Why does nobody join for whisper of jormag?

[Asum.4960]

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

If that were how it happened, that would indeed not make any sense.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Cleopatra.4068" said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

Source? I mean besides the forum warriors here?

Have you been to a training raid or discord? Have YOU personally actually participated in this content or tried to enter it, or are you repeating forum nonsense?

Telling others that they are bad at something is not toxic (unless presented in a toxic way). I literally have to tell new raiders exactly what they are bad at, in order to be able to explain to them how to improve. That does not mean I scream or yell at them, feedback can be given in a direct yet constructive way. It's called a learning process.

Is it a fact that the vast majority of open world players are incapable? YES. That's not being toxic. That's making a statement about the ability of the average player in this game. Literally supported by a developer quote that the average damage of players is 1/10th of that of experienced players. AVERAGE damage.

Now anyone can take this information in any way they like. Some will take it as:"wow, I really need/want to improve." and then look for others to help them, or help themselves with guides and videos. Others will simply yell:"stop shaming me." and not change a single thing about their performance. Everyone gets to chose how they approach this.

[Cromx.3941]

Elitist idiots demanding Snowcrow's builds literally turned me off from strikes. The content is not that hard for starters and secondly it's getting pretty hard to find any content in this game that is not steamrolled by a few meta builds. Zero complexity in this game. Max power, max precision, max ferocity + cheese meta build and that is all this game is.

Its a borefest as 75% of armors are irrelevant and the same percentage of traits and builds are as well.

[Cuks.8241]

@Cromx.3941 said:Elitist idiots demanding Snowcrow's builds literally turned me off from strikes.

I have cleared all strikes repeatedly for months after the release and have never seen anyone demanding snowcrows builds. Yes, they will try to get the essential supports but rarely have I seen demands for specific DPS builds.

[Cromx.3941]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Cromx.3941 said:Elitist idiots demanding Snowcrow's builds literally turned me off from strikes.

I have cleared all strikes repeatedly for months after the release and have never seen anyone demanding snowcrows builds. Yes, they will try to get the essential supports but rarely have I seen demands for specific DPS builds.

Count yourself lucky. I experienced it a few times and my builds are generally high DPS or support, (I have 5 or 6 for guard for instance)...so it usually is not aimed at me, but I have seen people insta booted because of non-meta builds. Huge turn off, because I actually like the play the encounters the way they were meant to be played and not have OP meta builds essentially break the mechanics of the encounter.

I feel most people are just playing everything to RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH....and to what end? I enjoy a challenge and to actually experience the content. It's nice to require teamwork and not just faceroll builds.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Cromx.3941 said:Elitist idiots demanding Snowcrow's builds literally turned me off from strikes. The content is not that hard for starters and secondly it's getting pretty hard to find any content in this game that is not steamrolled by a few meta builds. Zero complexity in this game. Max power, max precision, max ferocity + cheese meta build and that is all this game is.

Its a borefest as 75% of armors are irrelevant and the same percentage of traits and builds are as well.

Like @"Cuks.8241" said, i never see ppl asking for specific builds for strikes (and even raids). You have often some role asked like heal, boon dealer, and dps (power or condi). As long as you perform your role, nobody will look at your build.But yes, if someone do less damage than the healer as a "dps", maybe they can ask for it..

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cromx.3941 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Cromx.3941 said:Elitist idiots demanding Snowcrow's builds literally turned me off from strikes.

I have cleared all strikes repeatedly for months after the release and have never seen anyone demanding snowcrows builds. Yes, they will try to get the essential supports but rarely have I seen demands for specific DPS builds.

Count yourself lucky. I experienced it a few times and my builds are generally high DPS or support, (I have 5 or 6 for guard for instance)...so it usually is not aimed at me, but I have seen people insta booted because of non-meta builds. Huge turn off, because I actually like the play the encounters the way they were meant to be played and not have OP meta builds essentially break the mechanics of the encounter.

I feel most people are just playing everything to RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH....and to what end? I enjoy a challenge and to actually experience the content. It's nice to require teamwork and not just faceroll builds.

Have to go with what @Cuks.8241 and @"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said, especially since you can't inspect a players build (you can technically check the skills they used in arcdps, but that would still not give any insight into their gear or traits and while not sanctioned gear inspection tools are available, I have NEVER seen anyone actually call out using one given the risk to their account). Suffice to say this is a LOT of extra work which no one will do when arcdps shows someone performing at 3k dps.

In general when players get kicked, they performed so poorly that they were removed. This is sometimes unwarranted, if the players damage was decent but not great. Most often the players damage was plain terrible. We are talking below support players level of damage terrible.

Now you might be a fringe case and just gotten unlucky, but unless you have been monitoring your own performance with acrdps, you might have been just as well someone who did very poor damage now blaming it on meta builds (and no, no one cares for the "claim" that damage is great. I've heard players claim their damage is great while it was absolutely abysmal. Test on the golem or with arc, or just don't bring it up).

[Asum.4960]

Likewise, I don't really see the meta obsession that much. Occasionally I see an LFG for something like Fractal CM runs demanding specific classes/meta builds, but I will just never join those, since in my experience those turn out to be actual toxic elitists, unlike the 99.9% of cases where that term is being thrown around (but even then, if they want to roll that way, that's fine - just gonna be without me).

In fact I frequently run "off-meta" stuff myself and make all my own builds when patches hit (although most of them generally emerge as meta over the next weeks or months, some are just for fun), but I know I can perform within the best 1-5% on those.

It's not off-meta builds/players that are the problem that gets usually called out or removed, it's downright terrible builds/players.

I've genuinely met players, both ingame and in these forums, who were flaming others about using/requiring meta builds or using ArcDPS, while being convinced that their build was better than anything on SnowCrows, since they saw skills like Whirling Axe reach cumulative numbers above enemies higher than 40k, thinking that represents their DPS..

That's why I dearly recommend anyone having an issue with meta builds and such get a DPS meter, not for any toxic reasons or requirements, but just to see how they actually perform themselves as a constructive reality check to improve from.

I'm convinced the vast majority of GW2 players think they are doing fine, and don't realise for example that in Meta events usually 3-5 players are literally doing 60-90% of the damage of a 30-50 player squad.Same in Strikes, Fractals, Raids - with people doing genuinely less than 10% the damage of a DPS getting combative when questioned if they are a healer/as what role they actually joined.

Nobody (generally, in my experience) cares what you play as long as you contribute/ are doing the job you joined in for.You might just be doing a lot, and I mean A LOT worse than you think you are.

That's precisely why DPS Meter's are so important.

1. For self-reflection and improvement, and
2. To keep meta/class discrimination in check, by allowing to simply check performance, rather than judging what someone plays.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Asum.4960 said:I would Thumbs up your post twice if I could.Nobody (generally, in my experience) cares what you play as long as you contribute/ are doing the job you joined in for.And what's truly ironic about this is that they used to....that class and build bias used to be a thing....but Arc is responsible for putting an end to it.

[radda.8920]

@Blude.6812 said:

@radda.8920 said:

@Blude.6812 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

Not all. Players just don't like raids. Never should have been introduced to game to satisfy a small group of vocal players.

So do you think arena should not try to satisfy all types of players in his community? in what honor?They should only do open world content with zerg bus spam 1, right?I've been playing guild wars since day 1 so it's been 16 years. I love the ''hard'' content and specifically the raids. Why shouldn't arena please regular players like me with differents tastes?

this level of selfishness ...there were already elite zones on guild wars1, I don't see why there wouldn't be any on gw2

Maybe it's still a minority of players who do raids but in general from my personal experience, they are the most regular players in the game unlike casuals players.Which means that they are also likely to buy a lot of stuff from the cash shop and donate money to arena. They are therefore far from being negligible.

Can't justify Raids to me in any way. "regular player unlike casuals" what ever that means.??? I play every day so I am casual?? or a regular player and play just about everything but PvP and Raids. AND I buy gems. And donate money?? Didn't know that Anet was a charitable organization and took donations. Learn something new every day. There is no 'Therefore' to your logic.

that's what I was saying, it's pure and hard selfishness. You don't like pvp and raids so the part of players who like it are not allowed to have content ...this makes perfect sense, players invested in pve hm (raids, cm fractal, strike) tend to buy a lot of things from the cash shop, so this is a super profitable player profile for arena.And a good mmo is a mmo which knows how to vary contents and attract a lot of types of players. Rarely have I seen a mmo be successful without a single raid or content close to it. In the top 10 of the most played mmo , all or almost all of them have raids so a lot of players like it and it attracts many people.

Personally I hate maps where you have to follow a bus and spam1 (brainless mode) and yet I understand that arena regularly adds more for players who like it. So why can't you be a little empathetic and put yourself in the opposite situation.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Is it really that outlandish or surprising that many, if not most experienced players eventually lost patience and just gated their groupsSo you did gate the groups for anyone wanting to joinAnd let's not forget - everybody can post an LFG.Players are not responsible for teaching the gameMakes you wonder why so people turn away from it most without even trying to find out if they would enjoy it@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.@Asum.4960 said:If that were how it happened, that would indeed not make any sense.I'm sorry you lost me here, didn't you load the gun for him.And..@mindcircus.1506 said:Me calling out the low-effort toxic casuals does not make me a raider.Stay classy.Low-effort toxic casuals and stay classy. Moving on.@mindcircus.1506 said:My pointing out the raiding community never asked for Strike missions does not make me a raider.I have 14LI.The OP's original question@vicky.9751 said:Why do people need to join a discord, put an api keyThe raiding communities gated approach that needs to see your 14LI are now in Strike missions, which is the whole point of this in the first place.All you need to do is to have one player with a commander tag open up an instance.

To be precise, you don't even need a commander tag. Anyone can create a raid squad (10 ppl) and enter the content (works for raids and strikes).But it is better to have a tag if want to organize it (and put markers for example).

[mindcircus.1506]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Is it really that outlandish or surprising that many, if not most experienced players eventually lost patience and just gated their groupsSo you did gate the groups for anyone wanting to joinAnd let's not forget - everybody can post an LFG.Players are not responsible for teaching the gameMakes you wonder why so people turn away from it most without even trying to find out if they would enjoy it@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.@Asum.4960 said:If that were how it happened, that would indeed not make any sense.I'm sorry you lost me here, didn't you load the gun for him.And..@mindcircus.1506 said:Me calling out the low-effort toxic casuals does not make me a raider.Stay classy.Low-effort toxic casuals and stay classy. Moving on.@mindcircus.1506 said:My pointing out the raiding community never asked for Strike missions does not make me a raider.I have 14LI.The OP's original question@vicky.9751 said:Why do people need to join a discord, put an api keyThe raiding communities gated approach that needs to see your 14LI are now in Strike missions, which is the whole point of this in the first place.All you need to do is to have one player with a commander tag open up an instance.

To be precise, you don't even need a commander tag.

Anyone

can create a raid squad (10 ppl) and enter the content.But it is better to have a tag if want to organize it (and put markers for example).My bad. Every time I want to use special forces to hit the DPS Golem it makes me tag up until the instance is created. I naturally assumed this was the case with raid instances.The more you know...

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Is it really that outlandish or surprising that many, if not most experienced players eventually lost patience and just gated their groupsSo you did gate the groups for anyone wanting to joinAnd let's not forget - everybody can post an LFG.Players are not responsible for teaching the gameMakes you wonder why so people turn away from it most without even trying to find out if they would enjoy it@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.@Asum.4960 said:If that were how it happened, that would indeed not make any sense.I'm sorry you lost me here, didn't you load the gun for him.And..@mindcircus.1506 said:Me calling out the low-effort toxic casuals does not make me a raider.Stay classy.Low-effort toxic casuals and stay classy. Moving on.@mindcircus.1506 said:My pointing out the raiding community never asked for Strike missions does not make me a raider.I have 14LI.The OP's original question@vicky.9751 said:Why do people need to join a discord, put an api keyThe raiding communities gated approach that needs to see your 14LI are now in Strike missions, which is the whole point of this in the first place.All you need to do is to have one player with a commander tag open up an instance.

To be precise, you don't even need a commander tag.

Anyone

can create a raid squad (10 ppl) and enter the content.But it is better to have a tag if want to organize it (and put markers for example).My bad. Every time I want to use special forces to hit the DPS Golem it makes me tag up until the instance is created. I naturally assumed this was the case with raid instances.The more you know...

Yep, if you already have a tag, it will use it ^^

[vicky.9751]

Tomorrow make a brand new account, quickly get your guy to 80, ascended everything and pop on down to the dome. Lay it on thick that you have never done a raid before but have watched the videos and come on here the following day to tell us how you failed miserably to find a game and it completely put you off the whole experience, or you can lie.My money say you will lie?You could always knee jerk reply straight away and say things like join a training guild(but not your one), try strikes first, or a favourite of mine come back when you've gain experience.

I'm not sure what you meant by this statement which seems to have a hostile undertone. Are you saying I am lying about my gear?

but in summary, if anyone actually wants to raid, ff14 has raids that take 10-20hrss of gametime to clear. Which is why im so confused about everyone gatekeeping raids in this game, which cant be as annoying as ff14 raids.Its just easier to enter raiding in ff14, put up a party listing, make a static for 2-3nights a week, or join pugs and wipe till you get the mechanics. But gw2's OWN COMMUNITY makes it hard to do any of that. If anyone /actually/ wants to help me on NA, then add me in game and lets gooooo??

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@vicky.9751 said:Its just easier to enter raiding in ff14, put up a party listing, make a static for 2-3nights a week, or join pugs and wipe till you get the mechanics. But gw2's OWN COMMUNITY makes it hard to do any of that.

And you can still do any of that in gw2. Anyone can put an LFG, join/create a static or join existing LFG (as long the requirements listed are met), so i'm not sure what you are trying to say...

[vicky.9751]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vicky.9751 said:Its just easier to enter raiding in ff14, put up a party listing, make a static for 2-3nights a week, or join pugs and wipe till you get the mechanics. But gw2's OWN COMMUNITY makes it hard to do any of that.

And you can still do any of that in gw2. Anyone can put an LFG, join/create a static or join existing LFG (as long the requirements listed are met), so i'm not sure what you are trying to say...

Like what i said in original post, people arent as inclined to join stuff blindly or with no commander. Perhaps it was this specific strike i was in LFG for, but nobody joined .

[Asum.4960]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vicky.9751 said:Its just easier to enter raiding in ff14, put up a party listing, make a static for 2-3nights a week, or join pugs and wipe till you get the mechanics. But gw2's OWN COMMUNITY makes it hard to do any of that.

And you can still do any of that in gw2. Anyone can put an LFG, join/create a static or join existing LFG (as long the requirements listed are met), so i'm not sure what you are trying to say...

I mean, they are technically correct in saying GW2's own community makes it hard.

@vicky.9751 said:put up a party listing

^and this is where fsr it falls apart in GW2. Not sure if that's what they meant, but yea.

Idk* why such a large portion of this community in this game just sits around and waits for.. no, expects someone else to make the perfect group for them, and if they don't, blames them for being toxic, elitist or most ridiculously, discriminatory.

If only half the people ranting on the forums and such about LI/KP requirements, claiming that's what is keeping them from the content, would instead connect with each other and make Raid squads/Fractal groups (or just post their own LFG without any requirements).

*actually I do know, but that's another story I've told plenty before

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@"vicky.9751" said:If anyone /actually/ wants to help me on NA, then add me in game and lets gooooo??

As you edited you post after i answered i'll add that :Since you're on NA, maybe you should try the "Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy" (discord.gg/gw2ra).I ll just copy paste their guild message :

Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy [NA] is a raid training Discord community that has been operating since June 2017. Our main objective is to offer a non-judgmental environment for new and more experienced players to grow, share, and acquire the needed knowledge to perform well.

Members are encouraged to learn wings and bosses at their own pace, either with scheduled runs led by our Instructors or through impromptu runs our community organizes. Our friendly Mentors on staff are available to help you learn the fundamentals of your profession, analyze your rotation, or answer specific questions you may have through 1-on-1 sessions.

We hope you'll join our welcoming community on your path to becoming a legendary raider!

[vicky.9751]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@"vicky.9751" said:If anyone /actually/ wants to help me on NA, then add me in game and lets gooooo??

As you edited you post after i answered i'll add that :Since you're on NA, maybe you should try the "Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy" (discord.gg/gw2ra).I ll just copy paste their guild message :

Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy [NA] is a raid training Discord community that has been operating since June 2017. Our main objective is to offer a non-judgmental environment for new and more experienced players to grow, share, and acquire the needed knowledge to perform well.

Members are encouraged to learn wings and bosses at their own pace, either with scheduled runs led by our Instructors or through impromptu runs our community organizes. Our friendly Mentors on staff are available to help you learn the fundamentals of your profession, analyze your rotation, or answer specific questions you may have through 1-on-1 sessions.

We hope you'll join our welcoming community on your path to becoming a legendary raider!

Did you read my initial post on the front page? : XI did join the raid academy, went through all their HOOPS of the api key, posted an introduction, and kept getting pinged all night for exp runs..and honestly just went to bed then.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@vicky.9751 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vicky.9751 said:If anyone /actually/ wants to help me on NA, then add me in game and lets gooooo??

As you edited you post after i answered i'll add that :Since you're on NA, maybe you should try the "Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy" (discord.gg/gw2ra).I ll just copy paste their guild message :

Guild Wars 2 Raid Academy [NA] is a raid training Discord community that has been operating since June 2017. Our main objective is to offer a non-judgmental environment for new and more experienced players to grow, share, and acquire the needed knowledge to perform well.

Members are encouraged to learn wings and bosses at their own pace, either with scheduled runs led by our Instructors or through impromptu runs our community organizes. Our friendly Mentors on staff are available to help you learn the fundamentals of your profession, analyze your rotation, or answer specific questions you may have through 1-on-1 sessions.

We hope you'll join our welcoming community on your path to becoming a legendary raider!

Did you read my initial post on the front page? : XI did join the raid academy, went through all their HOOPS of the api key, posted an introduction, and kept getting pinged all night for exp runs..and honestly just went to bed then.

Yes i read it and you just talk about a discord, but you never said which one. So i couln't guess.

[Asum.4960]

@vicky.9751 said:Like what i said in original post, people arent as inclined to join stuff blindly or with no commander. Perhaps it was this specific strike i was in LFG for, but nobody joined .

Do you remember the wording of your LFG?

[Asum.4960]

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:But it's always interesting how gross mischaracterisations of all Raiders as a toxic, elitist kitten get an amen brother and apparently are lauded and outstanding discussion contributions, while anyone mentioning the fact that some casual players quite frequently behave in a very toxic and entitled manner (which is partially what lead to gating of groups in the first place) are somehow making things personal or are stepping out of line.

I like a lot of the people that raid, some are really nice people. Before the gating got out of hand, I was invited by a really nice group to a raid to help me get my mastery, I had a rubbish build, I stumbled often and they already new that I would not be back for more because I can't use discord or teamspeak and without voice(severe Tourette's) I would be holding the team back. But they invited me anyway.It's not the raiders it's the mindset that believes that its ok to ask for an api key and LI that I find just plain wrong and now that has filtered down to strikes, described as cut down and an entry way to raids.

See, that sounds like an actual encounter with Raid Communities that I know, and exactly what any of my groups in the past would have done. Not LFG, and I can't speak about these large training communities, least of all NA.Point is, there is no monolith Raid community, and LFG sure as hell wouldn't be representative of it.

But if someone actually puts in some effort to find and join a nice community that Raids, they will find some of the most helpful and kind people that you'll find in this game. Still with bad apples, like everywhere else, but so far from the imagined hyper toxic, do 30k+ DPS and clear everything first try or get shamed with the dreaded DPS Meter nonsense that is constantly peddled in these forums, hanging like a cloud over the entire content, driving people away.

But here is why KP/LI gating for LFG is necessary. As the person who is not experienced and just wants to hop in, ofc it sucks and you think, they could just take me along, what's the harm? And I do empathise with that.But do empathise in turn with people doing the content daily/weekly, for weeks, months, years. Do you really expect them, that whenever their group needs to fill a few slots, especially vital ones to cover mechanics and such, that they just do an all welcome gamble to get burned 80% of the time or more (and yea, it's probably higher than that), day after day, week after week, year's on?

If an unexperienced player joins a group and wipes them for hours on end on new content for them, that's an experience for them.If experienced Raiders give someone new a chance every week they Raid to wipe or be delayed on content for hours on end which they can almost do in their sleep, that's mind destroying and sure to burn out practically anyone.At some point you just want some nice smooth and fast runs with players like yourself, you know, have fun.

Carrying someone that you know/is part of your community every once in a while is one thing and awesome to do, having to endure often toxic completely incapable strangers that you will never see again, week after week after week after week, something entirely else - and expecting Raiders to just do that on LFG for strangers, imo, pretty entitled thinking.

[Randulf.7614]

What was this thread about again? ;)

[Linken.6345]

@Asum.4960 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Is it really that outlandish or surprising that many, if not most experienced players eventually lost patience and just gated their groupsSo you did gate the groups for anyone wanting to join

Groups? Yes. Content? No.If you and other like-minded players want to make groups all over LFG asking for casual/unexperienced player's only since you don't want to deal with hardcore players, that would be well within your right, no?Would be pretty silly for me to then campaign everywhere how "filthy toxic casuals" are excluding people from content and how I now can't enjoy/play Raids anymore.. rather than just making my own group?

@MattDu.7123 said:Makes you wonder why so people turn away from it most without even trying to find out if they would enjoy it

It's almost like there is an extremely loud minority telling everybody how toxic, awful and hard Raids are. That would keep me away as well - in fact, it did for 2 years, until I wanted to check it out at least once before PoF launched, and got immediately hooked on the best content Anet has made to date as well as the friendliest communities I've met ingame.

@MattDu.7123 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Me calling out the low-effort toxic casuals does not make me a raider.Stay classy.Low-effort toxic casuals and stay classy. Moving on.

And finally this is not personal, its a debate and you are on the opposite side of the table, nothing more. Chill

I think within context is was very clear they were specifically calling out players who happen to be low-effort, toxic and casual, rather than calling all casual players low-effort and toxic..

But it's always interesting how gross mischaracterisations of all Raiders as a toxic, elitist kitten get an amen brother and apparently are lauded and outstanding discussion contributions, while anyone mentioning the fact that some casual players quite frequently behave in a very toxic and entitled manner (which is partially what lead to gating of groups in the first place) are somehow making things personal or are stepping out of line.

Well its quite clear that you can always punch up at evil raiders but never down at casual open worlders.

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Is it really that outlandish or surprising that many, if not most experienced players eventually lost patience and just gated their groupsSo you did gate the groups for anyone wanting to joinAnd let's not forget - everybody can post an LFG.Players are not responsible for teaching the gameMakes you wonder why so people turn away from it most without even trying to find out if they would enjoy it@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.@Asum.4960 said:If that were how it happened, that would indeed not make any sense.I'm sorry you lost me here, didn't you load the gun for him.And..@mindcircus.1506 said:Me calling out the low-effort toxic casuals does not make me a raider.Stay classy.Low-effort toxic casuals and stay classy. Moving on.@mindcircus.1506 said:My pointing out the raiding community never asked for Strike missions does not make me a raider.I have 14LI.The OP's original question@vicky.9751 said:Why do people need to join a discord, put an api keyThe raiding communities gated approach that needs to see your 14LI are now in Strike missions, which is the whole point of this in the first place.All you need to do is to have one player with a commander tag open up an instance.

To be precise, you don't even need a commander tag.

Anyone

can create a raid squad (10 ppl) and enter the content (works for raids and strikes).But it is better to have a tag if want to organize it (and put markers for example).

Its also good to have a tag so not someone else can join the squad and start kicking people left and right.

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:But it's always interesting how gross mischaracterisations of all Raiders as a toxic, elitist kitten get an amen brother and apparently are lauded and outstanding discussion contributions, while anyone mentioning the fact that some casual players quite frequently behave in a very toxic and entitled manner (which is partially what lead to gating of groups in the first place) are somehow making things personal or are stepping out of line.

I like a lot of the people that raid, some are really nice people. Before the gating got out of hand, I was invited by a really nice group to a raid to help me get my mastery, I had a rubbish build, I stumbled often and they already new that I would not be back for more because I can't use discord or teamspeak and without voice(severe Tourette's) I would be holding the team back. But they invited me anyway.It's not the raiders it's the mindset that believes that its ok to ask for an api key and LI that I find just plain wrong and now that has filtered down to strikes, described as cut down and an entry way to raids.

@mindcircus.1506 said:The low-effort "open world pve" population in this game actively rebels against any content that has a fail condition. Doesn't even have to be hard. Just needs to have a reasonable chance at failure. People wouldn't touch Octovine if it failed 2 out of 5 times.

Where is the difference if you exclude based on LI to guarantee a win. And "Asum.4960" this is the original quote the toxic and casual were added later and it seems to imply the whole open world pve population but I may of misinterpreted that as well.

I think this is a stumbling block that's hurting the game. But as I said at the beginning "I don't want raids or strikes to die, it seems like it could be great end game content but if you don't meet the majority of the population half way, they will."

So why cant you join voice and mute mike and just listen to the call outs.Its a bit faster to say 1 more to circle marker instead of typing it as an example.

[Katary.7096]

@Nilkemia.8507 said:It's as if adding raids to Guild Wars 2 was a bad idea from the start.Is that true for all of the game's neglected/ abandoned content (WvW, sPvP, Dungeons, Guild Missions) or is it only raids that should not exist?

@vicky.9751 said:Like what i said in original post, people arent as inclined to join stuff blindly or with no commander. Perhaps it was this specific strike i was in LFG for, but nobody joined .Maybe most people who play ff14 are much better at playing ff14 than most people who play gw2 are at playing gw2? Joining stuff blindly seems to indicate that players have faith that their teammates are going to be capable, no matter who they end up playing with.Though WoJ is not exactly the most popular of the strike missions either, so that might have something to do with it.

@MattDu.7123 said:Tomorrow make a brand new account, quickly get your guy to 80, ascended everything and pop on down to the dome. Lay it on thick that you have never done a raid before but have watched the videos and come on here the following day to tell us how you failed miserably to find a game and it completely put you off the whole experience, or you can lie.My money say you will lie?You could always knee jerk reply straight away and say things like join a training guild(but not your one), try strikes first, or a favourite of mine come back when you've gain experience.So essentially you are challenging people to start raiding from scratch, as opposed to using their accounts with geared characters, LI/ KP and contacts from FL or Guilds. And in case someone actually does that successfully you simply accuse them of lying about it preemptively. If you make it clear from the get-go that you are not going to believe them anyway, why would anyone waste their time trying to prove you wrong? Because you already have your mind made up about the matter and don't want your opinion changed?