Why does nobody join for whisper of jormag?

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's alot of reasons this happened. Alot are talked about here, but I'll list a few of my own:

• Its unrewarding and a waste of time; T3-T4 Fractals are barely worth it, Strike Missions and raids aren't worth it at all. Open-world maps like Auric Basin and Silverwastes still give massively superior gold returns per hour with Spirit Shard promotion.Raids, on a weekly clear offer competitive rewards with the best gold farms in the game. T4 fractals dailies when done quickly are the best rewards in the game.Silverwastes has not been a top gold farm for almost two years.
• In regards to raids in particular, Legendary armor is more easily farmed from competitive modes; no one makes it for the PvE skin.Not only does the WvW armor set take weeks longer to make due to the time gating of skirmish claim tickets, it's far more expensive to make the precursor sets. The first raid armor precursor set can be had via collection in 2 or three days.A quick perusal of the people flexing their skins in EotN shows that plenty of people make the raid armor, particularly the heavy set.
• The LFG system is just bad, has too many categories and is full of jargon. Players also always expect experienced (exp), with a dwindling player base where most experienced players have quit due to lack of content.People put up zero expectation LFGs for group content all the time. These squads fill up far faster than the squads that set expectations.
• Enrage timers are the antithesis to everything this game was made for and most of the player base will avoid them outright. Even the change to give world bosses timers was highly critisised back in the day for introducing DPS checks.This game, and in turn this franchise, has always been about an accessible levelling experience and progressively challenging end game. Hard Mode is the reason plenty of people still play GW1.To paint the "community's" reaction to World Boss timers as the correct take in the long run?Come on, have you done Fire Elemental or Covington lately?The devs tried to hodgepodge raids into a game that was never designed for them. Scaling them back to mini-raids doesn't change that, and the popularity of dungeons and Fractals reveals the truth about what players always wanted.The popularity of dungeons?You mean the content that had such a high abandonment rate that they needed to completely redesign the whole concept of 5-person content in this game call it fractals?If dungeons had been popular Arenanet would still be making them.I find it really ugly when we see the same people time after time come out to dance on the grave of raids and the communiy who enjoys them, all the time screaming at the top of their lungs "SEE...I WAS RIGHT....NO ONE LIKED YOUR STINKY RAIDS AND YOUR TOXIC CULTURE...IF PEOPLE LIKED THEM ANET WOULD STILL MAKE THEM"....then turn around and wax poetic about dungeons and how there should be more of them.

[kharmin.7683]

@Asum.4960 said:2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.On what do you base this statement?

[Katary.7096]

@MattDu.7123 said:I haven't. Isn't that why we are holding a debate to understand each side of the argument. Why do you need my opinion changed.I don't need your opinion to change, I'm not even sure if I want your opinion to change. It is about the attitude put on display. Getting into a debate with someone who makes it clear early on that they have a stance on the subject and will not change that stance no matter what information comes up during the debate strikes me as somewhat, pointless? Disheartening? And that you come across as someone who isn't open-minded about the topic was precisely the impression I got from you challenging raid veterans to start from square one and try to get into raiding right now and immediately following up with: "If you say that you did it, I assume that you are lying". If you met a stranger who makes such a statement, would you not get a similar impression? To be fair, over the course of your conversation with Asum that impression turned out to be wrong.

@Asum.4960 said:Ofc you can always argue some people might have silently recognized them and accepted them because of that through all those tries, but generally the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. That if you are a honest, motivated and competent player, with some struggle, you can get in to that content just fine, if you are willing to put in that time and work.Just like all non famous Raiders did.One can argue that it should be easier, but not that it's impossible.

In any case, demanding that all the players who picked themselves up and worked to get into that content to just stop having fun with what they worked for (smooth and fast clears) and welcome everyone who didn't (and in most cases will continue to not do so, even if welcomed in), isn't reasonable.I agree with everything you wrote here.As @MattDu.7123 said, you need to meet the population half way - but that goes both ways.

And Raiders for their part put in enormous amounts of work into written guides, videos, benchmarks, gearing guides, build guides, rotation breakdowns, training guilds, etc. - Everything you need to be able to raid, except internal motivation which only you can bring.But you can't help those who aren't willing to be helped.And this is where you got me confused. I can see how one can argue that the raid community is trying to meet new people half way, with the resources they create and the training runs they organize. But what is the half way point for the other side of the issue? Having internal motivation?

@"mindcircus.1506" said:How are you being locked out of content that anyone can just open an instance for?The people who are being asked that question continuously seem to mix up "access to the content" with "access to the playerbase of the content". And given that there are so many of them they could have formed their own groups by now.

[Obfuscate.6430]

I'm going to reply as one of the "casuals" that thought 3K dps was huge (lol!)Why don't I do Raids, or Strikes? Do I hate hard content?The short answer is that I don't hate hard content at all. The difficulty decreases once you know what to do. Groups fail mostly due to inexperience/don't know what to do.When I was trying the lowest hanging fruit of the difficult stuff for achievements: the challenge modes of the CRMs and wasn't quite sure what to do, I joined a pug and was immediately shouted at for not knowing what exactly to do.My very first time trying the Boneskinner strike - I didn't know what to do. On the second try we had people quitting and people calling me stupid.I tried to make my own LFG including that I was inexperienced. Guess how many joined.

The other issue is that you NEED to repeat this content A LOT to get the rewards that you really want: the runic armor, or finishing the meta achievement. So what happens is people want to clear it as fast as possible which REQUIRES meta party compositions and builds.

So: it's difficult to learn how to even do it when people are being horrible in general, and then you get these requirements to pass it quickly.Those , from my personal experiences are the two real barriers.

As for Raids: there is the option to join a training guild.If you have a chaotic work schedule you're just fucked so that content is forever barred from me unless I buy a carry.Ultimately I have written them off but I think it's still valuable to have them. The "vocal minority" argument was really insulting. Raids help keep a game around imo even if I will never be able to play them.

[Asum.4960]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.On what do you base this statement?

I can't find anything in the Guild Wars 2 Official Forums: Code of Conduct that should prevent me or others from answering this question by discussing publicly available NCSoft quarterly financial reports, nor how directly answering a question could be considered "off-topic" while posing it is fine, but alas, I just will have to refer you to those.But just for the record, as otherwise it's fairly difficult to have an open and honest discussion with just one side of an argument being suppressed, this was addressed by multiple people in detail.

@Katary.7096 said:

As @"MattDu.7123" said, you need to meet the population half way - but that goes both ways.

And Raiders for their part put in enormous amounts of work into written guides, videos, benchmarks, gearing guides, build guides, rotation breakdowns, training guilds, etc. - Everything you need to be able to raid, except internal motivation which only you can bring.But you can't help those who aren't willing to be helped.And this is where you got me confused. I can see how one can argue that the raid community is trying to meet new people half way, with the resources they create and the training runs they organize. But what is the half way point for the other side of the issue? Having internal motivation?

It's fairly generous to call it half-way, but yes, that is what I meant.Even just recognizing that Raiders aren't "the enemy", but a valuable part of the community that's just trying to have fun with each other like everybody else, and recognizing the value of the resources generated by them and showing some minimum motivation/effort to utilize them to work themselves into the content (if so desired) instead of just casting blame for not being carried in, would imo make a massive difference for this community.I think there is just a severe lack of self-awareness and a toxic degree of entitlement in some parts of the community which is really just shooting themselves in the foot more than anything else.

@"Obfuscate.6430" said:I'm going to reply as one of the "casuals" that thought 3K dps was huge (lol!)Why don't I do Raids, or Strikes? Do I hate hard content?The short answer is that I don't hate hard content at all. The difficulty decreases once you know what to do. Groups fail mostly due to inexperience/don't know what to do.When I was trying the lowest hanging fruit of the difficult stuff for achievements: the challenge modes of the CRMs and wasn't quite sure what to do, I joined a pug and was immediately shouted at for not knowing what exactly to do.My very first time trying the Boneskinner strike - I didn't know what to do. On the second try we had people quitting and people calling me stupid.I tried to make my own LFG including that I was inexperienced. Guess how many joined.

The other issue is that you NEED to repeat this content A LOT to get the rewards that you really want: the runic armor, or finishing the meta achievement. So what happens is people want to clear it as fast as possible which REQUIRES meta party compositions and builds.

So: it's difficult to learn how to even do it when people are being horrible in general, and then you get these requirements to pass it quickly.Those , from my personal experiences are the two real barriers.

As for Raids: there is the option to join a training guild.If you have a chaotic work schedule you're just kitten so that content is forever barred from me unless I buy a carry.Ultimately I have written them off but I think it's still valuable to have them. The "vocal minority" argument was really insulting. Raids help keep a game around imo even if I will never be able to play them.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate posts/mindsets like this, especially after a while on this forum.You know exactly what keeps you from getting into the content all without descending into a hate brigade on a whole group of people to compensate for your own, very understandable, limitations (in your case mostly time).No "us versus them" that prevents any sort of real discussion about the problems and possible solutions.

For players like you I really wish Anet would (and can) do something to make the content more accessible, be it adding something like selectable checkpoints in Raid Wings to make more bite sized single boss runs a possibility (without needing instance openers), or just better game tutorialization in general, so 3k DPS doesn't seem like a good number anymore for the average player^^.

The difficulty decreases once you know what to do. Groups fail mostly due to inexperience/don't know what to do.

This strikes me as particular important point, as I think many times when I argue for increased ramping difficulty for OW/Story content, people panic and interpret it as me asking for suddenly tough as nails "Raid like" story - when really people wouldn't notice the slow increase in difficulty much if at all (if done well), since their skill increases proportionally by being challenged that way, leading to the content being just as easy relatively speaking, while producing higher skilled players on average - closing the massive gap between the average and proficient players somewhat, making it in turn less necessary to gate groups for more challenging content in order to prevent frustrating failure.

As for Strikes/DRM's, the bad experiences you've made, while somewhat understandable, are unfortunate.If you think some tips on builds or the fights could prepare you better for that content should you want to try again, feel free to message me.

So: it's difficult to learn how to even do it when people are being horrible in general

I feel like that's an unfortunate reality with humans and life in general, yea.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I was exceptionally lucky in finding a small group of incredibly competent players who weren't toxic, they helped me with that strike—otherwise I wouldn't have my Whisper of Jormag mini, which I treasure. I mean, my whole thing is Icebrood Represent, so my main would feel less without it.

I'm not fond of forced grouping, I'm really not. That was the only one I did. Like I said, I got lucky. It's largely because furries are furries and furries are almost always a good time. I know how ludicrously hard it is to find people who group in an MMO and aren't toxic. That group is... odd to say the least. Incredibly competent, extremely competent, whilst also utterly casual. Far more competent than any hardcore players I've had the grotesque misfortune of grouping with. That might be the trick, I suppose.

Find a group of incredibly competent casual players who don't play group content often, like maybe once a week!

I understand, of course, that this is easier said than done. They're out htere, though. Even if as rare as a unicorn. This is the problem with forced grouping, I suppose. If you force people to group, you're forcing people to group with toxic people, they don't really have a choice. Then the whole thing just gets worse as toxicity spreads. Hence why I think that all dungeons, strikes, and whatnot should be soloable. If people could group as they wanted, groups like the one I found would probably be more abundant. It's a weird paradox, but that is kind of how that works.

Anyway, I got lucky. I hope the OP does too.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Asum.4960 said:I'm convinced the vast majority of GW2 players think they are doing fine, and don't realise for example that in Meta events usually 3-5 players are literally doing 60-90% of the damage of a 30-50 player squad.Same in Strikes, Fractals, Raids - with people doing genuinely less than 10% the damage of a DPS getting combative when questioned if they are a healer/as what role they actually joined.[...]

:+1: to your whole post. You nailed it.

I, personally, don't use any DPS meter, but have been flamed on occasion for noticing that the group's DPS was sub par (it's really not hard to notice in a Strike Mission by simply looking at how fast or slowly the boss' health bar wanes). Sure, with a DPS meter I could point fingers, but not everyone is open to constructive criticism. If the game per se had a built in DPS meter, each player would know what they are contributing and perhaps would rethink their stance on the matter.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Obfuscate.6430" said:The other issue is that you NEED to repeat this content A LOT to get the rewards that you really want: the runic armor, or finishing the meta achievement. So what happens is people want to clear it as fast as possible which REQUIRES meta party compositions and builds.I grinded out this armor by running my own "all welcome" Strike groups (mostly) on my decidedly off-meta Plaguedoctor's support Scourge.I never asked a single person to change their build or gear. I worked with what I got when I put up my own LFG.Any and all toxicity was dealt with by kicking and since I said "all welcome" no one was ever called out for poor performance. Those who tried calling others out where shown the door, regardless of how much the brought to the table.No enforced Meta BuildsNo Speed RunningRarely had to wait more than 10 mins for a full squad.Setting up my own LFGs with appropriate expectations in the description was all it took.What you have said about requirements flies in the face of verifiable reality.So: it's difficult to learn how to even do it when people are being horrible in general, and then you get these requirements to pass it quickly.People being "horrible" is group content is a relative label. What one person deigns are horrible is just fine by another.Do I think calling out someone's poor performance during/after an encounter is horrible?I'm not a fan and I make that expectation clear on my squads.But I recognize the world is full of different people interacting in different ways and what some people see as "calling people out" is actually seen by others as a call for improvement for the betterment of group performance.Different strokes.In almost every group of 10 people in my "all welcome" strikes you would get at least one player who gratuitously wasted the rest of the group's time. They would show up at Shiverpeaks Pass, and after being told multiple times by multiple people to click the shrine to skip the jumping portion you would see them... completely ignoring chat and struggling to complete the jumps. No acknowledgement of messages in chat... no nothing.While 9 other people waited.Isn't this "horrible" behavior?On an almost daily basis I would run into a Longbow Ranger who wouldn't stack with the group no matter how many times they were asked "stack please". Isn't ignoring a squad commander "horrible" behavior?So yes.... maybe it's horrible to be call someone out for poor performance........to you.Maybe it's horrible to someone else to show up in a squad and not meet some clear requirements .The answer is joining squads who's values align with your own, and if they do not exist making them yourself just like the speed runners do.As for Raids: there is the option to join a training guild.If you have a chaotic work schedule you're just kitten so that content is forever barred from me unless I buy a carry.Joining Raid Academy Discord will show dozens of newbie friendly raid groups taking off at all hours every day.No statics, no guild, no set times.I highly recommend looking at it as I believe it would might help align your ingame desires with your schedule.

[kharmin.7683]

@Asum.4960 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Asum.4960 said:2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.On what do you base this statement?

I can't find anything in the

Guild Wars 2 Official Forums: Code of Conduct

that should prevent me or others from answering this question by discussing publicly available NCSoft quarterly financial reports, nor how directly answering a question could be considered "off-topic" while posing it is fine, but alas, I just will have to refer you to those.But just for the record, as otherwise it's fairly difficult to have an open and honest discussion with just one side of an argument being suppressed, this was addressed by multiple people in detail.

Thanks. I did see those posts. Sorry that they were actioned. I wasn't trying to argue the point, though. I was just curious on what basis that statement was made. I accept your previous response.

[Nilkemia.8507]

@Katary.7096 said:

@Nilkemia.8507 said:It's as if adding raids to Guild Wars 2 was a bad idea from the start.Is that true for all of the game's neglected/ abandoned content (WvW, sPvP, Dungeons, Guild Missions) or is it only raids that should not exist?

Maybe. Although, there's a big difference between most (if not all) of what you listed and raids : Those examples were in the game from the beginning or very early on. Raids were added years after, when ArenaNet could've (and should've) known better from seeing what people played in the game. In addition, some of that content ended up being abandoned due to bad design choices or changes made by them to begin with. Raids were inevitably going to go the same way. After all, it happened to the dungeons, and raids are basically bigger, more annoying/frustrating dungeons from my perspective.

[Vayne.8563]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I, too, lament that so few people use the LFG. Last time I downloaded discord it messed with how my speakers and mike worked every time I used it. Because I can't use headphones I have to mute the entire game's audio, because otherwise I can't hear what people are saying.

Discord has an attenuation feature that allows the game to be muted to your specification only when people are talking. It works really well. There's a slider to set how much you want the game to mute, either fully or most of the way or only a little. It works for me.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Katary.7096 said:Maybe most people who play ff14 are much better at playing ff14 than most people who play gw2 are at playing gw2?Trust me on this, they aren't. It's just a byproduct of different game design.

Basically, in ff xiv the game gives weaker players a leg up. In gw2, it actively hinders them. Basically, the same skill difference gaps have a much, much smaller consequences in former than in latter. And to a much higher degree than it might seem on the surface (by, say, just comparing dps output differences), because there's more than one such a design feature, and they happen to magnify each other to a massive degree.

@"Asum.4960" said:As long as OW and Story content is so incredibly easy that it produces players playing the game at 1/10 the efficacy of a Raider, not even understanding core game mechanics, since they are simply never tested or required there, a method of gating high end content for randoms will be necessary - or the content would simply be unplayable, with the people who know how to play and having earned smooth and fun runs with lot's of practice and effort simply leaving out of frustration (which is already happening too much).It's not the story content that "produces" those players. It's core game design. If you made the story content harder, you would not get more skilled players. What you would get would be less players.

Now, that doesn't make the group prefiltering any less necessary, of course

LI/KP isn't what doomed endgame content, it's what desperately has been holding it together by a thread in the face of complete lack of content and severely flawed tutorialization, grouping and communication in the rest of the game.Again, you are right about the necessity of kill proof/other prefiltering methods. You are wrong in thinking that better "tutorialization, grouping and communication in the rest of the game" would have any significant imact on the situation. The problems are buried much more deeply in the core game design.

To just remove any way of filtering players would do nothing but end in a toxic, frustrating nightmare of people with wildly different skill levels and expectations clashing while getting nothing done, and kill the content quicker than anything else.That is unfortunately true, which is why any attempt to do so is bound to fail. To succesfully remove KPs, you would need to remove the reason people are using them first.

[Katary.7096]

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:Maybe. Although, there's a big difference between most (if not all) of what you listed and raids : Those examples were in the game from the beginning or very early on. Raids were added years after, when ArenaNet could've (and should've) known better from seeing what people played in the game. In addition, some of that content ended up being abandoned due to bad design choices or changes made by them to begin with. Raids were inevitably going to go the same way. After all, it happened to the dungeons, and raids are basically bigger, more annoying/frustrating dungeons from my perspective.Oh come on, "maybe" is effectively a non-answer here. It is fair to point out that raid content differs from the other examples by having been introduced into the game way later and arguably at a time where development of the game went into a different direction. At the same time you yourself are calling raids "basically bigger, more annoying/frustrating dungeons" and dungeons were part of the game back when it released. To me that sounds as if you are not being 100% consistent here.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Trust me on this, they aren't. It's just a byproduct of different game design.Since I don't play ff xiv myself I have little choice in the matter.Basically, in ff xiv the game gives weaker players a leg up. In gw2, it actively hinders them. Basically, the same skill difference gaps have a much, much smaller consequences in former than in latter. And to a much higher degree than it might seem on the surface (by, say, just comparing dps output differences), because there's more than one such a design feature, and they happen to magnify each other to a massive degree.Okay, I assume that you know what you are talking about. Wouldn't the end result still be that people are more likely to expect that a random player can handle the challenges of instanced group content in ff xiv more so than in gw2?

[DeWolfe.2174]

I really despise Raids and Strikes because they are visual abominations. Remember when we couldn't even get rid of Hobosacks because the Devs wanted there to be visually distinct participants in combat? Now look at Raids and Strikes and they are a nothing but a kaleidoscope of colors that are not distinct at all. You can't see your characters or the enemy in most cases. Just playing the hud for skill rotations and watching for red circles is all the Raids and Strikes boiled down to.

Open World and WvW content is still the best GW2 content. The instanced content just takes the game down.

Editing to add my extreme dislike for instanced content was born out of FotM. I can still feel the disgust and ire of being stuck in hours long fractals when they first were introduced. Then to be lucky if not dropped out and not able to reenter. It was infuriating and unrewarding content not worth my time.

[Game of Bones.8975]

Never heard of it

[Zyreva.1078]

@DeWolfe.2174 said:I really despise Raids and Strikes because they are visual abominations. Remember when we couldn't even get rid of Hobosacks because the Devs wanted there to be visually distinct participants in combat? Now look at Raids and Strikes and they are a nothing but a kaleidoscope of colors that are not distinct at all. You can't see your characters or the enemy in most cases. Just playing the hud for skill rotations and watching for red circles is all the Raids and Strikes boiled down to.

Open World and WvW content is still the best GW2 content. The instanced content just takes the game down.

Editing to add my extreme dislike for instanced content was born out of FotM. I can still feel the disgust and ire of being stuck in hours long fractals when they first were introduced. Then to be lucky if not dropped out and not able to reenter. It was infuriating and unrewarding content not worth my time.

Because open world and wvw totally aren't a complete visual (and otherwise) clusterkitten, riiight ...

[Fangoth.4503]

@"Cleopatra.4068" said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

Back to the original question:I'd say i have bad experience with no req group in strikes. its often a mess boonwise and DPSwise so unless seeing a descent level on first 3 strikes (shiver frae bears) i won't even try to go in a whisper/bone if there is no reqs.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Katary.7096 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, in ff xiv the game gives weaker players a leg up. In gw2, it actively hinders them. Basically, the same skill difference gaps have a much, much smaller consequences in former than in latter. And to a much higher degree than it might seem on the surface (by, say, just comparing dps output differences), because there's more than one such a design feature, and they happen to magnify each other to a massive degree.Okay, I assume that you know what you are talking about. Wouldn't the end result still be that people are more likely to expect that a random player can handle the challenges of instanced group content in ff xiv more so than in gw2?Yes, but that's due to difference in core game design, not to difference in players. While the end result may seem the same, both cases require completely different solutions, so it's better not to try to mix them up.

I know it's easy to blame the players - especially those whose playstyles and values are different than our own (there's been a lot of that on all sides of the discussion), but that's hardly constructive when the base issue lies somewhere else completely.

[Cleopatra.4068]

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@"Cleopatra.4068" said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

[Fangoth.4503]

@Cleopatra.4068 said:A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.ofc there is toxic people in raid that will curse at beginner, same can be observed at any map meta that fail, in fractal, in dungeon, in wvw, in pvp. But defining a content based a vaste minority have inapropriate behaviour isn't the way to go imo

If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.Its not necessary to have it, there is a lot of player that play without arcdps and still are able to practice their golem rotation and improve just by copying bench videos and looking at the in chat dps. If someone comes and tell: i know nothing but i installed arcdps he will be asked to leave from mosts group that ask LI/KP. Arcdps doesn't make you better just by installing it but its a tool to improve.I've never seen any training guild that require arcdps. Some require log to acces harder boss training but still its fine if you don't have it as you can just interact with others player so then send you the log.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

[Cleopatra.4068]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

Really? You cannot think of a single, impolite, elitist response in this thread? I think you need to re-examine your definition of impolite and elitist.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

Really? You cannot think of a single, impolite, elitist response in this thread? I think you need to re-examine your definition of impolite and elitist.

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

[Cleopatra.4068]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

Really? You cannot think of a single, impolite, elitist response in this thread? I think you need to re-examine your definition of impolite and elitist.

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

Like what you are doing now?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

Really? You cannot think of a single, impolite, elitist response in this thread? I think you need to re-examine your definition of impolite and elitist.

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

Like what you are doing now?

Where have I insinuated, claimed or fabricated anything? Let's go through what I wrote:

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

Personal opinion on what I have read in this thread. I am neither attacking or defending anyone. I am making a statement on what I have read. Now going into detail: some claims about performance in this thread are based on statistics and data. Usually data produced by only 1 side. A bit unfair, given only 1 side in this argument even accumulates data to use. What you called "elitist".

@Cleopatra.4068 said:What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

Again, I am stating what I find impolite. Reading through this thread, and considering the fact which I just mentioned, about only part of the participants using any measurable data as far as performance goes. I am making a statement about fabrications in this thread. The same goes for calling out the repeated widespread "elitists" are toxic mantra by often people who haven't even participated in the content. Everyone is free to share their experience with this content. Here I'll start: 3.6k LI/LD. Very long time raider. Have lead multiple practice raids and fractal groups. Have been part of multiple statics over the years as well as PUG groups. Have experience with large part of this games community in all types of content. I have yet to see this widespread "raiders are all elitist and toxic" claim made on the forums. I am defending my opinion based on my personal experience.

If you feel personally offended by any of this, maybe you need to reexamine why you are even considering this might apply to you.