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Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing?


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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races.Jormag's plans and intentions for Tyria don't matter here, though. This is about what another ED death means for the All.

I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

The balance is a lie to Jormag from Jormag's perspective.. a truth not a lie.Aurine and us though wants to maintain a balance in the world so mortals can continue to live in it._So to us the balance is a lie.. is a lie, but to Jormag it's not a lie.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation of the balance made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive. It never has been.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

When dragons die we often see their magic violently released into the world usually cracking the ground as it goes though we have not seen those actual cracks in the game world.. not on the surface.Tyria may not implode in a giant implosion but it may suffer massive natural disasters etc.. becoming a true hellscape world no mortal could survive in but Gods and Dragons could.. so this is again only an End of the World scenario for us mortals not for beings like Elder Dragons and Gods.

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@Zola.6197 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

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@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Gombie.3860" said:I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

But there's the risk of getting a "oops, we forgot" afterwards, like with Laranthir for example. (And I still want to know where he is and what he's doing there.)

Although, forgetting the entire plot of two LS seasons and an entire expac would be on a completely new level. I don't think they forgot. I think they just don't bother anymore and don't care if the characters behave logically at the present, as long as they arrive at the conclusion that is planned.

Which is even worse. I've been slowly but steadily losing interest in the story development for some time now, because of the "we don't care about our own game enough to keep it consistent (or even check the wiki)" vibe. And as the story/lore is what made me stay, I find it harder and harder to find a reason to log in. Now it's all shifting to "do more grind for more grind" and gajillions of various currencies/materials for this and that... pretty much the what I ran into when I tried Blade and Soul and what drove me off from that game. It just feels like GW2 gets more and more "NCSofted" as the time goes.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

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@Zola.6197 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

No, because you're being obtuse.

The subject of this thread isn't about meta knowledge on twitter or how accurate Taimi's simulation may have been. It's specifically about the characters' knowledge and how they are not operating according to that knowledge, and how that means the narrative team (in my opinion) are not doing their due diligence to the characters and setting. The fact that a dev posted "Jormag doesn't lie" on twitter does not account for anything happening in-universe. The Commander, Aurene, etc, are people living in the world of Tyria and have no reason to believe that "Jormag doesn't lie." And from what they have witnessed through myriad occurrences in the story they've all lived through - particularly in the personal story and Icebrood Saga - is that Jormag is dangerous, persuasive, manipulative, and wants to corrupt others in their image. They are an evil and self-serving super powered entity. "Jormag doesn't lie" sitting on twitter doesn't change those facts as the characters have experienced them. If you can't recognize that, you don't come off as someone who cares much for the story, the characters, the setting or lore in the first place.

It doesn't matter if "Jormag doesn't lie" is true - even if you're being obtuse about the fact that Jormag's "truth" has thus far been shown to consistently be perverted by their terms. It doesn't matter if "Taimi's simulation was wrong and we've been incorrect the whole time." If the writing is doing it's job, the characters have to journey to that conclusion in a way we, the audience, sees; the characters don't just throw out all their gained knowledge and experiences based on a tweet about an idea that hasn't even been properly established in universe. That's nonsense.

The things you're bringing up are only tangentially related to the aim of this thread. If you want to fuse how an out-of-game tweet saying "Jormag doesn't lie" is indicative of quality writing and good "devmanship," then by all means make that post. As of right now you just come off as someone who's been sipping that Jormag whisper juice. :P

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@Zola.6197 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

No, because you're being obtuse.

The subject of this thread isn't about meta knowledge on twitter or how accurate Taimi's simulation may have been. It's specifically about the characters' knowledge and how they are not operating according to that knowledge, and how that means the narrative team (in my opinion) are not doing their due diligence to the characters and setting. The fact that a dev posted "Jormag doesn't lie" on twitter does not account for anything happening in-universe. The Commander, Aurene, etc, are people living in the world of Tyria and have no reason to believe that "Jormag doesn't lie." And from what they have witnessed through myriad occurrences in the story they've all lived through - particularly in the personal story and Icebrood Saga - is that Jormag is dangerous, persuasive, manipulative, and wants to corrupt others in their image. They are an evil and self-serving super powered entity. "Jormag doesn't lie" sitting on twitter doesn't change those facts as the characters have experienced them. If you can't recognize that, you don't come off as someone who cares much for the story, the character, the setting or lore in the first place.

It doesn't matter if "Jormag doesn't lie" is true - even if you're being obtuse about the fact that Jormag's "truth" has thus far been shown to consistently be perverted by their terms. It doesn't matter if "Taimi's simulation was wrong and we've been incorrect the whole time." If the writing is doing it's job, the characters have to journey to that conclusion in a way we, the audience, sees; the characters don't just throw out all their gained knowledge and experiences based on a tweet about an idea that hasn't even been properly established in universe. That's nonsense.

The things you're bringing up are only tangentially related to the aim of this thread. If you want to fuse how an out-of-game tweet saying "Jormag doesn't lie" is indicative of quality writing and good "devmanship," then by all means make that post. As of right now you just come off as someone who's been sipping that Jormag whisper juice. :P

I brought up the Jormag thing because you spoke about "seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot", when Jormag actually mentions that exact plotpoint and was never ditched.I added meta-knowledge to it, because that meta-knowledge is still part of the universe and a part of Jormag. Ignoring that fact still doesn't change what is actually happening with the All.

If your aim with this thread is to just complain about narrative and not actually discuss the lore, then fine. I'm not going to answer again, as you've clearly shown you're not open to actually discuss the plotpoint about the All you've mentioned yourself in the starting post and resorted to personal attacks, such as calling me "obtuse" or "sipping that Jormag whisper juice". You should have mentioned that you don't allow any lore that you yourself don't deem to be "worthy" in this thread, even if it comes from an official source that is the Narrative Lead.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.It's definitely not depicting the events of PoF either since the world was never engulfed in fire and ruin as shown in the vison.The vision was showing what Balthazar's intentions were (killing Krlkatorrik) and the result of that action (bringing the world to ruin) I believe there is even dialogue in one mission with him where we try to warn him about what his actions would bring on the world and he just didn't care.

From everything we went through with Krlkatorrik and Balthazar I would have to disagree about not knowing or at least having a good idea of what would happen if one more elder died.All the evidence we have suggests the world would be severely damaged and would likely be uninhabitable for mortals.. and if both of them die it would be far worse.

Jormag's words simply cannot be trusted because of everything we know about it, it always has it's own agenda and everything it does and says is to further that agenda.It does not care about mortals, and the only reason it tried to appear like it did is because Aurine cares about mortals.Jormag sees us specifically as both a hinderance and a tool to be used to get to Aurine, that's the only reason it doesn't hunt us down and exterminate us which it has more than enough power to do.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.It's definitely not depicting the events of PoF either since the world was never engulfed in fire and ruin as shown in the vison.The vision was showing what Balthazar's intentions were (killing Krlkatorrik) and the result of that action (bringing the world to ruin) I believe there is even dialogue in one mission with him where we try to warn him about what his actions would bring on the world and he just didn't care.

But Kralkatorrik is even more massive the the dragon in the vision. There were also plenty of places in fire in the Crystal Oasis, and the destroyed pyramid looks similiar to the one in Maculate Fringe. I'm pretty sure that vision is about things that already happened, not things that would have happened.The dialoge in that one mission was more related to the killing of any EDs, after the simulation with Jormag and Primordus. Since that's what our ingame character believes, that killing more EDs will result in the destruction of Tyria.

From everything we went through with Krlkatorrik and Balthazar I would have to disagree about not knowing or at least having a good idea of what would happen if one more elder died.All the evidence we have suggests the world would be severely damaged and would likely be uninhabitable for mortals.. and if both of them die it would be far worse.

There isn't actualy much evidence aside from an overflow of magic that suggests the world would fall to ruin. Most of the Tyria-warping damage was done by Kralkatorrik when he started to enter the Mists and consume without holding back.

Jormag's words simply cannot be trusted because of everything we know about it, it always has it's own agenda and everything it does and says is to further that agenda.It does not care about mortals, and the only reason it tried to appear like it did is because Aurine cares about mortals.Jormag sees us specifically as both a hinderance and a tool to be used to get to Aurine, that's the only reason it doesn't hunt us down and exterminate us which it has more than enough power to do.

Like mentioned before, I agree with this part. Especially so if we take on the role of the commander. But we still have to consider things that we learn about the lore, even if we don't see them through the commander's eyes.

Nonetheless, this will also be my last answer to you, since OP doesn't seem to like it very much to discuss lore that isn't directly referenced in-game.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

You keep saying this like it's some in-universe fact the characters understand. Do you think The Commander and Aurene have a twitter account?

The problem is the characters are not functioning like characters in a story, let alone like characters who were told by one of their greatest enemies the thing they were doing to save everyone was unnecessary. What incentive do they have to accept Jormag's assertions, let alone know for certain their enemy always tells the (warped and manipulated) truth? Not to mention that Guild Wars 2 often leans on concepts like the unreliable narrator.

And how many times in the past have dev statements and interviews been invalided or contradicted by the game as times passes? Quite a bit. There are even recent statements that say the only thing that's truly canon is what is presented in game; everything else can be taken or left by the current devs. So one tweet doesn't amount to much, frankly.

This is bad writing, or at least lazy writing. This is not how you write a consistent and compelling fantasy story and world. Addressing the "debunking" of the balance should've been a priority for the characters in-universe, but instead it's ignored to a nonsensical degree.

What the commander or Aurene know doesn‘t matter in this case.I‘m also not arguing about how people in the story should act, like stated previously.

I‘m only arguing about the All and how the mortal simulation is wrong based on the fact that a Narrative Lead gave more information about Jormags being, a person that isn‘t an unreliable narrator.

As long as no one from Anet states something else about Jormag to retcon, it is canon that Jormag doesn‘t lie. Anything else would be making up your own story due to lazy listening/reading.

I‘ve kept saying that we know this because we are players and therefore have more knowledge about the Guild Wars world.

You're coming off about as nonsensical as the characters right now lol.

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

No, because you're being obtuse.

The subject of this thread isn't about meta knowledge on twitter or how accurate Taimi's simulation may have been. It's specifically about the characters' knowledge and how they are not operating according to that knowledge, and how that means the narrative team (in my opinion) are not doing their due diligence to the characters and setting. The fact that a dev posted "Jormag doesn't lie" on twitter does not account for anything happening in-universe. The Commander, Aurene, etc, are people living in the world of Tyria and have no reason to believe that "Jormag doesn't lie." And from what they have witnessed through myriad occurrences in the story they've all lived through - particularly in the personal story and Icebrood Saga - is that Jormag is dangerous, persuasive, manipulative, and wants to corrupt others in their image. They are an evil and self-serving super powered entity. "Jormag doesn't lie" sitting on twitter doesn't change those facts as the characters have experienced them. If you can't recognize that, you don't come off as someone who cares much for the story, the character, the setting or lore in the first place.

It doesn't matter if "Jormag doesn't lie" is true - even if you're being obtuse about the fact that Jormag's "truth" has thus far been shown to consistently be perverted by their terms. It doesn't matter if "Taimi's simulation was wrong and we've been incorrect the whole time." If the writing is doing it's job, the characters have to journey to that conclusion in a way we, the audience, sees; the characters don't just throw out all their gained knowledge and experiences based on a tweet about an idea that hasn't even been properly established in universe. That's nonsense.

The things you're bringing up are only tangentially related to the aim of this thread. If you want to fuse how an out-of-game tweet saying "Jormag doesn't lie" is indicative of quality writing and good "devmanship," then by all means make that post. As of right now you just come off as someone who's been sipping that Jormag whisper juice. :P

I brought up the Jormag thing because you spoke about "seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot", when Jormag actually mentions that exact plotpoint and was never ditched.I added meta-knowledge to it, because that meta-knowledge is still part of the universe and a part of Jormag. Ignoring that fact still doesn't change what is actually happening with the All.

If your aim with this thread is to just complain about narrative and not actually discuss the lore, then fine. I'm not going to answer again, as you've clearly shown you're not open to actually discuss the plotpoint about the All you've mentioned yourself in the starting post and resorted to personal attacks, such as calling me "obtuse" or "sipping that Jormag whisper juice". You should have mentioned that you don't allow any lore that you yourself don't deem to be "worthy" in this thread, even if it comes from an official source that is the Narrative Lead.

One line from Jormag is the not the "due diligence" to throw away several years of plot build up. It makes no sense for narratively for that to be the fulcrum on which the entire franchise shifts.

But I can see that you have no interest in actual logical storytelling, so I am likewise going the "do not interact" route.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.

I'm aware that what Jormag wants to preserve isn't our Tyria and that it doesn't care about the mortal races. I'm also aware that Jormag wants Primordus to die, so that it can take over.This however still means that Tyria isn't destroyed with the death of Primordus. This directly contradicts the "No more dragons are allowed to die"-narrative that has been established due to the simulations in Rata Novus.

So if what Jormag is saying is the truth (since Jormag never lies), Tyria will continue to exist, even if Primordus is dead. So it is quite true.

But in what form and to whom is the question.

Jormag may survive another dragon death and freeze the world in an endless icy tomb but to us mortals that isn't saving Tyria, that's destroying it.Jormag can probably live in that sort of world where we mortals cannot, so from Jormag's perspective that's not destroying the world but from ours it is because Jormag's world would be just as much of a lifeless graveyard as Primordus burning wasteland would be.

So yeah Jormag isn't lying technically but it is twisting the truth to serve it's own agenda.. for us to help Jormag would be to contribute to our own destruction.. so to us Jormag is lying but it also isn't lying from it's own perspective.

If mortals are able to still survive on Tyria is completely unrelated to what happens to the All, though.If another death doesn't upset the All like the asuran simulation claimed, Jormag isn't lying about the balance being a mortal superstition.

Every Elder Dragon death upsets the All.. this we at least do know is true.

The scale of the damage done to Tyria upon these deaths is what we're talking about, what is world ending to us may not be to the remaining dragons.The Balance being a mortal superstition is because for us Mortals we don't want to create a world where we can't survive in it.It's Jormag's way of saying the world will go on without mortals even if it is severely damaged by another Dragon death, because Jormag doesn't care if Primordus death ends all mortal life on Tyria.

Except the simulation made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive.

Reference:

Yea but keep in mind that's an artificial simulation not an accurate representation of what may specifically happen to the world.

That‘s the point. The simulation the player character, Taimi and the others take for the truth is wrong.

Literally maybe but what it represents not so much.

The All is already unbalanced due to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we know it can't take another death as we saw through the vision the Eye of Janthir showed us.Kralkatorriks death at Balthazar's hands ended the world for us in that vision, the video I linked.

The only reason this didn't happen was because we stopped Balthazar and then killed Kralkatorrik when Aurine was ready to replace him.

This still leaves us in the same situation, one more dead dragon without a replacement and the world goes to hell for us.

The thing you're overlooking as well is that the simulation you're talking about involved the deaths of 2 Dragons, not just one of them.So I could also say 1 more dragon death = planet hell.. 2 more dragon deaths = planet go boom lol

Is it even Kralkatorrik's death in that video/vision of the Eye of Janthir? I've always thought that to be Vlast. Looks more similiar to Vlast, too. I don't think the vision is the end of the world, but things that actually happened in PoF.

I'm not actually overlooking the two dragons thing in the simulation. The simulation quite clearly shows that Jormag and Primordus have to clash. We don't know what will happen if one more ED dies, that's the point why we're having this discussion right now. And why Jormag says that the balance is wrong because the way we look at the All is a mortal misconception.

Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.

Taimi simulation shows the outcome of if two dragons die, which means explosion.

There is even the conversation with Ogden.

Ogden Stonehealer: There are varied theories on what it means, but I believe it refers to the natural balance of magic.Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

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@Raknar.4735 You might have misunderstood the thread. It's totally possible to make the current story lore-friendly. There are options to make everything fit, to make the balance a non-issue in LS5 without ret-conning. Actually, I think the entire LS5 actually has a great plot. It's just delivered in such a rushed manner that it's hard to appreciate it and in cases like the current chapter, the delivery seems to create really awful side-effects. Take the same story and let it play out in a real saga, like it was maybe planned originally, and we might not have to have this argument.

However, this discussion is about storytelling, not about the All. And I think this might be why the thread was originally not created in the lore forums? I'm pretty sure it was moved here later on.

@anninke.7469 Same. If it weren't also for the social aspect, I'd be mostly here for the story and lore (and I'm also a bit salty about Laranthir being forgotten). The story has had its ups and downs over time, but this carelessness right now from the devs is really concerning. I hope EoD will even be able to fix some of this mess. I hope it's not too late already.

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Yes, I originally posted this in the Living World subforum to specifically discuss the storytelling aspects of Chapter 3: Balance. For whatever reason the mods decided to move it to the Lore subforum.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:Except the simulation of the balance made it look like Tyria implodes. That's pretty much world ending for everything. This isn't about if mortals can continue to survive. It never has been.

Reference:

I would like to remind everyone that the input of this simulation was quite literally: what happens if we use omadd's device to force Primordus and Jormag "together" on the level of eternal alchemy (The All?) so their energies just cancel each other out.

And myself I am still not sure why literally everyone jumped the train of "this means we can't kill more EDs" (I suppose taimi said so, and commander followed?)

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:The need for multiple Elder Dragon replacements was only necessary because we were working within the ideals of the system as it was, which needed 6 Elder Dragons to control the magic. Aurene fundamentally changed the system with her unique abilities.

Something which is never actually brought up in the story, let alone confirmed. Even if Aurene can handle different types of magic, that doesn't account for quantity or more importantly, the stability of The All itself which is more than merely magic.

Besides that, the other Elder Dragons were fully capable of housing the other ED's magic, they were just harmed by it via Torment - and while Aurene can handle conflicting magic to an extent, in the Guild Chat following War Eternal, Tom Abernathy established that Aurene could suffer from Torment if she isn't careful - and replacing all six Elder Dragons alone would certainly be "not being careful"..

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