Tengu possible next playable race?

[yefluke.3168]

This is endless discussion unless ANet clarify or give us some new info.

[Randin.5701]

It did look like the tengu girl in the story mission in particular was using a new set of animations. She definitely wasn't using the animation set of the original Caromi tengu that you find in Caledon and Kessex, in spite of using that character model. I'm less certain that she wasn't using the Quetzal animations, but after finishing the full episode I swung out to Auric Basin to check what their bow animations looked like, and I don't think she was using those either. She's standing more upright than the Caromi, but still looks like she's more hunched over than the Quetzal.

It's no "OMG, player tengu confirmed!", but it is interesting.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Leo G.4501" said:That analogy isn't congruent. I can tell why you'd make that point but it doesn't work if you try to fit "new playable races" in the place of some variable. You say this because you're filing behind the "allocation of resources" point but I don't believe asking for new races is somehow "taking away" from someone's chance at keeping things the same. Again, you have the perspective that adding a new race would require retconning of content. I'm not going to repeat why I don't agree with your assessment so rather than continuously reiterating your perspective, you can just preface your perspective instead. Like:

"Because I believe adding new races can only be done by retconning content, adding a new race like you're requesting would change old content for players that might not want it changed."

Otherwise, it is not a congruent comparison.

That depends specifically on how the new race is added to the game.The resource cost isn't as much of an issue as the conflicting lore problems in many cases although there are idea's for the addition of new races where the lore conflict isn't a factor but unrealistic resource requirements end up becoming more of an issue often due to just the lack of thought given by those who suggest the idea.

To use your own statement about "separate groups of heroes" as an example.This idea has none of the lore conflicts that cause issues for many new race suggestions but it would cause problems in terms of resources and player divide.If you introduced new races like this separate from the main campaign then you would either have to spend a great deal of resources keeping their own storylines going or you would simply have to neglect them to keep focus on the main Commander campaign.

Neither of those options are desirable.. if resources were allocated for a second story for new races it would slow down the development of the main campaign.If new races were neglected to focus on the main campaign then those who decide they want their main to be a new race would be furious that they couldn't enjoy the new story content.And as i've said over and over again you simply cannot replace the Commander role with a new race character because of how the main campaign is designed.. it literally revolves around this character.

These are just some reasons why it's just not a practical idea to introduce new races so long as the main Gw2 dragon storyline is ongoing and why it would be far better to do it post ED story.

I'm afraid you're going to have to learn to skim. Skip over posts that mainly just argue back and forth. I read those threads myself and several of the posts in each either offer up a suggestion or criticize a suggestion for adding a new race. I quoted your requests, which had the air that I haven't made a suggestion or questioned weather I have my own ideas or not. I replied previously saying I've been down that road and said you can look for yourself. So just know that, yes, I have made suggestions. Everyone of those threads I posted in, I think the earliest dating back to 2016. You can further dig up more.

Moving onto an entirely new point:

Sorry but I don't have the time to go looking through hundreds of comments only to end up guessing which ones apply to you.And I really don't want to start bringing up countless other comments that neither of us agree with and don't even matter in our discussion, it's a massive waste of my time and by extent yours as you read them.My posts are already getting too long for my liking and I don't want to bloat them even more, if anything I want to skim them down for both our sakes.

False. I have also read many suggestions critical of the whole Dragon-corruption storyline as well as the direct conflict with Dragons. Players do want varied content and stories. They don't just want to hear someone talk about how someone's city was ravage by dragon-corruption, they want to actively participate in said stories. They want more interactions and more lore that isn't directly in-line with the killing of the next big game. They want stories that focus on their race and profession and they DON'T want to just be the Commander following a story on rails. I am not sure where you've conjured that prospect from. That being said, this point isn't so much narrowed on new races but rather the scope of the storytelling of the game.

From the countless posts i've seen over the years about "how to work X race into the story".I'm not saying everyone has these same views but there is good reason as to why lore conflicts have been a common criticism in new race discussions for years, as have resource costs.The vast majority of new race requests and ideas almost always make one of those 2 reasons extremely valid, that's why they keep coming up over and over again.

There are plenty who criticise the story and I know there are a lot who are tired of this Dragon campaign and want something new but they just have to be patient, we're almost at the end now anyway and once it's finally over I would be more than happy to see Anet spend their time making new races and new stories that include them.Atm it's just not practical due to all their time and effort going into the development of the main campaign and the upcoming expansion which as far as I am aware is apparently confirmed to be the finale of the Elder Dragon story.

The story-point of the Pact and the title Commander is now being used as a cudgel to beat the story into a box, both past and future content. I have no idea why it's even consistently brought up. Can it be a hurdle when introducing a new/different player character? Acknowledged. A story can still have other sides, though.

That is because as I have said multiple times now the story of GW2 is completely built around the Commander character.The Elder Dragon campaign.. the literal main campaign of Gw2 is the Commanders story.Even in the very beginning of the game right at the end of your characters introduction the words "This is my story" are uttered by every single race to solidify that this game.. this story is all about this character, this character who will become the Commander.

That is why lore matters... why there cannot be a Tengu or Dwarf or Kodan Commander.. why they Commander is essential to this storyline and why new races cannot be introduced at the start of the personal story without massive retcons to established lore and the timeline of this game.. it just doesn't work, it cannot work without those conflicts.

The only way to do new races and do them right is to not have them associated with the last 8 years of progressing story.. to not have them in the Commanders shoes to use your own words.But the problems with doing this at any point when the main story is ongoing will always be resources and time.. any effort spent trying to work this in will be taking away from the development of the main campaign.. slowing things down and making new living world and the upcoming expansion take longer.. to make the Elder Dragon story take longer to be finished.This is why I believe doing it after End of Dragons is the best and most efficient and practical way of brining new races into this game with the minimal amount of issues.

Just to reiterate, the "5 races coming together" is the most insignificant attribute of the Commander themselves. No one attributes the greatness of the Commander's [insert race] ever. It's the PACT that has claim to that attribute and even then, only up to the point they get to talking with the other races as a story point.

This is not the issue or the point i've been making.As i've said over and over the reasons for why the commander cannot be one of the most requested races has nothing to do with the pact or the 5 races coming together, it is specifically tied to the state of those races and their culture in the world in the specific timeline for where the pact was formed.

Again to use the Tengu, the most requested race as an example.. they were blatantly Xenophobic and distrusting of all races especially humans during the Pacts founding.. they are after 8 years in the story still Xenophobic and distrusting of all races especially humans, nothing has changed with that major element of their culture.There have been only a handful.. literally single digit numbers of Dominion Tengu involved with any of the orders over the last 8 years in very minor roles.There is just no way they could make a Tengu Commander believable because of this, it's why making a Tengu story at the start of the personal story would be impossible without retconning years of established lore regarding their isolation and xenophobia.

And saying something "doesn't work" isn't an argument. Like I mentioned before: you can write a short and elegant piece, a contrived piece, a logical but flat piece explaining if something happened to the old Commander. None of those choices "doesn't work" just because it's not something you would have done.

Alright.. i'll amend my comment from "it doesn't work"To "it would be the worst storytelling ever put into this game" instead..

There is no possible way I can see that this idea would go down well for most people, speaking for myself I would honestly be done with the story if it went down that road just so a handful of new people could get their magical bird man to Mary Sue their way into the story and save the world.

I'm sorry man I don't mean to sound mean and to come across as a sarcastic *** here but this idea is painfully bad and probably one of the worst way's i've seen for adding a new race to the game >.<

And again, replacing the Commander is merely one possibility.

It really isn't.. least not a good or acceptable one.Writing the Commander out of the Elder Dragon Story would be like writing Luke Skywalker out of Return of the Jedi half way through and having Rey come out of nowhere and kill Vader and the Emperor.Oh god.. nobody give Disney that idea for the love of Yoda.

And this touches back on the whole "the perfect being the destruction of the good" point. If something is going to seem too involved or require too much work, the logical response should be looking for easier means of accomplishing those goals, not doubling down to support your argument or principles. I mean, it's fine if that's what you want to do but it's purely illogical to me and makes me question why you are trying to waste my time.

My suggestion about adding races after End of Dragons was exactly that, an easier mean of accomplishing that goal without causing any of the lore or resource issues that adding them before or during the Elder Dragon story would.You don't have to agree with that but it's hardly illogical to support a logical argument.There are more than enough merits for doing it this way than there are to do it any other way before or during the Elder Dragon storyline in which virtually every single suggestion on the subject either overlooks or straight up ignores lore continuity or is completely ignorant on the resource demands it would cost to implement.

[Blur.3465]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Blur.3465 said:After seeing the updated models of the new tengu NPCs (one in EotN and the new tengu we meet in Dragon Response mission in Caledon) I have high hopes that we may actually see them as a playable race...otherwise why go through all this effort?Changes on the new tengu in EotN and Caledon forest NPC:

• Animated eyes
• Animated plumage and ears
• High-res textures
• New idle animation, they hunch and dig a bit, they also move their heads like a bird would!

Either they are being set to become a playable race; or ANet is setting Dominion of Winds as a big city in next release/expansion.I do hope it's going to be a playable race, it's literally what I want most and I'm already thinking about all the amazing customization we could get for these amazing birds!

They updated them in hot and we dident get them as playable race in path of fire so unlikely to get it now either.

They updated the green ones yes, but not the classic model we keep seeing across the rest of Tyria. This new NPC from Caledon Forest response mission is an updated model of those and I think it's quite interesting.Not discarding the possibilty they're being set for something more than just NPCs, or ANet is going to upgrade them for the sake of 'immersion' and keeping the creatures up to date if we are to see the Tengu city.Keeping my mind open for anything though, don't see where's the harm in that :) would be nice if we got a new race and bird race is not something you see in MMOs every day. Would definitely give us some more variety rather than seeing X version of human again.

[Leo G.4501]

@Teratus.2859 said:The resource cost isn't as much of an issue as the conflicting lore problems in many cases although there are idea's for the addition of new races where the lore conflict isn't a factor but unrealistic resource requirements end up becoming more of an issue often due to just the lack of thought given by those who suggest the idea.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've read far too many posts that seemingly have unanimous agreement that scripting and following a short interlude that acts as an intro for a new race isn't the hard part, it's everything else.

@Teratus.2859 said:To use your own statement about "separate groups of heroes" as an example.This idea has none of the lore conflicts that cause issues for many new race suggestions but it would cause problems in terms of resources and player divide.If you introduced new races like this separate from the main campaign then you would either have to spend a great deal of resources keeping their own storylines going or you would simply have to neglect them to keep focus on the main Commander campaign.

Neither of those options are desirable.. if resources were allocated for a second story for new races it would slow down the development of the main campaign.If new races were neglected to focus on the main campaign then those who decide they want their main to be a new race would be furious that they couldn't enjoy the new story content.And as i've said over and over again you simply cannot replace the Commander role with a new race character because of how the main campaign is designed.. it literally revolves around this character.

These are just some reasons why it's just not a practical idea to introduce new races so long as the main Gw2 dragon storyline is ongoing and why it would be far better to do it post ED story.

You're assuming. Stop that.

When people ask for suggestions and ideas about doing something, you can't then shift the goalpost and ask "well how is it suppose to pan out? what happens with the furture plot that does this and that and blah blah blah?" There is absolutely no way someone is going to write out an idea on a forum that has the implementation, narrative body, conclusion and impact all contained in a forum post. It would be a waste of energy and the more you flesh out an idea, the less likely it would even become a spark of inspiration for a dev that might read it (for obvious reasons). You initially ask "how" and you were given a "how". You can criticize the "how much" or "where and when" but then you have now abandoned your previous position of "it cannot be done".

Conflicting lore problems can be resolved when you actually identify them, not when you assume they can possibly exist.

@Teratus.2859 said:Sorry but I don't have the time to go looking through hundreds of comments only to end up guessing which ones apply to you.

But I'm suppose to spend the time answering your every query on the matter? As for which comments apply to me, the answer is "any one suggesting possible ways to implement new races."

@Teratus.2859 said:And I really don't want to start bringing up countless other comments that neither of us agree with and don't even matter in our discussion, it's a massive waste of my time and by extent yours as you read them.My posts are already getting too long for my liking and I don't want to bloat them even more, if anything I want to skim them down for both our sakes.

Yeah, I have time to manage too.

@Teratus.2859 said:That is because as I have said multiple times now the story of GW2 is completely built around the Commander character.The Elder Dragon campaign.. the literal main campaign of Gw2 is the Commanders story.Even in the very beginning of the game right at the end of your characters introduction the words "This is my story" are uttered by every single race to solidify that this game.. this story is all about this character, this character who will become the Commander.

That is why lore matters... why there cannot be a Tengu or Dwarf or Kodan Commander.. why they Commander is essential to this storyline and why new races cannot be introduced at the start of the personal story without massive retcons to established lore and the timeline of this game.. it just doesn't work, it cannot work without those conflicts.

The only way to do new races and do them right is to not have them associated with the last 8 years of progressing story.. to not have them in the Commanders shoes to use your own words.

Do you even know why they call the main character "Commander"?

To put it bluntly, it's so the voice actors don't have to either say the character's actual player-given name or record various iterations that use some kind of race, gender or profession specific title like Tribune or Minister. Your only argument is that the societies of a race are more important than an individual's choice or that the utterance of "The 5 great races" is the stone in which the lore is struck. I'll just say that if that is what you truly believe, then you're at worse wrong and at best short-sighted.

@Teratus.2859 said:This is not the issue or the point i've been making.As i've said over and over the reasons for why the commander cannot be one of the most requested races has nothing to do with the pact or the 5 races coming together, it is specifically tied to the state of those races and their culture in the world in the specific timeline for where the pact was formed.

Again to use the Tengu, the most requested race as an example.. they were blatantly Xenophobic and distrusting of all races especially humans during the Pacts founding.. they are after 8 years in the story still Xenophobic and distrusting of all races especially humans, nothing has changed with that major element of their culture.There have been only a handful.. literally single digit numbers of Dominion Tengu involved with any of the orders over the last 8 years in very minor roles.There is just no way they could make a Tengu Commander believable because of this, it's why making a Tengu story at the start of the personal story would be impossible without retconning years of established lore regarding their isolation and xenophobia.

Okay, I have a challenge for you. Up to and after the point you join an Order, what relevance has the state of the race and culture of your character played in the lore moving forward?

I've not done any of the Living World story after the initial run of PoF but I can only ever name two: being a Sylvari in HoT and talking about the Gods in PoF. Even in those circumstances, it's mostly negligent.

Also, just because a group of people are xenophobic doesn't mean every individual in that group is. For goodness sake, drop these weak kitten arguments or save them for someone who thinks bigger of them. Seriously, we're suppose to push for gender inclusion and cultural acceptance in and out of the game but for some reason, we can't support the narrative that not every person of a race is racist and xenophobic? Criminy, there are Tengu that are in the Pact! You can't fathom a possible personal story about some bright-eyed Tengu pushing against tradition and authority to join the fight, possibly giving the player a broader understanding of why the Tengu are distrusting? If you can, then that isn't a reason the race can't be introduced, it's a reason TO introduce them to give players bigger and broader lore.

@Teratus.2859 said:I'm sorry man I don't mean to sound mean and to come across as a sarcastic *** here but this idea is painfully bad and probably one of the worst way's i've seen for adding a new race to the game >.<

Honestly, coming from you, I don't feel attacked in the least. It's not like I put any effort in concocting a paragraph to disprove your initial point (that was the whole crux here). That is to say, I didn't post my A-game. You haven't demonstrated you'd be worth that kind of effort. Not saying you're a lesser person, just saying I have time to manage too. If you were someone truly excited about talking about possible stories to put to a new race in the current game, maybe. But I'm not going to spend the mental energy or time plotting up interesting points to brainstorm if your only reason to respond is to deny every point as acceptable (the perfect being the destruction of the good).

@Teratus.2859 said:It really isn't.. least not a good or acceptable one.Writing the Commander out of the Elder Dragon Story would be like writing Luke Skywalker out of Return of the Jedi half way through and having Rey come out of nowhere and kill Vader and the Emperor.

lol it's not "writing the commander out of the story", it's "giving the position to someone else". You're either fixated on that title or position or you've broadened that word to just mean "the main character". There is an entire kitten world dealing with the crisis, you've just forgotten that.

@Teratus.2859 said:My suggestion about adding races after End of Dragons was exactly that, an easier mean of accomplishing that goal without causing any of the lore or resource issues that adding them before or during the Elder Dragon story would.You don't have to agree with that but it's hardly illogical to support a logical argument.There are more than enough merits for doing it this way than there are to do it any other way before or during the Elder Dragon storyline in which virtually every single suggestion on the subject either overlooks or straight up ignores lore continuity or is completely ignorant on the resource demands it would cost to implement.

I didn't disagree with your suggestion, I disagreed that it would be easier, better or the only way possible. You've even agreed with part of my conclusion.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Leo G.4501" said:

Okay, I have a challenge for you. Up to and after the point you join an Order, what relevance has the state of the race and culture of your character played in the lore moving forward?There's one - your link with specific mentor from Destiny's edge. Which plays a part in, for example, dungeon storylines. And those impact latter story (as by some point you are practically assumed to be good friends with all members of DE, partially due to the dungeon storylines). This, of course, can be explained with proper racial story. But, of course, that requires that part of the story to be made, which requires resources.

lol it's not "writing the commander out of the story", it's "giving the position to someone else". You're either fixated on that title or position or you've broadened that word to just mean "the main character". There is an entire kitten world dealing with the crisis, you've just forgotten that.

The problem at this point is not the title. It's the link to Aurene. That's a massive plot point, and basically requires the character to be there since at least late half of LS2.

Basically, the whole currentl storyline, while not hung on the player being the "Commander", still highes on the player being the same person. It's a role that cannot be easily given away, at least not until the current storyline ends (so, not until after EoD. Unless you want to mess with EoD storyline just to introduce a new race, which is hardly a good idea).

So, you are left with one of two choices: either accept huge storyline continuity errors, or you do (and voice) the whole already existing storyline (well, except for ls1, but including dungeons) for the new race. There's really no sensible third option for now. Any new options would appear only after the current storyline concludes (which, again, will be after EoD at the soonest - we don't really know how they're going to deal with Aurene's importance to the story after this point, but until that, it's definitely not something that can just be ignored)

[Game of Bones.8975]

Can anyone point to me where ANET has said they will/may be adding new playable races in the future? They telegraph what they are working on (even if in the most general terms) and something like a new player's race is huge news.

With each expansion you open up new races as NPCs or monsters, but no new playable races.

[Randin.5701]

@Game of Bones.8975 said:Can anyone point to me where ANET has said they will/may be adding new playable races in the future? They telegraph what they are working on (even if in the most general terms) and something like a new player's race is huge news.

With each expansion you open up new races as NPCs or monsters, but no new playable races.Well, they haven't telegraphed anything about the expansion yet, aside from the setting. Right now everything is just wishful thinking.