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Icebrood Saga Champions: only 1 true surprise, execution thoughts and one major beef(rant).


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Nothing story wise that was released on the 9th was truly a surprise:Tengu shot of so hard they literally do not know what's going on outside their walls? typical retroactive excuse fro when ever tengu should have at least reacted in the pastJormag not understanding what they are doing is bad? OH GEE a immortal ice being that used PRESERVE in reference to saving a world, WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK (certainly not lore theorists.Brahm going primordus champ? well it was plastered all over the place so not really a surprise.

The only true surprise was canach's appearance aiding us in one DRM and of course the voice acting of his as Di margio is probably busy with animaniacs.

SO far it does sounds a bit pessimistic BUT thats merely on the level of twists and surprises.Presentation wise the story in this update is exceptionally descent, reactions of character to horrible atrocities are on point, Jokes are just right to loosen the tightness of the dire situations. The pacing was competent and right on spot. Music use as decent as ever, variety in locals are enough to not get boring at all, the wolf form is a bit clunky but its obvious what anet tried to do there (maybe prototype for usable balanced norn transformations?)It's not a masterpiece, but sure as hell is not anything bad....

EXCEPT....(excuse me this going to be rant from here on out and does not effect the content patch itself but something more long term that has been an issue of discussion for years)

The beginning of the Saga's final was over shadowed in the character department with one GLARING issue.Taimi.In the past I was one of the few that played devil's advocate and tried to find, usually successfully, bits and points to bring absolute Taimi haters to at least say "Fine I guess" ( of course not all but those I found), as most people who did like taimi never really bothered to find actual good arguments to defend her (no, you guys didn't) and just wrote haters off entirely without even considering they might have an angle.However the Metrica DRM confronted me with something that I could not at the best of my abilities excuse or defend:Taimi's blatant disregard of what just happened for MONTHS right before the final.

The commander and Brahm together have witnessed for months friends and comrade lynch each other in the frozen north after listening to the voice whispering into their ears, Fallen beasts kodan and Norn shamans have been twisted and warped into instruments of violence and betrayal. Jormag's forces on the dragon's behalf mowing down anyone that stood in their way, with jormag ONLY offering to talk after it's forces pushed into a corner. And then only to start civil war by influencing bangar and ryland through suggestions.ALL THAT is nothing to Taimi as some fire bois try to "burn down the Asuran"...cough cough"STONE MADE HOMES!"

I jest as asuran lives were also in danger, but taimi completely ignored everything that the commander and brahm witnessed FOR MONTHS, including that trusting jormag can only backfire (see bangar) and supported full heartedly the alliance with jormag. (and the commander's retorts where not great either)She did only stated that jormag has to be dealt with eventually as if it was more of an annoyance than a threat, as she "rationalized" for herself ANY potential danger away to provide jormag information and intel ( "JoRmAg CaN bE sPoKeN wItH, rEaSoNeD wiTh*snobbish undertone"). Not only do we all know that Jormag abused this knowledge to attack lake doric but it also prompted jormag to act like that in the first place.Taimi is in part responsible for what happened at lake doric and snowden drift and what's still going to happen.

Now one might say she is horrified by the actions of Jormag and the frost legion. And while it is indeed true, it is also true that no responsibility was pinned in part to her AT ALL in the writing and delivery.It is the first time that I can not from a story perspective tolerate the character protection that is done here, intentional or not.I do not ask for taimi to be torture or imprisoned. BUT the story need some small catharsis, snapping at her with one or two words in a condescending tone....but nothing.

The perfect opportunity would have been when the commander repeated Taimi's line "the council got what it wanted". A sarcastic undertone when emphasizing "the council" with taimi getting spooked would have been ENOUGH. Just something from that caliber really that states "YES, YOU'VE DONE FUDGED UP, TAIMI!"

And I do not ask for this because I "hate taimi". I say that most times those who did hate on her are expecting to much, sometimes even completely ridiculous things just to hate on her.But in the context discussing taimi as a character and how she is written and finding some level benefit of doubt towards her in the past, it'd be hypocritical of me NOT to call this writing-blunder out.And it's not that it would have been 5-10 min more content, just literally a different emphasis on one term and a tiny spooked squeak from the asura could have made ALL the difference.Could they address it later? Sure they could but knowing how A-net handles their writing and such things, this is a detail they probably didn't even bother to notice. so I doubt they actually WILL address it even in the smallest possible form ever.

So in short as much as I dislike it to say, this time if someone dislikes Taimi or how she is handled as a character in the Icebrood Sage final...they have all right reasons to do so.

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Yeah man, I agree. Taimi's actions are absolutely unthinkable. We all know why it was going to be this way. My biggest concern is that GW2 is rapidly circling the drain, and it makes me sad to think it may be gone soon. They simply don't have the resources or willpower to continue supporting the game. We are flying through the rest of the story at warp speed, with less content per plotline then ever. We were teased the the tengu were coming back, because we wanted to see Cantha again. And this was a very cheap way to generate excitement in the community. The best I can hope for is a "Little Cantha" somewhere in Tyria. We will never see Cantha again.

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@"Metalripper.5406" said:Yeah man, I agree. Taimi's actions are absolutely unthinkable. We all know why it was going to be this way. My biggest concern is that GW2 is rapidly circling the drain, and it makes me sad to think it may be gone soon. They simply don't have the resources or willpower to continue supporting the game. We are flying through the rest of the story at warp speed, with less content per plotline then ever. We were teased the the tengu were coming back, because we wanted to see Cantha again. And this was a very cheap way to generate excitement in the community. The best I can hope for is a "Little Cantha" somewhere in Tyria. We will never see Cantha again.

Anyone who thinks we'll never see Cantha again is ignoring the entire game's history. Before HoT launched, it was like we'll never have an expansion. This game is over. Then HoT was announced. We were never going to have mounts, or return to Elona either. Then that happened. The reason there's so much less content is because the expansion hadn't been planned and they pulled people from LS story groups to work on it. What you're seeing isn't evidence that Anet has given up. It's evidence that Anet is continuing. You're just seeing it from a rather pessimistic point of view.

I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.

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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

The whole theme of the game is that time marches on and you can't stop progress, even if you're an Elder Dragon.

Its literally what the game's been about since the beginning. The story of the Pact Commander isn't of some chosen hero who was destined to save the world, its of someone who was just in the right place at the right time in the right era.

The PC is basically the Tyrian equivalent of "..and I have a big gun" most of the time.

They justified Elona being stuck in time by Joko stalling any progress, but I don't expect the same with Cantha.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

The whole theme of the game is that time marches on and you can't stop progress, even if you're an Elder Dragon.

Its literally what the game's been about since the beginning. The story of the Pact Commander isn't of some chosen hero who was destined to save the world, its of someone who was just in the right place at the right time in the right era.

The PC is basically the Tyrian equivalent of "..and I have a big gun" most of the time.

They justified Elona being stuck in time by Joko stalling any progress, but I don't expect the same with Cantha.Time can march on without making everything look silly and ridiculous.
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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

The whole theme of the game is that time marches on and you can't stop progress, even if you're an Elder Dragon.

Its literally what the game's been about since the beginning. The story of the Pact Commander isn't of some chosen hero who was destined to save the world, its of someone who was just in the right place at the right time in the right era.

The PC is basically the Tyrian equivalent of "..and I have a big gun" most of the time.

They justified Elona being stuck in time by Joko stalling any progress, but I don't expect the same with Cantha.Time can march on without making everything look silly and ridiculous.

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

The whole theme of the game is that time marches on and you can't stop progress, even if you're an Elder Dragon.

Its literally what the game's been about since the beginning. The story of the Pact Commander isn't of some chosen hero who was destined to save the world, its of someone who was just in the right place at the right time in the right era.

The PC is basically the Tyrian equivalent of "..and I have a big gun" most of the time.

They justified Elona being stuck in time by Joko stalling any progress, but I don't expect the same with Cantha.Time can march on without making everything look silly and ridiculous.

Obviously a matter of taste since I don't feel like anything looks ridiculous.

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As we know Taimi won't get very old due to some illness/weakness. Perhaps we see Taimis end whithin the next story parts, because ANet cannot let her die in pain over some time. But yes, she is very convinced of Jormag being good.

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@"Galmac.4680" said:But yes, she is very convinced of Jormag being good.

She never says she believes Jormag to be "good". She rather puts it in a "better the devil you know" manner. But I agree that her stance is a bit odd and naive for the character.

I am not a Taimi fan, mind you, but even I found some of her wording during this season rather unfortunate and "anti-smart". She has seen so much evil during her short life and she never let herself fall victim to obvious manipulation - so her naive statements about Jormag don't make much sense to me for the character, either.

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@"Metalripper.5406" said:Yeah man, I agree. Taimi's actions are absolutely unthinkable. We all know why it was going to be this way. My biggest concern is that GW2 is rapidly circling the drain, and it makes me sad to think it may be gone soon. They simply don't have the resources or willpower to continue supporting the game. We are flying through the rest of the story at warp speed, with less content per plotline then ever. We were teased the the tengu were coming back, because we wanted to see Cantha again. And this was a very cheap way to generate excitement in the community. The best I can hope for is a "Little Cantha" somewhere in Tyria. We will never see Cantha again.

GW2 isn't going anywhere. Some of the team said on stream they wanted to work on an expansion after LWS4 but It was decided they would do the Icebrood saga instead and then half way trough the Icebrood Saga they got the go ahead for an expansion and had to shift focus onto that. That's why the story feels short and rushed, Champions is wrapping up what should've been a much larger story with a very small team while the rest are working on the End of Dragons Expansion coming later this year.

As for seeing Cantha again, I don't know if you've seen but the concept art they showed for EoD are locations in Cantha.

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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

Oh yes, between the airships, charr choppers, robo warriors and tanks, we are essentially in the modern day now. With humans left desperately behind.

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Galmac.4680" said:But yes, she is very convinced of Jormag being good.

She never says she believes Jormag to be "good". She rather puts it in a "better the devil you know" manner. But I agree that her stance is a bit odd and naive for the character.

I am not a Taimi fan, mind you, but even I found some of her wording during this season rather unfortunate and "anti-smart". She has seen so much evil during her short life and she never let herself fall victim to obvious manipulation - so her naive statements about Jormag don't make much sense to me for the character, either.

We have repeatedly seen her self-righteous "good intentions" SEVERELY blow up in her face, what? 3? 4? times now?

@Solanum.6983 said:

@"Metalripper.5406" said:Yeah man, I agree. Taimi's actions are absolutely unthinkable. We all know why it was going to be this way. My biggest concern is that GW2 is rapidly circling the drain, and it makes me sad to think it may be gone soon. They simply don't have the resources or willpower to continue supporting the game. We are flying through the rest of the story at warp speed, with less content per plotline then ever. We were teased the the tengu were coming back, because we wanted to see Cantha again. And this was a very cheap way to generate excitement in the community. The best I can hope for is a "Little Cantha" somewhere in Tyria. We will never see Cantha again.

GW2 isn't going anywhere. Some of the team said on stream they wanted to work on an expansion after LWS4 but It was decided they would do the Icebrood saga instead and then half way trough the Icebrood Saga they got the go ahead for an expansion and had to shift focus onto that. That's why the story feels short and rushed, Champions is wrapping up what should've been a much larger story with a very small team while the rest are working on the End of Dragons Expansion coming later this year.

As for seeing Cantha again, I don't know if you've seen but the concept art they showed for EoD are locations in Cantha.

I really hope your are right, but at this point, I am not optimistic. Only time will tell.

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@"Metalripper.5406" said:We have repeatedly seen her self-righteous "good intentions" SEVERELY blow up in her face, what? 3? 4? times now?

While that may be true, I don't see her fall for an obvious manipulation like Jormag's. But I admit that her character has had inconsistency issues before.

@Blockhead Magee.3092 said:Her time as a badly used plot device needs to come to an end.

Agreed.

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@"Ashantara.8731" said:She never says she believes Jormag to be "good". She rather puts it in a "better the devil you know" manner. But I agree that her stance is a bit odd and naive for the character.

I am not a Taimi fan, mind you, but even I found some of her wording during this season rather unfortunate and "anti-smart". She has seen so much evil during her short life and she never let herself fall victim to obvious manipulation - so her naive statements about Jormag don't make much sense to me for the character, either.

This is where I remind everyone that when Taimi first appeared, she was a serious Scarlet Briar fangirl, and got mildly called out on it at least once during Season 1. Jormag may not be using a lot of interesting tech, but it IS effectively hitting a target her people have been unable to deal with for ages. I can see her going a bit fangirl again, with the same lack of wisdom or concern over just who/what she's fangirling over.

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The problem isn’t Taimi, the problem is whoever is writing her. I mean, she’s the one who informed us killing more elder dragons will end the world, which isn’t a concept she references once iirc as she debates the need to kill Primordus.

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I have seen a lot of mention of prior blunders of taimi and this were i usually stepped in the past and found the benefit of doubt. usually in the form of people expecting her to act a certain way because of announcements and or leaks that happened outside the games story in many cases. This probably a general issue with GW2 writing is that it's either announced a had of time OR very save and predictable. Like look at ANY speculation of wooden potatoes which go deep in the lore or fill the world with depth and interesting twists and then 2 weeks later it turns out to be not that. (seriously you can make bets on it and go "hmm what does WP hope for and speculate on today? ah this and that?=yeah either never going to happen or so save it not worth mentioning)

And taimi fangirling again? yeah not buying it. she should be wiser simply by operating with dragon's watch. That the arcane council is blind about jormags threat i buy instantly as they are...basically all phlunts. and then there is taimi's "small sample sizes". they are just down right unscientific as they completely ignore context. you can not use aurene as an example for a "rational" ED because she is NOT like them, AT ALL.and using logan and rytlock as enemies that become friends? there is nothing that even reflects the situation trusting an old elder dragon. there are hudnreds of yerars of racial confrontation between charr and humans and the novel worth's relation ship between the two explaining WHY they hated each other in the core game.and I like to add that the retorts by the commander are also fucking stupid: just "small sample size"? REALLY? there is more wrong with taimi rationalizing away anything then just sample size.or that "jormag is not threatening you..." YES JORMAG IS THREATENING BRAHM. of course not bluntly but subtly. writing this post makes me think that MAYBE they wanted a rift between taimi and brahm before he goes fire boi, but they could have done that with different means and I'm not even sure if they even follow through with it if it was the plan now.and like the pattern it is, it is yet again story drizzling out of steam at the end. HOT POF and now icebrood saga. every single time there is something that made anet just go "screw it finish this now somehow, we gotta move on to new thing because new thing is better"IT PICKLES ME OFF TO NO END.

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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

Cyberpunk i've seen requested a bit.. but I agree that is something I never want to see in Gw2.I don't know what people see in all these various punk styles but I find them visually repugnant and ugly.That is just a personal opinion not an attack on anyone who does like those styles so any "offenses" taken there are not on me lol

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

Cyberpunk i've seen requested a bit.. but I agree that is something I never want to see in Gw2.I don't know what people see in all these various punk styles but I find them visually repugnant and ugly.That is just a personal opinion not an attack on anyone who does like those styles so any "offenses" taken there are not on me lol

funny enough we already HAVE steam punk in gw2 already. as unbelievable it may look but the entire charr tech is steam based, check the wiki it states it there. that goes of course into the pact tech as well and sub sequentially the aether blades. I dunno if the clockwork knights count as steam punk too as they are not powered by it BUT clockwork mechanism are part of steam punk settings often enough.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

Cyberpunk i've seen requested a bit.. but I agree that is something I never want to see in Gw2.I don't know what people see in all these various punk styles but I find them visually repugnant and ugly.That is just a personal opinion not an attack on anyone who does like those styles so any "offenses" taken there are not on me lol

agreed, cyberpunk is one of items that made LS1 a disaster.

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about Taimi, thank god shes not showed up. we have enough of inquest facilities, "scientific stuff" wherever we go. i hope they find a excuse to get ride of communicators too. A new "dragon energy" whatsover that make them useless.

now i understand why i love Bjora Marches and Drizzlewood so much 0 asura stuff there.

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@ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Cantha before the end of this year.I just hope they're not turning it into the same kind of steampunk circus they turned central Tyria into.

Cyberpunk i've seen requested a bit.. but I agree that is something I never want to see in Gw2.I don't know what people see in all these various punk styles but I find them visually repugnant and ugly.That is just a personal opinion not an attack on anyone who does like those styles so any "offenses" taken there are not on me lol

funny enough we already HAVE steam punk in gw2 already. as unbelievable it may look but the entire charr tech is steam based, check the wiki it states it there. that goes of course into the pact tech as well and sub sequentially the aether blades. I dunno if the clockwork knights count as steam punk too as they are not powered by it BUT clockwork mechanism are part of steam punk settings often enough.

Yeah I know, I'm not a fan of the steampunk stuff either tbh.

Some of it is tolerable, the Charr stuff mostly at least does fit them and it's not overbearing in it's style.. feels more industrial similarly to the Dredge in many ways and that does fit in the world.Airships and tanks are pretty much on my limits for this style, the only Charr thing that I don't care for is the Charrcopters which just look ridiculous.

The Aetherblades on the other hand.. I cannot stand their styles.. their armours look abysmally bad, like a child with utterly no fashion sense tried to design what clothes would look like 100 years in the future lolI've never like this faction in Gw2 tbh, probably the one faction I dislike the most.

Steampunk however while ugly to me is still a far cry from the visual abomination that is cyberpunk.. XDIf I get to Cantha and Kaineng looks like Neo-tokyo I think i'll just log out and take a break from GW2 lmao

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:about Taimi, thank god shes not showed up.

Ugh, her constant comments via communicator have been bad enough, though. The annoyance!

Besides, she did show up: Metrica Dragon Response Mission. Her babbling in it about how Jormag can be reasoned with is unnerving.

i hope they find a excuse to get ride of communicators too.

:+1:

now i understand why i love Bjora Marches and Drizzlewood so much 0 asura stuff there.

Huh, I never thought about it - you are right. :)

I love SAB, but that's a separate thing for me. Apart from that, I never enjoyed all the Asura tech in the game, ever - I prefer my fantasy worlds "oldschool."

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Teratus.2859 said:Yeah I know, I'm not a fan of the steampunk stuff either tbh.

Some of it is tolerable, the Charr stuff mostly at least does fit them and it's not overbearing in it's style.. feels more industrial similarly to the Dredge in many ways and that does fit in the world.Airships and tanks are pretty much on my limits for this style, the only Charr thing that I don't care for is the Charrcopters which just look ridiculous.

The Aetherblades on the other hand.. I cannot stand their styles.. their armours look abysmally bad, like a child with utterly no fashion sense tried to design what clothes would look like 100 years in the future lolI've never like this faction in Gw2 tbh, probably the one faction I dislike the most.

Steampunk however while ugly to me is still a far cry from the visual abomination that is cyberpunk.. XDIf I get to Cantha and Kaineng looks like Neo-tokyo I think i'll just log out and take a break from GW2 lmao

Well that goes with the PUNK in the name, its purposely mismatched and out of the ordinary. and on technological standpoint steampunk however does make sense to be present. steam powered machinery has even existed as so far proven by archeology already to the times of library of Alexandria and various ancient greek states through out the Mediterranean sea, the only limit ware amount of materials to make it a common sight in those timeperiods.

But back to topic.I can not see how anet is gonna salvage this if they even care this point. I really wish they'd do, but i dunno HOW. I want to hear thought about this could be done.and can we please refrain from further bashing of writing of the past?

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@ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Yeah I know, I'm not a fan of the steampunk stuff either tbh.

Some of it is tolerable, the Charr stuff mostly at least does fit them and it's not overbearing in it's style.. feels more industrial similarly to the Dredge in many ways and that does fit in the world.Airships and tanks are pretty much on my limits for this style, the only Charr thing that I don't care for is the Charrcopters which just look ridiculous.

The Aetherblades on the other hand.. I cannot stand their styles.. their armours look abysmally bad, like a child with utterly no fashion sense tried to design what clothes would look like 100 years in the future lolI've never like this faction in Gw2 tbh, probably the one faction I dislike the most.

Steampunk however while ugly to me is still a far cry from the visual abomination that is cyberpunk.. XDIf I get to Cantha and Kaineng looks like Neo-tokyo I think i'll just log out and take a break from GW2 lmao

Well that goes with the PUNK in the name, its purposely mismatched and out of the ordinary. and on technological standpoint steampunk however does make sense to be present. steam powered machinery has even existed as so far proven by archeology already to the times of library of Alexandria and various ancient greek states through out the Mediterranean sea, the only limit ware amount of materials to make it a common sight in those timeperiods.

Yeah I know, it's why some steampunk can be pretty tolerable or even aesthetically fitting at times but when it goes visually extreme like Aetherblades were it's just a nope to me lol

But back to topic.I can not see how anet is gonna salvage this if they even care this point. I really wish they'd do, but i dunno HOW. I want to hear thought about this could be done.and can we please refrain from further bashing of writing of the past?

Did I bash the writing of something?.. little confused by how you worded that.I only mocked some visual styles.. least to my knowledge :SOr were you referring to posts before mine or something?

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@ShroomOneUp.6913 said:I can not see how anet is gonna salvage this if they even care this point. I really wish they'd do, but i dunno HOW. I want to hear thought about this could be done.

I'm sorry but salvage what exactly? That a fictional character in a computer game did not do as you wanted? That's like yelling at a movie or tv show when a character does something you don't like.

Also, Taimi is an asura. If anything, I'd say she's holding back, trying hard not to insult the intellectually inferior bookahs too much. Her major character traits are that she is naive and gets too excited when doing science, but nobody is perfect and I think these flaws fit her quite nicely.

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