same applies to Ranger pets.Gyros as they work today have far more in common with the Hammers that Revenant can summon around them, they're not even remotely minion like.

You can argue they used to be minion like but it's a moot point really since they're not anymore so the way I see it that re-opens the door for a Machinist like spec for the Engineer.Why this is a thematically superb concept is because Engineer is an inventor spec that greatly meshes well with both Charr and Asura's technological advancements, especially Asura and their tendency to construct Golems as multipurpose utility vehicles that they use for Transport, protection, combat, warfare, exploration and construction etc.Having an Engineer spec that focuses on building powerful mechanical companions to protect and fight along side them like Pets and Minions absolutely fits the theme of this profession, and Gyros while also fitting the theme are more akin to Smart Mines or Grenades than they are to mechanical companions that fill the minion role perfectly.

I guess I didn't get my point across well here. When I think about a "thematically superb" concept for a new elite spec, then it would be something that explores yet unexplored niches of the engineer thematics.

I get what you mean, although i'd grant the title to anything that expands significantly into the theme of the class.I'd give it to a Machinist with minions just because it's something that works very well with the theme of Engineer and they don't have anything like that right now.The original concept of Gyros was a step towards that although I'd say Anet failed pretty badly with it the first time and just replaced it entirely with Well drones.I blame this more on Anet not wanting to encroach on Necro territory with Minion play but that's what most Minion fans want them to do with things like this, we like Minions so we want more Minions not some hollow replica that just fails across the board and everyone ends up hating.

Artificial devourers and spiders are different from gyros. But they share one trope with each other, which is

mechanical constructs

. What I don't understand is that people seem to always associate the engineer profession with these mechanical constructs, but the class represents so much more.

It does, although there are big differences between the types of mechanical constructs Engineer has.. Turrets for example are MC's but they are nothing like a Golem or Gyro is.There's a fair bit of variety to explore there which is why some people want more types of construct's.For the most part though people just really like companion play and want to see it more embraced on other classes which is a weakness of Gw2 for them as currently Ranger and Necro are the only classes with decent companion capabilities.Elementalist has summons but this is a weak element of their class imo and needs some serious improvements to make Summoners a viable style for Ele's to play.

Holosmith was a great elite spec after scrapper because it was exploring a completely different niche. Instead of mechanical constructs and electricity, this time lasers and the hard light technology has been the focus. Which feels quite different and refreshing.

It was very different that's for sure although personally I didn't like this spec.

This is why I can't see this concept here as thematically superb. It is exploring the theme of mechanical constructs once again, which was already done with scrapper. What I would truly consider to be great thematically would be a focus on once again a completely different thematical niche of the engineer.Bioengineering or chemicals would be such an opportunity, for example, since neither scrapper nor holosmith explored these themes in the slightest and thy are part of the engineer niches as well.

Bioengineering would fit well into a minion based spec, instead of just mechanical creatures you could have these crazy mutilated cyborg creatures lolI expect some people would not enjoy that sort of thing though.. looking at all these twisted and mangled animals with metal sticking out of them XD

Could also go with the pet mechanic instead of Minions and have the Engineers pets be some sort of engineered Hybrids, they could make a really fun quest out of that as well, have you go around collecting pets like Rangers do but instead of using them you need to collect all the required pets in a specific line to unlock a specific hybrid creature that you can use.That would be really fun imo and a good way to avoid crossing pet issues.. Rangers only use Natural creatures, Engineers only use Hybrids.Alchemy is also something i'd like to see more expanded on as well for Engineers.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Teratus.2859" said:I get what you mean, although i'd grant the title to anything that expands significantly into the theme of the class.I'd give it to a Machinist with minions just because it's something that works very well with the theme of Engineer and they don't have anything like that right now.The original concept of Gyros was a step towards that although I'd say Anet failed pretty badly with it the first time and just replaced it entirely with Well drones.I blame this more on Anet not wanting to encroach on Necro territory with Minion play but that's what most Minion fans want them to do with things like this, we like Minions so we want more Minions not some hollow replica that just fails across the board and everyone ends up hating.

I don't think that it was because "Anet didn't want to encroach on necro territory". I think the thing here is that Anet wanted gyros to feel distinct and special in the engineers pool of skills.

If you are objectively looking into minions, even the minions suggested in this thread here, what exactly are they? They are summoned units which are attacking our enemy and have some special effects attached (like CC, conditions, etc.). And this is also what turrets are.... they are summoned units which attack our enemies with their auto attacks and some special abilities attached (again, CC, conditions, etc.).

The only differences in gameplay are that minions are mobile and in this case here, they are time restricted (since they are degenerating health). But they fulfill the same job: attacking the enemy for us, CC them and serve as meat shields.

Gyros in their original implementation were different. They were more passive in nature, 4 of the 6 gyros added didn't have offensive capabilities and just were supporting others through pulsing effects (damage reduction, condi clean, healing, stealth). What was also unique for them was that they were the only minion type in the game which was instantly cast in majority (4 out of 6 gyros had no cast time, including the healing one), but that is just a minor point.

Anet wanted to go the minion route for engineer, but at the same time they have to feel different from turrets. You can't just let them be units which are attacking the enemy for us, that's just mobile turrets and wouldn't feel new for the engineer at all.

There's a fair bit of variety to explore there which is why some people want more types of construct's.For the most part though people just really like companion play and want to see it more embraced on other classes which is a weakness of Gw2 for them as currently Ranger and Necro are the only classes with decent companion capabilities.Elementalist has summons but this is a weak element of their class imo and needs some serious improvements to make Summoners a viable style for Ele's to play.

I see what you mean, but at the same time, I don't know why people expect companion play to get enhanced on engineer specifically...Engineer already has the companion playstyle, we have our turrets. The actual problem here is that turrets are not viable in any game mode, since they were nerfed to oblivion.

But this is more an argument for turrets being in need of buffs and actual niches in the game you can run them without being a liability. Instead of replacing turrets with a new minion type and let them be forgotten, I would advocate to rework turrets from the ground to properly represent the companion playstyle inside our class.

Bioengineering would fit well into a minion based spec, instead of just mechanical creatures you could have these crazy mutilated cyborg creatures lolI expect some people would not enjoy that sort of thing though.. looking at all these twisted and mangled animals with metal sticking out of them XD

Here we have the same problem to tackle again: if you represent the bioengineering theme with minions, you have to make minions distinct in gameplay from turrets. They need a new mechanic that is more than just "I summon them and they attack my enemy". And considering that gyros already failed as an experimental minion type, I prefer to avoid minions completely for engineer in the future, tbh.

Could also go with the pet mechanic instead of Minions and have the Engineers pets be some sort of engineered Hybrids, they could make a really fun quest out of that as well, have you go around collecting pets like Rangers do but instead of using them you need to collect all the required pets in a specific line to unlock a specific hybrid creature that you can use.That would be really fun imo and a good way to avoid crossing pet issues.. Rangers only use Natural creatures, Engineers only use Hybrids.Alchemy is also something i'd like to see more expanded on as well for Engineers.

Pet mechanic could be interesting, I guess. The problem I see with this is that it seems almost impossible to control a pet in a nuanced level without the engineer having to give up their entire toolbelt. And giving up the entire toolbelt requires an extreme amount of compensation in power, since this mechanic holds quite alot of our power budget.

[bambi.6214]

I don't get the point of this whole discussion. A little floating orb, 4-legged creature or a floating fire monster, they all use the same algorithms to follow a player around, choose their pathing or the target. And those are simply bad. We don't have direct control over them, we cant rely on them, just give us a spec that doesn't have those, case closed.

[Teratus.2859]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:I get what you mean, although i'd grant the title to anything that expands significantly into the theme of the class.I'd give it to a Machinist with minions just because it's something that works very well with the theme of Engineer and they don't have anything like that right now.The original concept of Gyros was a step towards that although I'd say Anet failed pretty badly with it the first time and just replaced it entirely with Well drones.I blame this more on Anet not wanting to encroach on Necro territory with Minion play but that's what most Minion fans want them to do with things like this, we like Minions so we want more Minions not some hollow replica that just fails across the board and everyone ends up hating.

I don't think that it was because "Anet didn't want to encroach on necro territory". I think the thing here is that Anet wanted gyros to feel distinct and special in the engineers pool of skills.

I think it's probably a bit of both, I do recall a statement made before somewhere (I think by a developer but may not have been) about not wanting to give Ele summons unlimited durations because that would intrude on what makes Necro minions unique.

If you are objectively looking into minions, even the minions suggested in this thread here, what exactly are they? They are summoned units which are attacking our enemy and have some special effects attached (like CC, conditions, etc.). And this is also what turrets are.... they are summoned units which attack our enemies with their auto attacks and some special abilities attached (again, CC, conditions, etc.).

The only differences in gameplay are that minions are mobile and in this case here, they are time restricted (since they are degenerating health). But they fulfill the same job: attacking the enemy for us, CC them and serve as meat shields.

Break it down further and they're really not all that different to any AoE skill really.. they just have low damage high duration compared to say Wells or Consecrations etc.If you flipped the offensive capability of Turrets to Support or Defence you pretty much have Ranger Spirits.

I do think that Minions get far to side lined in this stigma that they exist to deal damage thus minions suck because they are mediocre at doing that.Personally I have gotten far far more use out of minions as a hybrid support and damage mechanic thanks to their excessive lifesteal capability and Dark bond, the latter being basically a 25 second protection buff that stacks with the protection boon.Thus Minions excel primarily on tankier builds as a form of sustain by constantly feeding you health and reducing your damage.. they're mainly a support mechanic for Necromancers not an offensive one as most people seem to think they are.

That is backed up heavily as well by the fact that all Minion traits are in the Death and Blood Magic traitlines.These two traitlines focus almost entirely on defence and support, not offense and damage.It's also a point of note as well that minion damage is static! and is not affected by the players stats etc.. thus minion damage is far more beneficial to Necro's running low damage builds.. tanks basicallyThis gives necros the ability to benefit fairly well from power tank stat combos, basically being very very tanky without being completely useless in damage as most tanks would be in those sets.

Gyros in their original implementation were different. They were more passive in nature, 4 of the 6 gyros added didn't have offensive capabilities and just were supporting others through pulsing effects (damage reduction, condi clean, healing, stealth). What was also unique for them was that they were the only minion type in the game which was instantly cast in majority (4 out of 6 gyros had no cast time, including the healing one), but that is just a minor point.

A lot like spirits in a way although they too have changed a lot over the years and never had instant cast times.Spirits even used to follow you around for a while but they nixed that a while back and give them degenerating health like Turrets which completely ruined Spirits for me.I used them for a long time partly for their support use but also as a means of aggro manipulation with longbow 3's stealth and the pet.I used to solo explorable dungeons with a glass canon spirits build using that tactic, good times ^^

There's a fair bit of variety to explore there which is why some people want more types of construct's.For the most part though people just really like companion play and want to see it more embraced on other classes which is a weakness of Gw2 for them as currently Ranger and Necro are the only classes with decent companion capabilities.Elementalist has summons but this is a weak element of their class imo and needs some serious improvements to make Summoners a viable style for Ele's to play.

I see what you mean, but at the same time, I don't know why people expect companion play to get enhanced on engineer specifically...Engineer already has the companion playstyle, we have our turrets. The actual problem here is that turrets are not viable in any game mode, since they were nerfed to oblivion.

But this is more an argument for turrets being in need of buffs and actual niches in the game you can run them without being a liability. Instead of replacing turrets with a new minion type and let them be forgotten, I would advocate to rework turrets from the ground to properly represent the companion playstyle inside our class.

I don't see that happening though tbh.. and largely for the same reason I expect we'll never see minions or pets get added to any other class in the game.AFK farming has put a pretty negative stigma onto these kinds of skill types and made a lot of people pretty bitter towards the existence of AI mechanics that require no player input to use.Mostly and I can speak for myself here too, it comes from people who are fans of pets and minions etcWe are constantly fearing that some mechanics we love and enjoy in the game will end up being crippled and ruined because of bad actor players abusing them..And even if that doesn't come to pass, at the very least it's likely Anet will avoid putting more of them into the game for that very reason.As much as we love these mechanics and would love to play other classes with summoner playstyles.. we don't expect it to ever happen largely thanks to bad players who abuse them and ruin it for everyone.

Bioengineering would fit well into a minion based spec, instead of just mechanical creatures you could have these crazy mutilated cyborg creatures lolI expect some people would not enjoy that sort of thing though.. looking at all these twisted and mangled animals with metal sticking out of them XD

Here we have the same problem to tackle again: if you represent the bioengineering theme with minions, you have to make minions distinct in gameplay from turrets. They need a new mechanic that is more than just "I summon them and they attack my enemy". And considering that gyros already failed as an experimental minion type, I prefer to avoid minions completely for engineer in the future, tbh.

Tbh I think it would be pretty difficult to incorporate a bio engineering theme into a build without some kind of companion system..Not impossible but difficult, best I can think of that might work.. is maybe a signet style mechanic that is themed on implants that grant passive effects and active effects when their skill is used.Tie it into some kind of adrenaline/life force like system too and it could be interesting.. passive effects only apply when you have adrenaline/life force from combat and slowly drain it while the active effects require a large energy investment to use or something.

Could also go with the pet mechanic instead of Minions and have the Engineers pets be some sort of engineered Hybrids, they could make a really fun quest out of that as well, have you go around collecting pets like Rangers do but instead of using them you need to collect all the required pets in a specific line to unlock a specific hybrid creature that you can use.That would be really fun imo and a good way to avoid crossing pet issues.. Rangers only use Natural creatures, Engineers only use Hybrids.Alchemy is also something i'd like to see more expanded on as well for Engineers.

Pet mechanic could be interesting, I guess. The problem I see with this is that it seems almost impossible to control a pet in a nuanced level without the engineer having to give up their entire toolbelt. And giving up the entire toolbelt requires an extreme amount of compensation in power, since this mechanic holds quite alot of our power budget.

It would if you were looking to gain a similar level of control as Ranger pets but if it had the same level of control as a Minion it wouldn't be a problem.If you also factor in the inability to swap pets there maybe a lot of wiggle room to get around those lack of control options.They could always do it a bit like soulbeast and have a fusion mechanic that functions like a transform skill or weapon kit, replacing your weapon skills.Another way they can make it different is that rather than your pet fuse to you like a soulbeast, you fuse into your pet instead automatically being ported to your hybrids location, and defusing from your pet could be made into an offensive effect as well.

So basically what i've just said here is this new spec would be a mix and match of Soulbeast and Death Shroud mechanics XD

[Kodama.6453]

@"Teratus.2859" said:

If you are objectively looking into minions, even the minions suggested in this thread here, what exactly are they? They are summoned units which are attacking our enemy and have some special effects attached (like CC, conditions, etc.). And this is also what turrets are.... they are summoned units which attack our enemies with their auto attacks and some special abilities attached (again, CC, conditions, etc.).

It is true that Anet tries to make skills distinct between classes, even if they share the same skill type. And I think this is a good thing. I personally enjoy alot that necromancer, chronomancer and scrapper are all using wells, yet they are using them all differently.

However, I don't think that this was really a factor for gyros here. If they would have wanted to make them attacking minions like for the necromancer, then they could have done it and give it something else to make them distinct from necromancer's minions. Like making them insta-cast, giving them health degend, or any other effect you can come up with.

I do think that Minions get far to side lined in this stigma that they exist to deal damage thus minions suck because they are mediocre at doing that.Personally I have gotten far far more use out of minions as a hybrid support and damage mechanic thanks to their excessive lifesteal capability and Dark bond, the latter being basically a 25 second protection buff that stacks with the protection boon.Thus Minions excel primarily on tankier builds as a form of sustain by constantly feeding you health and reducing your damage.. they're mainly a support mechanic for Necromancers not an offensive one as most people seem to think they are.

That is my point, turrets are the same. While they do damage, they are really not exceeding at it. But they add more utility to the engineer and also defense, like reflec, boons, CC, etc. That is exactly what I mean, theoretically, turrets also work better on tankier builds, since their damage doesn't scale with your stats. And they give you more survivability and utility. And just like minions, they also give supportive features, since they are sharing boons with allies and the healing turret also heals.

If you think about it, then necromancer's minions and engineer's turrets are really doing the same thing, just in different ways.

That is backed up heavily as well by the fact that all Minion traits are in the Death and Blood Magic traitlines.These two traitlines focus almost entirely on defence and support, not offense and damage.It's also a point of note as well that minion damage is static! and is not affected by the players stats etc.. thus minion damage is far more beneficial to Necro's running low damage builds.. tanks basicallyThis gives necros the ability to benefit fairly well from power tank stat combos, basically being very very tanky without being completely useless in damage as most tanks would be in those sets.

See the comment before, all you say here is true for turrets as well. The only turret trait we have is adding defense (reflec) and support (boons), but no damage. And turret's damage is also static.

I don't see that happening though tbh.. and largely for the same reason I expect we'll never see minions or pets get added to any other class in the game.AFK farming has put a pretty negative stigma onto these kinds of skill types and made a lot of people pretty bitter towards the existence of AI mechanics that require no player input to use.Mostly and I can speak for myself here too, it comes from people who are fans of pets and minions etcWe are constantly fearing that some mechanics we love and enjoy in the game will end up being crippled and ruined because of bad actor players abusing them..And even if that doesn't come to pass, at the very least it's likely Anet will avoid putting more of them into the game for that very reason.As much as we love these mechanics and would love to play other classes with summoner playstyles.. we don't expect it to ever happen largely thanks to bad players who abuse them and ruin it for everyone.

I think it can happen, many suggestions were made in these forums already about that. You can't expect turrets to stay the same as dealing damage constantly without imput, tho. There needs to be more input from the engineer, some interaction that requires the engineer to actively do something with them.

Tbh I think it would be pretty difficult to incorporate a bio engineering theme into a build without some kind of companion system..Not impossible but difficult, best I can think of that might work.. is maybe a signet style mechanic that is themed on implants that grant passive effects and active effects when their skill is used.Tie it into some kind of adrenaline/life force like system too and it could be interesting.. passive effects only apply when you have adrenaline/life force from combat and slowly drain it while the active effects require a large energy investment to use or something.

There are more ways to represent bioengineering, you just have to be creative.

I suggested an elite spec myself, the plaguedoctor, and associated that elite spec with corruptions, for example. This could represent dangerous chemicals and concoctions, which the engineer uses to enhance the strength of his allies, but they come with downsides, which could be thematically explained as "side effects". It is also pretty easy to differentiate these from the necromancer corruptions.

For example, you could make these skills cost a flat amount of health from the engineer to get used instead of applying conditions to yourself.Another way would be to make these corruptions AoE buffs for allies and instead of just the engineer suffering conditions when these skills are used, you inflict conditions on all affected allies. Which could have great synergy with purity of purpose. First you buff your allies and put conditions on them, then you clean these conditions inflicted by you to turn them into boons instead.

You could use preparations. Thematically, the engineer could place tanks filled with different concoctions and gases on the battlefield. Once he triggers them, they spread these chemicals or biological weapons in the area.

These are just two examples, but I think there are tons of more ways to represent bioengineering both thematically and mechanically in this game.

It would if you were looking to gain a similar level of control as Ranger pets but if it had the same level of control as a Minion it wouldn't be a problem.If you also factor in the inability to swap pets there maybe a lot of wiggle room to get around those lack of control options.They could always do it a bit like soulbeast and have a fusion mechanic that functions like a transform skill or weapon kit, replacing your weapon skills.Another way they can make it different is that rather than your pet fuse to you like a soulbeast, you fuse into your pet instead automatically being ported to your hybrids location, and defusing from your pet could be made into an offensive effect as well.

So basically what i've just said here is this new spec would be a mix and match of Soulbeast and Death Shroud mechanics XD

So basically, just tag on a single big minion onto the engineer. Can't say I am a fan of that idea. With just this one single minion as a class mechanic, the gameplay would need to get heavily based on it. And if the gameplay is based on this minion, then having absolutely no control over it would feel terrible to play with....

Also I would like to avoid another transformation mechanic for the engineer that replaces weapon skills. Holosmith has already done that.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Samug.6512" said:I don't get the point of this whole discussion. A little floating orb, 4-legged creature or a floating fire monster, they all use the same algorithms to follow a player around, choose their pathing or the target. And those are simply bad. We don't have direct control over them, we cant rely on them, just give us a spec that doesn't have those, case closed.

I just want to provide arguments beyond "AI bad" to get the point across that engineer really shouldn't get minions as their next elite spec skill type....Minions don't provide something great for engineer, both thematically and mechanically.

[Teratus.2859]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:

If you are objectively looking into minions, even the minions suggested in this thread here, what exactly are they? They are summoned units which are attacking our enemy and have some special effects attached (like CC, conditions, etc.). And this is also what turrets are.... they are summoned units which attack our enemies with their auto attacks and some special abilities attached (again, CC, conditions, etc.).

It is true that Anet tries to make skills distinct between classes, even if they share the same skill type. And I think this is a good thing. I personally enjoy alot that necromancer, chronomancer and scrapper are all using wells, yet they are using them all differently.

However, I don't think that this was really a factor for gyros here. If they would have wanted to make them attacking minions like for the necromancer, then they could have done it and give it something else to make them distinct from necromancer's minions. Like making them insta-cast, giving them health degend, or any other effect you can come up with.

Yeah I like that too which is one reason I want more minion/summoner play in the game but serving different roles on different classes.If it can be done with Wells and Shouts and Signets etc then why not minions or corruptions or banners etcHeavy Condition investment is already one way they could differ new minions from Necro minions as Necro minions are pretty terrible at (damaging) condition application.They could also put more focus on sacrificing minions which is something the Necro is also not so great at either outside of PvP where their minions are extremely fragile.

I do think that Minions get far to side lined in this stigma that they exist to deal damage thus minions suck because they are mediocre at doing that.Personally I have gotten far far more use out of minions as a hybrid support and damage mechanic thanks to their excessive lifesteal capability and Dark bond, the latter being basically a 25 second protection buff that stacks with the protection boon.Thus Minions excel primarily on tankier builds as a form of sustain by constantly feeding you health and reducing your damage.. they're mainly a support mechanic for Necromancers not an offensive one as most people seem to think they are.

That is my point, turrets are the same. While they do damage, they are really not exceeding at it. But they add more utility to the engineer and also defense, like reflec, boons, CC, etc. That is exactly what I mean, theoretically, turrets also work better on tankier builds, since their damage doesn't scale with your stats. And they give you more survivability and utility. And just like minions, they also give supportive features, since they are sharing boons with allies and the healing turret also heals.

If you think about it, then necromancer's minions and engineer's turrets are really doing the same thing, just in different ways.

Actually from what you said it sounds more like Spirits to me than minions but there's not that big a difference tbh.Probably the main difference is Minions are entirely selfish benefitting only the Necromancer where as turrets and spirits have group support.

I don't see that happening though tbh.. and largely for the same reason I expect we'll never see minions or pets get added to any other class in the game.AFK farming has put a pretty negative stigma onto these kinds of skill types and made a lot of people pretty bitter towards the existence of AI mechanics that require no player input to use.Mostly and I can speak for myself here too, it comes from people who are fans of pets and minions etcWe are constantly fearing that some mechanics we love and enjoy in the game will end up being crippled and ruined because of bad actor players abusing them..And even if that doesn't come to pass, at the very least it's likely Anet will avoid putting more of them into the game for that very reason.As much as we love these mechanics and would love to play other classes with summoner playstyles.. we don't expect it to ever happen largely thanks to bad players who abuse them and ruin it for everyone.

I think it can happen, many suggestions were made in these forums already about that. You can't expect turrets to stay the same as dealing damage constantly without imput, tho. There needs to be more input from the engineer, some interaction that requires the engineer to actively do something with them.

I actually agree with you about the input here.I think Turrets could get a serious rework in how they are used as well and I have an idea that might be a solution for them.

I think one of the best things Anet could do for Turrets is remove their AI/scripts entirely and give them long durations with either a set amount or regenerating ammunition.Rather than turrets fire automatically at intervals the player would get to actively control each turret and trigger when they wanted the turrets to fire, similar in a way to preparations if preparations had multiple uses.Use them sparingly and pick your moments or unload your entire ammo stockpile at once in a barrage!! and then self destruct them, would be up to you how to use them.

This would fit in so much more with the theme of turrets imo and since they would now be active skills the player would use they could get rid of the static damage problem as well and allow them to scale with the players stats.By doing this it also opens the door for a more AI minion like skill type as well since both Gyros and Turrets would no longer fill that role.

Tbh I think it would be pretty difficult to incorporate a bio engineering theme into a build without some kind of companion system..Not impossible but difficult, best I can think of that might work.. is maybe a signet style mechanic that is themed on implants that grant passive effects and active effects when their skill is used.Tie it into some kind of adrenaline/life force like system too and it could be interesting.. passive effects only apply when you have adrenaline/life force from combat and slowly drain it while the active effects require a large energy investment to use or something.

There are more ways to represent bioengineering, you just have to be creative.

I suggested an elite spec myself, the plaguedoctor, and associated that elite spec with corruptions, for example. This could represent dangerous chemicals and concoctions, which the engineer uses to enhance the strength of his allies, but they come with downsides, which could be thematically explained as "side effects". It is also pretty easy to differentiate these from the necromancer corruptions.

You have to be very careful regarding players giving downsides to other players in Gw2.. least you give the trolls ammo to annoy people lolThematically though it's a great concept as well and fits with the Engineer.

For example, you could make these skills cost a flat amount of health from the engineer to get used instead of applying conditions to yourself.Another way would be to make these corruptions AoE buffs for allies and instead of just the engineer suffering conditions when these skills are used, you inflict conditions on all affected allies. Which could have great synergy with purity of purpose. First you buff your allies and put conditions on them, then you clean these conditions inflicted by you to turn them into boons instead.

I dunno about health investment.. this is something I think that Necromancers should get if anything as it was a big part of their Gw1 profession.If they were going to go down that road i'd rather see Necromancer corruptions get major buffs in power but now require the health investment to justify them and the plaguedoctor spec should get the self condi application that Necro corruptions currently give.This would be a better fit with the side effect concept imo and they could push that even further by having plaguedoctors get damage modifiers for every condition they have on them which will force them to manage their conditions with the Resistance boon of which this spec would have to supply a good chunk of.

It would if you were looking to gain a similar level of control as Ranger pets but if it had the same level of control as a Minion it wouldn't be a problem.If you also factor in the inability to swap pets there maybe a lot of wiggle room to get around those lack of control options.They could always do it a bit like soulbeast and have a fusion mechanic that functions like a transform skill or weapon kit, replacing your weapon skills.Another way they can make it different is that rather than your pet fuse to you like a soulbeast, you fuse into your pet instead automatically being ported to your hybrids location, and defusing from your pet could be made into an offensive effect as well.

So basically what i've just said here is this new spec would be a mix and match of Soulbeast and Death Shroud mechanics XD

So basically, just tag on a single big minion onto the engineer. Can't say I am a fan of that idea. With just this one single minion as a

class mechanic

, the gameplay would need to get heavily based on it. And if the gameplay is based on this minion, then having absolutely no control over it would feel terrible to play with....

Also I would like to avoid another transformation mechanic for the engineer that replaces weapon skills. Holosmith has already done that.

More a pet than a minion but arguably there isn't that much difference.But yea the gameplay would revolve around it.. not so much the pet itself but the Soulbeast like fusing mechanic which would more mimic the Death Shroud mechanic giving you new weapon skills and a second health bar (which will be based on the combined current health of your pet and character) but with the added benefits of a pet fusion stat boost based on your hybrid creature.

Swapping weapon skills is something the Engineer is kinda designed for though, Holosmith does it as you said but they also have kits too which also do the same.Considering Engineers cannot swap weapons in combat I believe that they are best primed to have new specs that give them new weapon skills via mechanics like that.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Teratus.2859 said:I do think that Minions get far to side lined in this stigma that they exist to deal damage thus minions suck because they are mediocre at doing that.Personally I have gotten far far more use out of minions as a hybrid support and damage mechanic thanks to their excessive lifesteal capability and Dark bond, the latter being basically a 25 second protection buff that stacks with the protection boon.Thus Minions excel primarily on tankier builds as a form of sustain by constantly feeding you health and reducing your damage.. they're mainly a support mechanic for Necromancers not an offensive one as most people seem to think they are.

That is backed up heavily as well by the fact that all Minion traits are in the Death and Blood Magic traitlines.These two traitlines focus almost entirely on defence and support, not offense and damage.It's also a point of note as well that minion damage is static! and is not affected by the players stats etc.. thus minion damage is far more beneficial to Necro's running low damage builds.. tanks basicallyThis gives necros the ability to benefit fairly well from power tank stat combos, basically being very very tanky without being completely useless in damage as most tanks would be in those sets.

You basically describe the perfect afk farm build here. Doesnt even matter if you use full nomads because minions dont scale. Doesnt even make a difference what you are doing because you deal no damage yourself anyways.

I don't see that happening though tbh.. and largely for the same reason I expect we'll never see minions or pets get added to any other class in the game.AFK farming has put a pretty negative stigma onto these kinds of skill types and made a lot of people pretty bitter towards the existence of AI mechanics that require no player input to use.

Because they are made for that gameplay. Permanent minions work like that in most games. just ai that completes the game for you without effort. a lot of single player rpgs have these for the casuals. never seen it working in multiplayer games.The only type of minion that could work would be short duration ones without threat generation. They would be fancy dots with pathing bugs.

Mostly and I can speak for myself here too, it comes from people who are fans of pets and minions etcWe are constantly fearing that some mechanics we love and enjoy in the game will end up being crippled and ruined because of bad actor players abusing them..And even if that doesn't come to pass, at the very least it's likely Anet will avoid putting more of them into the game for that very reason.As much as we love these mechanics and would love to play other classes with summoner playstyles.. we don't expect it to ever happen largely thanks to bad players who abuse them and ruin it for everyone.

The playstyle those people enjoy is basically afk farm meta. Unless you mean summoner like the ff14 summoner. But like i wrote earlier those are not like gw2 minions. they cant be used as meatshields and use the casters stats. basically normal spells with fancy animations.

[TPenny.5071]

Oh wow, I should use to official forums more. lots of feedback here :)

[XenoSpyro.1780]

@"hugo.4705" said:The spec name is "Mechanist"

Step aside Joko. Praise Karras, and the Builder.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Good idea, some changes and it culd be even fun to play

Also Team Alac/Quickness as that what engineer lack for eng game

[ThrakathNar.4537]

Looking at the spec as a whole, even if we set aside the fact that it occupies the same "theme" as scrapper, and the fact that it uses minions (which overlap far too much with turrets, both in terms of mechanics and viability) there are still a lot of issues with this idea.

For a start, what's the idea behind it? Traits like Regenerating Rod and Shared Salvage imply that the class is designed to be a healer. Galvanised Armaments suggests that it's meant to be a power DPS. Thermal Runaway suggests that it's meant to be a condi DPS. Kernel Sessions gives the idea that this class is supposed to use stealth extensively (although the only stealth skills it has are sceptre 3 and blasting bomb kit 4). Full Reserve implies that it's meant to be tanky, which sort of contradicts the idea of trying to use stealth. Scrimp Supply and Powerful Parts suggest that it's meant to be self-reliant on boons and also selfish (since those boons aren't shared). Sterner Stuff tries to get your minions to stay alive, Thermal Runaway tries to get you to kill your minions faster.

It just feels like it's doing too much, and as such fills no niche. Currently, Engineer's two elite specs are a survivable bruiser (scrapper) and a high-damage power DPS (holosmith). Both of these are fairly focused goals, and leave a lot left to be desired in an Engineer spec. Not only this, but it doesn't work well with core engineer at all. For a start, you can just straight up remove the healing traits. Medkit is such a powerful core utility that engineer doesn't need a dedicated spec that can do healing. As well as this, engineer doesn't need a spec that can give itself might and fury. Engineer can already upkeep permanent self-fury through explosives, and decent uptime on self-25 might through holo+alchemy. What engineer really needs in the boon department, as @Noah Salazar.5430 said, is group quickness or alacrity, as well as several other group boons (group might, group fury, etc).

By refocusing the spec on two areas in which the engineer is lacking, for example condi DPS and boon support, you could drastically improve the viability of it (although I still wouldn't like it if thematically it was Scrapper 2.0).

Also, the parts mechanic really needs refactoring. It looks to be some sort of hybrid between Kalla's Fervor and Life Force, but it has one of the worst mechanics in the game - you need to walk to it to pick it up. There's a reason why more people don't use Ventari orbs, or why no one used old medkit. How are you going to be able to see parts lying on the ground in an open world encounter, with all those people? Even a raid has too many people to see them properly. Better just have these automatically go into your bar (since we've removed the trait that lets others heal by accidentally walking on them anyway).

[Teratus.2859]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:I do think that Minions get far to side lined in this stigma that they exist to deal damage thus minions suck because they are mediocre at doing that.Personally I have gotten far far more use out of minions as a hybrid support and damage mechanic thanks to their excessive lifesteal capability and Dark bond, the latter being basically a 25 second protection buff that stacks with the protection boon.Thus Minions excel primarily on tankier builds as a form of sustain by constantly feeding you health and reducing your damage.. they're mainly a support mechanic for Necromancers not an offensive one as most people seem to think they are.

That is backed up heavily as well by the fact that all Minion traits are in the Death and Blood Magic traitlines.These two traitlines focus almost entirely on defence and support, not offense and damage.It's also a point of note as well that minion damage is static! and is not affected by the players stats etc.. thus minion damage is far more beneficial to Necro's running low damage builds.. tanks basicallyThis gives necros the ability to benefit fairly well from power tank stat combos, basically being very very tanky without being completely useless in damage as most tanks would be in those sets.

You basically describe the perfect afk farm build here. Doesnt even matter if you use full nomads because minions dont scale. Doesnt even make a difference what you are doing because you deal no damage yourself anyways.

The problem is not with the minions, it's with the autocast mechanic on mostly GS4, something many necro players have asked to be disabled and for Minions to change so they will only attack targets when the player uses an active skill.Those two changes alone would destroy AFK minion farm builds entirely but some people dislike the idea of not being able to change their autocast to other weapon skills.Personally I don't care for those complaints though, AFK farming is a problem and even though minions get almost all the crap for it the biggest culprit that allows for it to happen is the autocast on GS4 or any skill that provides an on player location AoE.. like Ranger torch 5 to do the same thing with pets.

Change minions to attack on active skill use doesn't fix the problem because of the autocast aoe.Change minions to attack on active skill use and disable the autocast aoe's.. problem solved, no more afk farming outside of botting which is a far more serious offense.

Nomads is pretty wasted set on minion builds anyway since lifesteal gets extremely small gains from it to the point it's pretty much irrelevant, specially at the sacrifice of power which is just better for players running minion builds.. the only big benefit Necro's get from Healing power is their ability to AoE heal on shroud 4 via transfusion which is already a beefy 4-6K AoE heal without any healing power investment from stats.

People always underestimate the damage a Necro tank can do as well.Keep in mind with Necro's trait's and gear allowing for circumventing precision it's possible to get a 3 stat gear set to function as if it was 4 without needing to make the same trade offs that 4 stat gears sets need for balance.

To put that into examples..It means Necromancers running Valkyrie stats can get a flat stat advantage of 174 Power, 266 Vitality (2,660 health) and 266 ferocity (18% more crit damage) over Necromancers running Marauders Stats without needing to trade off crit chance since the 50% crit chance Marauders gear grants through precision can be obtained just as easily through the Decimate defences trait, a very easy thing to take advantage of in any kind of group play, be that open world or group based content since max stacks of Vun are easily obtained and sustained.It also means for the tanks specifically as well that Necromancers are essentially the only class in Gw2 that can function as if it were running Paladin stats outside of PvP, their dominant stat always being Power or Precision depending on the situation, this is something I have had a lot of fun with myself over the years.

I don't see that happening though tbh.. and largely for the same reason I expect we'll never see minions or pets get added to any other class in the game.AFK farming has put a pretty negative stigma onto these kinds of skill types and made a lot of people pretty bitter towards the existence of AI mechanics that require no player input to use.

Because they are made for that gameplay. Permanent minions work like that in most games. just ai that completes the game for you without effort. a lot of single player rpgs have these for the casuals. never seen it working in multiplayer games.

See this is exactly the stigma I hate about minions, people assume there is no skill, no player input at all.Real Minion players use our active minion skills when and where they're useful, especially the Golems Charge which is a huge double CC to defiance bars, easily one of the best CC skills in the game and of course Rise! which is again one of the best shouts and defensive skills in the game.

All the criticisms that people throw at minions is entirely hypocritical as the same garbage can be thrown at many boons and other defensive skills as well.So much skill stacking 25 might from autoattacking right?Oh you used a defence skill at a critical moment to give yourself protection and avoid being killed by a big attack.. I guess there's no skill in that either is there?Necro's can do the same thing in their own way and much of that comes from the utility of their minions.

Say you're a Guardian and you're about to get hit.. so you use "Hold the Line!".. you get 6 seconds of Protection and some Regeneration.. congrats you saved yourself with a well timed defence skill.People would say this was a good player action.

Now say you're a Necromancer and you're about to get hit.. so you use Rise!!.. you spawn 2 Horrors that start attacking getting Dark Bond just in time before the big attack lands and healing you with lifesteal.. congrats you saved yourself in the exact same way as the Guardian did with a well timed defence skill..Do people still say this was a good player action?No.. they don't even notice this action they just think Pfft some casual noob running with minions.

Literally the only difference in those scenarios is that the Guardian can protect and heal 5 allies with "Hold the Line!" for a few seconds..While the Necro can protect and heal itself for 25 seconds instead and then heal or revive his allies afterwards while also stopping them from bleeding out.There is no real difference at all and yet Necro's are looked down on for having minions in play despite all the benefits they offer the Necro.

The only type of minion that could work would be short duration ones without threat generation. They would be fancy dots with pathing bugs.Necro does have those though, they're called Shambling Horrors that we summon from the Rise! shout and they are what provide the unique 25 second protection buff through Dark Bond when they attack.Which btw also stacks with the protection boon! easily making Rise! one of if not thee best singular defensive skills in the game.

I'll break the skill's uses down here so you can see what I mean.Rise! spawns 1-6 minions depending on how many targets you hit with it, each minion has a 25 second lifespan/duration.Each minion applies a refreshing Dark Bond buff for a few seconds when it attacks allowing a Necro to easily maintain this buff for the entire 25 second lifespan of each of the minons, and as said above this buff stacks with protection as well giving some heavy damage reduction bonus, think it's around 44% to 55%.. it doesn't double to 66%Each Minion also provides 20 toughness with Carapace via Flesh of the Master which can easily translate to a 220 toughness stat boost by using Rise! correctly.Beyond the Veil gives you a 10% damage reduction from all conditions so long as you have 10 stacks of carapace or more, correct use of Rise! alone is one way to achieve that buff for a full 25 seconds.Each minion will also life steal and heal the player with each attack if using the Vampiric trait allowing you to double or more than double your incoming sustain healing if you make 4 or more of these minions on use of Rise!Each one of those minions will trigger Death nova upon death or expire creating multiple poison fields that Necros can use for blast or whirl combos.Each one of those minions will take 1 condition from you every 10 seconds through Necromantic Corruption allowing you to easily loose around 10-11 conditions every 10 seconds.. and the next time each minion attacks that condition gets transferred back to the caster allowing you to transfer 10-11 conditions every 10 seconds as well.

Some of those effects are handed by the game.. but that's in no way any different to say having a Sigil that transfers conditions or lifesteals on a crit.Controlling your carapace stacks for a toughness boost and condi damage reduction, controlling when you want to condi transfer several conditions specifically, controlling your on demand protection buff or when you just want some extra incoming healing to recover from a big hit.That is entirely the player deciding how to best use their minions in that situation, just like any other player does with any other class.If anything it could even be considered more difficult to pull off because of the nature of minions.. having to account for the time it will take to spawn them and for them to attack and move to the specific target.. maybe the player decides I should temporarily swap targets to a closer one so I can dump and transfer these condi's quicker.All of that gets completely overlooked by other players who just see a "low skill causal" running around with minions.

Mostly and I can speak for myself here too, it comes from people who are fans of pets and minions etcWe are constantly fearing that some mechanics we love and enjoy in the game will end up being crippled and ruined because of bad actor players abusing them..And even if that doesn't come to pass, at the very least it's likely Anet will avoid putting more of them into the game for that very reason.As much as we love these mechanics and would love to play other classes with summoner playstyles.. we don't expect it to ever happen largely thanks to bad players who abuse them and ruin it for everyone.

The playstyle those people enjoy is basically afk farm meta. Unless you mean summoner like the ff14 summoner. But like i wrote earlier those are not like gw2 minions. they cant be used as meatshields and use the casters stats. basically normal spells with fancy animations.

You are flat out wrong here..If you're referring to the bad actor players, they don't enjoy playing this way because they literally don't play the game when they do it.. you can't enjoy a game you are not playing, it's entirely a self serving method of profiteering which is really no different than botting or hacking gold into the game, it upsets the market and devalues materials and items that other people may legitimately farm and no longer gain as much from.

If you're referring to me and other genuine minion players in general though then you're wrong because we despite AFK farming more than most players do and I have personally reported hundreds of players for doing it even guild mates who have been kicked from my main guild for doing it as well.Our guild leaders/admins have a 0 tolerance policy for AFK farming, botting or any kind of stuff like that which hurts the game so it's an instant kick for any guildies caught.I do not enjoy AFK playstyle's at all, I hate it and I especially hate how bad of a reputation it gives to players who do like minions and use them as they are intended to be used.

[Oxstar.7643]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Thematically it looks superb.. Minions are skill type that would fit the Engineer really well.

Other than theme though I'll have to agree with others here who are criticising it.Well agree with everything except the trash talking of minions as a mechanic, I like Minions and have made great builds using them over the years and would love to see more classes get minion mechanics so I say Minion's are awesome and the haters can shut it!! lmao

But in all seriousness, I would support engi minions but it would have to be done very very right to make it worth it.

Minions aside, how is it thematically superb? This spec basically is "a mechanic who builds mechanical units to aid him".

That is

literally

what the scrapper is. But instead of mechanical minions with different shapes, he has gyros to aid him which share a general design with nuances based on their function. I can not agree that something that just repeats what another elite spec already did is "thematically superb".

Gyros are just glorified wells. Intially they weren't but I assume that for the sake of simplicity it became this way. As is stand, engineer has no minions that follows them around and fights for them. Like I said, I want core engie and turrets to be fixed. However. They admitted defeat on the minion part by changing them into wells, and if they don't fix turrets then that's two defeats. If they add minions then they need to make it into a win. That seems to be the issue here, nobody thinks they actually can.