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Don't Rangers and Thieves ever feel bad when commanders say "No Thieves. No Rangers, Please."


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Never got kicked from a squad or told to gtfo/swap class - i'm the one declining squad invites.

Ranger being more self sufficient (and selfish) is one of the reasons why i like the class and i'd hate if that got changed one day. If i wanted to blob on a regular basis i would just play a class that is more suited for that kind of playstyle. A "zerg ranger" wouldn't play much different than those "zerg classes" we already have anyway and it also doesn't really fit into the ranger archetype. So i don't really understand those that desperately want to have a class changed instead of playing something that fits their preferred playstyle better.

And if you really want to, both ranger and thief can already work in zergs just fine, just gotta put a little bit more work into it i guess.

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Well, the commanders cant force you to not follow anyway

No, they can just be total jerks and spam you with slur as well as squad members. Have experienced enough or it.

Block and report?

Personally on one of the larger servers, and we rarely see that type of behavior from the commanders.

If people are spamming you with stuff like that, block and report. I am sure on some level that would be construed as harassment.

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@kash.9213 said:It's not hard to build as a thief to hang out in large fights but I'd rather not have my name in squad so I won't count towards dots a commander sees getting lost and make sure I don't mess up their circles and blasts. I'll join squads or groups once in awhile if they're just inviting whoever is there but I need to be at certain distances and angles during drives and whatever to get at our downs or support or to intercept something. I don't feel like there's a lot of issue around OP as much as there might have been, I think most people kind of get it.

I think the major issue comes from relatively new people.

Their feelings get hurt when the commander relegates than to irrelevance.

@meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:you need more then damage to be accepted into a comped party, you need team support/ some unique ability too.

This is the second time I'm hearing this reasoning. Aren't SB stances when shared useful anymore? I used to run a boon and stance share SB and it used to work quite well back then. Did something change regarding their functionality?

They bring nothing that others don’t do, and don’t do better.

Now... that’s not to say they don’t have some use, and some builds can be more effective than others. @Balthzar.3807 could likely give a decent rundown of how they have been able to function well in Zergs, but a larger issue comes in when many players use ranger, they don’t know a viable build to bring that brings some elements of group support, or synergy.

Lastly, some commanders don’t utilize their (the rangers) strengths effectively because those commanders are used to a specific type of commanding... They either can’t or won’t be flexible.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:They bring nothing that others don’t do, and don’t do better.

Now... that’s not to say they don’t have some use, and some builds can be more effective than others. @Balthzar.3807 could likely give a decent rundown of how they have been able to function well in Zergs, but a larger issue comes in when many players use ranger, they don’t know a viable build to bring that brings some elements of group support, or synergy.

Lastly, some commanders don’t utilize their (the rangers) strengths effectively because those commanders are used to a specific type of commanding... They either can’t or won’t be flexible.

I see. Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

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@"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:Never got kicked from a squad or told to gtfo/swap class - i'm the one declining squad invites.

Ranger being more self sufficient (and selfish) is one of the reasons why i like the class and i'd hate if that got changed one day. If i wanted to blob on a regular basis i would just play a class that is more suited for that kind of playstyle. A "zerg ranger" wouldn't play much different than those "zerg classes" we already have anyway and it also doesn't really fit into the ranger archetype. So i don't really understand those that desperately want to have a class changed instead of playing something that fits their preferred playstyle better.

And if you really want to, both ranger and thief can already work in zergs just fine, just gotta put a little bit more work into it i guess.

^This

I play ranger for its solo gameplay...I got a ready to go guardian and necro when I want to farm bags that badly

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:9 commanders out of 10 who do add a ranger to the zerg..will usually place you in a "no support" spot at the bottom or the top alongside thieves or some other "fringe" build not considered meta and at that point you may as well play outside the zerg...same thing

That is more like 50/50 for me.And then there can still be value in being part of the squad, even if unsupported.For me it works 2 ways, if a commander wants me to scout, I simply ask squad participation so I do not bleed my t6 away.Same with contesting/other tasks.

Also being able to report to the squad and not necesairily the map/world can be valuable.

But yeah when I am in a squad not scouting/contesting etc... it's 50/50 if I am in a supported party or not.

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do u really question those choices? like, seriously?

99% of rangers won't even have any group support build, and even the immobbeasts on largescale just handicap more than they help. they are easy to kill, have only melee options, good FB + scrappers (yes, both are rare enough these days) just cleanse the sh**t away in seconds.

if u cannot do anything in a squad that u can do outside of it as well, why bothering to join one? good groups need coordination, and that's absurdly hard to gain these days. the meta acceptance got sooo much more open to weird classes yet. u see berserkers, immobeasts, core guards, dragonhunters way more often in squads, what however only leads to overall bigger sustain issues.the FBs need to be extrawoke, which many aren't, leading to disasterous fights. the classic composition provides way less sheer damage, but far more synergy.

in the end the ongoing of how squads look is just sad. it's not fun to play a damage class, if in 8/10 fights u live way longer than your firebrand. (probably some genius pepebrands who thought they'll try axe for more dps... trading a lot of aegis for a pull, sabotaging your own squad)

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Well, the commanders cant force you to not follow anyway

No, they can just be total jerks and spam you with slur as well as squad members. Have experienced enough or it.

i have never witnessed that, at least from a commander who is well known. com will ask you to reroll to something else or leave.

Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all (same as i don't meet bots in plat but i know they exist in lower ranks). I am not saying every commi does it but it occurred too many times to just ignore it. Reporting doesn't help much as support doesn't bother with verbal abuse unless roleplayers are affected. Once again, i am not expecting anything from comis or wvw community at this point outside of:

  • Anet giving support spec to thief
  • WvW community to stop to QQ about roamers
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lolol. Here we go again, and again. In one corner we have the “I really have no clue what a ranger can do” , in the other corner the true Rangers waving the SMH emoji.

I’m typically the last to die, get more kills hitting MULTIPLE targets, not single targets like people who don’t know Ranger think, and the top 10 dps overall.

AND I do both range and melee, go figure.

ya sounds useless to me. ?

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/shrugs. We do have 5 character slots and exotic gear costs almost nothing, after all. If you choose to only play 1 class, that's going to be a disadvantage at times. Also overly choosy groups tend to just find excuses to boot people out of their little circle; shouldn't get offended.

That being said some people run stuff like Arcdps and if they're kicking high performers, it's kinda their loss. However, the truth is that the average player is really bad even if in a meta build, and much less said about the average not meta player. So it's not unreasonable to expect that some random joining is going to be useless. It's unfair, yes, sadly but you can't really expect commanders to screen like a squad of 40 and find the snowflake. It's just easier to tell randoms to pick up some support roles that even a monkey can hit random buttons and still provide a lot of impact.

However, if you do make yourself known to the community, and perhaps agree to make the concession that you can switch to a desired class if really needed, then you'd have more leeway.

Social skills and all, of course. Now if the other side lacks said social skills, well, screw them. They'll probably bandwagon off eventually.

Honestly though, there are no useless classes; only useless players. (and yes putting a tag on doesn't make you useful either)

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@Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:lolol. Here we go again, and again. In one corner we have the “I really have no clue what a ranger can do” , in the other corner the true Rangers waving the SMH emoji.

I’m typically the last to die, get more kills hitting MULTIPLE targets, not single targets like people who don’t know Ranger think, and the top 10 dps overall.

AND I do both range and melee, go figure.

ya sounds useless to me. ?

Anything can do a lot of damage, the question is whether you're doing it in the right spots at the right times.Like a DH that throws a bunch of Sword of Justice and tops the DPS charts, all it's doing is cleaving, it doesn't necessarily mean it's getting kills.

Ranger has utility value in zergs for doing things like hard sniping backliners and players caught outside their group or for destroying siege in objectives. But because the majority of Rangers validate themselves by how much damage they can do or how long they survive, few are contributing anything of worth.

It isn't so much that Thieves and Rangers are useless as it is that what they provide is niche and not often needed.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Honestly though, there are no useless classes; only useless players. (and yes putting a tag on doesn't make you useful either)

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@Shroud.2307 said:

@Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:lolol. Here we go again, and again. In one corner we have the “I really have no clue what a ranger can do” , in the other corner the true Rangers waving the SMH emoji.

I’m typically the last to die, get more kills hitting MULTIPLE targets, not single targets like people who don’t know Ranger think, and the top 10 dps overall.

AND I do both range and melee, go figure.

ya sounds useless to me. ?

Anything can do a lot of damage, the question is whether you're doing it in the right spots at the right times.Like a DH that throws a bunch of Sword of Justice and tops the DPS charts, all it's doing is cleaving, it doesn't necessarily mean it's getting kills.

Ranger has utility value in zergs for doing things like hard sniping backliners and players caught outside their group or for destroying siege in objectives. But because the majority of Rangers validate themselves by how much damage they can do or how long they survive, few are contributing anything of worth.

It isn't so much that Thieves and Rangers are useless as it is that what they provide is niche and not often needed.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Honestly though, there are no useless classes; only useless players. (and yes putting a tag on doesn't make you useful either)

Probably one of the most objectively based explanations of ranger/thief issues for squads.

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@Shroud.2307 said:

@Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:lolol. Here we go again, and again. In one corner we have the “I really have no clue what a ranger can do” , in the other corner the true Rangers waving the SMH emoji.

I’m typically the last to die, get more kills hitting MULTIPLE targets, not single targets like people who don’t know Ranger think, and the top 10 dps overall.

AND I do both range and melee, go figure.

ya sounds useless to me. ?

Anything can do a lot of damage, the question is whether you're doing it in the right spots at the right times.Like a DH that throws a bunch of Sword of Justice and tops the DPS charts, all it's doing is cleaving, it doesn't necessarily mean it's getting kills.

Ranger has utility value in zergs for doing things like hard sniping backliners and players caught outside their group or for destroying siege in objectives. But because the majority of Rangers validate themselves by how much damage they can do or how long they survive, few are contributing anything of worth.

It isn't so much that Thieves and Rangers are useless as it is that what they provide is niche and not often needed.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Honestly though, there are no useless classes; only useless players. (and yes putting a tag on doesn't make you useful either)

That’s true. It’s positioning and knowing where to hit etc. All comes with experience. But with that experience you can be very useful. Problem is, yes I’m saying it, most Rangers just do NOT know how to play their class well enough.

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People's identities shouldn't be tied to one class. Branch out and learn new things. Then you can't be offended if someone asks something as simple as "can you bring another more useful class?".

Ideally things would be balanced so they have a viable place in big fights, but instead of waiting for something that probably won't ever happen, just adjust!

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@"Shroud.2307" said:Ranger has utility value in zergs for doing things like hard sniping backliners and players caught outside their group or for destroying siege in objectives.Except well... they dont. Not anymore at least. Zergs today have so much sustain that focus groups has long since become obsolete. Commanders dont utilize them because commanders dont want to utilize them and the impact of loose players around the zerg is negligable. Not even when there is a full 50 man do we see secondary squads created just for focus, because additional tags - even when we can now hide them - is taboo and forbidden.

I'm not saying that kind of player cant be "usefull". When I run as an flanking engie and sometimes plow into an enemy zerg backline with a lucky tornado and knock people around like ragdolls, a single push from our zerg at the right moment would wipe them. A hammer to the anvil, sort of speak. But they dont do that. Because the commander dont see it. They only see two entities stance dancing and fighting each other and thats it. The dogs barking around them are irrelevant. Its become a culture.

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Not at all.

I actually feel more bad when I constantly reject squad or party invites because I would rather not take up a slot that someone who actually wants to be in a squad/party would take.I'm perfectly content running around on my own or following a Zerg and doing my own thing while they do theirs.

I will never be a high level competitive player, I don't enjoy that content enough to work for that so I'll not put myself in a position where I am constantly a hinderance on a group.So it's better I stay out of squads, do not actively take on a defined competitive role and just help them get kills and take out siege etc, and they don't have to worry about me if I fall behind or get downed either.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:Ranger has utility value in zergs for doing things like hard sniping backliners and players caught outside their group or for destroying siege in objectives.Except well... they dont. Not anymore at least. Zergs today have so much sustain that focus groups has long since become obsolete. Commanders dont utilize them because commanders dont
want
to utilize them and the impact of loose players around the zerg is negligable. Not even when there is a full 50 man do we see secondary squads created just for focus, because additional tags - even when we can now hide them - is taboo and forbidden.

I'm not saying that kind of player cant be "usefull". When I run as an flanking engie and sometimes plow into an enemy zerg backline with a lucky tornado and knock people around like ragdolls, a single push from our zerg at the right moment would wipe them. A hammer to the anvil, sort of speak. But they dont do that. Because the commander dont see it. They only see two entities stance dancing and fighting each other and thats it. The dogs barking around them are irrelevant. Its become a culture.

If only there was a way for you to alert the commander to what you were doing so they could act on your initiative generating actions instead of assuming the game mode revolves around you and that all should be aware of your presence.

I mean, at least 50% of commanders now a days can barely recognize what their own squad is doing in relation to the enemies. Try to factor in a bunch of green names of which more than half are probably skill clickers running some rabid magi mix 'because it's what I like to run'? That's a tall order, not everyone is omniscient.

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