Why does nobody join for whisper of jormag?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cleopatra.4068Like i mentioned already, slinging blame left and right is hardly constructive and solves exactly nothing. There's no point to it whatsoever.

(as a caveat, while i tend to disagree with @Cyninja.2954 on many, many points about raids, the discussions with him so far have been really civil. There are cases of toxic behaviour that do appear in multiple threads about the subject (and, yeah, on both sides), but you are really attacking the wrong person here.

[Vilin.8056]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I don’t understand the raiding community at all. They complain they never get new raids. Then they yell at anyone who wants to play raids that they are all too incompetent, lazy, casual, and suck at the game to play with them. So no one plays raids. So ArenaNet doesn’t make anymore raids. So raiders yell at all the people who they wouldn’t let play raids for not playing raids. It just goes around and around in a circle that somehow never seems to be the raiding communities fault.

If you want people to play raids, stop insulting people who want to play them and let them play with you. Stop creating artificial barriers to growing the raiding community by placing ridiculous hoops for people to jump through in the way.

Want to play raids with us? First, install a third party application, then spend hundreds of hours whacking a training golem until the third party application says your DPS perfectly matched our arbitrarily defined measure of competence. Sure....I’ll get right on that. Then, join a training guild and spend months running training runs once a week until you have obtained our arbitrarily defined measure of KP and LI that indicates you aren’t too noob to live. That doesn’t sound condescending, insulting, rude or overbearing at all. Who wouldn’t want to play with a community of condescending, insulting, rude, overbearing elitists like that?

The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

How comes there is soooo many player that are crazy competant without installing a third party program, nor doing 5min of golem required to do acceptable dps/maintain good enough boon and there close to no lfg "come as you are"? I don't get it... if none of these are needed how comes I rarely ever sees groups with no requirements and when there is any it's either a dramatically low level or mostly filled with player from high level guild/static?IMO the problem is people having trouble to determine whether or not the content is suitable to their gameplay and that they rather blame the others for it than adapt their gameplay to the content.

I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

I don't recall a single response in this thread which mirrors what you said. Even the "elitist", as you decided to name part of the player base while remaining "polite", while disagreeing with the problem have been giving advice and recommendations. You're basically the only one making this claim as far as I can tell, maybe referring to subjective perception, experience or hear say, I wouldn't know. You never did answer if you personally have actually tried accessing this content and which hurdles came up for you.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.

A 3rd party application is not needed. There is a damage golem available to all. In fact it is absolutely possible to prepare, get ready and practice completely in game.

The damage golem is placed right next to the raid entrances.

Really? You cannot think of a single, impolite, elitist response in this thread? I think you need to re-examine your definition of impolite and elitist.

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

Like what you are doing now?

Where have I insinuated, claimed or fabricated anything? Let's go through what I wrote:

Nope, I see people disagreeing, stating opinions or facts about performance. I don't consider direct wording to be impolite.

Personal opinion on what I have read in this thread. I am neither attacking or defending anyone. I am making a statement on what I have read. Now going into detail: some claims about performance in this thread are based on statistics and data. Usually data produced by only 1 side. A bit unfair, given only 1 side in this argument even accumulates data to use. What you called "elitist".

@Cleopatra.4068 said:What I do consider impolite is insinuations, unsubstantiated claims and strait up fabrications.

Again, I am stating what I find impolite. Reading through this thread, and considering the fact which I just mentioned, about only part of the participants using any measurable data as far as performance goes. I am making a statement about fabrications in this thread. The same goes for calling out the repeated widespread "elitists" are toxic mantra by often people who haven't even participated in the content. Everyone is free to share their experience with this content. Here I'll start: 3.6k LI/LD. Very long time raider. Have lead multiple practice raids and fractal groups. Have been part of multiple statics over the years as well as PUG groups. Have experience with large part of this games community in all types of content. I have yet to see this widespread "raiders are all elitist and toxic" claim made on the forums. I am defending my opinion based on my personal experience.

If you feel personally offended by any of this, maybe you need to reexamine why you are even considering this might apply to you.

Sweetheart, reread the thread and see if you cannot discern why casual players might be offended. It might be helpful to you as a person.

Sure, meanwhile do the same and consider how players might feel about your entrance with widespread unsubstantiated insults.

There is 2 sides to this, and neither side is free of blame.

Agreed.It's becoming increasingly draining that every time somebody post a topic here, we'll have end up with these off-topic, community-insulting trash talk about raid or raiders from some similar minded people. This topic isn't even a raid debate.

[Katary.7096]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Yes, but that's due to difference in core game design, not to difference in players. While the end result may seem the same, both cases require completely different solutions, so it's better not to try to mix them up.Yeah, I think I got that. Due to design choices ff xiv has much less variance in player performance than gw2. Hedging against negative variance means people playing gw2 are more selective about grouping up than players of ff xiv.I know it's easy to blame the players - especially those whose playstyles and values are different than our own (there's been a lot of that on all sides of the discussion), but that's hardly constructive when the base issue lies somewhere else completely.I am not sure that agree on the issue. From what you have told me, I have to say I prefer the design approach of gw2 to ff xiv.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Katary.7096" said:Yeah, I think I got that. Due to design choices ff xiv has much less variance in player performance than gw2. Hedging against negative variance means people playing gw2 are more selective about grouping up than players of ff xiv.Actually we don't know this. We have zero data about the statistical variance between players in either game.All we have on the GW2 side is an offhand comment by a now departed Game director who provided zero context for a statement about one group of players doing, on average, 10 times the damage of another group of players. Were they all doing the same content? Were they all in similar situations? Were the newer players downed while more experienced players stayed on their feet because they understood the mechanics better?All we have is an "off the cuff" comment by Mike Z who had a penchant for hyperbole and poor salesmanship, (a game director who refereed to Ascended Cooking and Sun's Refuge as "expansion level content") as he was trying to sell encounters meant to address a content gap.On the Final Fantasy side we don't even have this level of information, but a quick look at FF14's content creators and forums shows this same issue is every bit the pain point in that game as it is in this one. The "high performers" in FF complain that the low-effort players "don't even read thier tooltips" and debates rage about the possibility of bans for players using ACT.I am not sure that agree on the issue. From what you have told me, I have to say I prefer the design approach of gw2 to ff xiv.The real point is that without the data we don't know.Without the actual data, pointing to the performance difference between players in GW2 as some deep systemic flaw in design is just armchair dev talk. It blatantly ignores the fact that World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, ESO and this game all struggle with the exact same issue despite using drastically different systems of player progression.

[Vissarion.6509]

Because it's super bugged.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Cleopatra.4068" said:I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for.Actually isn't the problem people

just seeing

teams with higher expectations of performance than they are ready to fulfill then hopping on the forums demanding Anet do something about it rather than starting their own squad of likeminded people?Isn't there , at the root of this "problem", a group of people who prejudge certain content and those who enjoy it without even interfacing with it?

There create 4 difficulties of Raids ,like FractalsSame-minded people , will flock to their skill lvl .Some Dev-Dude will need 9-10 days to calculate with a math formula how much damage/boon will be needed to kill the boss , in each tier ...ONCE (in the next Raid , the same formula will be used)And allow players to report (mute/wont get end reward participation(from players that don't abuse it)) players that link Damage meters scores , in chat .Then create the same gold ratio/repeat every day , from Fractals and rather than using the fractal keys to open the chest , you should use the KP-LI .

Problem solved

They only people that will get affected:a) gold-Raid-Sellers (whose are having a blast right now:))b) Tier 4 , will be exlusive for Tier 4 peoplec) People will whine that they are forced to join Raid every day (didn't Raid offered lowered Rewards ?)

This simple steps , will help the Steam Population too , rather than letting the history to repeat itself

[Astralporing.1957]

@Katary.7096 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:I know it's easy to blame the players - especially those whose playstyles and values are different than our own (there's been a lot of that on all sides of the discussion), but that's hardly constructive when the base issue lies somewhere else completely.I am not sure that agree on the issue. From what you have told me, I have to say I prefer the design approach of gw2 to ff xiv.Indeed, in this case, what is a problem for some may be a feature to others. My point stands regardless - the things people are arguing about are a direct consequences of game design. Sure, we might like said design and not want it to change (not like there's even a sliver of chance of it changing now anyway), but then complaining about issues that are a byproduct of said design (or pushing blame for those issues on other players) seems quite hypocrytical to me.

Basically, gw2 design causes players to be far more selective about grouping in more high-end content than in other games, and makes it impossible to create a working automatic grouping system for said content (i said working, because the "public" version we have now for strikes does not work, obviously).

If we like the design, we have to accept that and move on, instead of trying to complain how one group of players are gatekeeping the content, or another group has a "wrong" approach to playing and doesn't want to "git gud". If however we want those two things (being selective, and no possibility for auto queue) to change, then we have to accept that the base design has to change first (and, again, no point in blaming players for anything).

[Cuks.8241]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, gw2 design causes players to be far more selective about grouping in more high-end content than in other games, and makes it impossible to create a

working

automatic grouping system for said content (i said working, because the "public" version we have now for strikes does

not

work, obviously).

Well from my experience with WoW and various korean grinds, gw2 has the least selective process. Maybe Wow is different now but when I was raiding (Woltk mostly) it went like this. First, you had to have a good enough gear score / ilvl, than you had to pass gear inspection and lastly the dps check which was performed before the start or somewhere until first boss of the raid. I'll not even go into korean grinds because there you had to pretty much sell your soul to be viable for top content.

[Asum.4960]

@"DeWolfe.2174" said:I really despise Raids and Strikes because they are visual abominations. Remember when we couldn't even get rid of Hobosacks because the Devs wanted there to be visually distinct participants in combat? Now look at Raids and Strikes and they are a nothing but a kaleidoscope of colors that are not distinct at all. You can't see your characters or the enemy in most cases. Just playing the hud for skill rotations and watching for red circles is all the Raids and Strikes boiled down to.

Open World and WvW content is still the best GW2 content. The instanced content just takes the game down.

Editing to add my extreme dislike for instanced content was born out of FotM. I can still feel the disgust and ire of being stuck in hours long fractals when they first were introduced. Then to be lucky if not dropped out and not able to reenter. It was infuriating and unrewarding content not worth my time.

This ought to be one of the strangest points against Raid's I've ever heard - considering it's literally the opposite way around to me.That's what makes Raids (Fractals, Dungeons, PvP) so fantastic to me - it actually feels like that's what the game was supposed to support with it's design, unlike the Open World content we have.

In Raids, or instanced content in general - as well as PvP, there is visual clarity, the mechanics of the game matter, supportive boons matter, blocks matter, boon stripping matters, the clear boss mechanics and tells matter, movement and positioning matters, teamplay and coordination matter - actually playing together, personal responsibility, preparation, thinking about your build, adapting to the situation, growing both as a player and a community matter.

Meanwhile in OW, nothing matters, no thinking, no builds - or rather if you do, mobs fall over when looking at them. Bosses and metas are a completely ridiculous light show in which you often genuinely don't even see the boss, inducing nausea with low framerates. All everybody does (and at certain points can do due to framerate/skill lag) is auto attacking or pressing buttons at random/off cool down, invisible boss attacks behind 200 effects either never touch you or oneshot you due to scaling. There is no need to coordinate save for some laughable baseline at some events of "simultaneous" kills (which people just shout at and troll each other for), no one needs to coordinate builds, contribute certain things, have their actions and contributions have meaning. Just show up and press one.

And I mean, it's fine to still like that. I don't quite get it, but that's okay, there is a place for that in the game ofc. But to bring this point against Raids/instanced content is more than strange.

@Cleopatra.4068 said:I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for. The second problem is elitists insulting large swaths of the player population and making themselves completely unsympathetic to a large percentage of the player base.

You can discuss the first problem politely without contributing to the second problem. A calm, logical explanation of your viewpoint is perfectly reasonable.

A nasty “omg, I hate all the casuals, they are horrible morons who are ruining the game” explanation of your viewpoint is unhelpful and provokes people who ordinarily wouldn’t care about the conversation at all into arguing with you.

Where are these elitists insulting all casual players though? Blaming them for ruining the game?Hell, I myself am a casual player since months, if not over a year now - and have been very much so for years playing the game since launch up until around sometime before PoF. I had never raided before in any other game either, had the same ungrounded fears about DPS meters, the same false preconceptions about Raids and that culture I heard about when they came to GW2.My opinions and thoughts are formed from both sides, transitioning back and forth from casual and hardcore play, from solo player to being part of a community and back. From first learning the game to eventually becoming proficient at it over the course of years. From struggling with social anxiety and hating forced grouping, to giving it a chance and having the best time gaming as part of a community, Raiding.And rarely if ever do I see this "Us versus them" from the hardcore side (well, aside from meming around in private as response to the predominant public anti-hardcore sentiment of the community, or at least a vocal part of it).

Yet even just in this thread, in this case by you actually, you get posts like this:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:The hoops aren’t really even the problem. The problem is that only kitten want to play with kitten. GW2 apparently doesn’t have enough kitten playing to support the raiding community.

Which while really on the tame side for this forum, calls all Raiders [insert censored swear], and insinuating that the primary problem Raids face is that there simply aren't enough bad people around to play them.Other's celebrating that this part of GW2, which doesn't have to affect them in any way, is dead. Gloating about a part of the community being depressed and not getting content. I just don't get it.Yet coming even close to talking that way about the casual side of players, no matter how constructive, I can almost guarantee will get you timed out or banned from the forums. With just carefully dancing around the fact that there might be a problem on that side of the community too, and that there is a toxicity and entitlement problem there, being a sure way to get flooded with warnings, making even just having a discussion incredibly difficult.

And yet still, it's always the narrative of the evil toxic elitists going after the casual players. I just don't see it.

What I often try to do, and see others like @Cyninja.2954, @"mindcircus.1506" etc. do is trying to reach out, trying to bridge that gap. But part of that for this community is to recognize how hostile the narrative against the Hardcore community is, as well as that things aren't exactly all peachy on the others side either.That yes, while there is an extreme minority of actual "toxic elitists", that it's incredibly overblown, and that a big part of the issue is a glaring skill gap that simply makes some players (unfortunately the majority) not capable of breaching into some of this game's content. That that is their responsibility and that expecting hardcore players to just welcome them anyway, at 1/10 of the performance, simply is an unhealthy and unrealistic amount of entitlement - and imo more toxic for the community at large than the few people actually demanding specific classes or builds or looking like a hawk at DPS meters to call people out, which is like 1% of the 1% of the whole GW2 community.

What we can all agree on I think is that LFG/Playing with randoms is far from an ideal experience in many if not most cases. But that isn't an elitism problem, or toxicity of hardcore players specifically.That's people on the internet (and let's be honest in RL) period.That's unfortunately something you have to learn to shrug off wherever you go and interact with other players/people, especially if they rely on you and you fail.To pin that as a problem inherent to hardcore players (aka people who simply play a lot and enjoy to improve themselves and to be challenged) is imo fairly dishonest.

But at least to me, while there is a place for it, neither is it in turn desirable to "solve" that by creating and making everything an environment where no one has to ever interact with each other, rely on each other, where there is no failure state, where no contribution or lack of matters, where you just show up and win automatically to collect meaningless rewards, where there is nothing to achieve or overcome. Sure, most of OW technically reduces the toxicity you experience from people, but imo at the cost of almost everything that makes an MMO, or even RPG's in general, great. It robs you of those moments when you do find a good community, do stumble upon and interact with good people, do overcome challenges together - that very thing where multiplayer games, and especially MMO's shine and form memorable experiences that makes players stick around and keep an MMO healthy over years.

TL;DR:Well, that escalated. Not even I want to read all this and sum it up.

[Obfuscate.6430]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Obfuscate.6430" said:The other issue is that you NEED to repeat this content A LOT to get the rewards that you really want: the runic armor, or finishing the meta achievement. So what happens is people want to clear it as fast as possible which REQUIRES meta party compositions and builds.I grinded out this armor by running my own "all welcome" Strike groups (mostly) on my decidedly off-meta Plaguedoctor's support Scourge.Rarely had to wait more than 10 mins for a full squad.Setting up my own LFGs with appropriate expectations in the description was all it took.What you have said about requirements flies in the face of verifiable reality.

I'm afraid you missed a few key points of my post when replying to this, but I'm going to thank you right now for taking all this time to reply anyway, because your information will help someone even if it does not necessarily help me in my circumstance.

The points you missed is that I did make my own LFG , but also that my work schedule is chaotic.This poses two interconnected issues. I do not always get to play the content when it is new, or while there are still many LFGs for the content, or even at peak hours on my server.

People being "horrible" in group content is a relative label. What one person deigns are horrible is just fine by another.

I mean - I suppose some people are in to being called names. I don't want to kink shame anyone so don't misunderstand me.However, objectively, verbally abusing people who are trying to learn is considered "horrible".Verbal abuse comes in the form of name calling (swear words, slurs, you name it.) , shaming "you have that much AP but don't know how to do this by now? ", kicking without saying anything - that is being horrible .

I understand people being frustrated but being civil takes little effort, and would go a long way to make people more open to learning.

As for Raids: there is the option to join a training guild.If you have a chaotic work schedule you're just kitten so that content is forever barred from me unless I buy a carry.Joining Raid Academy Discord will show dozens of newbie friendly raid groups taking off at all hours every day.No statics, no guild, no set times.I highly recommend looking at it as I believe it would might help align your ingame desires with your schedule.

I have joined 3 raid training guilds in my time so far and out of all those months I was with them, I was only able to make it to a single attempt which resulted in a couple of rage quits. The discord servers are massive and hard to follow. My very first attempt required me to re-gear my chrono and learn a new rotation. This took a month with the time (and energy) I could dedicate to it. I got to make 1 attempt on a training run (mentioned above). I might also add that single day I had off is the only one that aligned with every one else's schedule at the time. After everyone quit that day, saying we'd trying it another time - Arenanet ...did things to chronomancer, requiring me to get new gear and learn a new rotation again.That sort of stuff, with the learning curve, on top of my schedule - makes Raids not worth it for me personally, if not entirely out of my reach.

For people who have the time and really want to go for it: I highly recommend it. It's good advice.

[Fangoth.4503]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Cleopatra.4068" said:I think there are two entirely different problems going on in these conversations. One problem, as you say, is people who overestimate their abilities and try to join content that they aren’t ready for or aren’t suited for.Actually isn't the problem people

just seeing

teams with higher expectations of performance than they are ready to fulfill then hopping on the forums demanding Anet do something about it rather than starting their own squad of likeminded people?Isn't there , at the root of this "problem", a group of people who prejudge certain content and those who enjoy it without even interfacing with it?

There create 4 difficulties of Raids ,like FractalsSame-minded people , will flock to their skill lvl .Some Dev-Dude will need 9-10 days to calculate with a math formula how much damage/boon will be needed to kill the boss , in each tier ...ONCE (in the next Raid , the same formula will be used)And allow players to report (mute/wont get end reward participation(from players that don't abuse it)) players that link Damage meters scores , in chat .Then create the same gold ratio/repeat every day , from Fractals and rather than using the fractal keys to open the chest , you should use the KP-LI .

Problem solved

They only people that will get affected:a) gold-Raid-Sellers (whose are having a blast right now:))b) Tier 4 , will be exlusive for Tier 4 peoplec) People will whine that they are forced to join Raid every day (didn't Raid offered lowered Rewards ?)

This simple steps , will help the Steam Population too , rather than letting the history to repeat itself

it would be nice but sadly i doubt the current dev know how old bosses were coded and so something that look simple may take much more time than expected :/

[Katary.7096]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Katary.7096" said:Yeah, I think I got that. Due to design choices ff xiv has much less variance in player performance than gw2. Hedging against negative variance means people playing gw2 are more selective about grouping up than players of ff xiv.Actually we don't know this. We have zero data about the statistical variance between players in either game.All we have on the GW2 side is an offhand comment by a now departed Game director who provided zero context for a statement about one group of players doing, on average, 10 times the damage of another group of players. Were they all doing the same content? Were they all in similar situations? Were the newer players downed while more experienced players stayed on their feet because they understood the mechanics better?All we have is an "off the cuff" comment by Mike Z who had a penchant for hyperbole and poor salesmanship, (a game director who refereed to Ascended Cooking and Sun's Refuge as "expansion level content") as he was trying to sell encounters meant to address a content gap.On the Final Fantasy side we don't even have this level of information, but a quick look at FF14's content creators and forums shows this same issue is every bit the pain point in that game as it is in this one. The "high performers" in FF complain that the low-effort players "don't even read thier tooltips" and debates rage about the possibility of bans for players using ACT.I am not sure that agree on the issue. From what you have told me, I have to say I prefer the design approach of gw2 to ff xiv.The real point is that without the data we don't know.Without the actual data, pointing to the performance difference between players in GW2 as some deep systemic flaw in design is just armchair dev talk. It blatantly ignores the fact that World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, ESO and this game all struggle with the exact same issue despite using drastically different systems of player progression.

You are correct, we don't know that. We cannot know that because we don't have the information. I should have phrased my response to Astralporing in a way that suggests that their explanation can be correct, not that it is in fact correct.

[keenedge.9675]

Strikes and Raids have never been attractive to the majority of gw2 players. The people who like them are on hiatus until new content arrives.

[LONGA.1652]

Average Rider want a run without a Hiccup. Posting in LFG invite all kind of players including people who don't read. Those who don't read are usually people who don't know boss mechanic which is important those hard strike.And it usually wiping the raid if not handled properly.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.Its not necessary to have it, there is a lot of player that play without arcdps and still are able to practice their golem rotation and improve just by copying bench videos and looking at the in chat dps.

But this also requires outside sources. The game is not helping in any regard. If it wasn't for meta build sites, YouTube etc, many wouldn't know how to improve.

[Fangoth.4503]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.Its not necessary to have it, there is a lot of player that play without arcdps and still are able to practice their golem rotation and improve just by copying bench videos and looking at the in chat dps.

But this also requires outside sources. The game is

not

helping in any regard. If it wasn't for meta build sites, YouTube etc, many wouldn't know how to improve.

I'd rather have it in game with a weekly reward for breaking 80/90/95/99+ benchmark so player have a better motivation to practice but sadly never gonna happen ?. Put soth like 1/2/5/10 MC as reward and tomorrow all are grinding golem and Devs need to increase all worldboss hp ?

[Mungo Zen.9364]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Cleopatra.4068 said:If a 3rd party application is necessary to know whether you are ready for that content or not, then there is something wrong with the user interface. All of that information should be able to be determined from the game itself.Its not necessary to have it, there is a lot of player that play without arcdps and still are able to practice their golem rotation and improve just by copying bench videos and looking at the in chat dps.

But this also requires outside sources. The game is

not

helping in any regard. If it wasn't for meta build sites, YouTube etc, many wouldn't know how to improve.

I see this said a lot but, am I wrong in feeling that every MMO I have played required outside resources? Or, perhaps put better, player developed resources? Are there MMO's that actually guide players to effective builds within the game itself? Explain rotations and priorities?

I think it fair to say that most games have player developed resources to make up for the shortfall in developer created guides. I used Dulfy and Curse for several games over the years, who knows how many WoW resource sites I used, same for Diablo and PoE, heck, my partner typically has a website open while learning stuff for Animal Crossing!

I see the shortfall is in player education. Games do provide some education, partially through tips, but primarily through the experience of playing the game. Experienced players have the education through trial and error, discussions, reading and research. But just because they have that experience, doesn't mean they are able to translate that in a teachable way to new players.

The question I keep thinking about though is motivation.

What motivates a player to want to go into instanced content in the first place?

I raided heavily in other games because I was playing with groups of players who I enjoyed playing the game with. Getting Server First or World First kills with a group is an amazing feeling to share with friends, or perhaps coworkers you could say, who have all put the time in together to defeat a challenge. but even after the first kills, sharing the experience every week was more about who we were playing with than the content we were playing.

I haven't found a group of players in this game who I would consider raiding with, and that may very well be a function of where I am at with games at this point as much as it is the people I have met in this game. As raiding (and instanced content in general) has changed over the years to offer more PUG options, in an attempt to provide easier access, it has felt that more groups of players are focused on the rewards and not the group experience.

[yukarishura.4790]

@radda.8920 said:

@Blude.6812 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

Not all. Players just don't like raids. Never should have been introduced to game to satisfy a small group of vocal players.

So do you think arena should not try to satisfy all types of players in his community? in what honor?They should only do open world content with zerg bus spam 1, right?I've been playing guild wars since day 1 so it's been 16 years. I love the ''hard'' content and specifically the raids. Why shouldn't arena please regular players like me with differents tastes?

this level of selfishness ...there were already elite zones on guild wars1, I don't see why there wouldn't be any on gw2

Maybe it's still a minority of players who do raids but in general from my personal experience, they are the most regular players in the game unlike casuals players.Which means that they are also likely to buy a lot of stuff from the cash shop and donate money to arena. They are therefore far from being negligible.

I totally agree with everything you said, this is why I opened this thread like a week ago...https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/125224/eod-expansion-should-have-new-raid#latest

[yukarishura.4790]

Since people are so allergic to the word "raid" they should just make some boss fights with 3 levels : easy, medium and hard, and call it GAUNTLET and have it a daily rotation with different bosses, like fractals, but 10 man...

[Xanadrine.4352]

@Zephire.8049 said:Part of it is that you can join all strikes via the portal in Eye of the North and not have to go through LFG at all. If you haven't tried that yet, that may be worth a shot just to see what happens.

There's also the issue that Whisper is known to be buggy and one of the worst strikes for finding a competent group (the worst being Boneskinner) which cuts down on the number who are interested in it or willing to PUG someone when there's a guildmate or someone trusted knows someone else who can fill that role in 5 minutes.

LFG does need an overhaul, though, with more attention brought to it since a lot of people don't know it's there.

I tried that, never anyone joins.

[Xanadrine.4352]

@Nilkemia.8507 said:It's as if adding raids to Guild Wars 2 was a bad idea from the start.

I dont think the problem was adding raids but rather how they added them. All games have this kind of top end content that only a few can do. In the old days that is...they learned a hard lesson when very few players saw the content, they changed it so everyone could. You have to think about your players, so many players tell me they wish they could , but they are not good or elite enough to go. So the demand is there, but the implementation is lacking. Keep the hard core modes for the hard core raiders, make a less punishing mode for the non raiders. I have said this many times, it took blizzard what 6/7years to realize raids were leaving out 90% of the playerbase. So they changed it. Now its one of the most popular things to do in that game so called casuals can see that content and get some rewards.

[Biermeister.4678]

Because people treat Living World Content like elite raids and only want certain builds

[maddoctor.2738]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:a) KP

Well you should be happy that they did not add any relevant KP for Strike Missions. What happened then? Oh right players started using another form of KP, requiring KP from Raids to do content that's supposed to be the bridge for Raids... excellent idea to not have KP in content!

And if we go back to the old days, before we got any form of KP, we had achievement points (lol), or exclusion of specific builds (no Necromancer, Engineer or Ranger allowed). But yes KP is the problem.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Scaling them back to mini-raids doesn't change that, and the popularity of dungeons and Fractals reveals the truth about what players always wanted.

Dungeons were popular once indeed, before they put a limit to how many times you could run one path in a day. Oh wait it wasn't "dungeons", it was Citadel of Flame path 1.Fractals have been very popular at times too. The Swamps of the Mists era, and the "40 farm (or was it 50?)" era was the time when Fractals peaked in popularity. Or rather Swampland and Molten Boss did.

It does look like the most popular parts of the game are those that give the most rewards with the minimum effort and with minimum time investment.

[Miguron.3067]

I think people are too restrictive about classes, its already hard for new players to learn the mechanics, imagine worrying about peaky squad leaders