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Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]


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There is a distinct difference between "lacking higher intelligence" and "lacking any intelligence", which: That points to the latter, not the former. I'm not doing anything "just to perpetuate an arg

@"Bast.7253" said:I mean, honestly, I just played the whole episode and I still have no idea what's going on. We get 2 lines of dialogue that seem like they're meant to progress the story but none of it makes any sense. Konig kind of summed it up for me.

We have Aurene and Jormag talking.. with this awkward pause every few seconds where Aurene's being "interrupted" but then Jormag's voice takes like 20 seconds to start..

That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?

Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

Then later we get this whole Braham thing.. exchanging witty banter with the spirits of the wild.. that just spent who knows how long being harvested by Jormag.. only to rush right into the den of ANOTHER elder dragon with the only explanation being that Primordus is... dumb or something? And that they're going to become somekind of mind to guide Primordus? But it doesn't work so they need Braham to become a champion to help bind him?

Like, why does this story feel like a game of Madlibs?

And then Braham just shows up in a DRM and superman jumps away at the end with no dialogue? lmao.

I think that scene with Jormag is meant to show her type of Insanity being a bipolar disorder type of insanity.

Jormag is all kind and nice but then have mental outbursts due to how viewing any other species as lowly animals. She always had this habit of looking down on the other species of the world within her own wording in past dialogues in the stroyline though not everyone will pick up on it since she phrase her words in ways of trying to care about them but it is more acts of pity for beings lower than her.

As for Braham, I say his current lack at speaking shows how little amount of himself is left at this point with what is left being focused on Jormag to guide Primordus. We do see him attempt to talk but his mind at this point has become so primal due to Primordus influence he can't even properly talk anymore. All Braham can do is grunt and say a few words at this point due to become more of a beast now.

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The Braham-Primordus thing is... interesting. It seems that the distinction that's being set up with Primordus compared to the other Elder Dragons, even Kralkatorrik, is that Primordus has always been the animalistic force of nature that acts without any overarching strategy that the Elder Dragons in general were portrayed as in prerelease marketing. Braham is, essentially, trying to pull a Snaff, controlling the dragon from within - but where Kralkatorrik did have a conscious mind (possibly two at war with each other, in fact), Primordus lacks sapience at all and might be more malleable as a result. Plus, the plan of Braham and the Spirits does seem to only ride on being able to direct Primordus just long enough to get Primordus and Jormag to kill each other, while Bangar basically wanted t turn Jormag into his own personal WMD.

The big difference, though? We thought we had a chance to stop Bangar. We had several episodes where, ultimately, the goal was to catch up to and stop Bangar. What Braham did, though, was presented as a fait accompli - by the time the Commander knew what Braham was planning, it had already happened. I didn't get the impression that the Commander approved of what Braham did any more than the Commander approved of what Bangar was trying to do (apart from the fact that Bangar wanted to wage a xenophobic war, anyway) - but the Commander had their burst of outrage, realised that there was nothing they could do to change it, and accepted that this was the new reality they had to account for. What's done is done, and whether Braham made the right call or not, the Commander will deal with it when the time comes.

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:I mean, honestly, I just played the whole episode and I still have no idea what's going on. We get 2 lines of dialogue that seem like they're meant to progress the story but none of it makes any sense. Konig kind of summed it up for me.

We have Aurene and Jormag talking.. with this awkward pause every few seconds where Aurene's being "interrupted" but then Jormag's voice takes like 20 seconds to start..

That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?

Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

Then later we get this whole Braham thing.. exchanging witty banter with the spirits of the wild.. that just spent who knows how long being harvested by Jormag.. only to rush right into the den of ANOTHER elder dragon with the only explanation being that Primordus is... dumb or something? And that they're going to become somekind of mind to guide Primordus? But it doesn't work so they need Braham to become a champion to help bind him?

Like, why does this story feel like a game of Madlibs?

And then Braham just shows up in a DRM and superman jumps away at the end with no dialogue? lmao.

I think that scene with Jormag is meant to show her type of Insanity being a bipolar disorder type of insanity.

Jormag is all kind and nice but then have mental outbursts due to how viewing any other species as lowly animals. She always had this habit of looking down on the other species of the world within her own wording in past dialogues in the stroyline though not everyone will pick up on it since she phrase her words in ways of trying to care about them but it is more acts of pity for beings lower than her.

As for Braham, I say his current lack at speaking shows how little amount of himself is left at this point with what is left being focused on Jormag to guide Primordus. We do see him attempt to talk but his mind at this point has become so primal due to Primordus influence he can't even properly talk anymore. All Braham can do is grunt and say a few words at this point due to become more of a beast now.

Not bipolar. Abusive.

Jormag's diatribe at Aurene was the classic "if I'm hurting you, it's because you forced me to by not doing what I said, so it's really your fault I'm hurting you, not mine!" speech of an abuser who loses control.

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@"Bast.7253" said:Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

Pretty sure the "animal" is Primordus. Jormag previously stated how they are in a prison because of Primordu's.

Pretty much it seems like Jormag and Primordus represents different aspects of the mind. Jormag is analytical while Primordus is instinctual. By caaling Priomrdus an animal, they are saying Primordus is a creature that nearly completely operates on instinct. (Of course on earth, we are surprised how many animals actually do have reasoning skills beyond what our consensus has historically been). So the term animal is just used to describe something with "animal" level intelligence, Which colloquially means something that relies on more instinct than logic.

Anyone notice that Aurene said Jormag's frozen spell is using corrupted magic? Does this mean that the frozen ice is indeed as mixture of ice and crystalline magic? I am not sure what Aurene means by saying "corrupted" magic. It doesn't seem to be the same meaning of corrupted as say when used in "dragon corruption". Not sure what that means. Seems like the writers may be getting ahead of themselves with dialog based on things that where never explained well.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest
and worst
idea straight from the forums.

They no doubt came up with the idea before it popped up on the forums, given all the DRMs were in the gw.dat with the first Champions chapter, but this story direction is just... makes zero kitten sense in every way. Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actions, despite the fact that we just spent
the entire season
stopping Bangar from trying to do
the exact same thing
that Braham chose to do.

Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.

Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've
literally been killing his champions left and right
. Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that
we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works.
Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is
pure genocide
and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side. Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent
five years
establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was
because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style
.

What.The.kitten.

This isn't just activley contradicting older lore, it's contradicting lore established from the current season and
even within the fractured episode of Champions itself.

I was flabbergasted over the sylvari reveal and how Anet had put a lot of effort to establish firmly that sylvari are
very different
from dragon minions to the point where there weren't even no similarities, but blatant contradictions to the theory, yet still went with the revelation, but this... this is by far worst. Because if there isn't some major plot twist, we're not just contradicting established lore, we're making the half of the entire game's plot until now pointless and redundant drama.

This is story writing on par to Game of Thrones Season 8. Hell, I can almost mirror it with subpar subversions of expectations (that don't work because they were brutally obvious about these subversions), reversal of character development (in this case, Braham's Season 4 development getting reverted back into his Season 3 whiny self), and blatant contradiction of its own dialogue.

I've been hesitant about bothering to continue into the story with buying EoD, and was actually thinking the story would get better once ANet finally stops having enough source material to just pull the nostalgia factor, and hoping that despite the constant turnover of lead writers that there'd be a semblance of consistency growing once writers get to do their own original thing in the world.

But seriously now. I don't think I'll be buying End of Dragons if the writers can't even maintain consistency within their own releases.

The only sollace in this whole episode is that the commander is either oblious to what ppl are doing and or doesnt agree the whole way but god damn Aurene has sole serious moodswings during the episode.

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Jormag isn't bipolar. It isn't madness to want to be free from abuse. I mean, what they talk of being chained to isn't Bangar, it's Primordus. They've had to feel his aggression all their life and they just want to be free from it. They're traumatised by his abusive ways, as I've said prior, and an abused person can find it hard to extricate their freedom from the death of their abuser.

This hits really close to home for me as someone who went through an abusive period. The abused accused of madness, claimed as a burden, when all they want to do is be free of pain and ensure that others don't have to feel that same pain. The reason that Jormag rushed to place people in cryostasis is because they couldn't stand it anymore, they care as much as they say they do. Jormag's "madness" is trauma.

It's funny because so many of my life's experiences are echoed in Jormag's story. This is painful to talk about but I guess I'm going to do that. Jormag is salty about mortals in a way that tugs at my heart—I'm not fond of most humans. The reason why? In my life's experiences, the majority will be taken in by dark triad monsters, they'll enable them, turning a blind eye to that monster's evil. If that monster is abusing someone? They blame the victim.

I'm a highly sensitive person and I have to applaud Debra Wilson's voice acting because it's managing to hurt me. I can hear the pain in Jormag's voice whenever they talk about Primordus, it's obvious what's going on. The only reason they haven't spelled it out for everyone is because a.) their pride, and b.) it's really difficult to talk about traumas.

That Jormag sounds feminine is another factor aswell—victim-blaming is far more likely to occur if the victim isn't male. That's statistically a thing, there's evidence of that stretchin back decades and it still hasn't been fixed. The bias is that the woman must be being irrational, crazy. Even mad, perhaps.

Jormag has threatened to freeze the world prior as a way to spare it from Primordus's abuses. What they did at Lake Doric was them coming through on that, not willing to put up with Primordus anymore. The thing is? No matter how you look at it, if Jormag had done nothing, most of Lake Doric's villagers would've died. By doing what Jormag did, they saved them from the vindictive abuses of Primordus.

Marjory pointed out as well that Primordus's actions are incredibly vindictive. That's a trait abusers have—they're naturally vindictive. There's a large body of study on this as well that you can look into, that abusers are inherently prone to rage and vindictive behaviours. Which shouldn't be too surprising but there you go.

This story feels like reliving my worst experiences vicariously through the abstraction of dragons and I can tell you that it isn't great. I imagine that some of you probably figured out what my particular stake is with this story already.

Having negative feelings and a distaste for suffering is very common amongst sensitive victims of abuse. I liked Jormag from the first time I heard them in the Icebrood Saga trailer. There was something about the way they said "suffering." It wasn't angry, nor misleading, nor manipulative. It was impained. They really didn't like suffering, it bothered them immensely. And yes, Debra Wilson really pulled that off. She's a bloody brilliant voice actor to be sure. I became fond of Jormag almost immediately for that reason.

In this chapter, just... hearing the way they speak of Primordus? If you have any experience with abuse, you're bound to hear it in their voice. I don't know how you couldn't. They're not angry about being chained to Primordus, they're traumatised. They're anxious, they're in pain, they're lashing out. They just want to be free.

It's not madness to want to be free from abuse, so I really feel for them. I really do.

No story has ever managed to hit me this hard. I think it's in part how everything was setup so that the majority would blame the victim, and once victim-blaming starts it's just a ball that keeps rolling without anyone ever stopping to question it.

I just want everything to be okay for Jormag. They deserve to be free of pain.

Ah, this couldn't be any more personal.

What's really funny about this is that I was abused so much that I'm traumagenic, plural. You might've noticed that, too. There are distinct consciousnesses at work here, I am not a single entity. DID, if you really prefer that. Early on, Tom Abernathy confirmed that Jormag is based on plural experiences. This couldn't be any more personal...

Anyway, one of my headmates is a point of comfort to me—an imaginary friend I had as a child. They were a dragon with the power of mind and their goal was to do all they could to halt suffering, often by forcing impulse control on the monsters who had none. This is why I've spoken about impulse control, too, as often abusers are those with dark triad traits that make them very impulsive. I've also had experiences, as I mentioned, with humanity acting as a herd in impulsive ways. I was caught in a human stampede which left me with a cracked skull, hospitalised for some time.

I know trauma when I see it and the "madness" of Jormag is that they're traumatised af. The thing is? I hope I'm right. This story has hit me hard emotionally. I don't want it to be another example in the media of blaming the victim for experiencing trauma. There are too many of those already and people don't need to be taught to do that more.

Just my opinion, anyway. I feel for Jormag. I hope they'll be okay because this story hurts. It's just too on point, too accurate.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actionsExcept both the Commander and Aurene don't agree with Braham's actions. Aurene just says we need to accept the fact he made his choice.despite the fact that we just spent the entire season stopping Bangar from trying to do the exact same thing that Braham chose to do.Incorrect. We stopped Bangar, who was being manipulated by Jormag from the beginning(hence the corrupted items in his office, and the Boneskinner tracks outside his office) from awakening Jormag, because that is what Jormag wanted, and what Jormag was actively manipulating Bangar to accomplish. Braham's situation is the literal polar opposite of Bangar's. Bangar was a tool of Jormag from the get go, working to fulfill Jormag's desire, while Braham is making Primordus his tool, by taking advantage of Primordus's lack of intelligence.Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.Fight fire with fire. The Spirits of the Wild have constantly been shown to be creatures of nearly limitless magical power, hence why the Elder Dragons have gone after them. That also makes them some of the beings beings, when their forces are combined, to combat an Elder Dragon. Just like Elder Dragons are being of pure magic, so are the gods, and the best thing to fight a Dragon with would be a god, since the god is the only thing that could stand toe to toe with it.Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've literally been killing his champions left and right.All of the champions we killed were non intelligent, and unable to be reasoned with. We needed a champion that had intelligence, and reason, to usefully direct Primrodus's power.Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works.Also incorrect. We said what Bangar was trying to do, which was wave the bow in front of Jormag's face, and hope Jormag bows to him because of it, wouldn't work.Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is pure genocide and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side.Braham is doing the literal exact opposite of succumbing. The whole point of using the Spirirts of the Wild as protection is so that he doesn't succumb, so he can retain intelligence, and usefully direct Primordus's minions.Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent five years establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style.They long since moved past this with the "Prismatic" Elder Dragon, aka Aurene. They even hammer this into us at the end of S4 with Kralkatorrik going on about how the energies don't conflict inside her. And this was even hinted at earlier in "All or Nothing". During the trials in Glint's lair Glint's voice talks about how the consumption of so much magic has effects on the Elder Dragons, but sharing said magic with mortals will help Aurene avoid those problems. Her sharing of magic with not only the commander(Dragon Slayer mastery) but the Crystal Bloom, and the allied factions, is key here.This isn't just activley contradicting older lore, it's contradicting lore established from the current season and even within the fractured episode of Champions itself.Except it isn't Its only contradicting your personal perception of the lore, which many people have pointed out is flawed, and you have routinely refused to accept much like...I was flabbergasted over the sylvari reveal and how Anet had put a lot of effort to establish firmly that sylvari are very different from dragon minions to the point where there weren't even no similarities, but blatant contradictions to the theory, yet still went with the revelation,This, where you still refuse to accept the reveal, despite the fact that all evidence pointed to it, and most of your ideas on why it doesn't make sense weren't based in the actual lore.Hell, I can almost mirror it with subpar subversions of expectations (that don't work because they were brutally obvious about these subversions)There was no subversion of expectations. They have heavily hinted at this being the path for awhile now.reversal of character development (in this case, Braham's Season 4 development getting reverted back into his Season 3 whiny self)Except Braham didn't revert, as he wasn't whiny at all in this release. He was the exact opposite of it, and it builds on what we have seen him do since S3.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:What happened with Braham seemed like Arenanet didn't have a single scrap of an idea on how to continue this abomination of a story and just took the weirdest
and worst
idea straight from the forums.

They no doubt came up with the idea before it popped up on the forums, given all the DRMs were in the gw.dat with the first Champions chapter, but this story direction is just... makes zero kitten sense in every way. Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actions, despite the fact that we just spent
the entire season
stopping Bangar from trying to do
the exact same thing
that Braham chose to do.

Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.

Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've
literally been killing his champions left and right
. Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that
we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works.
Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is
pure genocide
and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side. Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent
five years
establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was
because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style
.

What.The.kitten.

This isn't just activley contradicting older lore, it's contradicting lore established from the current season and
even within the fractured episode of Champions itself.

I was flabbergasted over the sylvari reveal and how Anet had put a lot of effort to establish firmly that sylvari are
very different
from dragon minions to the point where there weren't even no similarities, but blatant contradictions to the theory, yet still went with the revelation, but this... this is by far worst. Because if there isn't some major plot twist, we're not just contradicting established lore, we're making the half of the entire game's plot until now pointless and redundant drama.

This is story writing on par to Game of Thrones Season 8. Hell, I can almost mirror it with subpar subversions of expectations (that don't work because they were brutally obvious about these subversions), reversal of character development (in this case, Braham's Season 4 development getting reverted back into his Season 3 whiny self), and blatant contradiction of its own dialogue.

I've been hesitant about bothering to continue into the story with buying EoD, and was actually thinking the story would get better once ANet finally stops having enough source material to just pull the nostalgia factor, and hoping that despite the constant turnover of lead writers that there'd be a semblance of consistency growing once writers get to do their own original thing in the world.

But seriously now. I don't think I'll be buying End of Dragons if the writers can't even maintain consistency within their own releases.

I can't agree with your sentiments more. I don't understand who thought these were great story beats, or that casually throwing aside years of plot would be okay. I'm not even angry or upset, really. I'm just tired. There is clearly a reason writers keep leaving ANet, and it's showing... I don't see how chapter 4 could fix any of the story/lore issues that have only grown with each additional chapter. I have no more faith in the narrative team at this point, and that kills me to type out. I just want Icebrood Saga to be over now. And frankly, my excitement for End of Dragons is waning.

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Jormag isn't bipolar. It isn't madness to want to be free from abuse. () Jormag's "madness" is trauma.

Maybe it is. But Jormag is also now trying to abuse others. That Jormag maybe was abused and is traumatized can be an explanation for this behaviour, but not an excuse.

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Aurene being the Prismatic Dragon will be the solution to the balance issue, that's pretty certain to us as players now.But my issue here is that the characters in universe don't know that. There have been a few hints, but they never discuss it, nobody is testing the hypothesis small-scale. Why not? They have run similar experiments in LS3, why not now?

How can they act like this, putting everything in danger, without testing anything beforehand, just vaguely hoping they interpreted Glint correctly this time?!

I kinda wish we had left the civil war to the charr and the spirits to Braham and stayed out of the season, searching for replacements instead... Maybe finally went to the Pale Tree and asked her about replacing Mordremoth, even.

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@PseudoNewb.5468 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?

Pretty sure the "animal" is Primordus. Jormag previously stated how they are in a prison because of Primordu's.

Anyone notice that Aurene said Jormag's frozen spell is using corrupted magic? Does this mean that the frozen ice is indeed as mixture of ice and crystalline magic? I am not sure what Aurene means by saying "corrupted" magic. It doesn't seem to be the same meaning of corrupted as say when used in "dragon corruption". Not sure what that means. Seems like the writers may be getting ahead of themselves with dialog based on things that where never explained well.

Yes, I noticed this comment too and my mind went to Jormag’s recent absorption of Kralkatorrik’s magic.

They even stated in the instance with Braham of the Infection of Magic that Primordus absorbed from dead gods and fellow dragons.

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My issue with the story right now and for some time has been the lack of definition regarding our characters' main goal, and what we have to do in order to achieve it. There don't seem to be a clear distinction between "Preserving Tyria" and "Coping with the Elder Dragons threat" anymore. Do we have to destroy, or negate the threat? One time it seems that balance is the cornerstone of the story, the next time we're back to killing dragons. Aurene's behavior in this chapter further strengthen my interrogations.

I don't necessarily hate the story. I just feel confused.

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I knew Braham was going to become primordius champion, it was way too obvious. Now I get this feeling that the last chapter will just be where we “mobilize” our allies into a split/double fight between Jormag and Primordius’ minions and then the elder dragons appear, but we actually don’t fight them for once and their fight is just a cinematic .

Then once the two kill eachother, the deep sea dragon swoops in and takes their power all for herself, with their champion standing atop their head and then they go off into the distance. Enter EoD.

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@"PseudoNewb.5468" said:

Pretty sure the "animal" is Primordus. Jormag previously stated how they are in a prison because of Primordu's.

Pretty much it seems like Jormag and Primordus represents different aspects of the mind. Jormag is analytical while Primordus is instinctual. By caaling Priomrdus an animal, they are saying Primordus is a creature that nearly completely operates on instinct. (Of course on earth, we are surprised how many animals actually do have reasoning skills beyond what our consensus has historically been). So the term animal is just used to describe something with "animal" level intelligence, Which colloquially means something that relies on more instinct than logic.

I had the same line of thought during the opening dialogue. From my interpretation it seems as if Jormag not only see's Primordus as an animal of instinct but also see's itself above it's twin on an intellectual level, seemingly being quite resentful for being connected/paired together in the first place. I almost get the sense that while it ultimately wants to rid itself of Primordus, it deep down just wants to break the chains they both share, even if that means Primordus still lives at the end of it.

Then again Jormag's mind doesn't seem entirely stable at this point so who knows what it actually wants at the end of all this. I don't think it even knows anymore?

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At this point I don’t think we’re going to see either dragon die, and this is all more a set up for EoDs primary conflict.

Then again, I didn’t think Braham would truly become Primordus’ champion, so I’m done trying to predict whatever the heck is happening in ANet’s writing room.

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I don't have the will to look at responses because this is hurting me quite a bit right now, I'm not in a good emotional place to do so.

I will, however, leave this here.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/27/victim-blaming-science-behind-psychology-research

It's an important read to understand my perspective.

Honestly, I am not quite certain if this is a result of victim blaming. Everyone done something bad and done something good but treatment of them varies based on how attached the individual is towards that person. People can be more forgiving or less forgiving based on their own views even if a person done something far worse or far less than a lesser character we hardly know.

At this point it is uncertain where Anet wants to take this story now until we get a clear path in End of Dragons storyline.

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@"Bast.7253" said:That entire conversation was about the balance with Jormag talking about the balance being bad, mentioning Aurene as tis "grandniece" multiple times, so I'm assuming it's just further reinforcing that although Jormag and Primordus are twins, all of the elder dragons are brothers and sisters?I don't think it's meant to be literally, because earlier in Champions Jormag called Aurene "little sister". I think Jormag switching to grandniece is - if not simple inconsistency - meant to portray that Jormag is fed up with trying to manipulate Aurene into action and is becoming colder (no pun intended).

Jormag talks about the balance chaining it to this "animal." Which, I assumed meant maybe Bangar? But the balance didn't do that, JORMAG chose Bangar. So what did it mean by being "chained to this animal?" Unless it's referring to Jormag's body.. the dragon.. and Jormag is actually just.. this essence of the All in a dragon vessel?Primordus is the "animal".

@draxynnic.3719 said:The Braham-Primordus thing is... interesting. It seems that the distinction that's being set up with Primordus compared to the other Elder Dragons, even Kralkatorrik, is that Primordus has always been the animalistic force of nature that acts without any overarching strategy that the Elder Dragons in general were portrayed as in prerelease marketing. Braham is, essentially, trying to pull a Snaff, controlling the dragon from within - but where Kralkatorrik did have a conscious mind (possibly two at war with each other, in fact), Primordus lacks sapience at all and might be more malleable as a result.

The whole notion that Primordus lacks sapience makes no sense. His destroyers are clearly sapient as they've shown strategy in EotN and even the DRMs. Since the destroyers come from rock, the sapience has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere would then be Primordus or some living being corrupted by Primordus.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Worst yet, they made Braham an actual Mary Sue by there being literally no dissent or disagreement with his actionsExcept both the Commander and Aurene don't agree with Braham's actions. Aurene just says we need to accept the fact he made his choice.The Commander may not have agreed with the plan, but Aurene clearly did because she told him Primordus' location. And at the end of the last DRM, the Commander, Rytlock, and Efram all comment on Braham's
bravery
and
noble sacrifice.

Which shows that even if they didn't agree with the plan, they not only accept it, but straight up praise his actions.

despite the fact that we just spent the entire season stopping Bangar from trying to do the exact same thing that Braham chose to do.Incorrect. We stopped Bangar, who was being manipulated by Jormag from the beginning(hence the corrupted items in his office, and the Boneskinner tracks outside his office) from awakening Jormag, because that is what Jormag wanted, and what Jormag was actively manipulating Bangar to accomplish. Braham's situation is the literal polar opposite of Bangar's. Bangar was a tool of Jormag from the get go, working to fulfill Jormag's desire, while Braham is making Primordus his tool, by taking advantage of Primordus's lack of intelligence.

The Commander didn't know Bangar was being manipulated (and neither did players, even if many suspected such due to the clues you mention), and were stopping Bangar because "champions don't control the Elder Dragon" and Bangar would just "feed the charr to Jormag".

Yes, let's use beings made of pure magic to control a being that eat magic and have endless hunger for said magic by inserting said beings made of pure magic into the Elder Dragon. That's smart.Fight fire with fire. The Spirits of the Wild have constantly been shown to be creatures of nearly limitless magical power, hence why the Elder Dragons have gone after them. That also makes them some of the beings beings, when their forces are combined, to combat an Elder Dragon. Just like Elder Dragons are being of pure magic, so are the gods, and the best thing to fight a Dragon with would be a god, since the god is the only thing that could stand toe to toe with it.

The only thing here you said that's correct is that the Spirits of the Wild are creatures of nearly limitless magic.

Yes, Primordus needs a champion, despite the fact that we've literally been killing his champions left and right.All of the champions we killed were non intelligent, and unable to be reasoned with. We needed a champion that had intelligence, and reason, to usefully direct Primrodus's power.

They very much had some intelligence, as they were not only directing destroyers where to attack, but even doing feint assaults as seen in Gendarran Fields DRM. No dragon minion can be reasoned with - the entire point of dragon minions is that they lack free will. Champions included.

The only exception are those "bonded" like the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. Which Primordus has no reason to do, and as evident by the story journal, didn't do. Braham was corrupted, not bonded, and "somehow" the Spirits are preventing his total corruption.

Quality writing. "Somehow, Palpatine returned."

Yes, Primordus will be led by his champion, despite the fact that we spent an entire year saying that's not how it works.Also incorrect. We said what Bangar was trying to do, which was wave the bow in front of Jormag's face, and hope Jormag bows to him because of it, wouldn't work.

Allow me to quote:

Crecia Stoneglow: The Elder Dragon. One of our scouts spotted it doing...something to the old Brand scars just south of here.Crecia Stoneglow: What are its orders?Character name: Aurene doesn't take orders from us. As for the Brand scars—we believe she's purifying them, for lack of a better word.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Didn't think you'd point your heaviest artillery at us, though. Not very politic, is it.Character name: Aurene's not a weapon. She's taken a personal interest in repairing Kralkatorrik's damage.Bangar Ruinbringer: Your apology could use some work.Rytlock Brimstone: Commander doesn't have anything to apologize for. Aurene does what she wants.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coming_Home#In_Grothmar_Valley

Bangar Ruinbringer: Drakkar's death at my hands sends them all a message: I am Jormag's champion now. I alone can control the dragon.Character name: Jormag can't be controlled! That's not how this works.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep#Whispering_Depths

"That's not how this works."

Guess it is now.

Yes, let's succumb to the powers of an Elder Dragon who's only interaction with mortals is pure genocide and hope it doens't strip away all of Braham's free will because he has the power of Spirits of the Wild by his side.Braham is doing the literal exact opposite of succumbing. The whole point of using the Spirirts of the Wild as protection is so that he doesn't succumb, so he can retain intelligence, and usefully direct Primordus's minions.

He's allowing himself to be corrupted. Hence, "succumb to".He's not sure the Spirits could protect him - it's a gamble. Hence, "hope it doesn't".

Braham managed to maintain a bit of control because he's just so awesome and capable of doing things no one else could, even beings with literal anti-corruption magic couldn't do, which borderline makes him a Mary Sue (and the praise he gets for the stupid gamble half-working lands him neatly into full Mary Suedom).

Yes, let's continue to ignore the fact we just spent five years establishing the notion that we need at least four Elder Dragons alive at one point (and even antagonized Balthazar over this fact) and go ahead and kill two at the same time - ignoring the fact that the entire reason for Season 3's finale was because we didn't want that to happen in a more peaceful manner than two literal kaijus duking it out Godzilla style.They long since moved past this with the "Prismatic" Elder Dragon, aka Aurene. They even hammer this into us at the end of S4 with Kralkatorrik going on about how the energies don't conflict inside her. And this was even hinted at earlier in "All or Nothing". During the trials in Glint's lair Glint's voice talks about how the consumption of so much magic has effects on the Elder Dragons, but sharing said magic with mortals will help Aurene avoid those problems. Her sharing of magic with not only the commander(Dragon Slayer mastery) but the Crystal Bloom, and the allied factions, is key here.

And none of that actually covers the balance of The All and how Kralkatorrik getting stronger worsened the balance, even if less than simply killing Elder Dragons. The fact we got told that we need multiple replacements from Flashpoint to All or Nothing over, and over, and over again, is now being ignored.

Then there's as @Fenella.2634 said, that no one's bothering to test to make sure it'd work. Kind of like not bothering to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth before killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4... But at least then we had a reason - Kralkatorrik was literally eating the Mists and there was no time to ponder and hypothesize.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The Commander may not have agreed with the plan, but Aurene clearly did because she told him Primordus' location. And at the end of the last DRM, the Commander, Rytlock, and Efram all comment on Braham's bravery and noble sacrifice.Which shows that even if they didn't agree with the plan, they not only accept it, but straight up praise his actions.A. Primordus is in the same volcano he was last time we saw him. Even if Aurene didn't tell him, he would have found out in about 5 minutes anyways. So why would she not tell him something he could easily find out regardless?B. Being able to recognize bravely, and sacrifice, doesn't mean you don't disagree with their overall plan.Now you are just casually trying to side step your original argument, which was that their no dissent or disagreement, to try to move goalposts to "well they said nice things about him!" And that is a fallacious argument.

The Commander didn't know Bangar was being manipulated (and neither did players, even if many suspected such due to the clues you mention), and were stopping Bangar because "champions don't control the Elder Dragon" and Bangar would just "feed the charr to Jormag".Except players did know Bangar was being manipulated, because even Anet admitted that Jormag was talking to Bangar in the Icebrood Saga trailer. We knew he was being talked to from the beginning, and many players were talking about back then. As I recall, you stomped your feet around for months saying it isn't true, and then had to back off when Bangar himself admitted he was likely manipulated from the beginning. And our character had some inkling of it since the prologue, as Crecia states that Ice Constructs don't make themselves, Shaman's do, and that something larger is going on here. Who has ice shamans? Svanir. Who do the Svanir work for? Jormag.

The only thing here you said that's correct is that the Spirits of the Wild are creatures of nearly limitless magic.I like how you make no effort to actually counter of the points made, and just go "NUH UH!"

They very much had some intelligence, as they were not only directing destroyers where to attack, but even doing feint assaults as seen in Gendarran Fields DRM. No dragon minion can be reasoned with - the entire point of dragon minions is that they lack free will. Champions included.The only exception are those "bonded" like the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. Which Primordus has no reason to do, and as evident by the story journal, didn't do. Braham was corrupted, not bonded, and "somehow" the Spirits are preventing his total corruption.Quality writing. "Somehow, Palpatine returned."Except they didn't have intelligence, and Taimi even points this out during the Metrica Province DRM when the champion goes in the exact opposite direction from the gateway to Rata Sum. Even in the Gendarran Fields DRM, Jhavi mentions how the destroyers actions in trying to attack the Ascalon Settlement doesn't make sense, and comments maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. Not to mention, even animals like wolves know basic unit tactics, and can use feints and lures while others surround their opponent. Basic battle tactics are something dumb animals can learn. That isn't indicative of true intelligence.

I also like how you immediately contradict yourself here saying champions don't have free will.... except this sub category of champions that do! Its like yeah, that subcategory does, hence why we needed a champion of that sub category instead of a normal one. Which is what Braham is basically emulating.

Likewise, we already saw corrupted minions maintain, or regain, some semblance of free will. All you have to do is look back earlier in the Icebrood Saga with the other Spirits of the Wild. They are corrupted by Jormag's power, yet still manage to retain their intelligence, and even fight back against his control over them. Creatures of overwhelming power have already been established to be able to maintain some free will, even when corrupted. And those were the lesser spirits, Braham has the greater spirit's power on his side, and likely many of the lesser ones also since he already had to prove themselves, and gain their powers, to open the shrine door in Jormag Rising.

Allow me to quote:And nothing in your first quote deals with anything I said, or about the issue in general. And your second quote just deals with exactly what I already pointed out. Bangar believed he could become the Dragon's champion, and control it, by killing Drakkar, and waving the bow in its face. What Braham doing is something else entirely. You can try to reductio ad absurdum everything you come across, by removing all context, and the specifics behind it, but that isn't a valid argument.

He's allowing himself to be corrupted. Hence, "succumb to".That isn't what the word succumb means. Succumb literally means a failure to resist. Hes doing the exact opposite of failing, by using the greater spirit's power to walk on that razor thin edge.He's not sure the Spirits could protect him - it's a gamble. Hence, "hope it doesn't".Its not a hope, hes already seen the lesser spirits of the wild resist Jormag's influence earlier in the season.Braham managed to maintain a bit of control because he's just so awesome and capable of doing things no one else could, even beings with literal anti-corruption magic couldn't do, which borderline makes him a Mary Sue (and the praise he gets for the stupid gamble half-working lands him neatly into full Mary Suedom).That isn't what the term Mary Sue means. A Mary sue is a character who doesn't make mistakes, is liked by everyone, and is able to overcome anything by themselves. Braham has made mistakes, isn't liked by everyone(even in universe), and is only able to do what he does thanks to the Commander, and the power of the Spirirts of wild... all of which was built up since his character was introduced.

So, literally everything you said here is wrong, by the very definition of the words you are trying to use.

And none of that actually covers the balance of The All and how Kralkatorrik getting stronger worsened the balance, even if less than simply killing Elder Dragons. The fact we got told that we need multiple replacements from Flashpoint to All or Nothing over, and over, and over again, is now being ignored.Except it does Konig, and they already explained it in-game to boot.

Kralk getting stronger worsened the balance because the old Elder Dragons were beings that horded magic for themselves, using it to increase their own power. You needed the six of them to prevent too much magic from being in the world at once, but also to prevent any one of them from getting so much magic that they become too magically powerful themselves, to the point they could do what Kralk was doing like eating the Mists, and threatening to destroy reality. All the previous comments made by the player character, and our allies, on needing 6 were based on the knowledge we had at the time, which was this is how it had to be. Aurene fundamentally destroyed that entire notion by being an elder dragon that DOESN'T horde magic for herself. She shares it with everyone around her, making it to where she doesn't get too much power to disrupt the balance, and no one else gets too much power to go crazy like the former bounties were.

This was the whole point of Glint's dialog about Aurene needing to share magic instead of horde it, and Kralk's comments to his torment that Aurene is the first of her kind. She is fundamentally different from the other Elder Dragons, and how they maintained the cycle.

Then there's as @Fenella.2634 said, that no one's bothering to test to make sure it'd work. Kind of like not bothering to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth before killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4... But at least then we had a reason - Kralkatorrik was literally eating the Mists and there was no time to ponder and hypothesize.We don't need to "test" to make sure it works... we have already seen that it works in-game.

Throughout season 3 and 4 the excess magical buildup was causing unbound, and volatile, magic to appear all over the place, and caused super powerful ley infused creatures to pop up everywhere. Since Aurene's ascension we have only seen volatile magic appear in places she has used her powers(like purifying the Brand), and all the big boss monsters have been either just normal monsters(those in Grothmaw) or powered by harvested energy from the corrupted spirits of the wild, or from Jormag's direct power(Bjora, and Drizzlewood) We see this even in the DRMs. These stronger dragon champions lack the ley powers of ley infused branded bounties from LWS4.

Aurene's ascension has, quite demonstrably, reset things back to pre LWS3 levels.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Bangar Ruinbringer: Drakkar's death at my hands sends them all a message: I am Jormag's champion now. I alone can control the dragon.Character name: Jormag can't be controlled! That's not how this works.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep#Whispering_Depths

"That's not how this works."

The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.The Commander was right in that specific situation--you don't become an Elder Dragon Champion by killing the previous Champion. Nor do you get control over an Elder Dragon because you killed its minion--that's akin to thinking you can control Bangar because you killed Crecia or Rytlock... it's nonsense logic, and the Commander saying "that's not how it works" was just a reflection of him/her being baffled by Bangar's nonsense.

However, just because Bangar is nuts doesn't mean that a Champion can't command a dragon. Nothing in lore makes it impossible. A Dragon makes itself vulnerable by sharing power with a Champion. While in most cases, a Champion isn't in a position to exploit that vulnerability, the vulnerability exists. Glint used the vulnerability to escape Kralk, and the Commander used it to heavily shape Aurene's development and worldview.

Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.

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I mean, there's also the whole... the Gods left because of the Elder Dragons and didn't want to go to war with them because of the cataclysmic effects it could have.

We have the gods fighting Abaddon and the creation of the crystal desert.

Now we have two equally substantial magical beings pitted against each other in the form of Primordus and Jormag, and everyone's just cheering the plan on like that same potential for disaster is for some reason not applicable in this scenario.

The ONLY way I can see any of this making sense is if the vision in Kesho talking about two dragons being eliminated at once, was actually referring not to Mordremoth and Zhaitan, but Primordus and Jormag being truly killed at the same time. Thus continuing the prophecy and Aurene's ascension crucial to having a different outcome after the fact. Even still, that doesn't account for the fact that we knew killing elder dragons was bad way before that vision.

So I don't know.

Let's just look back at the entirety of Path of Fire and this saga....

We went to Elona to prevent Balth from killing Kralk because we can't afford to lose anymore elder dragons. Now we're deadset on eliminating both, apparently. The commander, Aurene, nobody seems to have any real qualms with this plan.

In Icebrood we tried to stop Bangar from becoming a champion of Jormag because 1.) He thought he could control Jormag but we said.. no.. no.. that's not how that works! We freed the spirits from being siphoned by Jormag.

Now, Braham comes in, hand delivers the spirits to Primordus and becomes a wiling champion that's somehow able to direct Primordus' troops/control him to some degree, and everyone is just praising him. DESPITE how much people were against the idea of the commander having an alliance with Aurene and viewing Aurene as just another evil elder dragon.

But yeah, we're fine with two elder dragons going at war with each other (despite losing even one elder dragon being cataclysmic) and we have a history of supremely powerful magic beings waging war with each other having devastating effects on an entire continent. But now we're just peachy keen with inciting a war between the two now.

I'm sure in retrospect this will all make sense, but the scope of this story feels entirely too large to be trying to tell in a few lines of voiceovers over a 10 minute story mission and it just feels jarringly inconsistent.

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@"Weindrasi.3805" said:The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

Most good writers intentionally capitalize on this for the sake of realism in the game world. Bethesda for instance had admitted to knowingly putting in contradictory versions of the same story, and have NPCs say contradictory things about various aspects of the world, to represent people's individual bias, and perception on things like the gods, or magic.

Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.Same reason most people do it I believe. "we live in a society" where its become culturally fashionable to teat everything every company does as if its some giant, sinister, conspiracy, or out of sheer incompetence. This is only facilitated(especially in the gaming scene) by internet hate mongers like most popular gaming youtubers who are constantly putting out videos hyping up how you should video companies because they sneezed wrong, and other ridiculous nonsense. Most people legitimately want to hate things, and so will do everything in their power to justify their need to hate things. "Lore break", "retcon" and other similar buzzwords/phrases are easy methods of doing so.

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The absence of volatile magic since Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik is one of the hints I meant.However, this just means that for now the balance holds. This does in no way prove killing two dragons won't be a problem.We as players can be fairly certain the world will be fine long-term, but the characters don't know about a Cantha expac... It's important to not confuse our knowledge with what characters in universe know.

Wouldn't have hurt if Taimi and Gorrik had spent some time offscreen rebuilding a certain machine, running a few simulations and updating DW, no? Instead of taking drastic measures like waking up dragons just hoping for the best.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aurene won't replace multiple EDs. It's not my preferred way to solve the story, but it seems to be what is going on and it doesn't come out of nowhere.My issue is the lack of discussion within the main cast. Replacing EDs has been our main goal basically since LS3, now apparently the facts are changing and nobody cares?

Edit 2: Even Glint originally wanted Aurene to just replace Mordremoth, Vlast to replace Zhaitan and herself as a replacement for Kralkatorrik.Even she didn't foresee that Aurene could or should replace more than one dragon. Maybe she can replace three and that's awesome, but assuming she can do five or six just as well is pretty reckless. Without out of game knowledge, anyway.

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@"Fenella.2634" said:The absence of volatile magic since Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik is one of the hints I meant.However, this just means that for now the balance holds. This does in no way prove killing two dragons won't be a problem.We as players can be fairly certain the world will be fine long-term, but the characters don't know about a Cantha expac... It's important to not confuse our knowledge with what characters in universe know.

Wouldn't have hurt if Taimi and Gorrik had spent some time offscreen rebuilding a certain machine, running a few simulations and updating DW, no? Instead of taking drastic measures like waking up dragons just hoping for the best.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aurene won't replace multiple EDs. It's not my preferred way to solve the story, but it seems to be what is going on and it doesn't come out of nowhere.My issue is the lack of discussion within the main cast. Replacing EDs has been our main goal basically since LS3, now apparently the facts are changing and nobody cares?

Edit 2: Even Glint originally wanted Aurene to just replace Mordremoth, Vlast to replace Zhaitan and herself as a replacement for Kralkatorrik.Even she didn't foresee that Aurene could or should replace more than one dragon. Maybe she can replace three and that's awesome, but assuming she can do five or six just as well is pretty reckless. Without out of game knowledge, anyway.

Well we're at a point now where Braham MAY be the solution to Primordus, but we still have Jormag to contend with and it seems like Jormag became considerably more transparent and hostile in this latest release, likely leaving us little choice for resolution outside of killing it.

There's the possibility that Braham and Primordus somehow manage to keep Jormag in-line and retreat, but given the hints about Tyria being altered after the events of the Saga it seems that one or more of these dragons is likely to die.

And if Jormag dies, would that power boost to Primordus not jeopardize Braham or the spirit's ability to have control over Primordus? Especially now that he's fully awake and unable to filter out magic like he did with Zhaitan and Mordremoth?

If they both die, the only solution at this point would be Aurene.

Aurene's question of, "Why do they all go mad?" may be hinting at her considering the possibility that she may need to actually get involved moving forward. Perhaps she's held back because she's trying to run those simulations and understand it herself. Perhaps she's afraid of losing control.

So they may touch on that as the story progresses. At this rate, given the timeframe that they have to deliver the story and the current method they have to deliver it being smaller in scope, I can fully expect Aurene to be absorbing both dragon's energy with her prompting us to quickly find more replacements in Cantha. There just isn't really any other option right now.

Given the masteries we have with the final being "Dragon Slayer," I think that's just more confirmation that one or more are going to die. I'm honestly hoping both, if for no other reason than to have Braham exit the story entirely.

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