Rifle

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

As you may have guessed from the Omnibus thread I am no fan of what Anet has done to Warrior Rifle, indeed I crap over its DPS in competitive play often. I love the weapon, but its overall damage has been lackluster since launch outside of meme builds

That said, I've been playing with it more with non Memeflame or Memeshot builds (i.e. not glass cannon, but as a anti-kiting set with marauder gear+defensive runes), and I come to a few realizations.

1) In its current state Rifle is NOT a 1v1 weapon against any decent, equally skilled, opponent. It is useful against kitters without projectile hate, and it will help you against them and get some kills that you would not otherwise get, but it is not a weapon for 1v1 versus equal skilled opponents. The damage just is not there to secure a kill without going full meme.

2) THAT said, this is a very insidious weapon. While the damage numbers themselves are still too low, the weapon can put 24 stacks of vulnerability on a target quickly, and if traited can annoy someone with several immobilizes and cripples.

I've been hanging towards the back of small scale in WvW and using Rifle to screw over people's evenings lately because of point number 2. When said small group comes back for more content they've made a point of targeting me first :sweat_smile:

You really ignore the warrior in the backline with a rifle at your own peril, but that is only true in the scope of small scale in WvW. This breaks down in Zerg play or 1v1 against good players.

Rifle overall, even with the 24 stacks of vulnerability, still needs something like a 10-15% boost in DPS, NOT including Gunflame, Killshot, or Volley as those are all fine. This can be done with raw damage increases on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot, something like 5-10% each nothing too crazy, and reducing the cast time of the AA.

Frankly, the effects of the current Crack Shot trait should be made baseline in regards to the added effects on the AA chains of our ranged weapons. What should be there then is for the AA chains to have increased activation times:Rifle: 0.75s -> 0.25sLongbow: 0.75s ->0.5sHarpoon Gun: 0.25s -> --s (Make it like Ranger Shortbow AA in attack speed)

I think if those changes were made within the current META that Rifle would be in the perfect spot.

The last observation I had was that the stats to really support warrior rifle just are not in the game. Hopefully when EoD goes live they will roll out new stats that will go well with warrior rifle. Something like Power/Expertise/Precision/Ferocity or Power/Expertise/Precision or Power/Expertise/Ferocity.

With those kinds of stats warrior rifle would REALLY become good.

[JTGuevara.9018]

I agree with you for the most part, rifle needs a small damage boost. However, do remember this: if you buff rifle too much, you run the risk of sustain-heavy and near unkillable warriors camping range instead of being in melee like they're supposed to. And I'm sure you know, camping range in wvw is quite rewarding! Do we really want to bolster "pirate ship" crews?...

To supplement your suggestion, I would first and foremost -- put back the pierce trait. That was honestly the worst thing Anet has done to rifle in this game. It really kneecapped rifle, in my view. Second, I would put bleeds on both the auto-attack and on Volley to mayble open up new builds and frontiers, like condi rifle.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:I agree with you for the most part, rifle needs a small damage boost. However, do remember this: if you buff rifle too much, you run the risk of sustain-heavy and near unkillable warriors camping range instead of being in melee like they're supposed to. And I'm sure you know, camping range in wvw is quite rewarding! Do we really want to bolster "pirate ship" crews?...

To supplement your suggestion, I would first and foremost -- put back the pierce trait. That was honestly the worst thing Anet has done to rifle in this game. It really kneecapped rifle, in my view. Second, I would put bleeds on both the auto-attack and on Volley to mayble open up new builds and frontiers, like condi rifle.

No disagreement, I don't think what I recommended would lead to unkillable ranged warriors, they're all rather small boosts, one of which comes with a steep versatility loss since you lose warrior's sprint as a result.

I also regret the loss of pierce and bleed on rifle, but I think that ship has sailed at this point.

[Smoosh.2718]

I'd honestly love to see changes made to both rifle and longbow.

Longbow where its effects are changed based on a trait. E.g.Longbow untraited will be a pure longrange power based weapon,Longbow traited becomes fully condition based.

Rifle to be reworked into a midrange bruiser shotgun causing AOE damage.Yes this would mean its 1 skill would need a lower damage Co as a result, but it would have more use in terms of total damage potential vs multiple targets.[Possible counter argument to this, but engineers have shotguns. Yes they do, however 'soldiers' who breach doors have shotguns and is very useful in CQC]

Why do I wish for rifle to be redesigned from scratch? It currently feels so clunky, its skills will mess up and not go off, its soley a single target weapon with almost all of the skills doing the same thing. Some of the warriors other weapons suffer from this same problem. They need to be redesigned from scratch and made new. (As a metaphor goes, if you polish a poo to become so shiny, it is still a poo.)

This way the player will have a choice of long range and mid range weapons.

In terms of range weapons, the things the warrior lacks is 1h ranged and ranged AOE weapons, Warriors ranged AOE potential is, in its current state rather poor. ( excluding Longbow burst skills ).

[Kodama.6453]

@Smoosh.2718 said:Rifle to be reworked into a midrange bruiser shotgun causing AOE damage.Yes this would mean its 1 skill would need a lower damage Co as a result, but it would have more use in terms of total damage potential vs multiple targets.[Possible counter argument to this, but engineers have shotguns. Yes they do, however 'soldiers' who breach doors have shotguns and is very useful in CQC]

I think we should keep the thematical niches distinct.

What you suggest here is like I would suggest to rework engineer's rifle into a sniper rifle, which is deadeye's whole identity.Neither is a good idea in my opinion.

It's way more interesting for the game if the different users of rifles are using them in different ways.And it would feel insanely bad for engineer players if warriors get to invade the shotgun playstyle, especially since their version most likely would turn out just better, considering that engineer's rifle is in a terrible spot right now.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:Rifle to be reworked into a midrange bruiser shotgun causing AOE damage.Yes this would mean its 1 skill would need a lower damage Co as a result, but it would have more use in terms of total damage potential vs multiple targets.[Possible counter argument to this, but engineers have shotguns. Yes they do, however 'soldiers' who breach doors have shotguns and is very useful in CQC]

I think we should keep the thematical niches distinct.

What you suggest here is like I would suggest to rework engineer's rifle into a sniper rifle, which is deadeye's whole identity.Neither is a good idea in my opinion.

It's way more interesting for the game if the different users of rifles are using them in different ways.And it would feel insanely bad for engineer players if warriors get to invade the shotgun playstyle, especially since their version most likely would turn out just better, considering that engineer's rifle is in a terrible spot right now.

That still leaves warrior lacking in AoE, but hey maybe pistol/pistol will address that. I'd take piercing back though.

Assuming rifle's range and number of targets don't change then what I mentioned above should be sufficient for rifle. A small dps boost to two of the skills and a trait to make AA faster.

That and Power dps gear with Expertise on it.

[frareanselm.1925]

Rifle doesnt have the dps of a longbow ranger, not his long range, not the same burst, not a pet...Theres not any incentive.Anet have to give us a reason to choose rifle even if it is a situational advantage.

[Caedmon.6798]

its always been a gimmick,albeit at times a strong one. I think in these times atleast the kneeldown from rifle core need to be removed. It worked in 2012 but it doesnt make sense anymore.

[Yasai.3549]

I think if Killshot can be channeled while moving, it would automatically make Rifle more viable than it ever was in the years it has been in the game.On paper, Rifle is really really nice tbh.

Autos : good and effectiveSkill 2 : Inflicts Vuln and Cripples. Really cool.Skill 3 : Dedicated DPS skillSkill 4 : Self peel and evade. Really cool.Skill 5 : Self peel as well. Regens Ammo if it hits someone. Kinda nice.

Something else I would suggest is Skill 5 swinging and hitting a target recharges 2 ammo, but swinging and missing recharges 1 ammo.

[The Boz.2038]

The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

[Kodama.6453]

@"The Boz.2038" said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@frareanselm.1925 said:Rifle doesnt have the dps of a longbow ranger, not his long range, not the same burst, not a pet...Theres not any incentive.Anet have to give us a reason to choose rifle even if it is a situational advantage.

I've out ranged rangers on longbow with rifle before. Soulbeast and core. Grant it they were terrible rangers, but you would be surprised how many people d not realize that volley tracks through stealth if you hit it prior to stealth activating.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Yasai.3549 said:I think if Killshot can be channeled while moving, it would automatically make Rifle more viable than it ever was in the years it has been in the game.On paper, Rifle is really really nice tbh.Yeah, on paper it is. On paper...Autos : good and effectiveIn competitive it feels too slow to me tbh. Effective as a +1 though.Skill 2 : Inflicts Vuln and Cripples. Really cool.And a traitable immobilize with Leg Specialist.Skill 3 : Dedicated DPS skillBread and butter.Skill 4 : Self peel and evade. Really cool.And another immobilize.Skill 5 : Self peel as well. Regens Ammo if it hits someone. Kinda nice.Easy to avoid it by walking into the warrior though.Something else I would suggest is Skill 5 swinging and hitting a target recharges 2 ammo, but swinging and missing recharges 1 ammo.I would have to disagree on that one. If you do take crack shot the CD on 2 and 3 are short enough that whiffing on Riflebutt doesn't hurt too bad.

Rifle really is almost there as a weapon. it just falls short a bit, hence my suggestions.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"The Boz.2038" said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

There aren't any damage condis you are right. But there is a great deal of vulnerability, cripple, and immobilize on it. Enough so that having expertise on a power set would make the weapon shine really well, and be very annoying to fight against.

[The Boz.2038]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"The Boz.2038" said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

I exaggerated, but berserker's gun flame has a significant part of the damage delivered as burning, whereas core and spellbreaker just don't do much for rifle at all.

[The Boz.2038]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"The Boz.2038" said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

There aren't any damage condis you are right. But there is a great deal of vulnerability, cripple, and immobilize on it. Enough so that having expertise on a power set would make the weapon shine really well, and be very annoying to fight against.

It still amazes me how the attribute sets have no "power, but with expertise" combination at all. Power, precision, ferocity, expertise. That'd be sweet.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@The Boz.2038 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@The Boz.2038 said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

I exaggerated, but berserker's gun flame has a significant part of the damage delivered as burning, whereas core and spellbreaker just don't do much for rifle at all.

One stack of burning does not make Rifle a condi weapon. Honestly they should just remove the burn stack.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@The Boz.2038 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@The Boz.2038 said:The weapons need to be polarized, leaned more into their Power or Condi natures. The kinda-but-not-really-but-half-and-half approach of Rifle and Longbow (which are 60-40 and 40-60 Power-Condi, respectively) doesn't really work. And the skills are clunky to use.

Wait, what? How is warrior's rifle even remotely condi?

There is literally not a single damaging condition on core warrior's rifle, it is entirely about power damage.How did you come up with the idea that rifle is "60/40 power-condi"?

There aren't any damage condis you are right. But there is a great deal of vulnerability, cripple, and immobilize on it. Enough so that having expertise on a power set would make the weapon shine really well, and be very annoying to fight against.

It still amazes me how the attribute sets have no "power, but with expertise" combination at all. Power, precision, ferocity, expertise. That'd be sweet.

I think that we are due for a set or two like that come EoD.

[Vancho.8750]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:Rifle to be reworked into a midrange bruiser shotgun causing AOE damage.Yes this would mean its 1 skill would need a lower damage Co as a result, but it would have more use in terms of total damage potential vs multiple targets.[Possible counter argument to this, but engineers have shotguns. Yes they do, however 'soldiers' who breach doors have shotguns and is very useful in CQC]

I think we should keep the thematical niches distinct.

What you suggest here is like I would suggest to rework engineer's rifle into a sniper rifle, which is deadeye's whole identity.Neither is a good idea in my opinion.

It's way more interesting for the game if the different users of rifles are using them in different ways.And it would feel insanely bad for engineer players if warriors get to invade the shotgun playstyle, especially since their version most likely would turn out just better, considering that engineer's rifle is in a terrible spot right now.Well I think warrior rifle should kinda be Assault rifle and they were going in that direction with it with last rework but it is still not there. Engi gets shotgun, thief gets sniper warrior assault fitting ain't it.The Kill shot doesn't fit since it is a sniper thing, but the gun flame does.The auto attack should be probably semi automatic 3 shots though to speed up the adrenaline generation. The rifle needs some love in the AoE department since it would be nice to have a power ranged option for PVE. Aimed shot is lame skill that is just basic attack that cripples with terrible telegraph since it is almost the same as basic attack and the fucking Brutal shot should be active dodge instead of the crap that is now get hit with everything then dodge and the imob is pointless first since most of its durations will be over till the dodge finishes. Also a reduction of range with the changes would be needed but it can be seen as nerf/buff since most utility skills on warrior are for melee.The rifle is really clunky to use and should probably be faster paced weapon either by being good in combination with another weapon set where you weave skills between them or a standalone main weapon that uses a secondary set just for ou shit moments. As of right now it just too berried into a niche to the point that is not even good for open world PVE.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:Rifle to be reworked into a midrange bruiser shotgun causing AOE damage.Yes this would mean its 1 skill would need a lower damage Co as a result, but it would have more use in terms of total damage potential vs multiple targets.[Possible counter argument to this, but engineers have shotguns. Yes they do, however 'soldiers' who breach doors have shotguns and is very useful in CQC]

I think we should keep the thematical niches distinct.

What you suggest here is like I would suggest to rework engineer's rifle into a sniper rifle, which is deadeye's whole identity.Neither is a good idea in my opinion.

It's way more interesting for the game if the different users of rifles are using them in different ways.And it would feel insanely bad for engineer players if warriors get to invade the shotgun playstyle, especially since their version most likely would turn out just better, considering that engineer's rifle is in a terrible spot right now.Well I think warrior rifle should kinda be Assault rifle and they were going in that direction with it with last rework but it is still not there. Engi gets shotgun, thief gets sniper warrior assault fitting ain't it.BingoThe Kill shot doesn't fit since it is a sniper thing, but the gun flame does.Bingo again. Gunflame is kind of like an under the barrel grenade launcher on the assault rifle. You can argue that DE took away Warrior's sniper game and does it better. In which case I'm all for removing Kill Shot and putting something else there. I proposed a Salt Shot burst in the omnibus thread, as a frontal cone daze attack. That would work really well, especially with Spellbreaker.The auto attack should be probably semi automatic 3 shots though to speed up the adrenaline generation. The rifle needs some love in the AoE department since it would be nice to have a power ranged option for PVE. Aimed shot is lame skill that is just basic attack that cripples with terrible telegraph since it is almost the same as basic attack and the kitten Brutal shot should be active dodge instead of the kitten that is now get hit with everything then dodge and the imob is pointless first since most of its durations will be over till the dodge finishes. Also a reduction of range with the changes would be needed but it can be seen as nerf/buff since most utility skills on warrior are for melee.Hence why I mentioned in this thread that Aimed Shot and Brutal shot should see a small damage bump of 5%-10% and for Crack Shots current effects on Longbow and Harpoon Gun to be made baseline and for Crack Shot to reduce the AA attack speeds of the three weapons. Not by the same amount mind you, but the Rifle AA would hit at a 0.25s interval. I'm even open to giving it the Ranger Shortbow attack speed. Given the bleed on Crossfire the two AA's are on the same power level but Fierce Shot takes twice as long to attack.The rifle is really clunky to use and should probably be faster paced weapon either by being good in combination with another weapon set where you weave skills between them or a standalone main weapon that uses a secondary set just for ou kitten moments. As of right now it just too berried into a niche to the point that is not even good for open world PVE.Again, Bingo.

The ammo system was an improvement, but they then nerfed the damage too much in the Feb2020 Mistake Patch. Having some more raw damage on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot in conjunction with a much faster AA and it would be perfect. Kill Shot being rooted/highly telegraphed is another debate, but with power gear with expertise on it if that is released with EoD (Power/Precision/Ferocity/Expertise) then the self root and cast time wouldn't matter.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The ammo system was an improvement, but they then nerfed the damage too much in the Feb2020 Mistake Patch. Having some more raw damage on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot in conjunction with a much faster AA and it would be perfect.Nerfed too much, hm. I've been using the warrior rifle lately because I wanted to get some variation from my engineer and its so stupidly better than the engineer rifle its unbelievable.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The ammo system was an improvement, but they then nerfed the damage too much in the Feb2020 Mistake Patch. Having some more raw damage on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot in conjunction with a much faster AA and it would be perfect.Nerfed too much, hm. I've been using the warrior rifle lately because I wanted to get some variation from my engineer and its so stupidly better than the engineer rifle its unbelievable.

That has more to do with how clunky engi rifle is. I can't stand that weapon, it is one of the worst weapon sets in the game in my opinion. The ammo system did improve the flow of warrior rifle, but they cut the damage too far in Feb2020. They halved the damage for the ammo, which is fine on the whole, but rifle on the whole did not need even further damage cuts that they did on top of that for their competitive 'balance.'

[Vancho.8750]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The ammo system was an improvement, but they then nerfed the damage too much in the Feb2020 Mistake Patch. Having some more raw damage on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot in conjunction with a much faster AA and it would be perfect.Nerfed too much, hm. I've been using the warrior rifle lately because I wanted to get some variation from my engineer and its so stupidly better than the engineer rifle its unbelievable.

That has more to do with how clunky engi rifle is. I can't stand that weapon, it is one of the worst weapon sets in the game in my opinion. The ammo system did improve the flow of warrior rifle, but they cut the damage too far in Feb2020. They halved the damage for the ammo, which is fine on the whole, but rifle on the whole did not need even further damage cuts that they did on top of that for their competitive 'balance.'Here is one of my criteria about weapons being good enough.Is it good for open world PVE? In the case for rifle nope.Rifle just doesn't work there it is better to run longbow even on a power build for ranged option. You cant leverage skills or traits with rifle , for example when entering berserk procs 3 stacks for traits like Berserker's Power but it has to be in melee range. Rifle isn't that good in melee it has only Rifle Butt, that seems really odd skill there, but what if it had another melee skill Lets say instead of Aimed shot it had Bayonet charge (some glowy knife pops in front of the barrel like how the necro staff gets scythe and the warrior charges in, maybe even gets adrenaline if it hits to combo into burst skill ), so rifle gets in and out melee ranged gameplay loop.Some fitting Over the top Scream Aim Fire gameplay right there.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The ammo system was an improvement, but they then nerfed the damage too much in the Feb2020 Mistake Patch. Having some more raw damage on Aimed Shot and Brutal Shot in conjunction with a much faster AA and it would be perfect.Nerfed too much, hm. I've been using the warrior rifle lately because I wanted to get some variation from my engineer and its so stupidly better than the engineer rifle its unbelievable.

That has more to do with how clunky engi rifle is. I can't stand that weapon, it is one of the worst weapon sets in the game in my opinion. The ammo system did improve the flow of warrior rifle, but they cut the damage too far in Feb2020. They halved the damage for the ammo, which is fine on the whole, but rifle on the whole did not need even further damage cuts that they did on top of that for their competitive 'balance.'Here is one of my criteria about weapons being good enough.Is it good for open world PVE? In the case for rifle nope.Rifle just doesn't work there it is better to run longbow even on a power build for ranged option. You cant leverage skills or traits with rifle , for example when entering berserk procs 3 stacks for traits like Berserker's Power but it has to be in melee range. Rifle isn't that good in melee it has only Rifle Butt, that seems really odd skill there, but what if it had another melee skill Lets say instead of Aimed shot it had Bayonet charge (some glowy knife pops in front of the barrel like how the necro staff gets scythe and the warrior charges in, maybe even gets adrenaline if it hits to combo into burst skill ), so rifle gets in and out melee ranged gameplay loop.Some fitting Over the top Scream Aim Fire gameplay right there.

Depends on the content. OW Tagging like in the Mad King's Labyrinth? Aweful. Silverwastes? Works fine. If you're just tagging the event rather than the mob its fine. And if you are fighting a champion/legendary nothing is keeping you from firing a rifle at point blank range to get T3 Berserker's Power when you go into Berserk Mode, but that particular issue is from Anet making too many of the Burst related traits only proc upon hitting rather than upon consumption of Adrenaline.

I use Rifle fairly often in meta events but then my concern there isn't tagging mobs, though volley tags just fine.. I'm able to tag fairly well on GS with GS3, GS4, and Arc Divider.

Rifle Butt is to keep a target at range, but the ammo recharge rider on it pushes people into melee. Maybe Rifle Butt should be have a 400-600 range charge added to it?

[DKRathalos.9625]

We need like uh.... more solid warrior ranged weapon to AoE, Longbow isn't really cut it IMO?