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Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]


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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Weindrasi.3805" said:The Commander isn't some sort of 4th-wall-breaking Speaker of Truth. Just because the Commander said "that's not how it works" does not mean So Shall It Be--it's just the Commander's perception.This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

Most good writers intentionally capitalize on this for the sake of realism in the game world. Bethesda for instance had admitted to knowingly putting in contradictory versions of the same story, and have NPCs say contradictory things about various aspects of the world, to represent people's individual bias, and perception on things like the gods, or magic.

Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.Same reason most people do it I believe. "we live in a society" where its become culturally fashionable to teat everything every company does as if its some giant, sinister, conspiracy, or out of sheer incompetence. This is only facilitated(especially in the gaming scene) by internet hate mongers like most popular gaming youtubers who are constantly putting out videos hyping up how you should video companies because they sneezed wrong, and other ridiculous nonsense. Most people legitimately want to hate things, and so will do everything in their power to justify their need to hate things. "Lore break", "retcon" and other similar buzzwords/phrases are easy methods of doing so...........
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There is a distinct difference between "lacking higher intelligence" and "lacking any intelligence", which: That points to the latter, not the former. I'm not doing anything "just to perpetuate an arg

Yea im definitely on the same side as those who were just "what the kitten" about this champion thing.

I've talked to a few people who called the Braham Champion of Primordus thing but let it be known, my disagreements were not that I adamantly didn't think it would happen exactly but more that I really hoped it wouldn't go down that way lol.

There are only two moments in this game's story where I have genuinely gone "oh god no.. please no.. no no Noooooooooo!!" and that's not because I was invested in what's going on it's because those particular moments in the story were just so monumentally awful that it caused me physical pain to witness them xD

The first was Aurine confirming that she's pretty much immortal cause "Joko Magic" and yes im still annoyed by this one.And the second is Braham walking up to a Giant Elder Dragon that was submerged in an active Volcano btw and just making himself it's champion.. like What the absolute Kitten!!He did exactly what Bangar did only with magic animal ghosts and now he's basically Super Braham.

These two moments have to be the worst writing in the whole game so far.. regardless of how built up they actually are.But oh well, here we are I guess and what's done is done..

Best I can hope for now is that Taimi doesn't go and form a Cartman/Cthulhu relationship with the kitten water dragon xD

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Braham calling himself the „alpha“ in the Fireheart Rise DRM bothers me more than I‘d like to admit. „Alpha“ behaviour in wolves is only something that happens in captivity, not in the wild. From the way Braham acts, he isn‘t the captive here.

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@Raknar.4735 said:Braham calling himself the „alpha“ in the Fireheart Rise DRM bothers me more than I‘d like to admit. „Alpha“ behaviour in wolves is only something that happens in captivity, not in the wild. From the way Braham acts, he isn‘t the captive here.

While this is true, there is an easy explanation for that: Tyria is not the real world. While alpha behaviour is a phenomenon related to captivity for real life wolves, the same doesn't necessarily have to apply to Tyrian wolves. :)

And in the context of the destroyers, it can make sense especially. He is dominating the destroyers with pure physical and willpower. The term alpha seems appropriate here.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Braham calling himself the „alpha“ in the Fireheart Rise DRM bothers me more than I‘d like to admit. „Alpha“ behaviour in wolves is only something that happens in captivity, not in the wild. From the way Braham acts, he isn‘t the captive here.

While this is true, there is an easy explanation for that: Tyria is not the real world. While alpha behaviour is a phenomenon related to captivity for real life wolves, the same doesn't necessarily have to apply to Tyrian wolves. :)

And in the context of the destroyers, it can make sense especially. He is dominating the destroyers with pure physical and willpower. The term alpha seems appropriate here.

Yeah, the different world = different rules explanation is the one I go by, but sometimes it does bother me nonetheless, as I don't think this is done on purpose, but due to a lack of knowledge :P.

The term does make sense here in a certain way, if we boil it down to use the human "showing dominance" meaning, but doesn't in other ways.Normally that behaviour is restricted to beings of the same-species. If we say that Braham fully converted into a destroyer now, that'd be fine. But that would also mean that he's actually the Beta aiding the Alpha (in this case Primordus).

However, we also haven't really seen a hierarchy based on force-based-dominance until now in destroyers. Destroyers have always acted more like insects with different colonies / squads and "queens". (Intelligence based dominance is featured in Zhaitan-minions, and some Mordrem-Alphas, also wolves, exist.)

I do think the writers intended this to be a clever way to make him the "Alpha Wolf" of the destroyer "pack" here (after all the buildup of him "becoming the Wolf"), but I don't think it really works here in the context of destroyers. But it is Braham who says it, so maybe he just doesn't know better.

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Regardless of the slightly forced way of getting there, we now head into the finale and possibly beyond with three Dragon Champions in a three-way conflict

  • The Commander - representing the either neutral or good Aurene depending on perspective
  • Braham - representing the wild, primal and bestial nature of Primordus whose only goal seems worldwide destruction
  • Ryland - representing the nuanced, but evil and manipulative Jormag who wants to preserve the World, not caring if the cost is torturing those it believes it is saving

Back in LS1, Scarlet was meant to be the anti-Commander. An actual Nemesis we could stand against and opposed us in strength and intelligence and an army to back it up. A great idea, not really well implemented in the end. This feels like their chance to rectify that. If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthrough

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@Randulf.7614 said:If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthroughI doubt both will be standing, that just doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective to have the entire saga build up to us killing at least one of them, and then not do it. Would be like if HoT ended without Mordy's death, or PoF ended without Balthazar's death, or LWS4 ended without Kralk's death.

If ether survives I think it will be Primordus, due to how little time we got with him overall. May fly off to Cantha to fight Bubbles, to become the last of the old Elder dragons standing or something. Would explain the two dragons on the EoD logo, unless one is Aurene, and the other is Bubbles.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:If the two Dragons remain standing after the end, then we have some interesting dynamics to explore and playthroughI doubt both will be standing, that just doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective to have the entire saga build up to us killing at least one of them, and then not do it. Would be like if HoT ended without Mordy's death, or PoF ended without Balthazar's death, or LWS4 ended without Kralk's death.

If ether survives I think it will be Primordus, due to how little time we got with him overall. May fly off to Cantha to fight Bubbles, to become the last of the old Elder dragons standing or something. Would explain the two dragons on the EoD logo, unless one is Aurene, and the other is Bubbles.

True. Or, they may feel Jormag has more character and more they can play with in terms of story because of it, whereas Primordus is a lot more one dimensional,

However, on reflection if the prophecy fortells of Jormag's fall because of Braham, then it would seem to more indicate Jormag isn't surviving past IBS

Maybe Primordus will gain more intelligence as a result of destroying Jormag somehow

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@"Randulf.7614" said:True. Or, they may feel Jormag has more character and more they can play with in terms of story because of it, whereas Primordus is a lot more one dimensional,

However, on reflection if the prophecy fortells of Jormag's fall because of Braham, then it would seem to more indicate Jormag isn't surviving past IBS

Maybe Primordus will gain more intelligence as a result of destroying Jormag somehowI kinda feel like the whole "Jormag has intelligence/character" bit has already been played out. We have seen it go the full spectrum of pretending to be nice, to being outright manipulate, to being desperately vicious. Also, this season is called "The Icebrood Saga", and the initial trailer showed everyone having a stare down with Jormag at the end, so i think Jormag is probably dead by the end.

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@"Weindrasi.3805" said:However, just because Bangar is nuts doesn't mean that a Champion can't command a dragon. Nothing in lore makes it impossible. A Dragon makes itself vulnerable by sharing power with a Champion. While in most cases, a Champion isn't in a position to exploit that vulnerability, the vulnerability exists. Glint used the vulnerability to escape Kralk, and the Commander used it to heavily shape Aurene's development and worldview.

That's incorrect.

Glint escaped Kralkatorrik's control because the Forgotten used a purifying ritual on her to give her free will.

Dragon champions, much like all dragon minions, lack free will. They can't disobey their Elder Dragon.

The sole exception to this rule is the Commander, Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar. The former two because Aurene's a good guy and wouldn't enslave mortals. The latter because Jormag wanted to manipulate Aurene into killing Primordus for them, and bonded rather than corrupted to show they're "not evil". And even then, those four have no ability to control their Elder Dragon - the Commander cannot order Aurene around, and neither can Ryland order Jormag around. As to "heavily shape Aurene's development" - that was because Aurene was an infant, and this is even highlighted by Vlast and the Kesho exalted/Forgotten and how his lack of a champion while young resulted in a disconnection with mortals.

Unlike Aurene and Vlast, Jormag and Primordus are not infants.

Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.

@"Weindrasi.3805" said:Also, I don't know why you are screaming 'LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK' this quickly--Arenanet has not forgotten the lore about not killing more elder dragons, and they aren't going to throw it out the window. Take a deep breath and wait for the rest of the story to play out.Then why hasn't a single character brought up the fact that they can't kill more Elder Dragons? Why are multiple members of Dragon's Watch actively gunning to kill an Elder Dragon?

There is zero evidence to suggest they're keeping to that direction, and my "screaming LORE BREAK, LORE BREAK" wasn't just on that, it was on everything Braham does, which I further explained above.

If you've been around on the lore forums long enough, you should know I don't instantly cry out about inconsistencies and prefer to wait things out. But this release does conflict. From Braham's character development to how dragon corruption has shown to work for the past 9+ years, to sudden plot devices that are borderline dues ex machinas.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:This is a problem a lot of people have, and I've seen this issue crop up in pretty much every game series I've ever played. People have a bad habit of taking everything every NPC says as some word of god, 100% literal, undeniable, truth, when no writer writes NPCs that way. Everything is written from the perspective of that character, at tat time, with the knowledge they have at that moment. Just because something comes up later to prove them wrong doesn't make it a retcon, or them forgetting their own lore, it just means that person was wrong.

By now, you should we well aware that I am not one of those people. Given I've used the very argument of unreliable narrator against you perceiving certain NPC lines to be fully true.

The thing is, while I only quoted one character above, it's a notion that's firmly developed since Edge of Destiny's release back in 2010 and until now is one of the few points of lore that has never changed or even be questioned in the lore.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.Yeah man, those Corrupted Spirits of the Wild we saw back in Shadow in the Ice, which came out Jan 2020, over a year ago, lacked any sort of free will and intelligence... ohh wait, they clearly showed intelligence, and also actively helped Braham fight against Drakkar, and then did so again in Jormag Rising when they helped Braham open the gate to Jormag, and prevented the major spirits from being corrupted in the process.

If three of the Lesser Spirits managed to retain some ability to think and act for themselves, despite being corrupted, then the greater spirits should be able to protect one guy, if only even barely, from being fully mind controlled.

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@Randulf.7614 said:I think he meant Primordus's intelligence/free will is now stemming from the Spirits forcing it upon it by making Braham a Dragon Champion rather than Spirits themselves lacking intelligence/free will. At least that's hwo I read the quoted sentencePrimordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:I think he meant Primordus's intelligence/free will is now stemming from the Spirits forcing it upon it by making Braham a Dragon Champion rather than Spirits themselves lacking intelligence/free will. At least that's hwo I read the quoted sentencePrimordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

See my above edit. My post was gibberish caused by not reading what I or others wrote properly

Apologies - as you were. Think my head is pounding too much to add anything useful to the discussion

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This chapter solidifies that Arenanet's writing crew either all disappeared or they just don't care anymore.I'm glad they introduced Tengu and brought Canach back into the fold, but the plot progression after that makes no sense.

So many conflicting ideas meshing together into an incoherent mess with no care for continuity, and characters change their stance on things too fast, too often.The only thing consistent is Aurene sitting around and not doing anything.

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I think there is a bit of a degree to which assumptions based on other Elder Dragons might not apply to Primordus.

We've had indications that there was something different about Primordus for a while. Primordus generally doesn't corrupt creatures, but creates their own minions. Jormag was describing Primordus as being animalistic and mindless, which has been different to the other Elder Dragons we've faced, which were intelligent even if they were uncommunicative and/or insane, and this animalistic nature has been confirmed with the recent update. Given those existing distinctions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Primordus' form of corrupting living beings, when they do do it, is not as sophisticated as that of other dragons.

Another consideration is that even when the same rules apply, we've seen that minions can retain some of their priorities from before they were corrupted, as long as those priorities do not conflict with the dragon's own priorities. So if Primordus actually does want to confront Jormag, than Braham's ploy actually works - the two are in agreement over the goal, and Braham may well be able to exert some influence over how to pursue that goal (for instance: "these creatures are also fighting Jormag's creatures, maybe avoid killing them for now so they can help fight Jormag"). Thus, as long as Primordus' main priority is to kill Jormag, Braham might be able to influence Primordus's approach of how to do that.

The problem would be that Primordus probably doesn't want to die in the process, and once Jormag is out of the picture, Primordus might revert back to "burn the world". With that said, however, we do have precedent that the lesser Spirits may, on occasion, be able to act against Jormag's interests (although we don't know how much of that Jormag might have allowed as part of a Xanatos gambit). So it's possible that the greater spirits and Braham will be able to maintain self-control even if Primordus breaks from the script.

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I'm just tinfoil hatting here but here's my theory :

Jormag has made it clear that Primordous is their twin.Jormag has also made it known that Primordous is animalistic.Braham and the Spirits have come to the conclusion that Primordous has no real mind of its own.Braham is able to exert limited control as Primordous' champion, but risks being consumed by the raw fury and rage of Primodous.

This all points to one thing :Primordous and Jormag are not twins, they are two halves of a whole.Based on this theory, they do not "destroy" each other literally when they clash.They will "destroy" both Jormag and Primordous to become whole.

If this is true, then I can already guess the ending of Champions :

  • Primodous and Jormag are forced to clash and merge
  • A single being is born from the merge
  • They are evil because Elder Dragon stuff anyway
  • Aurene finally has to get off her butt to confront it, as the only other Elder Dragon who can match them (god knows where Bubbles is)
  • Big fight.
  • Ryland probably dies, Braham probably dies.

Alternatively :

  • We look for Bubbles in EoD for a three way fight.
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@"draxynnic.3719" said:The problem would be that Primordus probably doesn't want to die in the process, and once Jormag is out of the picture, Primordus might revert back to "burn the world". With that said, however, we do have precedent that the lesser Spirits may, on occasion, be able to act against Jormag's interests (although we don't know how much of that Jormag might have allowed as part of a Xanatos gambit). So it's possible that the greater spirits and Braham will be able to maintain self-control even if Primordus breaks from the script.

If there is one thing that the writers at Arenanet are no longer capable of, its creating a half, no, quarter decent Xanatos gambit. I don't think Jormag is capable of such.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:I'm just tinfoil hatting here but here's my theory :

Jormag has made it clear that Primordous is their twin.Jormag has also made it known that Primordous is animalistic.Braham and the Spirits have come to the conclusion that Primordous has no real mind of its own.Braham is able to exert limited control as Primordous' champion, but risks being consumed by the raw fury and rage of Primodous.

This all points to one thing :Primordous and Jormag are not twins, they are two halves of a whole.Based on this theory, they do not "destroy" each other literally when they clash.They will "destroy" both Jormag and Primordous to become whole.

I've wildspecced something similar myself - that Jormag and Primordus might be two halves of a whole. There's always been the "fire and ice" thing, but we're also starting to see a sort of animalistic emotion versus cold (sociopathic, even) logic split. We have seen displays of emotion from Jormag, but that could be tactical display of emotion rather than actually losing control. We could be looking at a situation of having two unbalanced sides that need to merge to form a balanced whole.

Of course, that raises the question of whether a single being can contain the magic currently split between Jormag and Primordus.

It is, quite likely, the only practical way we're likely to resolve this without either Braham or Ryland ending up dead. (Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time we've had to kill the son of an important friendly character because they'd lost the plot.)

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think there is a bit of a degree to which assumptions based on other Elder Dragons might not apply to Primordus.

And one can acknowledge that an observation, even if reliable, does not make a rule. The observed "truth" is not a law that shall not be challenged. Sure, conflicting events/observations means the rules aren't so clear cut and could be complicated. And it isn't always best to make things more complicated. But to say that dragon corruption may have degrees of control and isn't infallibly absolute doesn't make things that much more complicated (In fact in the real world hypothesis, or aspersions that deal with absolutes are some of the most complicated things to prove). And to assert that such a complication to how things should work, is impermissible and creates a contradiction is just stubborn denial. If, in the real world, we stuck to the strict "lore" of Newtonian physics and dismissed radical observations as contradictions, then, well things would be quite boring. It just doesn't look good to say, one's constructed understanding and mechanical model of the world (real or phantasy) is superior and anything contradicting is either an error (in the real world) or going off the rails (in a fictional world). Softening how the connections between elder dragon and minion work simply isn't going to make the lore implode.

Another consideration is that even when the same rules apply, we've seen that minions can retain some of their priorities from before they were corrupted, as long as those priorities do not conflict with the dragon's own priorities. So if Primordus actually does want to confront Jormag, than Braham's ploy actually works - the two are in agreement over the goal, and Braham may well be able to exert some influence over how to pursue that goal (for instance: "these creatures are also fighting Jormag's creatures, maybe avoid killing them for now so they can help fight Jormag"). Thus, as long as Primordus' main priority is to kill Jormag, Braham might be able to influence Primordus's approach of how to do that.

And that is the thing here. Some people are saying, it turns out Braham and the Spirits are doing what Bangar originally planned, but that is a gross simplification of things. It turns out Bangar uses some of the same logic as Jormag, wanting to protect the charr and all. But it is also a fact that Bangar's idea of protecting the charr is for the charr to dominate and destroy the other races. Bangar wants to command Jormag like a piece of artillery as he previously accused the commander of doing with Aurene. Bangar acted as though he would be able control Jormag no questions asked. It simply could never be that easy.Braham and the Spirit's quest is very different. They want to draw Primordu's attention away from drawing power by attacking mortal settlements and direct Primordus back to it's primary instinct of fighting the ice dragon. We have evidence that, yes, Primordus does want to directly attack Jormag as hinted in Drizzlewood coast lore. Secondly Braham knows full well that he can not control Primordus, and the potential consequences of approaching Primordus. He brings the spirits to help, and has their full cooperation. Bangar brought totems of the spirits when he confronted Jormag, seeming to think he could use their power to subjugate Jormag, but as it turns out the totems ended up feeding Jormag instead, because Bangar's ability to actually control any of it was made up in Bangar's own head. Braham's computer is completely opposite of Bangar. He isn't there to control Primordus, just to try to constrain it, redirect it's attention. He does it knowing that it will likely be the last choice he will make. He knows and acts like this is his last moment of independence. Reflecting Owl's words, he states what his fate is, he is the "harness". Through him, he hopes the Spirits of the Wild can coax Primordus to focus on seeking and attacking Jormag.And the argument that Braham's and the Spirit's plan is ridiculous because an Elder dragon's control is absolute is a bit silly. Such a belief falls already falls apart with events before this new story instance. As said, there are plenty of examples of so called corruption being fallible. The Pale Tree helps Sylvari avoid corruption before Mordremoth wakes, and many sylvari avoid corruption even after Mordremoth awakes. Even among those who convert to mordrem, we find at least one who happens to find a place where Mordremoth's influence wanes and he is able to regain some of his original will. Also, the Spirit's of the WIld's plan doesn't require Braham to maintain full independence. He is the "harness" in the scheme, something that the allows the Spirits to pull on Primordus without directly touching it. Remember that it is the spirits that are trying ultimately the ones trying to influence Primordus, not Braham. That was their original plan, but that failed because trying to directly enter Primordus led to Pirmordus sensing them and trying to consume them. What we see, now, is Braham acting as a bridge between the Spirits and Primordus, disguising the fact that the Spirits and the magic they feed are trying to change Primordu's focus, and acting as a buffer to prevent Primordu's will from overcoming the Spirits. Weather or not Braham has any control over his actions is beside the point of the plan. He is focused is on regulating the connection between the Spirits and Primordus. What his physicals manifestation does as a dragon champion is not the highest concern.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Primordus corrupts Braham, and only the connection to the Spirits of the Wild gives him a sliver of free will and intelligence, but this itself is thrown in out of nowhere in this episode - it's a plot device created with zero proper foreshadowing, to perform an action that 9 years of the game's lore tells us is impossible unless the Elder Dragon allows it to be possible.Yeah man, those Corrupted Spirits of the Wild we saw back in Shadow in the Ice, which came out Jan 2020, over a year ago, lacked any sort of free will and intelligence... ohh wait, they clearly showed intelligence, and also actively helped Braham fight against Drakkar, and then did so again in Jormag Rising when they helped Braham open the gate to Jormag, and prevented the major spirits from being corrupted in the process.

If three of the Lesser Spirits managed to retain some ability to think and act for themselves, despite being corrupted, then the greater spirits should be able to protect one guy, if only even barely, from being fully mind controlled.

Episodes 2 and 4 also show that the Lost Spirits are incapable of resisting Jormag for long, and that no matter how much they resist, they will fall in line to Jormag and against their own morals. Any resistance they offer - like helping open a door or killing Drakkar - is temporary. If we apply this same rule to the Great Spirits, who are only called such because they're the primarily revered spirits and unless their strength comes from worship has no bearing on their strength compared to other Spirits of the Wild, then Primordus should corrupt them and result in them being unable to resist Primordus for more than short bursts. Which seems a really bad ploy if their the only thing keeping Braham resisting except for short bursts.

One could theorycraft and speculate that the reason why Braham succumbed to Primordus' behavior in the DRM is because the Great Spirits themselves succumbed for a bit, but the five were all talking about how they'd "get in and get out" (more or less) before Primordus could influence the Great Spirits.

Either way, we're stuck going "okay, so why can they do it, when the others couldn't" with only baseless speculation to answer us. Some theorycrafting to explain questions is good and all, but when you have a foundation of nothing to explain critical questions, that's just proof of bad writing.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Primordus doesn't have intelligence, or free will. Its the same mindless beat it always was. Braham is just forcing himself into the role of the Dragon's champion, and using that to control the destroyers. His ability to retain his free will is due to the spirits of the wild shielding hi from full mental control, which, as I was pointing out, they have already shown the ability to do for themselves earlier in the saga.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Jormag was describing Primordus as being animalistic and mindless, which has been different to the other Elder Dragons we've faced, which were intelligent even if they were uncommunicative and/or insane, and this animalistic nature has been confirmed with the recent update.

A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

Destroyers are merely corrupted rock, so where did this intelligence come from?

It just seems self-conflicting statements in the story.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Given those existing distinctions, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Primordus' form of corrupting living beings, when they do do it, is not as sophisticated as that of other dragons.Then shouldn't the Stone Summit have been capable of influencing Primordus? Or the test subjects at Crucible of Eternity, like Subject Alpha?

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.

Destroyers are merely corrupted rock, so where did this intelligence come from?

It just seems self-conflicting statements in the story.Again, even wild animals(like wolves) have the ability to recognize specific targets, and use tactics to take down said targets. That doesn't mean they are truly intelligent. Primordus's destroyers have only ever shown this kind of animalistic mentality, and not that of intelligent species.

Even in the Gendarran DRM, both Jhavi and Marjory mention how Primordus only seeks to cause destruction. Its attack on the Ascalon settlement really makes no tactical sense when he could have gone after Lion's Arch instead, using a feint attack on the Ascalon Settlement to lure forces away from LA. Instead it does the opposite, and trys to destroy a relatively small settlement, with little overall tactical value.

This lack of intelligence by Primordus's minions was also mentioned by Taimi in the Metrica Province DRM. When Braham mentions the champion has gone to the area, Taimi quips that its actions make no sense, because the Asura gate into Rata Sum is in the exact opposite direction. She even specifically states "destroyers don't have reason"

So not only was the claim not made this release, the destroyer's actions don't show anything other then primitive, animalistic, intelligence, and tactics use.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Episodes 2 and 4 also show that the Lost Spirits are incapable of resisting Jormag for long, and that no matter how much they resist, they will fall in line to Jormag and against their own morals. Any resistance they offer - like helping open a door or killing Drakkar - is temporary. If we apply this same rule to the Great Spirits, who are only called such because they're the primarily revered spirits and unless their strength comes from worship has no bearing on their strength compared to other Spirits of the Wild, then Primordus should corrupt them and result in them being unable to resist Primordus for more than short bursts. Which seems a really bad ploy if their the only thing keeping Braham resisting except for short bursts.

One could theorycraft and speculate that the reason why Braham succumbed to Primordus' behavior in the DRM is because the Great Spirits themselves succumbed for a bit, but the five were all talking about how they'd "get in and get out" (more or less) before Primordus could influence the Great Spirits.

Either way, we're stuck going "okay, so why can they do it, when the others couldn't" with only baseless speculation to answer us. Some theorycrafting to explain questions is good and all, but when you have a foundation of nothing to explain critical questions, that's just proof of bad writing.Difference being is that the Lost Spirits of the Wild were corrupted, while the greater spirits were not. If a corrupted spirit could regain its freedom, even temporarily, then it makes sense the greater ones could work freely when not actually corrupted.

Also, baseless speculation, by its very name, requires speculation with nothing to base it on, we do have something to base it on, so, by definition, it cannot be baseless. Using buzzwords does not help your arguments. Especially when used wrong.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:A claim that was created this release, and doesn't make sense. Ever since Eye of the North, the destroyers are shown to be intelligent and seek out specific targets. Even in the Gendarran DRM, it's brought up how the destroyers launched a feint attack on LA to divert forces away from Ascalon Settlement.Except it wasn't Primordious who was controlling the destroyers back then, but the great destroyer, besides you can't compare Primordious's condition from back there to the one here, the great amount of magic released and consumed in this cycle has changed many things, probably making all knowledge we had beforehand obsolete.

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