Redefining the new game experience

[Obtena.7952]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

Or because it's not as important as other things.

I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Are we talking about learning how to play the game or talking about details like stats, etc??? Seems to me the OP is focused on issues about the details, not learning to play. The game doesn't teach you to play it? I beg to differ. The game doesn't provide all the details about certain aspects of the game? Sure, but that information is available, just not ingame ... just like how games have worked forever with written manuals, etc ...

If the Wiki or other sources don't explain the game well enough, that's got nothing to do with whether the information is or isn't in the game itself.

[Oxstar.7643]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

Or because it's not as important as other things.

I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Are we talking about learning how to play the game or talking about details like stats, etc??? Seems to me the OP is focused on issues about the details, not learning to play. The game doesn't teach you to play it? I beg to differ. The game doesn't provide all the details about certain aspects of the game? Sure, but that information is available, just not ingame ... just like how games have worked forever with written manuals, etc ...

If the Wiki or other sources don't explain the game well enough, that's got nothing to do with whether the information is or isn't in the game itself.

Explained well enough to play it right. Playing it optimally is a matter of knowing all the details, and those you can usually learn from other players, so no, I do not think literally every single minute detail has to be explained in the game, though for some, that would certainly be nice.

Anyways, you brought up the context of small details = information, I'm unsure where this context even came up, but that's what I answered to.To me personally, little details means many things, like corpses clipping into hills up to their feet and npc's floating in the air. To some people, things like that snaps their immersion, and immersion is good for any game that has a story to tell and an atmosphere to set.

In general, details matters.

[Obtena.7952]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

Or because it's not as important as other things.

I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Are we talking about learning how to play the game or talking about details like stats, etc??? Seems to me the OP is focused on issues about the details, not learning to play. The game doesn't teach you to play it? I beg to differ. The game doesn't provide all the details about certain aspects of the game? Sure, but that information is available, just not ingame ... just like how games have worked forever with written manuals, etc ...

If the Wiki or other sources don't explain the game well enough, that's got nothing to do with whether the information is or isn't in the game itself.

Explained well enough to play it right. Playing it optimally is a matter of knowing all the details, and those you can usually learn from other players, so no, I do not think literally every single minute detail has to be explained in the game, though for some, that would certainly be nice.

Anyways, you brought up the context of small details = information, I'm unsure where this context even came up, but that's what I answered to.To me personally, little details means many things, like corpses clipping into hills up to their feet and npc's floating in the air. To some people, things like that snaps their immersion, and immersion is good for any game that has a story to tell and an atmosphere to set.

In general, details matters.

It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there. There are a few reasons for that, but I think they are sufficiently covered already in the thread. The OP isn't actually complaining about 'game polish' like corpse clipping or floating NPC's ... I don't get why that's come up as it seems unrelated to the original complaint.

[Oxstar.7643]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately.

So in your opinion, lack of polish indicates not caring? That's rather sensational considering there are more important things to deal with wouldn't you agree?Nobody wants to fix/tweak older stuff because it is a drudge work.

Or because it's not as important as other things.

I agree with what astralporing said. If you constantly say that there are more important things then a lot of little thing accumulate to become actual problems.

Except information that is available for players to learn about the game NOT being in the game isn't a problem. Games have worked like that since the being of their existence.

You shouldn't have to go open the wiki just because the game doesn't explain how things work well enough. And just because its a common thing doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

Are we talking about learning how to play the game or talking about details like stats, etc??? Seems to me the OP is focused on issues about the details, not learning to play. The game doesn't teach you to play it? I beg to differ. The game doesn't provide all the details about certain aspects of the game? Sure, but that information is available, just not ingame ... just like how games have worked forever with written manuals, etc ...

If the Wiki or other sources don't explain the game well enough, that's got nothing to do with whether the information is or isn't in the game itself.

Explained well enough to play it right. Playing it optimally is a matter of knowing all the details, and those you can usually learn from other players, so no, I do not think literally every single minute detail has to be explained in the game, though for some, that would certainly be nice.

Anyways, you brought up the context of small details = information, I'm unsure where this context even came up, but that's what I answered to.To me personally, little details means many things, like corpses clipping into hills up to their feet and npc's floating in the air. To some people, things like that snaps their immersion, and immersion is good for any game that has a story to tell and an atmosphere to set.

In general, details matters.

It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there. There are a few reasons for that, but I think they are sufficiently covered already in the thread. The OP isn't actually complaining about 'game polish' like corpse clipping or floating NPC's ... I don't get why that's come up as it seems unrelated to the original complaint.

Because, we were talking about details and polish. Things like corpse clipping and floating npc's falls squarely under that.As for the OP, I can't fault him for not wanting to look stuff up on the wiki. I also cannot fault the developers for not having a vast compendium with all the mechanics and details in it. Like I said - things like that are nice. I would not MIND having that myself. But, I'd rather see the time go to fixing the glitches, bugs, clipping, floating, and so on, and developing new content.

[Ailuro.2780]

It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there.

First of all, please don't insinuate things that I'm not claiming. My post is purely what I think would benefit new players. Like I said, I've been playing for nearly 8 years now. I have no issue reading the wiki or watching youtube for information. The same way you clearly don't have an issue for it. However, you're arguing against the idea of an option of it being in-game but that's purely subjective and an opinion because it suits yourself.

Secondly, I've provided repeated examples of players who reach end-game content, and you haven't replied to that at all as if those kinds of players don't exist. There seems to be a very bad habit here in this post of misquoting, and not replying to the full argument.

Finally, just answer this one simple question. Should there be an option for players to learn mechanics in-game through the help of incentive missions, NPC, and whatever it it is because many comments have offered alternative but great ideas? If no, then okay that's not the option for yourself but that doesn't mean just because you dont' want to do it, other players shouldn't have the chance to make an option.

[Ailuro.2780]

Furthermore, if not to solidify my stance, there is a recent post:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/124305/how-to-start-a-new-player#latest

Which mentions extra things I have yet to cover, the need for knowledge on how important collections can be, how important is to learn how to navigate the achievements panel and the priority to the things within the achievements panel is non-existent. The lack of information on how someone gets started on fractals, and then progresses. The list of absent information for preparing the new player to end game content just goes on and on.

[Linken.6345]

@Ailuro.2780 said:

It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there.

First of all, please don't insinuate things that I'm not claiming. My post is purely what I think would benefit new players. Like I said, I've been playing for nearly 8 years now. I have no issue reading the wiki or watching youtube for information. The same way you clearly don't have an issue for it. However, you're arguing against the idea of an option of it being in-game but that's purely subjective and an opinion because it suits

yourself

.

Secondly, I've provided repeated examples of players who reach end-game content, and you haven't replied to that at all as if those kinds of players don't exist. There seems to be a very bad habit here in this post of misquoting, and not replying to the full argument.

Finally, just answer this one simple question. Should there be an option for players to learn mechanics in-game through the help of incentive missions, NPC, and whatever it it is because many comments have offered alternative but great ideas? If no, then okay that's not the option for yourself but that doesn't mean just because you dont' want to do it, other players shouldn't have the chance to make an option.

No there should not be such an option you got the whole world to learn mechanics.If you want to learn them you will if not no optional mission will ever make you learn it.

Look at the optional dodge tutorial in game as an example and still alot of people dont know how to dodge.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ailuro.2780 said:

It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there.

First of all, please don't insinuate things that I'm not claiming. My post is purely what I think would benefit new players.

Clearly, you didn't understand what I said ... isn't part of your complaint that detailed information like gear stats isn't in the game? Even if it's not for you, obviously you're advocating for those you feel it should be there for ... so let's not quibble over the intended audience here. YOU are making the proposal, so YOU are claiming it should be there.

However, you're arguing against the idea of an option of it being in-game but that's purely subjective and an opinion because it suits yourself.

Actually, I'm arguing against the idea because it's not necessary at this point for Anet to waste time to put the information ingame that you think should be there because it already exists in a reasonable manner elsewhere. That has nothing to do with what suits me.

Secondly, I've provided repeated examples of players who reach end-game content, and you haven't replied to that at all as if those kinds of players don't exist.

Let's get this straight ... those people exist because they didn't take the time to learn about the game DESPITE the fact the game information IS available to them. You aren't fixing any problem by making already available information available to them again.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Ailuro.2780" said:Furthermore, if not to solidify my stance, there is a recent post:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/124305/how-to-start-a-new-player#latest

Which mentions extra things I have yet to cover, the need for knowledge on how important collections can be, how important is to learn how to navigate the achievements panel and the priority to the things within the achievements panel is non-existent. The lack of information on how someone gets started on fractals, and then progresses. The list of absent information for preparing the new player to end game content just goes on and on.

Except if any of this was a barrier to playing the game, how do you explain the millions of people that have managed to successfully learn and play this game over the last 8 years? Something doesn't add up with the reality of the game and the things you say it needs to have for people to learn to play it.

See, my problem here is that you have assumed that if you hand everything to a player on a silver platter, it's somehow more effective as a way to teach them than the way that information is already available to them. I think that's a rather POOR assumption. Making it redundantly available ingame doesn't solve the problem you are talking about.

I have no doubt that the volume of new players is so low and Anet resources focused so much on new content there is no fear that Anet isn't going to waste the time to implement the information already available to players where they can all access it anyways. The whole issue is moot.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Except if any of this was a barrier to playing the game, how do you explain the millions of people that have managed to successfully learn and play this game over the last 8 years?I hope you realize that this is a very bad argument. Sure, this game has over 10 million accounts. Most of those accounts aren't active anymore though. How many of those players "succesfully learned and played this game"? How many of them stopped playing because they didn't succesfully learn this game? Who knows. I would not be surprised if the answer was not to your liking, though.

Oh right, they read 'the manual' ... or even more shockingly ... ASK people how to do it. What a novel concept for an MMO.Actually, yes, yes it is. If you haven't noticed, most players in MMORPGs do not learn well things that need to be researched (be it inside or outside the game) instead of being an info delivered to them on a platter. And even being delivered on a platter is no guarantee that players will learn anything - because the complexity of the information matters a lot. Most MMORPGs deal with it by allowing their players to at least partially outgear their lack of knowledge (and, often, simplifying the stuff that need to be learned as much as possible). GW2 does not offer such an opportunity however. Which is quite bad, seeing as a lot of the info about the combat/build system is significantly more complex compared to many other MMORPGs.

As you can probably see, i don't really believe introducing more training opportunities would improve things significantly. Personally, i think that it's not the lack of training opportunities, but rather the complexity of the system itself (coupled with next to no ways to bypass the learning part) that cause a problem here.

And yes, there is a problem. If we get back to how many people have "succesfully learned and played this game", i need to remind you of the efficiency gap between the average player and a top one (10x dps). This should tell you something about how "succesfully" said average players have learned things here. I'd say that it's quite clear that the current approach of letting players learn on their own, when applied to the combat and build systems, contrary to your optimistic opinion, is not working all that well.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Except if any of this was a barrier to playing the game, how do you explain the millions of people that have managed to successfully learn and play this game over the last 8 years?I hope you realize that this is a very bad argument.

At SOME POINT, those accounts had active players ... and without the information the OP says should be in game to learn it ... so no, I don't think that's as bad an argument as you think.

You know what IS a bad argument? The argument that says people don't know the game because the information isn't being crammed in their faces every level with numerous tutorials in game. The reason people don't know is NOT because the information isn't available to them. It's because they can't be bothered to learn it. Even if they know it, if they truly understand it and the game ... they know they don't even need to use it in many cases to be successful in the game.

And yes, there is a problem. If we get back to how many people have "succesfully learned and played this game", i need to remind you of the efficiency gap between the average player and a top one (10x dps)

Do not assume the gap is solely due to lack of knowledge how to play. If anything, that gap exists because the game allows it for success. Your average player isn't looking to break any records if they can still win walking the track instead of running as fast as they can.

[Seera.5916]

@"Ailuro.2780" said:

If it's optional, players will by and large most likely not do it. Leaving the same problem you're describing in place.

Why would they not do it? It's the choice of between reading text and not playing the game, versus engaging in the game.

Here the argument that "if it's optional" doesn't really work considering if you weigh the two, it is way more fun to actually learn in the game than read the wiki.Sure, it's subjective but speaking from my own experience, more people would choose to learn it in the game than read from the wiki.

Don't need in game tutorial sessions to learn that the higher DPS you have the faster you kill things. That most would call the game insulting their intelligence.

There are different ways of achieving this due to the difference in weapons and professions.Letting the players understand exactly how to achieve a higher DPS from a specific combo and understanding their trait lines is not something insulting.

I'll say this again, many players come to end-game content with no clue what is the right weapons for them to achieve a high dps, much less knowing about combo effects in their chosen profession. The argument I'm coming from is there is more than enough evidence of people simply having to copy template builds and just forget about everything they've played with prior, it shows that they have poor understanding of the game mechanics. This is exactly why I disagree with:

the game does a good job of teaching the necessary skills

At the very least, if the game did a good job of teaching the necessary skills, then players would have to change a couple chosen traits in their specialization because learning that is pretty time-consuming. As far as I'm aware, a majority of new players who reach lvl 80 don't even understand why they should use a greatsword over axe/mace as as a warrior in PvE modes.

Why would they not do a tutorial mission that's voluntary?

Number of possible reasons including, but not limited to (usually players have a combination):

1. Boring. 99.9% of straight tutorial sessions are boring.
2. Time constraints. If you had an hour to play would you rather play a tutorial or play the actual game and make progress on whatever your goals are?
3. Belief that they are smart enough to not need a tutorial. This is for both players who truly don't need a tutorial and those whose ego prevents them from doing the tutorial when they probably should.
4. Don't like tutorial missions in general, even if put in as part of the story (some single player games even have mods made to skip those mandatory tutorial missions).

Players already know that understanding their trait lines make for better builds and that there are multiple different ways to go about the same thing. Again, putting in tutorials to teach players this is insulting the intelligence of the players. I personally don't like when games insult my intelligence about basic things like that.

Not every player has a desire to do max DPS. Most just want to be able to achieve their goals. GW2 makes it so that for most goals, you can achieve it with just viable builds and doesn't require players to master their classes to obtain max DPS. You seem to want the game to hand hold players to mastering their classes. The game should only teach players their classes.

Those who want to master their classes to do max DPS will put in the work themselves to do so. Whether that's pouring over the traits and skills and doing build crafting on their own or going out to build sites to research which build is the best and fully learning it and the why the builds were made the way they are so that they can adjust accordingly when patches release that change things or when new content that requires different skills to kill than their current build has.

But GW2 is aimed heavily at casual players. Casual players generally have low interest in min-maxing their build and just want something viable. They are just fine taking the min-max build and playing it however well they can, even if it's not perfect, even after patches are released or new content added. Some may also lack the math skills needed to really understand the math behind the build to fully understand why certain choices were made.

Some players may not have the time to master their classes and simply just want something viable so that they can obtain their goals without having to face too much failure.

As to what weapons a player should or should not use, rule of fun should always prevail. Players should play with the build that is the most fun for them. Whether that's a min-max build or a cobbled together viable build that doesn't share anything with the meta build. Yes, that means that some players choice of build will mean that they shouldn't PUG certain content and should make clear to those they run in groups with that they're not running meta so that players can decide if the content is still doable with the build the player has.

For instance, at least a few years ago it was doable to do low level fractals if two members were in Clerics gear and not traited for high DPS either. That was me and a friend in a group of friends. But the friends we were running with knew what our builds were. This was my first MMO and my friends helped me find a build that would give me room for plenty of mistakes. I've since outgrown the build.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Ailuro.2780" said:Furthermore, if not to solidify my stance, there is a recent post:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/124305/how-to-start-a-new-player#latest

Which mentions extra things I have yet to cover, the need for knowledge on how important collections can be, how important is to learn how to navigate the achievements panel and the priority to the things within the achievements panel is non-existent. The lack of information on how someone gets started on fractals, and then progresses. The list of absent information for preparing the new player to end game content just goes on and on.

But that thread has nothing to do with what you're talking about in yours. That thread is about the veteran player trying to drag the new one through content asap to get "this that and something else". It has nothing to do with the game not being able to give new players instructions. How is this even an example for anything here?

@"Astralporing.1957" said:And yes, there is a problem. If we get back to how many people have "succesfully learned and played this game", i need to remind you of the efficiency gap between the average player and a top one (10x dps). This should tell you something about how "succesfully" said average players have learned things here. I'd say that it's quite clear that the current approach of letting players learn on their own, when applied to the combat and build systems, contrary to your optimistic opinion, is not working all that well.

The main difference between those players is how much they care about minmaxing, not sure what this argument is supposed to be? There are literally builds with rotations available to anyone that wants to play ""optimally"", but people still play what they want because that's how they want to play. If anything, I'd say it shows that it's not about some lack of information available to the players, because it IS available and people still don't use it if they don't want to. Then what is the solution here? Removing the choice of weapons, skills and traits, so the players HAVE to play those specific top builds?The game already explains to the players every part of "making the build" while they're leveling up, the rest (mixing-matching, min-maxing IF THEY WANT TO, reading descriptions and choosing what fits well with what etc) is up to said players and noone else.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Except if any of this was a barrier to playing the game, how do you explain the millions of people that have managed to successfully learn and play this game over the last 8 years?I hope you realize that this is a very bad argument.

At SOME POINT, those accounts had active players ... and without the information the OP says should be in game to learn it ... so no, I don't think that's as bad an argument as you think.Considering you don't know how many of those players ever learned anything, how long they played, and why they stopped playing, yes, it

is

a bad argument. Because i could as easily twist it around and ask "How do you explain the millions of people that

tried

to successfully learn and play this game over the last 8 years, but ultimately gave up on it and quit?".

You know what IS a bad argument? The argument that says people don't know the game because the information isn't being crammed in their faces every level with numerous tutorials

in game

.Sure. The people don't know the game, because we can actually

see

they don't know the game. We don't really have any idea

why

they don't know it however. Game not doing a good job at teaching players stuff might be a cause, sure, but so might be too big a complexity of the stuff to learn. Or several other things.

The reason people don't know is NOT because the information isn't available to them. It's because they can't be bothered to learn it.That's one of the possibilities, sure. Some don't have access to the information, because it is not available

in the places they are looking for it - in the game itself

. Some don't understand the information in the form that is available for them. Some do understand the information, but can't turn that understanding into any practical result (i.e. may not be skilled enough). Some can't be bothered to learn.

And yes, there

is

a problem. If we get back to how many people have "succesfully learned and played this game", i need to remind you of the efficiency gap between the

average

player and a top one (10x dps)

Do not assume the gap is solely due to lack of knowledge how to play.I don't assume that, but that

does

play a large part. You keep forgetting that most of players truly use only informations they can access from the game itself. Many don't even know that some of the third-party sites (like snowcrows) exist - sites you might consider to be common knowledge. In fact, the reason for why quite a lot of players would not try looking for info about stuff like that outside the game is not because they're too lazy to do that, but because

it would just not even cross their mind

.

If anything, that gap exists because the game allows it for success. Your average player isn't looking to break any records if they can still win walking the track instead of running as fast as they can.Considering the typical reaction of those players when confronted with a type of content where their level of knowledge turns out to be unsatisfactory, i'd say that expecting players to get better because the game would demand it from them is naive. Those players that can learn, learn it regardless of whether it is required. Those that (for some reason) can't/don't learn will not change either just because it is suddenly required - and if forced to, they would just stop playing. Sure, that would make the gap smaller, but not by improving the skills of individual players, but by flat out removing the weaker ones.

[Oxstar.7643]

I'd like to offer the following perspective. If players can teach players what they need to know or details being derived from the wiki, is it worth the time and cost for ANet to make tutorial stuff that goes in deep detail? You have to weigh benefits against expenses in the end.Please note I am not taking sides here, nor do I purport to know what the situation is. I just want to put the question out there.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Somehow, all of us playing managed to 'learn the game' enough to still play.I don't know how much of the population it is, but some players just aren't interested in min/maxing, or using some specific best-for-particular-content weapon or build. It's a game, and they just want to have fun. Still, they manage to be able to complete most of the content released, barring the high-challenge end-content, such as Raids, etc.

Is the purpose of this suggestion to make everyone a min-maxer, so that all content released becomes 10x-higher in difficulty? Is the goal to have another Wildstar? It seems that game didn't go over that well.

[Obtena.7952]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

If people couldn't learn to play the game without the detailed information the OP thinks should be in it, the game wouldn't even exist, much less have millions of accounts .. so no, it's not a 'bad argument' that millions of accounts shows we don't need this information ingame. It also shows there isn't a need to put it in the game.

Anyone that doesn't investigate how the game works just because the information isn't served up to them ingame is just plain ignorant or lazy; it's STANDARD practice that the information the OP is asking to be ingame is in the manual/online. The game just ISN'T that hard and doesn't require that level of understanding for the information he wants in the game to be up front and learned by everyone to play it.

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Somehow, all of us playing managed to 'learn the game' enough to still play.I don't know how much of the population it is, but some players just aren't interested in min/maxing, or using some specific best-for-particular-content weapon or build. It's a game, and they just want to have fun. Still, they manage to be able to complete most of the content released, barring the high-challenge end-content, such as Raids, etc.

Is the purpose of this suggestion to make everyone a min-maxer, so that all content released becomes 10x-higher in difficulty? Is the goal to have another Wildstar? It seems that game didn't go over that well.

All that ... exactly.

[Ailuro.2780]

And even being delivered on a platter is no guarantee that players will learn anything - because the complexity of the information matters a lot.

As you can probably see, i don't really believe introducing more training opportunities would improve things significantly. Personally, i think that it's not the lack of training opportunities, but rather the complexity of the system itself (coupled with next to no ways to bypass the learning part) that cause a problem here.

I would like to hear your views on why you believe the complexity of the system is too great. Personally, I agree that to some extent, some parts of the system is indeed complex however I do believe some parts that are left untouched are very very simple to learn. For example, the ideal combo, and why. Every core build has a basic combo, and a "better" combo.

This would teach the fundamental "attack" style of any profession and what they're good at for DPS, and what they're not. The combos for different weapons as well. This is an easy solution to just introduce the basics of how to master their profession via the Instructor/sparring/training instance. Another thing is learning about end-game content. Either in the instance via a board, or the NPC can answer questions on "How do I start Fractals?" "What do I need to know about WvW?" or another option that leads to the guild panel tab idea that says here are the guilds that specialize in WvW (which is just the filtered for WvW).

Another common issue with new players who reach level 80 is they don't understand what an ideal rotation is. Just supplanting the idea of a basic team that has a basic rotation with the different profession and showing these NPCs rotate around a golem would do a great job of a visual explanation. The number of people that come on to strikes and raids, and have no idea how to co-ordinate nor even intuitively begin to understand the environmental or boss mechanics is insane. A huge issue in this game I've personally encountered is then the elitism of NOT casual players who look down on these players. Everyone starts off somewhere but people should definitely not be starting there for that deep into the game.

Plus I believe if we did this, in the future we could have PvE leaderboards showcasing the top 10 guilds that are compeleting the gamemode in the fastest type, this would promote more of a community challenge drive.

[Ailuro.2780]

Is the purpose of this suggestion to make everyone a min-maxer, so that all content released becomes 10x-higher in difficulty? Is the goal to have another Wildstar? It seems that game didn't go over that well.

No, the purpose of it is to make new-game content more in-depth and provide players the opportunity to be more prepared for all content. This means just being able to start and understand it.

Somehow, all of us playing managed to 'learn the game' enough to still play.Sorry but I completely disagree with this statement. I have been in several Guilds, and in one right now focused on helping new players. In my 4 or so continuous years of doing that, I have met thousands of players who do not differ in knowledge or skill from when they're at level 20. The number of people I've met too intimidated to start fractals, WvW, or PvP without a push or someone explaining the simple steps that could've been easily covered by the game.

I really need to make this clear because half of the people on this thread understand my point, and the other are misinterpreting it. The whole point of the suggestion is to just SHOW some level of basic information not go all the way and feed them with a silver spoon. As it stands there is no integration whatsoever between beginner and end-game content, you're just thrown out there. This is faulty game design, in my opinion.

[Ailuro.2780]

@Oxstar.7643 said:I'd like to offer the following perspective. If players can teach players what they need to know or details being derived from the wiki, is it worth the time and cost for ANet to make tutorial stuff that goes in deep detail? You have to weigh benefits against expenses in the end.Please note I am not taking sides here, nor do I purport to know what the situation is. I just want to put the question out there.

100% That's the point of the second suggestion for better player to player interaction however what about the players that fall in between the cracks? What about the people who aren't all that ready to join a group? And again, the tutorial stuff does not go in deep detail. I do not understand what in my post has led you to believe it is about an in-depth tutorial but it is just an intro the the basics and providing a better structured path to end-game content unlike what it is now.

[Fuchslein.8639]

Gw2 is actually the only MMO I've played so far that doesn't have a tutorial-popups at the beginning. Only these few lvl-up texts.And I'm personally quite happy about it, because I'm someone who always clicks away the whole stuff because it always overwhelms me at the beginning anyway and I prefer to teach myself things via the Internet, or ask people.

But I can also understand if people would like that.For me personally GW2 is a super simple game. The build system and everything is super easy to understand. The synergy of meta-builds and all that, that was never a problem for me.For me personally.But I can absolutely understand if others have problems with it. However, I now believe that these people who have problems BUT want to learn are outnumbered and are very well able to use Google or just ask here in the forum (even if you get here in the forum not always the nicest answers ala look in the wiki, but that's another story).Because all the people who wildly spam their skills or do not dodge do that (in my opinion) with pure intent, or because they just do not care. For example, these are two points that you can change super easy by reading through the skills times and on the dodging you will be pointed out at the beginning not only by this dodge circle in each starter area. You also get pop-ups above the stamina bar in the beginning.Crowd control could be explored more in HOT, as it is an incredibly important tool that is hardly discussed in the game itself.But other than that, I can't think of much that you can't figure out for yourself with actual reading and trial and error if you need to.To the rest, just the thing with the guild, I personally do not quite understand what you expect from Anet.As I wrote above, too much information can also be very quickly overwhelming, even deterring.I personally like that there are no channels for advertising. Sure you see guild ads here and there in GW2, but the majority are here in the forums where you can read through everything at your leisure and write to the one that appeals to you the most, instead of just writing to everyone in guild chat until you find the right one for you. And the forum is listed on the website where you buy the game.

Of course, this is just my opinion and my experience that everyone can see differently. Because I am someone who has played many other MMO's before GW2 and generally many other games. So I know the basics so to speak and before I started GW2 I informed myself about the game anyway, like I do with every game I have to pay for.These are of course prerequisites that not everyone has and I think in a forum are people who do not have this prerequisite and therefore have a different opinion, very outnumbered. Therefore, I would not be against adapting things as long as they are, as you say, not great and disturbing.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I agree the entire new game experience should be redefined, but not for the reasons mentioned. I think many things you are saying is from a specific perspective off how to play the game. (min/max and rotations). This is perfectly fine, but there are other things some others enjoy more.

I would be very much for a second new game experience in EoD making it more like a campaign. So new levelling maps (maybe not as much as Central Tyria) and a new tutorial and a newly designed experience.

What I would like is that they again add some choices for story and development, but make them not about class, but about what you like and make it fitting for that playstyle.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ailuro.2780 said:Another common issue with new players who reach level 80 is they don't understand what an ideal rotation is.

That's not a problem at all. If you think it is, you completely don't understand what this game is about and why it's designed this way. Even if Anet had tutorials ingame, that is one you would NEVER see. The things you think are issues ... are not.

There is always going to be ways to improve the NP experience but it's important to recognize what is necessary information to play the game and everything else. This kind of thing about rotations ... is in the 'everything else'. Everything else stuff shouldn't be part of the ingame experience.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ailuro.2780 said:

And even being delivered on a platter is no guarantee that players will learn anything - because the complexity of the information matters a lot.

As you can probably see, i don't really believe introducing more training opportunities would improve things significantly. Personally, i think that it's not the lack of training opportunities, but rather the complexity of the system itself (coupled with next to no ways to bypass the learning part) that cause a problem here.

I would like to hear your views on why you believe the complexity of the system is too great. Personally, I agree that to some extent, some parts of the system is indeed complex however I do believe some parts that are left untouched are very very simple to learn. For example, the ideal combo, and why. Every core build has a basic combo, and a "better" combo.Every build (core or espec) has a proper rotation. Not every build has a simplified rotation however, unless you include autoattacking in this (which is a huge stretch). Some of those rotations are simple, some are anything but, and some

seem

simple, until you actually try to execute them.

Notice, also, that each rotation is very build-specific. Sometimes even a small variation within the same general build can impact rotation to a significant degree. And since builds are anything but static, and are something that changes from one balance patch to the next, the same becomes true of rotations.

And all that is when someone else is doing the hard part for you (finding out what the rotation should be). If you have to do it on your own, it becomes a very complex problem. Sure, the basis of each rotation may seem extremely simple (chain skills in a way that you can use the best damage skills as soon as they go off cooldown, fill the gaps with secon-tier damage skills, fill the gaps in those with autoattacking), but that in itself is not really as easy as it seems. And once you add to that the next part (line up damage buffs from traits/skills so you can get as much dps as possible covered by those buffs), it suddenly turns in a problem very few players can solve on their own.

Frankly, even many players that use the "meta" builds and rotations don't fully understand all the intricaties that had to be considered to make that build a success. Often, they just understand some high points, but miss a lot of less immediately visible interactions. So, how can players that do not follow third-party sites get all that?

Notice, that the game can't really help players to skip that step - only other players can do so. Why? Because, as i mentioned, the "proper" rotations are build-specific, and builds are a subject to change. There's no way game can keep up with all that, unless devs decide to completely freeze class balance - which means no new balance passes, or any other additions to balance (like new especs) ever. And somehow i don't think players would like that.

The whole build system is built in such a way that it is not easy to fully comprehend it and get maximum use of it. It is a system many players can use, but only few can master. This is completely intentional, btw. If Anet intended everyone to get to the same level of mastery over this system, they would not have bothered to make it so complex, but would have went with something much simpler. If they went with a system with much smaller variance between bad and good builds (and amount of choices was much smaller compared to what we have now), it would have made the work of balance team so much easier. And it's not like they didn't know that - they already had enough experience with this from GW1. And yet they decided to go with what we have now.

So, we're stuck with a freeform build system that makes it extremely easy to kitten your build in hundreds of ways, and makes making full use of it a challenge only a limited number of players can master. And not only (intentionally) does not teach you how to master the system, but, in fact, is created in such a way that makes teaching you that next to impossible. And all of it is by design.

By now, changing that would require tearing down the whole system and building up something new in its place. Which is not very likely to happen.

Edit:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ailuro.2780 said:Another common issue with new players who reach level 80 is they don't understand what an ideal rotation is.

That's not a problem at all.

Precisely. It's not a bug. It's a

feature

of this system. It is

completely intentional

.

[Ailuro.2780]

Frankly, even many players that use the "meta" builds and rotations don't fully understand all the intricaties that had to be considered to make that build a success. Often, they just understand some high points, but miss a lot of less immediately visible interactions. So, how can players that do not follow third-party sities get all that?

They won't, and that's alright. That's the part that is left to learning through time and effort.

Sure, the basis of each rotation may seem extremely simple (chain skills in a way that you can use the best damage skills as soon as they go off cooldown, fill the gaps with secon-tier damage skills, fill the gaps in those with autoattacking), but that in itself is not really as easy as it seems.

This. All they need to know is the principles, which is what forms the basis of any good teaching/training mechanism in game-design. It's up to the players where they take it. But having a lightpost than none is the way to go. Through more practise, and live like strikes, raids and fracs, they'll understand themselves but at least they know the direction to go in.