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Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing?


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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

Because Jormag doesn't lie.

It should be noted that Jormag doesn't say Balance doesn't exist. In fact, in the recent release, Jormag talks about balance as if it is indeed a thing:

Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

Fantasies and superstitions can still turn out true, if only to a degree.

Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.Jormag: The balance will kill us all!https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag%27s_Madness

Here, Jormag seems to speak of balance as an actual thing, and outright hates it and wants to destroy it (by destroying Primordus).

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.Aurene is part of that whole simulation too, and knows far more about the function of Tyria than the Commander does, and still goes on about balance.

I'm less inclined to trust the words of a being of pure manipulation, who's own words seem conflicting. Jormag may not lie, but they also tell incomplete truths.

@Teratus.2859 said:Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.The vision by the Eye of Janthir is showing Vlast. Kralkatorrik is nowhere near that small, nor that gold/yellow, and Balthazar was going after Vlast first so as to take down Kralkatorrik. The breaking of the world was more a dramaticizing of Balthazar's actions in the desert while going after Kralkatorrik. Also pretty sure devs confirmed it to be Vlast.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.Balthazar was never after the spear. That was simply the Commander and co's misinterpretation from Vlast's fears. There were hints of the Warbeast's creation on our way to Glint's Lair, which foreshadowed the true purpose of going after Vlast.

Unless that cinematic is another case of "the plot changed a lot between drawing board/LW development and release" like with HoT and the in-game cinematic reflecting next to nothing of the main HoT plot (like pre-corruption evil Faolain).

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The writers missed an opportunity with Vlast, they should have never killed him off. I don't think Aurene itself is enough to contain all the magic released by the death of the other elder dragons and if she ends up being corrupted by torment Tyria would be doomed. It's inevitable, for the good progression of the lore, for Aurene to give birth to her off springs . All this burden about containment of magic shouldn't weight entirely on her shoulders alone.

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Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

Because Jormag doesn't lie.

It should be noted that Jormag doesn't say Balance doesn't exist. In fact, in the recent release, Jormag talks about balance as if it is indeed a thing:

Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.

Fantasies and superstitions can still turn out true, if only to a degree.

Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.Jormag: The balance will kill us all!

Here, Jormag seems to speak of balance as an actual thing, and outright hates it and wants to destroy it (by destroying Primordus).

@Raknar.4735 said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.Aurene is part of that whole simulation too, and knows far more about the function of Tyria than the Commander does, and still goes on about balance.

I'm less inclined to trust the words of a being of pure manipulation, who's own words seem conflicting. Jormag may not lie, but they also tell incomplete truths.

@Teratus.2859 said:Vlast was nowhere near that big and the Dragon roars were the same as Kralkatorriks, it's definitely Kralk in the vision.The vision by the Eye of Janthir is showing Vlast. Kralkatorrik is nowhere near that small, nor that gold/yellow, and Balthazar was going after Vlast first so as to take down Kralkatorrik. The breaking of the world was more a dramaticizing of Balthazar's actions in the desert while going after Kralkatorrik. Also pretty sure devs confirmed it to be Vlast.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Couple things. The Vision shows that the world ending when Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with the dragon spear. The world begins to unravel etc. That’s after a single dragon’s death.Balthazar was never after the spear. That was simply the Commander and co's misinterpretation from Vlast's fears. There were hints of the Warbeast's creation on our way to Glint's Lair, which foreshadowed the true purpose of going after Vlast.

Unless that cinematic is another case of "the plot changed a
lot
between drawing board/LW development and release" like with HoT and the in-game cinematic reflecting next to nothing of the main HoT plot (like pre-corruption evil Faolain).

I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.

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@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

I think the better way to describe Jormag is that she does not lie but she never tells the full truth.

For example, Jormag maybe saying killing Primordus or herself may not be a issue for the world but that is probably within the perspective that it is not a issue for her and Aurene since as Elder Dragons they may not suffer the effects of the world falling into chaos due to overload of magic energy while the other races will.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.I get that. I was saying that unless Balthazar's plans and actions got rewritten, there's obvious hints of the warbeast pretty early on in PoF. Forged were pretty much right outside Glint's Lair, if they wanted in they probably would have been working on that instead of mining branded crystals to create the warbeast tail we see in that very instance. In fact, forgot about this but in Night of Fires is when we get our very first hints of the warbeast with the Forged Cart holding branded crystals and the Forged Plate being a small piece of the warbeast, both found in the southern camp in the open world section.

So Balthazar was never planning on using the spear, either on Valst or Kralkatorrik. The vision is either a red herring, or it's instead depicting Vlast's capture before being put into the warbeast, or it's just foreshadowing Vlast's sacrifice to save the PC.

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.Comparing Jormag to a human is a rather silly thing that you're doing, tbh, since Jormag is an eldritch being who's mind is connected to the cosmos.

Fiction usually depicts such beings as never-liars, and is in fact a bit of a archtypal trait for such characters to make them "More Than Human".

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@Raknar.4735 said:

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

You're treating the "Jormag doesn't lie" statement as if it covers a wider range of cases than it needs to. It comes down to what we consider "lying", which Tom Abernathy (probably intentionally) failed to discuss.

I think it's pretty clear from the rest of that tweet that when he says "Jormag doesn't lie" it's the equivalent of "Jormag does not intentionally tell us things that Jormag personally does not believe to be true as well."

As the tweet says. Jormag is always sincere. That dosen't mean Jormag is always correct. You, @Raknar.4735, are consistently speaking as though Jormag's honesty always guarantees Jormag's correctness, and frankly it's getting hard to watch at this point.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.Comparing Jormag to a human is a rather silly thing that you're doing, tbh, since Jormag is an eldritch being who's mind is connected to the cosmos.

Fiction usually depicts such beings as never-liars, and is in fact a bit of a archtypal trait for such characters to make them "More Than Human".

Not from what I've observed, so called "higher beings" in fiction don't seem any less likely to lie than humans are, examples being Loki (both IRL myth and Marvel's) and Sauron and Saruman.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I was basing the dragon spear strictly on the cinematic itself, which shows the dragon being stabbed, which would indicate the dragon spear being used, which perhaps was the original intention.I get that. I was saying that unless Balthazar's plans and actions got rewritten, there's obvious hints of the warbeast pretty early on in PoF. Forged were pretty much right outside Glint's Lair, if they wanted in they probably would have been working on that instead of mining branded crystals to create the warbeast tail we see in that very instance. In fact, forgot about this but in
is when we get our very first hints of the warbeast with the Forged Cart holding branded crystals and the Forged Plate being a small piece of the warbeast, both found in the southern camp in the open world section.

So Balthazar was never planning on using the spear, either on Valst or Kralkatorrik. The vision is either a red herring, or it's instead depicting Vlast's capture before being put into the warbeast, or it's just foreshadowing Vlast's sacrifice to save the PC.

I guess it depends on when the cinematic was made and the story was rewritten like you said.

Though, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the dragon depicted to be Vlast, as it shows the world starting to break apart once the dragon dies which was reused to show the unbalance in the cinematic about dragon replacements in Kesho

Judging strictly by what the visions shows it seems Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik, with some sort of spear like object, the world starts to slowly break apart (unlike when Primordus and Jormag died, showing the planet blow up) follow by it raining fire and flame lightning. I don’t think this is depicting Vlast, and if you can find the dev reference about it being Vlast, I would be curious to see it too.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:

Because I don't ignore the statement of a Narrative Director? Ok then.

You're treating the "Jormag doesn't lie" statement as if it covers a wider range of cases than it needs to. It comes down to what we consider "lying", which Tom Abernathy (probably intentionally) failed to discuss.

I think it's pretty clear from the rest of
that when he says "Jormag doesn't lie" it's the equivalent of "Jormag does not intentionally tell us things that Jormag personally does not believe to be true as well."

As the tweet says. Jormag is always
sincere
. That dosen't mean Jormag is always
correct
. You, @"Raknar.4735", are consistently speaking as though Jormag's honesty always guarantees Jormag's correctness, and frankly it's getting hard to watch at this point.

In this case, it would mean Jormag made something up, which is still lying. Pretending to know something and stating something factually wrong, which Jormag would have done if we go by "correctness" is still an act of lying.I'm also not speaking as if Jormag is always correct. Just that Jormag doesn't lie and we therefore can still get valuable information out of its words. It's actually pretty sad to see people discredit anything Jormag said simply because Jormag has evil/self-serving intentions.

Also, this discussion about Jormag is still off-topic according to OP, since this topic isn't about Jormag, but how the PC and the other NPC's act (or don't act). You could have just PM'd instead of making another anwer that delves further off-topic.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 I don't think the balance Jormag is talking about in Jormag's Madness is directly about the balance of the All. It seems more to be about a balance of power between Jormag and Primordus specifically. Jormag is trying to shift the balance on its side by freezing the world to prepare for Primordus, on the other side Primordus is using the feedback loop to finally awaken and power up. To achieve a balance in power, both Jormag and Primordus need to stop what they're currently doing.

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@Raknar.4735 said:@"Konig Des Todes.2086" I don't think the balance Jormag is talking about in Jormag's Madness is directly about the balance of the All. It seems more to be about a balance of power between Jormag and Primordus specifically. Jormag is trying to shift the balance on its side by freezing the world to prepare for Primordus, on the other side Primordus is using the feedback loop to finally awaken and power up. To achieve a balance in power, both Jormag and Primordus need to stop what they're currently doing.

It's hard to say, but to me there seems to be two separate "balances" being talked about throughout Champions, and especially in this instance:

Jormag: What choice, then, do I have but to shift the balance of power by whatever means I can?

This line refers to the power levels of Primordus and Jormag. Hence "balance of power".

Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!Aurene: Th-the balance is needed.Jormag: The balance will kill us all!

This, "Aurene's balance", is reflecting the balance of Elder Dragons and the All on a whole, which was brought up in conversations between Jormag and Aurene before:

Aurene: That's not my role. The balance can still be maintained.Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

Aurene: I won't need to. There can be no balance if I get involved. Trust me, Champion. There will be another way.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Roaring_Flames#Open_world

In context, it wouldn't make much sense for the balance between Primordus and Jormag to be mortal superstition, or for it to break if Aurene got involved, or for it to "kill us all".

Or maybe it's all referring to the same balance, as given the context and wording, it doesn't seem likely that Jormag's statement of "the balance is a fantasy" reflects something other than "the balance will kill us all". Both are talking about the balance of Elder Dragons, sometimes just specifically Jormag and Primordus.

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Well when Jormag says "The Balance will kill us all" I'm going to assume "us all" is referring specifically to them and the other elder dragons, since it's pretty obvious they view anything else as a lesser being.

In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

So perhaps there's something about the "balance" that inherently makes them go mad, which is what Jormag is referring to by it killing them all?

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" Yeah, that's pretty much how I understood it.There's currently two balances being talked about in the conversations between Jormag and Aurene.

The balance of the All is the one Aurene wants to maintain / Aurene's balance / the one Jormag claims is just mortal superstition.Then there's the balance of power between Jormag and Primordus, the one Jormag wants to shift in its favour.(Both balances are connected and influence each other)

The problem here is that the "balance of the All" Aurene wants to maintain only works if both Primordus and Jormag play fair. And Jormag doesn't seem to think that Primordus can play fair. So adhering to Aurene's balance and stopping from freezing the world would mean Primordus wins in the "balance of power" and will end up destroying everything.It's probably similiar to a Cold War situation in Jormag's mind, if one power stops increasing, the other one will overpower everything.

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@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

It's one of those things writers do when they want to write a mystery novel.They set up rules for the story to follow.But in order to do this, mystery writers do not do randomly add 5 or 6 new expositions or surprise appearances, because that will destroy the narrative.

Problem is, this isn't a mystery novel, and things are being added all the time because it is an evolving story.Setting "rules" like this is just cornering the writers, and yu can see how the story is becoming more and more messy with each chapter.The general feel I get from all the Champions chapters is : "this is how it is, because it is how it is. Don't question it"

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Posting IRL that "Jormag Doesn't Lie" was probably one of the stupidest thing this current iteration of Arenanet has done, at least in my opinion, and exceeded perhaps only by the decision to actually make "Jormag Doesn't Lie" an actual aspect of canon. Everyone lies, mortal or not, so what makes Jormag so special that this doesn't apply to it? What about its nature physically prevents Jormag from telling a lie or what about its..."saintly" personality causes it to just find lying unthinkable? WHY IS THIS A THING?! Such terrible writing.

It's one of those things writers do when they want to write a mystery novel.They set up rules for the story to follow.But in order to do this, mystery writers do not do randomly add 5 or 6 new expositions or surprise appearances, because that will destroy the narrative.

Problem is, this isn't a mystery novel, and things are being added all the time because it is an evolving story.Setting "rules" like this is just cornering the writers, and yu can see how the story is becoming more and more messy with each chapter.The general feel I get from all the Champions chapters is : "this is how it is, because it is how it is. Don't question it"

Dammed if thats not the truth, the last part especially. I would really like it if at least a couple franchises that I really liked don't end up as insulting trash.

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I'd just like to point out that "Jormag doesn't lie" DOES NOT equal "Jormag doesn't tell untruths". AFAIK, "to lie" means that one intentionally tells things they KNOW to be untrue to decieve others. Telling things that are not true but you see them as such is not lying.

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@Bast.7253 said:In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Bast.7253 said:In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

I rewatched the guild chat and I'm not seeing any confirmation about it being ley-line magic that began the process?

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Bast.7253 said:In the guild chat after War Eternal I feel like I remember them alluding to the fact that Kralk was going mad long before he absorbed the conflicting magics. That it began before that and was just expedited or worsened.

To clarify, it was long before the death of Zhaitan. But it was still conflicting magic, simply from the ley-lines that contains all magic. For whatever reason, Kralkatorrik stopped filtering the magic he consumed (or was never capable of such). Likely the same for other Elder Dragons, which we never see filtering out ley-line magic.

I rewatched the guild chat and I'm not seeing any confirmation about it being ley-line magic that began the process?

They don't specify ley-lines, but that they've been consuming conflicting magic for eons, that the Torment is eons old.

The only mixing of magic there is would be ley-lines, unless they invent something new. And we know they consume directly from the ley-lines already.

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One thing missing in this converstion is that End of Dragons plays in Cantha. There, traditionally, dragons have been viewed differently and not just as pure evil. I'll be also tapping into asian lore as that has been the base for Canthan lore.They see balance as a balance between good and bad. The jingjang sing is an important figure here. Both are intertwined and part of that balance.

I think that the nature and function of the balance and the cycle will be told as part of the story.

Someone who always experience positive happy things, will start taking them for granted. They get spoiled and will not recognised how blessed they are. The negative is needed to balance this and make us appreciate the positive. As a matter affect, the deeper the low, the higher the high will be.

The fact that EoD plays in Cantha means to me that this will be an important part of the plot in the end. We have done a lot of good in the world, but we need bad to have balance and be reminded how good life is.

The main question imo is if it is a good idea to finish all bad elder dragons and replace them with good entities.

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We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation. Even the best writing team with total control of the story's delivery would struggle to make good on this claim. Further, the definition of lying is complex and manipulators use pedantry as cover. The audience needed to interrogate Jormag's complex personality on their own and the studio's comments stepped on our ability to do so.

I have been looking forward to the transition from the Six Sphere All balance and I could not make it through this last episode. It reads as though it were written by a writing team willing to step on their audience's interrogation. This is a flimsy transition powered by writer's authority.

Repeatedly, we have been warned about the risk posed by combat between cosmic scaled beings and yet that is now our plan. Fuck the civilians I guess. Perhaps everyone involved knows something will come up but is under an NDA.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation.

I'd like to toss onto that stack with a mention that before the statement was made Jormag did lie on screen.

During Drakkar meta in Bjora Marches, Jorgams state, that Jhavi is Lying and Drakkar is trying to help Kodan and Norn. Unless Your definition of "helping" is killing every single one of them, yeah sure dude it wants to "help" ;)

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:We often complain about the lack of communication from the writing team but the studio's comment is a perfect example of why writers should usually keep quiet, at least until the text is complete. Imo, they should have known better. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Manipulation.

I'd like to toss onto that stack with a mention that before the statement was made Jormag
did
lie on screen.

During Drakkar meta in Bjora Marches, Jorgams state, that Jhavi is Lying and Drakkar is trying to help Kodan and Norn. Unless Your definition of "helping" is killing every single one of them, yeah sure dude it wants to "help" ;)

The thing about telling lies is that there's this problem of perpective. You'd be correct if it was "Jormag is never wrong", but "Jormag never lies" means that they can say something incorrect but believe it to be true so from their point of view, it is truth and not a lie.

From Jormag's point of view, corrupting and freezing the world is helping the mortals. So the statement is "technically false, but perceptively true".

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@Raknar.4735 said:@"Konig Des Todes.2086" Yeah, that's pretty much how I understood it.There's currently two balances being talked about in the conversations between Jormag and Aurene.

The balance of the All is the one Aurene wants to maintain / Aurene's balance / the one Jormag claims is just mortal superstition.Then there's the balance of power between Jormag and Primordus, the one Jormag wants to shift in its favour.(Both balances are connected and influence each other)

The problem here is that the "balance of the All" Aurene wants to maintain only works if both Primordus and Jormag play fair. And Jormag doesn't seem to think that Primordus can play fair. So adhering to Aurene's balance and stopping from freezing the world would mean Primordus wins in the "balance of power" and will end up destroying everything.It's probably similiar to a Cold War situation in Jormag's mind, if one power stops increasing, the other one will overpower everything.

Primordus does seem to be an oddity.. specially now that they've confirmed he is more on the mindless raw destruction side as some of us have suspected for a long time.All the other Dragons we've encountered have been intelligent and driven by some kind of agenda or madness in Kralks case but not Primordus, he seems purely instinctive and primal.Burn world become stronger sort of thing.. I wonder if he even has a level of sentience that could be considered intelligent or if he really is nothing more than an animal.

I'm curious about the previous encounter Primordus and Jormag had during the last awakening.. why did that even happen? ED's usually avoid each others territory for the most part and don't seek each other out to fight.

I don't think that's been explained at all in game and all we know about that is that Jormag got it's tail kicked pretty badly.But we do know that Jormag seems hell bent on killing it's brother.. and this is the first time in the story where we've had a situation where one Elder Dragon is actively trying to eliminate another.I wonder if Jormag's motives there are revenge for the previous fight that almost cost it it's life or if it's more to do with Jormag's recent angry comments about being bound to something like Primordus forever.If it's the latter then i'd be inclined to believe that it was probably Jormag who started their fight in the first place, attempting to rid itself of Primordus once and for all.

What is curious though is Jormag's outburst in the last "talk" we had with it.. it got blatantly angry and genuinely seems afraid of Primordus, afraid to confront it again and afraid that it could die if that scenario comes to pass.

I found that a little funny since back in season 4 we had this statement from another Elder Dragon.Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon.Kralkatorrik: Not even death.Kralk specifically said Elder Dragon.. not referring just to himself which kinda makes it a bit odd that Jormag another Elder Dragon does appear to be showing signs of strong fear.. at least enough for it to break it's calm and "friendly" demeanor and become blatantly angry and aggressive.

I'm not sure if that's a relevant thing or something the writers forgot about but it's amusing none the less.But looking back on the others.. I wouldn't say any of them showed signs of fear.. anger yes but not fear.Jormag does appear to be the first Elder Dragon to show fear which I guess makes both Jormag and Primordus unique among Elder Dragons.. both oddities.If it is relevant, perhaps it means that something has changed with them since 3 others have died.. more going on that we're not being let in on yet.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Primordus does seem to be an oddity.. specially now that they've confirmed he is more on the mindless raw destruction side as some of us have suspected for a long time.All the other Dragons we've encountered have been intelligent and driven by some kind of agenda or madness in Kralks case but not Primordus, he seems purely instinctive and primal.Burn world become stronger sort of thing.. I wonder if he even has a level of sentience that could be considered intelligent or if he really is nothing more than an animal.Honestly, destroyers having clearly specified targets and not simply attacking until death always implied there was some intelligence behind Primordus. I always figured Primordus would be the least intelligent due to the whole 'dragons know what their minions know' rule, and since Primordus doesn't corrupt the living that would mean the other Elder Dragons would gain knowledge by corrupting, whereas Primordus wouldn't. But "least intelligent" is still a far cry from "not a spark in his head".

I'm curious about the previous encounter Primordus and Jormag had during the last awakening.. why did that even happen? ED's usually avoid each others territory for the most part and don't seek each other out to fight.

I don't think that's been explained at all in game and all we know about that is that Jormag got it's tail kicked pretty badly.All we know is that Jormag was injured, not necessarily that it lost. Which since Jormag slept quite a distance from that area, while Primordus wasn't too far off in comparison, Jormag losing would be a most likely scenario.

and this is the first time in the story where we've had a situation where one Elder Dragon is actively trying to eliminate another.While it's the first time we see two Elder Dragons in direct conflict, we have seen both Primordus and Mordremoth go after Kralkatorrik's children, with the former seeking their death (unclear for Mordremoth's intentions with the egg). And arguably, Zhaitan did go after a "sapling of Mordremoth" (the Pale Tree).

I'm not sure if that's a relevant thing or something the writers forgot about but it's amusing none the less.But looking back on the others.. I wouldn't say any of them showed signs of fear.. anger yes but not fear.Honestly, I'd be inclined to think it's something the writers forgot. Aurene seems to show fear too, fear of becoming like Kralkatorrik, in her earlier talks with Jormag, which Jormag even calls out:

Voice of Jormag: Your fear and focus are misplaced. I am not driven to madness and mindless rampage like your grandfather.

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