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Icebrood Saga Champions: only 1 true surprise, execution thoughts and one major beef(rant).


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@Teratus.2859 said:Did I bash the writing of something?.. little confused by how you worded that.I only mocked some visual styles.. least to my knowledge :SOr were you referring to posts before mine or something?not you specifically, i was talking in general as I wanted to see how people thought about THAT particular instance of taimi writing but people dirfted off to once again talking about past events where i have already defused some in my initial post

@Jukhy.2431 said:

@"ShroomOneUp.6913" said:I can not see how anet is gonna salvage this if they even care this point. I really wish they'd do, but i dunno HOW. I want to hear thought about this could be done.

I'm sorry but salvage what exactly? That a fictional character in a computer game did not do as
you
wanted? That's like yelling at a movie or tv show when a character does something you don't like.

Also, Taimi is an asura. If anything, I'd say she's holding back, trying hard not to insult the intellectually inferior bookahs too much. Her major character traits are that she is naive and gets too excited when doing science, but nobody is perfect and I think these flaws fit her quite nicely.

I'm happy that you skipped the initial post and make rhetoric generalizations to not argue the points I made and simple resort to bashing and not having a substantial argument.

To end my sarcasm i reiterate: Taimi was always a controversial topic in terms of writing. As i said in the OP which you ignored, many of those call out are mostly based on the fact that anet tended to spoil by announcements what the story is going to be and thus placed knowledge into players that used that meta knowledge to judge her in the past or confuse plot narrative and writing or just simply focusing on negatives.Once more, this is different this time around. This time not trusting jormag and ryland was part of the narrative, as we the commander and several NPCs spend weeks if not months in the shiver peaks seeing first hand how deceptive the dragon is and how easy they can convince people to murder year long friends and companions, not controlled, merely convinced to do horrible things. And those events are not secrets either, they lead right into a charr civil war at the doorsteps of the krytan kingdom no less, that ended with a fully awakened jormag. Which is important as taimi herself back in season pointed out, that if ONE of the two dragons, that being jormag and primordus, would wake up the other would so too.

And yet if you to the first story step AND the metrica DRM taimi blatantly and without and doubt is 100% joining forces with jormag, rationalizing anything away or outright ignoring very recent events entirely ( you can read it all up in the first post). and now after the 3rd part came out right after lake doric and snowden drift, taimi nor anyone else points figuratively or literally a finger at her. She just has a general distraught reaction to those two events, one any character would have regardless of past actions. She is quiet literally exempt from any of her actions and any statements she made at the very beginning of the episode ( remember its "one" episode only split up in 4 smaller parts) which i also explained in the OP how simply using a angry and sarcastic tone of ONE TERM alone and a mere squeak from taimi as a response could have changed the entire situation.

There is no naiveté in play anymore. taimi is 20 by now (yes, she is "not" a child anymore) and has since her childhood experienced deception, lies and made enough mistakes on her own to NOT do those mistakes anymore. And even if that were the case, which it isn't it, does not excuse her getting scott free this time. Like I said in the Op many other past situations are easy to rationalize and make sense if considering that many expectations were set due to knowing what's going to happen. There is however nothing of that this time around.The commander/players and anyone other character knew that trusting elder dragon like that that much is not a good idea, even more so after jormag refered to saving the world as "preserving it" (which is a writing beginners trick to let readers know in a story that the "ICE" ENTITY will do something morally wrong like " freezing people for hundreds of years is not killing them" and turn out to be a bad guy btw). And i know the "highly intelligent" asuran arcane council did trust jormag too but that is consistent with how incompetent they are with anything BUT magi-science.And again her doing what she did in those instances is not the issue.The response to that is the issue.Fine let taimi be uncharacteristically and against all character development be emotional and stupid about destroyers attacking, FINE.

But then go through with it and let other characters point fingers at her when she was more than 110% wrong with that decision and acknowledge it and do not just ignore it as if it never happened.

THAT IS MY BEEF!

And I have that beef because I did defend the character in the past, I did make the arguments and defusing ridiculous claims of what she should be accounted for and what not.I would be a hypocrite if I wouldn't call it out now.Unless you were very (idiotically) 100% convinced by the story that the dragon was actually a good guy, you would have seen it coming light years away that jormag would just betray everyone and use his position as a seemingly ally to start attacking the mortal races.

and I wanted to hear people to comment about THAT alone. not past transgressions, not how steam punk is bad looking at time. ...BUT HOW Anet could/should rectify this oversight/deliberate ignoring of that detail

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Since I read your post, I started doing DRMs again b/c I want the stretch emote and the only way I'm gonna get it is thru crafting weapon sets, so I need defense seals and prismaticite crystals.

I've been paying attention to what the NPCs are saying and now that I've been thru them more than once I'm picking up on more things they say as they go along. I missed most of this the first time around.

For Taimi, I'm wondering if her judgement is distorted by the fact that she does have that illness and is probably trying to come up with some asura-tech idea as some kind of cure or workaround. So when she sees the destroyers attacking Rata Sum, all she can think about is "OMG I can't let all these labs get attacked, I need them! I have to preserve them at any cost". That could be where her selfishness comes from. I'm not trying to make excuses, just wondering what could make her so single-minded and obtuse.

Your post is thought-provoking and I appreciate it, it gives me something to think about as I grind those DRMS for however long it takes :)

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@ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Did I bash the writing of something?.. little confused by how you worded that.I only mocked some visual styles.. least to my knowledge :SOr were you referring to posts before mine or something?not you specifically, i was talking in general as I wanted to see how people thought about THAT particular instance of taimi writing but people dirfted off to once again talking about past events where i have already defused some in my initial post

Ahh I see, thanks for clarifying ^^

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@"ShroomOneUp.6913" said:I'm happy that you skipped the initial post and make rhetoric generalizations to not argue the points I made and simple resort to bashing and not having a substantial argument.

Bashing? I did not insult you, but I'm sorry if you took it that way. Also, I read this whole thread. You should not make assumptions about others so readily.You do realize this is a fantasy MMO computer game? I think you are reacting bit too strongly.

You also seem to forget the history asuras have with Primordus' minions, how in GW:EotN the Great Destroyer massacred them. The dwarven race was also almost wiped out in the battle.So I'm sorry but I have to agree with Taimi that Primordus and his minions are the bigger threat. As she said: join forces with Jormag for now to fight Primordus together and deal with Jormag later. No one was arguing that Jormag is good, only that he is more reasonable when Primordus is basically a beast that can't be reasoned with.

Here's some Taimi's quotes from the Metrica DRM:"Look, Braham, I get where you're coming from. I do. But even if Jormag's lying, the data doesn't.""Jormag's not the one burning our world, killing our people, destroying our homes. Primordus is. We had to abandon everything. And we're not the only ones.""I'm not saying you're wrong. We can deal with Jormag later, if it comes to that. But Primordus is the threat right now."

To conclude: in your opinion Taimi's "great blunder" was using the age old rhetoric "enemy of my enemy is my friend", or in this case more of an ally. I see nothing wrong with it, but somehow it irks you she did this and didn't acknowledge it later? I'm not even sure why she should have.As I understood it, the reason why Jormag started freezing towns full of people was to balance his powers with Primordus, because he was gaining more thru the destroyers attacking and burning everything. I can't see how that is Taimi's fault either.

And as I said, I think that Taimi being imperfect fits the writing quite well. Moving on like nothing happened whenever they might be wrong is pretty much how asuras are like, most are too arrogant to admit being wrong.But as we more recently saw, Braham had different idea, wanting to control Primordus. Or are you suggesting it was Taimi's fault that Braham made that choice? He said himself that he only did it "to save his friends". Or have I completely misinterpreted the story? Because that's what happened as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and as Kaliwenda.3428 said, I too want to thank you for making this thread. I've also started to pay more attention to the dialogue and been enjoying it a lot! :)

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I feel that the story has been losing consistency over the past few years, and I hope that the writers take the player feedback seriously and try to keep things more in line. WoW writers utterly failed with that, and now the story is a joke. I really don't want the same to happen with Guild Wars 2.

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@"Uruk.3215" said:I feel that the story has been losing consistency over the past few years, and I hope that the writers take the player feedback seriously and try to keep things more in line. WoW writers utterly failed with that, and now the story is a joke. I really don't want the same to happen with Guild Wars 2.

I feel like they take the player "feedback" too seriously and even take plot ideas from the forums.The entire plot point of Braham becoming the champion of Primordus is literal forum speculation fan fiction.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Uruk.3215" said:I feel that the story has been losing consistency over the past few years, and I hope that the writers take the player feedback seriously and try to keep things more in line. WoW writers utterly failed with that, and now the story is a joke. I really don't want the same to happen with Guild Wars 2.

I feel like they take the player "feedback" too seriously and even take plot ideas from the forums.The entire plot point of Braham becoming the champion of Primordus is literal forum
speculation
fan fiction.

Agreed....

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Uruk.3215" said:I feel that the story has been losing consistency over the past few years, and I hope that the writers take the player feedback seriously and try to keep things more in line. WoW writers utterly failed with that, and now the story is a joke. I really don't want the same to happen with Guild Wars 2.

I feel like they take the player "feedback" too seriously and even take plot ideas from the forums.The entire plot point of Braham becoming the champion of Primordus is literal forum
speculation
fan fiction.

I suspect that the plot for this was written way before player feedback came into play due to how long their development takes. I did a quick search and theory sprouted once the first chapter of champions was released. That Shaman data mined all the DRMs which means they had them all ready in November. This is the story team dropping bread crumbs.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2021 at 12:27 PM, Jukhy.2431 said:

Bashing? I did not insult you, but I'm sorry if you took it that way. Also, I read this whole thread. You should not make assumptions about others so readily.You do realize this is a fantasy MMO computer game? I think you are reacting bit too strongly.

You also seem to forget the history asuras have with Primordus' minions, how in GW:EotN the Great Destroyer massacred them. The dwarven race was also almost wiped out in the battle.So I'm sorry but I have to agree with Taimi that Primordus and his minions are the bigger threat. As she said: join forces with Jormag for now to fight Primordus together and deal with Jormag later. No one was arguing that Jormag is good, only that he is more reasonable when Primordus is basically a beast that can't be reasoned with.

Here's some Taimi's quotes from the Metrica DRM:"Look, Braham, I get where you're coming from. I do. But even if Jormag's lying, the data doesn't.""Jormag's not the one burning our world, killing our people, destroying our homes. Primordus is. We had to abandon everything. And we're not the only ones.""I'm not saying you're wrong. We can deal with Jormag later, if it comes to that. But Primordus is the threat right now."

To conclude: in your opinion Taimi's "great blunder" was using the age old rhetoric "enemy of my enemy is my friend", or in this case more of an ally. I see nothing wrong with it, but somehow it irks you she did this and didn't acknowledge it later? I'm not even sure why she should have.As I understood it, the reason why Jormag started freezing towns full of people was to balance his powers with Primordus, because he was gaining more thru the destroyers attacking and burning everything. I can't see how that is Taimi's fault either.

And as I said, I think that Taimi being imperfect fits the writing quite well. Moving on like nothing happened whenever they might be wrong is pretty much how asuras are like, most are too arrogant to admit being wrong. But as we more recently saw, Braham had different idea, wanting to control Primordus. Or are you suggesting it was Taimi's fault that Braham made that choice? He said himself that he only did it "to save his friends". Or have I completely misinterpreted the story? Because that's what happened as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and as Kaliwenda.3428 said, I too want to thank you for making this thread. I've also started to pay more attention to the dialogue and been enjoying it a lot! :)

its good to see you are consistent because you once again neglected to actually read what I wrote. any point you made here again would be clarified if you actually did. that's strike 2, I'll give you one more try if you then still have not bothered to read what I said then I with clear consciousness entirely disregard anything you post from here on out.

 

but lets just bash your points directly.

"this is just a fantasy story" is not an excuse what so ever for lazy and or shitty writing. It's the same line of reasoning when someone claims anything for children can be as mind numbingly dumb and incoherent as possible since "its just for kids"

 

"you forget history the asura have with prim"
quiet literally said that I do NOT expect the arcane council, the literal leadership of the asuran race, to not fall for jormags crap as they have been consistently depicted as negligent or incompetent. the my beef is the writing of a character who LITERALY knows better.

And while we are at it with forgetting history: jormag literally waged war on the vigil/pact forces in bjoran marches, convincing decade long friends and companion to kill each other in cold blood, slayed hundreds if not thousands of local wild life, kodan, vigil and norn shamans, still using them as the abhorrent and fallen to continue that war, caused a civil war between the charr to ignite with them as the very reason WHY in the first place, an event that rippled further then just the map it was played out on. these are LITERALLY days old recent events. the destruction of what ever asuran civilization existed was TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS AGO. not a single asura alive today even remembers the depths of tyria personally.

regardless how much of a threat primodus is, completely down playing ANYTHING that literally just happened recently at that point in the story is just straight up dumb. and you the same thing as taimi right now AND YOU EVEN HAVE THE HINDSIGHT.

 

"I have to agree with Taimi that Primordus and his minions are the bigger threat."
is he though? if you only go with raw strength or force you have no idea how fights or battles work. raw power is nothing when its uncontrolled and merely lashing out. And as far as the story goes primordus is only capable of temporarily diversions and distractions. Jormag literally deceived several governments to be an ally aside the post civil war charr legions. they fooled the arcane council, DR in kyrta was the first to be betrayed,  slyvari also had icebrood in their subtropical jungle and lion's arch was close to being overrun by them as well after letting go there in the first place. Primordus maybe be powerful, but a foe that you are to foolish to notice is worse than that. An enemy you know and see is easier to prepare for then one hiding behind your back having the knife ready to stab you.
AND WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT WE HAVE ALREADY WEEKS AND MONTHS OF ACTIONS DONE BY JORMAG SHOWING TO TRUST HIMIS A BAD FREAKING IDEA. 4 entire episodes of it. and yes champions is only ONE episode.
 

"As she said: join forces with Jormag for now to fight Primordus together and deal with Jormag later."

this is exactly the problem. cause why would you ally with someone that you KNOW is going to back stab you? or at least should know he is going to. And we know jormag did because lake freaking doric.

if you were REALLY surprised by this "turn" of event, I'm sorry for you.

Heck the only time jormag did "help" was in brisban wildlands, and that was only ryland and that asshead merely tried to plant seeds of doubt, constantly shifting topics and goal posts to suit his narrative. So even jormag "helping" is just more deception. what a surprise.
and I'm not saying we could have ignored primordus all together. what I'm saying that taimi SHOULD NOT HAVE GIVING JORMAG ANY INTEL or at least she should have faked the Intel given to the dragon because jormag is not a mind reader and could have been fooled by it. (seriously this would be another great change if she just pretended she did and that the false information given to jormag allowed use to act in lake doric before it was to late, but Nooooooooo)

"No one was arguing that Jormag is good"

uhm yes taimi literally did. she literally even said "enemies can becomes friends" and "there is a precedence for good elder dragons" 

She may have said "we gonna deal with J later" that doesn't erase the fact she quiet literally argued that jormag might be a good guy. SHE DID ARGUE IT.

"only that he is more reasonable when Primordus is basically a beast that can't be reasoned with."

that was not even close what I or anyone with a similar view suggested.  the point is that jormag BECAUSE of his LITERALY RECENT ACTIONS is not to be trusted at all. even as an asura. and that's why blindly providing kittening data/Intel  or even entertaining the idea they might be good is DUMB, specially with 4 episodes proving it right before the "but no, we are actually allies" bullhonky.

 

"Here's some Taimi's quotes from the Metrica DRM"

which shows she entirely ignores that jormag is NOT like primodus nor that he acts like him.

here is a quote from ryland "waiting for the right moment to strike isn't hiding"

possibly the ONLY thing ryland said that had any truth to it or wasn't shifting topics of goal posts. This is HOW jormag operates. primordus goes immediately on the offensive. Jormag doesn't. And that is very dangerous. Cause if you know an enemy always resort to attacking first, then you can prepare and plan against it. an enemy waiting, planning scheming is more dangerous cause you do not know what to prepare for, sometimes the preparation is what the waiting enemy is counting on.

And further more she does blatantly show she ignores literally all event that lead up to this moment in time.

I can not stress this enough, jormag didn't just pop out of nowhere having suddenly a charr army under their belt.

they had the majority of icebrood sage causing devastation and war with mere words. and I would like like to remind you at this point that the play time one has going through episode 1-4 is not reflective of the actual time passing in the story. As living world updates go the time between the patches ARE considered in real time in the story as well. if it took 3 months between one and the next patch then 3 months have past between the start of the first and the beginning of the second one. the only time that might be not applicable 1:1 is champions itself as it is just a frankenstein monster of the actual planned story before the saga was left with a skeleton crew.

so you can have at minimum WEEKS  and maximum 2-3 months of jormag causing trouble. right before the metrica DRM. Will argue taimi might have NEVER heard about those events and the details as a Dragon's Watch MEMBER? never heard of the civil war between the charr at the door steps of the krytan kingdom? I advise you not to even entertain the thought.

 

"To conclude"

no you don't conclude anything. you didn't read what I wrote, you made up stuff that nobody suggested or claimed, you fall victim to the very same behavior as the one is criticize WHILE having hindsight as well.

The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not work because the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. that phrase only works if the "enemy of my enemy" has no stakes or interest in opposing me/us. guess what? jormag had ALL the reasons to oppose mortal life. what a coinkydink.

Even you arguing that goes against your own point (taimi :"We can deal with Jormag later")

advice: do not make arguments that bite you in the kitten later

 

" Jormag started freezing towns full of people was to balance his powers with Primordus, because he was gaining more thru the destroyers attacking and burning everything. I can't see how that is Taimi's fault either."

quiet literally taimi's fault. jormag may have vaguely known before, but they got confirmation and exact data from WHO????

MOTHER HUGGING TABLE FLIPPING TAIMI

To know that "something is happening" is one thing, to know "how much/often/strong exactly" is the very reason why armed forces act. They suggest or make educated guesses what's happening, like weapons being stored and distributed. but they only go out when they know specifics when they have evidence, cause otherwise it could end disastrous for the forces. jormag got Intel from TAIMI.

So yes taimi is at fault for Lake Doric. not her alone, not saying that but she gave vital Intel to the dragon's armies, WILLINGLY!

 

" I think that Taimi being imperfect fits the writing quite well"
never said she should be flawless. literally said this now 2 times by now but you never read what I wrote so here is literally the THRID TIME.

Taimi doing all that stuff IS NOT BAD writing IN OF ITSELF or if it STANDS ALONE.

NOT pointing fingers at her literally or metaphorically/holding her accountable for it afterward in the story IS.

The only reason I point everything out I have discussed to this point IS TO SHOW WHY she should be held accountable.
"Being/acting Dumb because reason [x]" does not absolve a character from "Wrong-doing" in a story.

Accountable does not need to mean "capital punishment", like with another faction I'm going to mention after this, full acknowledgment and a delivery fitting a guilty conscience can be enough.

(seriously I'm NOT asking for taimi to burned at the stake, what the heck)

 

"Moving on like nothing happened whenever they might be wrong is pretty much how asuras are like"

except we did see asura who DO care about those things all through out gw2 and further more this is NOT an asura only story.

"most are too arrogant to admit being wrong"

time is not your friend because even the arcane council came in, in the mostly botched final, and admitted their wrong doing. the freaking arcane council, which even in my book can get away with it to some extend, did acknowledge it. Where is taimi then? huh?

 

"Braham had different idea, wanting to control Primordus. Or are you suggesting it was Taimi's fault that Braham made that choice?"

this has literally nothing to do with taimi. there is nothing in the story suggesting brahm made any decision based on taimi. it may have been a minor detail when it was not just one split into 5 parts episode, but its certainly not here.

Nor do I even said anything in relation. Taimi handing over Intel to jormag prompting them to attack lake doric has a direct correlation. Brahms choice is entirely separate from taimi's exsistence.

In fact it sounds more like the topics change and goal post shifting I mentioned with ryland. (seriously if that is some sort of "jormag influences you" RP, kudos to you for sticking to it so consistently, otherwise...sad)

 

"have I completely misinterpreted the story?"

YES!

at least the story between brahm and taimi. you certainly did. but that doesn't mean you were right before.

Edited by ShroomOneUp.6913
typing errors, added words for clarification
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On 4/17/2021 at 4:33 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

I feel like they take the player "feedback" too seriously and even take plot ideas from the forums.The entire plot point of Braham becoming the champion of Primordus is literal forum speculation fan fiction.

lolz, i remember i made a post suggesting this, but was in a some "dark humour"(not so serious),,,, i posted even a video with evil ryu, and the braham "champiom" look is very similar too.  

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2021 at 8:05 AM, Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

whats wrong with taking plot ideas from the forums, plenty of the ideas here  suggested  and speculatd have a basis in lore and what characters can do, and there are good ideas on the forums here:D

nobody made fanfiction of brahm becoming primordus champion. dum dums just mistake people being smarter than anet and figuring their very obvious hints out and predict future story beats as fanfiction

Edited by ShroomOneUp.6913
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